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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Shipping (Spencer W Thomas)
  separation anxiety (BShotola)
  Mead across borders (bmurray)
  RIMS Inventor Available for Questions (David Sweeney)
  double crop hops&bugs ("Joseph Marsh")
  Stir Plate for Yeast Starter (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  Negro Modelo Clone ("Charles R. Stewart")
  Draft tower setup on chest freezer. (Stephen.F.Higdon)
  Re: Winter Welcome Ale (Smith Asylum)
  Re: Krausening (Hubert Hanghofer)
  dishwasher-free sanitizing ("Richard B. Dulany Jr.")
  Re: pH measurements (Hubert Hanghofer)
  Boiling Pot/Liquor Tank & Brewing with Plums ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  King Cooker ("Brian M Dotlich")


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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:14:12 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Shipping 

That reminds me of a story... :-)

A few years back, I had occasion to ship a bunch of engraved glasses
cross-country.  These were 20oz "no-nick" English pub-style glasses.
Needless to say, I didn't want them to get broken in shipment (via
USPS for the most part.)

So, I bought a bunch of 8 x 8 x 8 inch boxes, an equal number of 12 x
12 x 12 inch boxes, a roll of self-adhesive bubble wrap (12" width),
and a few big bags of styrofoam "peanuts".

Each glass was wrapped in a piece of bubble wrap (about 2-3 layers
thick). Four glasses fit snugly into an 8" box, which I sealed. Then I
poured a 2" layer of "peanuts" into a 12" box, put the 8" box in, and
poured "peanuts" to fill the 12" box. I sealed and addressed the 12"
box.

Out of about 100 glasses shipped, one broke.  The packaging cost
almost as much as the shipping, though.

=Spencer


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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 04:37:23 EDT
From: BShotola at aol.com
Subject: separation anxiety

Hello brewers,

Gunnar from Montana writes: "I examined the other plants, and found that 
Cascade and Hallertau also have switched sexes and are now sporting male 
flowers! "

Gunnar, this situation is uncommon in Montana, much more likely in the Bay 
Area, but I hate to say you seem to have somehow acquired some of those new 
Jim Jeffords hops. They switch over when the weather gets rough. Or maybe you 
have some of those Barney Franks- high bitterness, no taste, floral aroma.

Steve A, in terms of the lower pH reading in your half empty Cornelius, 
perhaps you let a teardrop of happiness fall into the tank, thankful that 
your results supported your hypothesis :)

Not one to have a fancy pH gizmo yet, I am just trying to keep from dropping 
the dang test strips into the mash, and other such blunders. Seems like each 
brew session offers a new way to humble myself. I don't need a beer flag 
flying outside my house, the neighbors know I am brewing when they see 
boil-over smoke roll down the hill, or my wife running.

Usually I use whole flowers in my worts, so when I used some pellet hops in 
my last brew, I absent mindedly siphoned lots of green powder into the 
carboy. (My kids have a knack for bringing the dog around to see what daddy's 
doing just as the wort's cool enough for the infections to kick in.)

I am relaxed and not worrying about the fermentation which is going strong 
thanks to a beautiful, huge pitch, but am now wondering how to best recover 
the yeast from the primary without getting too much pellet hop gook with it. 
Anybody give me a heads up on this? Thanks.

Bob Shotola
Yamhill Oregon

PS. I will be passing through Albuquerque and Santa Fe next month and would 
like any tips on where to get cervezas buenas. 



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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:23:38 -0500
From: bmurray <bmurray at merr.com>
Subject: Mead across borders


Traveling from northern Wisconsin to Maine via Canada and wish to carry
along a twelve pack of mead as a gift to friends... question: am I going
to have trouble getting this across any borders? Will I be better off
mailing it?



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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:10:47 -0500
From: David Sweeney <david at abacus-consultants.com>
Subject: RIMS Inventor Available for Questions

Greetings fellow brewers!

