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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  recommended pressure for dispensing beers from a draft box... (Marc Donnelly)
  Why ,,, /pH ("Stephen Alexander")
  Diacetyl Rest ("Braam Greyling")
  stuck fermentation? (Alan McKay)
  2001 Topsfield Fair Homebrew Competition (North Shore Brewers)
  Chlorine (AJ)
  Yeast Harvesting & Malt Storage ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re: stuck fermentation? (Jeff Renner)
  priming concerns (David Brandt)
  Recipe help (Hop_Head)
  Underfermented IPA (Perez)
  Stuck ferment, not (Frank Tutzauer)
  Removing chlorine (Dan.Stedman)


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Date: Sun, 22 Jul 01 16:38:14 -0500
From: Marc Donnelly <marc at targetadv.com>
Subject: recommended pressure for dispensing beers from a draft box...

I recently got a two product draft box - cooler with two taps on the 
front and 50+ feet of SS tubing on the inside.

design information:
50 feet of 5/16 inch O.D. SS tubing
5 feet of 1/4 inch I.D plastic tubing to connect the draft box to the 
keg/corny.

I was wondering what suggested pressure to despense beer at?  Also would 
it differ, depending if I was using a corney keg or real 16 gallon keg.

the way it's setup is:
air tank
keg
cooler
tap
cup (then down the hatch)


any insight would help.



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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:36:32 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Why ,,, /pH 

Bob Shotola wrote ....

>Steve A, in terms of the lower pH reading in your half empty Cornelius,
>perhaps you let a teardrop of happiness fall into the tank, thankful that
>your results supported your hypothesis :)

Bob - it's not a crying matter to be wrong or right - that's reserved for
ignorance and apathy.   It's a much bigger deal to lack an opinion.  As
Charles McCabe of the S.F. Examiner wrote a century+ past -   "Any
clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art.".   So hats off
to the artist formally known as Dr.Fix and others who have
raised the flag of "I think that .." in the name of a more perfect
understanding.  There are many more tests to be done on this
matter before anyone is right or wrong .

 ===

Hubert Hangofer- writes ....
>It's possible to measure pH with a reproducibility of less than 0.02 - but
>only if you know about all the pitfalls and take care of them! [...]

Hubert is, as usual, correct.  My samples were centrifuged rather than
filtered and kept in a tap water bath, measured with a Denver AP-25
http://www.denverinstrument.com/adlarge.htm with a stated  accuracy of 0.002
pH ) [at 22.4C +- 0.2C].  Probably the nicest  'tool' I own right up there
with my Kubota.  I am *NOT* implying accuracy beyond the capabilities, just
regurgitating readings and the mean value of some repeated readings.

Hubert brings up  some of the details  that cause inaccuracies.  What
shouldn't be lost is the reproducibility rather than the absolute accuracy
is needed to compare samples.  I've been able in this particular case to
repeat readings of the samples in various orders and the readings are
repeatable to a good bit better than +- 0.005 - more like 0.002 if I wait
long enough   The ~0.030 pH differences between fermenters are very real and
reproducible.    The absolute accuracy is unlikely to be great as the
reproducibility under my conditions. - but I have recently calibrated the
meter so there is good reason to believe the measurements are accurate
enough to use meaningfully.

 -Steve



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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:02:24 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Diacetyl Rest

Hi all,

Ant wrote:

> I am looking for confirmation regarding the diacetyl rest procedure as
> set out in Brewing Lager Beer.
> 
> As I understand it, when you are at 1/3rd gravity or about 1P away
> from target gravity, you raise your wort temperature to 16C, at no
> faster rate than 3C per 24 hours. Once fermented out, you lower
> temperature to 0C, again no faster than 3C per day.
> 
> I am trying this schedule for the third time. Each time though, the
> beer seems to reach terminal gravity before I get to 16C. I am also
> nervous that I am exposed to autolysis, if I don't draw my yeast off
> before I get down to 0C.
 