In the spirit of Jethro Gump, I have obtained a direct line of
communication with the inventor of the RIMS, Rodney Morris.  For you
newbies out there, RIMS stands for Recirculating Infusion Mash System.
A RIMS circulates wort, during the mash, over a (traditionally
electrical) heating element which is controlled by an inline temperature
controller, and then returned to the grain bed.  The idea behind RIMS is
to create a "hassle free" mash with a high degree (no pun intended) of
temperature control, greater extraction, and clearer runoff.

Rodney first published an article on RIMS in Zymurgy sometime in 1989
(88?).  I don't know the exact issue.  The earliest reference to RIMS in
the HBD was in March, 1990. Since that time, many brewers have made
their own RIMS inlcluding me.

Last Sunday, my brewclub held our monthly brewday out at my house.
Rodney came and surveyed my RIMS system.  He had lots of comments, but
all in all, he thought my system was pretty good.

Here's your chance.  In the spirit of Rob Moline, I've gotten Rodney to
agree to answer some questions about RIMS systems.  But rather than post
his email address all over the internet, please send your questions
directly to me at the address below.  I will then collect them, forward
them to Rodney and then post his answers once a week until questions die
down.

David Sweeney
david at abacus-consultants.com



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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:36:24 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: double crop hops&bugs

Sorry can't help on the double cropping but maybe on the bugs. If the hop 
flowers haven't developed when you get your caterpillar invasion you can use 
spray with no worry about it getting in your beer. Sevin dust decomposes in 
a couple weeks according to the package label so you may use it early in the 
season. I use it on my food crops if I have to.

Often with bugs you get one or two breeding cycles and you can time your 
spray of dusting to take out the caterpillars and not have to respray more 
then once or twice. That allows plenty of time for the insecticide to wash 
off/decompose.

Alternately you can try to find something they like better then hops, try to 
attract birds to eat the bugs, spend a nickel on the kids.

Good brewing,
    Joe


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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:01:18 -0400
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: Stir Plate for Yeast Starter

 I have obtained a stir plate and plan to use it to suspend
 the yeast in my starter.  Can someone explain how to use
 the stir plate from the time the yeast is added to the
 starter to the time the starter is pitched into the wort.  I am
 concerned about when to start the stir plate after adding
 the yeast to the starter and how long the stir plate should
 run while the starter is growing and how fast should it run?
 I have a glass encased stir bar and a plastic coated stir bar.
 I am using a 2000 ml flask for the starter.  Is there anything
 important as far as how deep the starter wort should be in
 the flask when using the stir plate.  I usually make 750 ml of
 starter wort for 5 gal batches with on OG of 1.050 - 1.055.
 When making starters without a stir plate I always would be
 able to see activity in the form of krausen.  Will this still be
 the case with the stir plate or will the krausen be reduced?

We make the beer we drink!!!
Bob Barrett
Ann Arbor, MI




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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:05:31 -0400
From: "Charles R. Stewart" <Charles at TheStewarts.com>
Subject: Negro Modelo Clone

There is a Negro Modelo clone recipe in Tess and Mark Szamatulski's book
"Clone Brews" on page 141.  As with all their recipes, they have a full
grain and a mini-mash version.  I can send it to you if you'd like, but this
is a good book to have - I've enjoyed quite a few of the recipes from it.

On 17 Jul 2001, Nils Hedglin <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> queried:

> Hi all,
>   I've recently been seduced by Nerga Modelo's dark charms & would like to
> try a batch for myself.

[snip]

> So, any extract or partial-mash recipes?

Chip Stewart
Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Pursuant to United States Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section
227, any and all unsolicited commercial e-mail (spam) sent to this address
is subject to a download and archival fee of US$500.00.  The sending or
forwarding of such e-mail constitutes acceptance of these terms.



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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:58:46 -0400
From: Stephen.F.Higdon at am.pnu.com
Subject: Draft tower setup on chest freezer.

  This is my simple solution to the draft tower placement question. 
  
  PLEASE SEE: www.hbd.org/klob/Our_Brewstands/HiggyBasement2.jpg
  
  This setup has worked perfect for well over two years now.  There are 
  6 pressure regulators (inline), that are inside the freezer.  I 
  recently punched out a hole on the side of the tower, and added a 7th 
  faucet, this has it's own 5# CO2 tank and dual regulator inside the 
  chest (this 7th tap is not in this picture).  The freezer is 15 cu ft, 
  I think, and holds the 7 kegs with a little room to spare.  The red 
  hose coming out of the top left rear is hooked up to a 20# CO2 tank 
  with it's own dual gauge regulator that supplies the in line 6 
  regulators.
  
  I've cut my beer line lengths to match up to the volume of CO2 I want in 
  each of the beers on tap, (same temp, different pressures for different 
  styles).  This allows 7 individual 5 gallon kegs to be on tap at once, 
  each with it's own head pressure and carbonation levels.  The chest 
  freezer was ~$299 at Sam's Club.  The tower, drain, regulators, etc. 
  were bought at an auction, (a nearby bar closing).  Actually this is 
  half of the setup, I sold the other half to a friend.  I bought two 
  towers (12 faucets total), with 12 regulators, a dual regulator, plus 
  about 20 various keg taps, and many other fittings for $250. Sorry, I 
  just had to mention that, what a great deal that was!  It is like new, 
  after a little TLC.
  
  The drain runs to a small bucket filled with CaCl2, a trick I learned 
  from the fridge guy.  It does not grow bacteria, etc, that way.  The 
  lid is a bit heavy, but the hinges have held up fine so far.  I cut 
  right through the top of the lid, insulated the gaps, and put 
  stainless screws through.  The underside of these screws are secured 
  with large washers and nuts.  A Johnson control maintains the 
  temperature. This was an easy route to take, but works well.


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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:42:49 -0700
From: Smith Asylum <smithly at neta.com>
Subject: Re: Winter Welcome Ale

Gregg,
Well, Im glad to see someone whose taste for dynomite beer coincides with
mine.

I found a recipe for this beer on Cat's Meow but it's called Emma Wedgewoods
Ale or some thing like that.  It was a partial extract, which sufficiently
challenge

me  and it was my firts BIG BEER.  I read the SG as 1.085 and calculations put
it between 1.081 and 1.073, depending on whose numbers I used. I've had
trouble bringing the beer to attenuation.  It's been in the fermenter for about
seven weeks.  It's been racked 3X so it's not sitting on any solids and I had
it at too low a temp for a couple weeks.  You can follow the thread at
http://hbd.org/forums/. Go to "The Brewerys Views and Nrws" and look for
the "Stuck Ferment" thread.
Here are the ingredients:

7.5 lbs. British Pale DME
1.0 lb Pale Crystal
2 oz Roasted Barley
1 lb Clover Honey
2 oz Malto-Dextrin Powder
1 oz Fuggle plugs (boil)
1.25 oz Bullion pellets (boil)
0.75 oz E. Kent Golding pellets (flavor)
0.25 Bullion pellets (flavor)
0.5 oz E. Hallertauer pellets (aroma)
0.75 oz E. Kent Golding pellets (dry hop)
White Labs Claifornia Ale yeast WLP051

The hop schedule is kind of tedious but I'm looking forward to tasting it as the
interim samplings have been very good.  I suggest you look for the recipe on
Cats Meow.  There may be some others that are all-grain in there as well but
since I'm not there yet I didn't pay much attention.

Let me know what you find.

Schlange!

>
> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 10:43:30 -0500
> From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbpop.uchicago.edu>
> Subject: Winter Welcome Ale
>
> Hello all,
>
> A retailer near my sister's home often offers old inventory at bargain
> prices.  This past weekend I gambled $3 on a four-pack of Samuel Smith's
> Winter Welcome, of the '98/'99 vintage.  In spite of the clear bottles and
> about three years of age, this beer blew me away and humbled me as a home
> brewer.  Perhaps what most impressed me was the explosive malty aroma and
> flavor, full of rich character that I am incapable of adequately
> describing.  I'm wondering how Samuel Smith brewers achieve this kind of
> awesome aroma and flavor.  I know these seasonal recipes often include some
> special spices, but I can't detect anything unusual, and this version was
> surprisingly lacking in hops character.  Perhaps someone can suggest a
> grain bill for this recipe.  Maybe a specialty crystal or toasted malt is
> the key?  Or is it the Yorkshire Squares fermentation system and the house
> yeast that are required?  Although their website explains in some detail
> the fermentation system, I didn't quite understand it and don't hope to
> emulate the process, but maybe with a similar grist I might be able to
> achieve a respectable home brewed version.  Just in case I can't, I drove
> back and bought several $15 cases to keep reminding me of the goal.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Greg
>