Ant,
My solution might not have the scientific accuracy you require but 
here goes anyway. 
After primary fermentation at about 7deg C for one or two weeks 
depending on the type of beer , I remove the primary from the fridge 
for one day max. The beer temperature will then rise to about 18 
deg C. Usually I try not to let it go higher. Then I rack it off to 
secondary and back it goes for three weeks lagering at 4 - 5 deg C. 
Havent had problems with autolysis yet. I guess you can rack it 
first before letting it rise. Autolysis also depends a lot on the yeast 
strain you use. My favourite for lager and Pils is Wyeast Czech 
Pils. If you like your beers malty, then try it.  :-)

Cheers

Braam Greyling
 


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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 07:02:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: stuck fermentation?

Steve,

>From 1.062 down to 1.015 sounds pretty normal to me depending upon
the ingredients you used, including the yeast.  Unfortunately you
made no mention of either.  It might come down another couple of points
if you leave it a while, then again it might not.

If the SG stays the same 3 days in a row then it should be safe to bottle.

If you ever do get a stuck fermentation (which I do not think you have
right now), check the FAQ on my homepage below for what to do about it.

BTW, are you sure the "furry white things" aren't just little pools
of tiny bubbles?

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:08:41 -0400
From: North Shore Brewers <north_shore_brewers at yahoo.com>
Subject: 2001 Topsfield Fair Homebrew Competition

The North Shore Brewers and the Topsfield Fair announce the 2001 Topsfield 
Fair Homebrew Competition,
to be held on Saturday, September 8, 2001.  This is a BJCP sanctioned 
competition.

Entries are due by September 1, 2001.

There will be numerous drop-off locations in the Greater Boston 
Area.  Entries can also be dropped off at the Topsfield Fairgrounds August 
29th - 31st, or shipped to us by the shipping service of your choice.

Please visit the Topsfield Fair Homebrew Competition web site at:

<http://hbd.org/northshore/Topsfair.html>

We are in need of judges and stewards, and hope to see many of the people 
back who have helped us in the past, along with lots of new faces. At the 
website is a link for *on-line* judge and steward sign-up.  Early 
registration helps us to plan better (as well as preventing undue panic 
:-)), and, using the on-line forms, it only takes a few minutes of your time.

Thanks, and good luck in the competition!

Seth Goodman

- --
Seth Goodman
Vice President
North Shore Brewers
http://hbd.org/northshore





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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:23:55 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Chlorine


If boiling doesn't remove it it's chloramine. This is easily disposed of
by stirring a crushed Campden tablet into the water. One should treat 20
gallons. If the chlorine smell isn't gone with one, use a second but
that would be unusual. Note that wine makers use 1 per gallon and that
these are nothing more than the metabite that was discussed here (as a
potential sanitizer) a few days back. The byproducts of this treatment
are very low levels of chloride, potassium, sulfate and ammonium ions
(this last will be used by the yeast as a nitrogen source.



- --
A.J. deLange
CT Project Manager
Zeta Associates
10302 Eaton Place
Fairfax, VA 22030
(703) 359 8696
855 0905
ajdel at mindspring.com




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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:30:56 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Yeast Harvesting & Malt Storage

Denis Bekaert wrote of Yeast Harvesting:

>I have been harvesting the slurry at
>the bottom of the primary fermenting pail but it
>occurred to me that the krausen should be rich in
>yeast cells because in the case of ales, the action is
>on top.  

Skimming your krausen would be the best procedure for harvesting from an
ale.  You're right, you'll be selecting [a higher percentage of] the better
performers.  This also comes with the additional advantage of not having to
worry about carrying over much trub or dead cells.  Collecting from the
sediment increases your chances of selecting a higher percentage of early
floc cells.

>While that might lead to contamination if harvested
>from the primary during active fermentation,

Why?  If you have a contamination in your primary, you will have
contaminated beer, right?  Just think of the primary as a big step-up
starter and trust your sanitation practices ;-)  You won't get much krausen
to harvest from your average starter.

>Am I on the right track here, or am I complicating a
>simple process?

If you can harvest from krausen without compromising your primary, then do
it man - DOOOO IIIIIT! [I should heed my own advice here as well.  I'm just
so lazy!]

******************

Tom Jabas posted regarding malt storage:

>I found
>the screw on lids you talked about at various sites throughout the
internet.
>They are called Gamma Seals and sell for as little as $6.00.  

I got a few posts regarding this from other sources as well, thanks guys!

>As far as silica gel, I hadn't even
>considered something like that.  I checked a few resources and it seems
this
>is a pretty common method of keeping moisture out of grains for long term
>storage. 