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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:58:17 +0200
From: Hubert Hanghofer <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: Re: Krausening

Hi all,

Jeff Renner wrote in HBD#3687:
> Kraeusening is traditionally done to beer that has finished lagering.

This is new to me ...but one never knows, do one? ;-)
I can see that this could work but actually (at least today - in Bavarian 
breweries that I'm familiar with) krausening is done before lagering - right 
after the beer is close to final gravity in the primary.

10-15% krausen is common for lagering tanks with adjustable pressure relief 
valve. If you don't are equipped for this carbonation method (aka. 
"Spundung") and need to do closed carbonation (bottle conditioning) you'll 
either need lots of experience and instinct or you apply some calculations.

Following chart will give you details. It's quoted from my German book and 
should be readable with a fixed width font:

var	unit	notes and formulas
- -------------------------------------
K	Plato	apparent extract in krausen
D	g/cm3	Density = 261.1 / (261.53 - K ) 
T	Plato	expected terminal extract (apparent as measured with saccharometer)
F	g/L	concentration of fermentables in krausen

F = (K-T) * 8.192 * D
=====================


P	g/L	required priming rate (fermentable sugars per L beer)
Qb	L	quantity of green beer that needs to be primed
Qk	L	required quantity of krausen

Qk = Qb * P / (F-P)
===================

This "krausen-formula" results from solving following equation:
(Qk + Qb) * P = Qk * F
The left and right side of the equation each give the total quantity of 
required fermentable extract, ok?

UNITS:
L = Liter, Litre
g = grams
Density (20/4) = SG (20/20) * 0.9982 (...ok: that one should be neglible)

8.192 is the "Balling-factor" and corrects the effect of alcohol on 
saccharometer readings. You best understand it this way: If the saccharometer 
reading drops by 1 deg Plato, 0.8192 % of extract have actually been 
fermented.

I assume you're familiar with the calculation of the required priming rate 
(P). -Don't forget to take into account CO2 saturation at green beer 
temperatures and -if still present- any residual fermantables in the green 
beer.

The same calculations can be applied with wort-priming, aka. priming with 
"Speise".

hope this helps

Hubert HangHoFer
           ^ ^
Salzburg, Austria, EU
www.netbeer.org



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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:10:15 -0600
From: "Richard B. Dulany Jr." <RDulany at co.el-paso.tx.us>
Subject: dishwasher-free sanitizing

Regarding the recent posts on dishwashers and bottle cleaning:

Has anyone tried the old winemaker's method of rinsing your visually clean
bottles with a 10% potassium metabisulfite solution immediately before
bottling? Will it adversely affect the taste or head of beer? It works great
on white wines, but then I usually want to raise the free SO2 level of the
wines slightly at bottling anyway.

Just wondering if this is a bad idea for beer. Not everyone has a
dishwasher.

Ricardo






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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 00:07:30 +0200
From: Hubert Hanghofer <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: Re: pH measurements

Hi all,

It's possible to measure pH with a reproducibility of less than 0.02 - but 
only if you know about all the pitfalls and take care of them! If you don't, 
you may soon find your values far off (say more than 0.1, maybe 0.2) even if 
using a high end pH-meter, while another tester using simple equipment but 
paying attention to the pitfalls will be in the right ballpark!

So -for example- to achieve reproducibility of less than 0.02, it's essential 
to keep the temperature difference between measurement and calibration within 
0.1 deg Celsius (eg. calibrate and measure in the same tempered water bath)! 
A temperature compensated pH-meter WON'T help you here!

Why?

Temperature compensation is probably the most misunderstood feature and thus 
causes many errors - IMHO even in "more or less" scientific publications. Let 
me try to explain it this way (partially quoting WTW's pH-primer):

A pH-meter can only measure a potential difference - a voltage - generated 
between two electrodes, one of which is sensitive to H3O+
The measured voltage has a linear dependency on the pH value and is converted 
by means of calibration data.

BUT: The slope of the corresponding straight line curve is 
temperature-dependent. A change of the pH value by one unit results in a 
voltage change of
55.19 mV  at  5C
59.16 mV  at  25C or
63.12 mV  at  45C

It's only this change in sensitivity that can be compensated, NOT the pH! 
There's no way for the pH meter to know the pH / Temp characteristics of a 
certain medium.

But shouldn't temperature compensation work when calibration and measurements 
are carried out at different temperatures?

In theory yes, BUT: There's another pitfall: Offset voltage! Ideally, the 
electrodes should give 0 mV at pH7, in practice this is never the case. As 
well as the slope, the offset voltage is also temperature-dependent. The 
influences that are causing offset voltage are, however, so complex that 
compensation is NOT possible! And that's the reason why you should calibrate 
at measurement temps. Remember we are talking about 0.02 reproducibility. If 
you round off to 0.1 it gets easier but I still wouldn't calibrate off more 
than 5C.



I don't want to torture you any further with my sloppy English. I've 
*temporary* uploaded a pH-primer from WTW for those of you who want to know 
everything about measuring pH - including all the pitfalls!
http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/bin/ph_e.pdf

File size is 1006kB. If someone finds this primer useful and owns the 
resources to host it permanently - please contact www.WTW.com to ask for 
permission. I think it's shareware but don't know for sure.


Allzeit gut Sud!

Hubert Hanghofer
Salzburg, Austria

www.netbeer.org


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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:13:18 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Boiling Pot/Liquor Tank & Brewing with Plums

Hi all,
  Two of the things that're keeping me from trying all-grain recipes is the
worry about getting & keeping the water to the right temperature for the
mashing & sparging, & only having a 5 gallon boiling pot.  My mash/lauter
tun is a very nice one from Hobby Beverage Equipment, & they have a Hot
Liquor tank, but buying something just to keep water hot seems to be a bit
too much specialization to me.  I'm also worried about the affect of the
high water temperatures on the racking tubes & canes.  Then I had a
brilliant idea that might solve both problems.  If I buy a boiling kettle
with a valve at the bottom, then I could us it as a hot liquor tank, then
turn around & use it for the boil.  Having only done 1 all-grain so long ago
I don't remember the process, will using the pot for double duty work?  Or
will I need to be collecting the run-off into the boiling pot at the same
time I need to for the sparge?

  The summer fruit crop must be starting to roll in since everyone at work
bringing in loads of extras they want to get rid of.  One person has so many
plums she can't get rid of them fast enough.  I was thinking about trying a
plum brew.  Has anyone else brewed with plums?  What flavor profiles would
make a good flavoring plum?  For that matter, what kind of base beer would I
use?  From my general reading, I know that it would probably be best to add
the plums during secondary fermentation, but how much for a 5 gallon batch?
Since the plums were grown in a backyard, I'm pretty sure they're relatively
free of pesticides, but are they other concerns in using fresh fruits in
brewing, like wild yeasts, naturally occuring bacteria, etc?

Thanks,
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA



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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:15:11 -0400
From: "Brian M Dotlich" <BMDotlich at cs.com>
Subject: King Cooker

Fellow Brewers,

Recently I purchased a King Cooker (single jet "rocket engine" type LPG
burner) used at a yard sale.  I was wondering what the little plate that
pivots over the flame is for.  Should I swing it over the flame when I am
doing my 5 gallon full wort boils or should I leave it off to the side

Cheers

Brian Dotlich
Dayton OH



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