I re-read the tool storage article that suggested silca gel.  It did not
mention any special type or preparation of silica gel.  It reads as any old
run-of-the-mill silica gel.  Unfortunately, it doesn't mention time in the
microwave either, so I'm assuming HIGH setting for a few minutes???

>craft stores are a good silica gel source because people
>use it for drying flowers

Good info 'cause I want a big tub-O-silica.  I would think that the silica
gel with the pink/blue indicator pellets would be a wise choice as they will
tell you when the gel is spent and /should/ tell you when it's done in the
microwave.  Now if only someone would tell me the best solution for my
serving fridge.  The condensation buildup is killing me!  Calcium chloride?
Silica gel?  Any others?

>It may be overkill, but we've been 'enjoying'  95F and 95%
>humidity the past few days!  Are you fairing any better in NJ?

It's been nice the past 2 weeks.  Now we're back to the 95F/95% and the
dehumidifier is working overtime.

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal



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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:20:23 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: stuck fermentation?

Steve Doig <steve.doig at asu.edu> of Tempe, AZ  racked his IPA and it 
stopped producing bubbles, and is suffering from self confessed

>Newbie panic

and asks

>- -- Is everything okay, and I should leave it in the secondary for
>another week as the recipe says?

Everything sounds fine. A typical beer will finish at about "quarter 
gravity," which is about where your's is - 1.062 --> 1.015.

The reason it stopped bubbling is not that it completely stopped 
fermenting (although it's probably all but stopped), but rather that 
beer will only bubble out CO2 in excess of saturation.  When you 
racked, you knocked out some of the CO2 (like shaking a coke), so 
what little CO2 is still evolving is being absorbed.  This usually 
happens after racking.  If it were still actively fermenting, it 
would start bubbling again as soon as it reached saturation.

>- -- Is everything okay, and I'm ready to bottle despite the recipe's
>advice to go another week?

I like to wait for more yeast and other stuff (technical term) to 
settle out.  Then you have less in the bottle.  This is especially 
good for a paler beer like you IPA.  It's only esthetic, but we do 
drink with our eyes.

It does depend on how much head space you have.  If it isn't evolving 
any more CO2 and you are using a bucket with lots of head space, then 
you can't be quite as cavalier about leaving it in the secondary as 
you could it it were in a full carboy.

I like to rack with gelatin if I want clear beer in a hurry.  It is 
remarkable how fast it clears a beer.  It's best to do this when 
fermentation is more or less stopped.  Dropping the temperature 
helps, too.  I don't suppose that's an option in Tempe in July.

>- -- Or am I a victim of "stuck fermentation", which I've seen referred to
>on this list occasionally?
>- -- And, if so, what do I do to jump-start it again?

No problem here.  You can relax.

>Also, I now see a few furry white patches floating on the surface of the
>wort. They don't look like the smooth yellowish blobs of yeast from the
>primary. I was careful about sanitizing everything, but is that some
>sort of wild crud growing?

Those patches are almost certainly little patches of tiny bubbles. 
The CO2 is evolving from a few localized spots down there in the 
depths and rising is tiny streams.

Sounds like you've done everything right.  If you can't drop the 
temperature into the low 60's and/or if you have a good bit of head 
space, you wight want to bottle earlier rather than later.

Good luck.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:32:15 -0700
From: David Brandt <jdlcr at flash.netdex.com>
Subject: priming concerns

Dear HBD'rs,
   Sometimes when I prime my beer it foams. The last time it went nuts and
almost overflowed the priming bucket. It was an Oatmeal Stout with a bit of
lactose added at the end of the boil. A few bubbles (and I mean very few)
were rising in the secondary after a week but its gravity was as expected
 -what with lactose added.  My syrup was cooled to a bit above room temp.
What causes this foaming at priming time, why can it foam at different
rates, and does this occasional event encourage oxidization?

Thanks for the help,
David Brandt
Cloverdale, CA 


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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:22:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Hop_Head at webtv.net
Subject: Recipe help

Here is the scenario: A bunch of us from work are planning an outing to
a Buffalo Bill's game. I plan on brewing a batch of beer for the
"tailgate party". I was thinking of an American Cream Ale. I would like
to make it reddish without adding too much flavor. How can I accomplish
this? I'm thinking a small amount of roasted barley, black patent, or
chocolate in the mash, maybe 4oz. or so. This will be a 10 gallon all
grain batch with maybe a few pounds of flaked maze or something to "thin
it out". I'm thinking tettnang, hallertau or something similar.   The
people that will be going are not really "real beer" drinkers. I figure
if I brew a light ale with reddish color, I might be able to cure them
of their "fear of the dark". You know, anything darker than Bud is
"dark". I wonder what they would say about my Imperial stout? 
Thanks
Jim
Buffalo NY



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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:35:18 -0400
From: Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: Underfermented IPA

OK Long time lurker comes out to play and asks...

I have an IPA (Harpoon Clone) that is under fermented.  I have solicited
much advice from the great brewers of my homebrew club, The Hogtown
Brewers, but thought I would spread the wealth or the risk, as the case
may be.  This is a potentially great beer if I can solve this problem.
Otherwise I have to do as one has suggested and drink it as is.  As that is
the first advised solution I received I should say I am looking for others
that may suit my taste buds better.

The offerings are:

1 - Shut up and drink it!

2 - Purge the air out of a bottling bucket, open the bottles, pour them in and
pitch some more yeast (1056 in this case).

3 - Pop the tops, drop a few grains of Nottingham, recap and see if that
works.

4 - Same as 3 but use one Prime Tab.

Options 3 and 4 seem like potential pyrotechnics.  Any thoughts???

Dave Perez
Gainesville, FL



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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:58:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Stuck ferment, not

Newbie Steve is worried about a stuck ferment:

>For five days, it's been fermenting nicely, about 50 burps/min from the
>airlock....I decided to rack....Ten hours later, there's no evidence of
>fermentation.... OG was 1.062 at 78 degrees; the specific gravity
>when I racked this morning was 1.015 at 70 degrees.

> -- Is everything okay...?

Yes.

>[Am I] ready to bottle despite the recipe's advice to go another week?

Perhaps.  It won't hurt to keep it in secondary for the week, and since
you're new it's probably a good idea to wait.  But I bet your beer is
already finished, or close to it, particularly if those hydrometer temps
are indicative of your fermentation temps.  (They're a little high.)

> -- Or am I a victim of "stuck fermentation"...?

Definitely not.  Your beer's already at 75% attenuation.  It might
attenuate a little bit more, so waiting's no big deal.  Bottle when the
gravity stays the same for three days in a row.

>Also, I now see a few furry white patches floating on the surface of the
>wort.

Yeast and/or CO2 bubbles.  Your beer is fine.  Repeat the mantra:  Relax,
don't worry, have a homebrew (from your first batch!)

 --frank
 



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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:43:17 -0500
From: Dan.Stedman at PILLSBURY.COM
Subject: Removing chlorine



Jeff writes:

>After a lot of tinkering and 'sperimenting, I have ascertained that
>I have a problem with the local water supply. It seems they pump a LOT of
>chlorine into the (rather hard) water. Stands and boils don't seem to be
>cutting it with regards to removal of this vile taint. Can anyone recommend
>a commercially available filtration system that can help with this?

Hi Jeff - I have very hard water with a fair amount of chlorine here in
Minnetonka, MN, and I have found that running it through a standard active
carbon filter at a rate of about 1.5 gallons a minute (the slower the better)
has removed all chlorine taste and has had a very positive effect on the quality
of my beer. I just bought the active carbon filter, housing, and fittings for
connecting it to my basement faucet, and I just hook it up when I need it.
Easily less then $40 for everything, and it made a big difference.

Also, from the Green Bay Rackers web site & A.J. deLange
(http://www.rackers.org/newsletters/9811news.shtml):

Another option is Campden tablets. You can effectively remove 3 mg/L of
chloramine or 6 mg/L of chlorine from twenty gallons of water by adding a single
695 mg Campden tablet. All you need to do is add the crushed Campden tablet to
cold water, stir, and let it sit. The reaction takes place in a couple of
minutes. Then you're ready to roll! This method will add a smidge more chloride,
potassium, and sulfate to your water. If you are concerned about excess chlorine
/ chloramine you could use two or three tablets with little problem. People who
are extremely sensitive to sulfites should use this method with caution, but
home vintners regularly use one or two tablets per gallon!

hope this helps,
Dan in Minnetonka





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