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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Newbie Yeast Question ("Bissell, Todd S")
  Stir Plates,Yeast Viability, and a thank you... ("Greenly, Jeff")
  electric brewing (Alan McKay)
  Electric Brewing (Ken Schwartz)
  Re: A Stir Plate for Yeast Starters? (Phil Wilcox)
  Eastern Ontario Keg Source Anyone ("Jay Wirsig")
  Harpoon IPA clone ("Jay Wirsig")
  Male hop flowers ("Jay Wirsig")
  electric brewing systems (kreinhar)
  Electric Brewing Systems ("Dan Listermann")
  Re : electric brewing system ("Pete Calinski")
  RE: Yeast Viability ("Houseman, David L")
  FWH (again, I'm sure) ("Doug Hurst")
  transgender hops 7/16 (Dave Wills)
  Using bread yeast for bottling ("William Graham")
  Temperature, carbonation, flavor and the pocket beer engine (Jeff Renner)
  Underfermented IPA (Perez)
  RIMS Thermostat probe location ("Gary Smith")


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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:35:32 -0700
From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell at spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: Newbie Yeast Question


Hi all,

After a fairly typical 9 day Primary Ferment (lag-time
was 30 hours, so left it in Primary to compensate a bit),  I just
got done racking my porter (O.G. 1.070, F.G. 1.019) to the Secondary.
I couldn't help but notice allot of loose material still in
suspension... in fact, it was difficult to even obtain an accurate
hydrometer reading, with a blanket of foam on top obscuring the
gradules of the hydrometer, a layer of gunk on the bottom,
and all types of "stuff" floating around in the middle...!

This is my sixth batch ever, and first batch that I've ever used White Labs'
California Ale (WLP001). Since I have never seen this behavior
before -- and normally use the White Labs British Ale, which is
said to have "Very High Flocculation" -- is what I'm seeing with
the California Ale yeast merely an example of what the White Labs
website describes as "Medium Flocculation"...?

I tried a sip, and it is indeed very yeasty and very un-porterlike, so
put a bit of prepared gelatin into the secondary, to try to clear
up some of the mess that's floating on top, on bottom, and
everywhere else....!

Anybody have any ideas, suggestions, critiques, as far as making
sure that, in the long run, that I do indeed end up with a nice
drinkable porter.....?

Cheers!

Todd Bissell
Imperial Beach, CA





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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 04:36:10 -0400
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Stir Plates,Yeast Viability, and a thank you...

Dear Friends,

I just wanted to touch on a few posts from yesterday's Homebrew Digest
#3692.

	Mr. Lemons has questions and comments concerning stir plates. Having
liberated one of these from a surplus sale, I have found it indispensible
for making potent starters in my home brewery. I honestly can't say whether
it is "damaging the yeast" but if the strength of my starters are any
indication, I would say no. I believe the stirring lets the yeasties get
more O2 and get rid of more CO2 than they otherwise could in a static
environment. As for putting a magnetic stirrer in a carboy, I don't think I
would do that, because the magnet would be banging about on regular glass
instead of borosilicate, and I would be concerned about a catastrophic
failure... Mr. Lemons's last comment was about wrist shakers, which are
pretty nifty gadgets in the lab. I built a gadget along the same lines using
a sturdy milk crate, some boards cut into rockers, some nuts, washers, and a
couple of threaded bars. I made a rocking cradle for my carboys, basically,
and it did pretty good for aerating the wort/gently stirring things up. If
anyone would like, I'll send a photo...
	RJ makes some really good comments in a post titled "Yeast
Viability." When I first started brewing, I felt the same way. But my brew
guru told me that I was being short-sighted. We made a batch of brown ale,
which was his "house brew" and we split the batch. He pitched one ale yeast
in half of the batch, and another strain in the other half. We waited, and
when it was ready, he had me taste the two brews, with a palate cleanser in
between. They were two different beers. I was convinced, and I have been
getting into yeast starters and culturing since then. I do think that you
can overdo it in yeast ranching, though, and I think that is RJ's point. My
house brew uses a dry ale yeast, and that works fine. I play with my yeast
lab because it's an interesting facet of Our Grande Hobby, and because I can
make a better product (sometimes!) Anyway, my compliments to RJ on a
thought-provoking post.
	I also want to thank everyone who replied to my post concerning
water filtration and chlorine. As usual, everyone was very helpful. I have
decided that it would be best to put together a portable system that can be
used strictly for brewing, perhaps gaining access through the kitchen
faucet, and I will try the Campden tablets as was also sugggested. I have
written another letter to my local water supplier, again asking for a
detailed water quality report. My previous letter got me a brochure, rather
misleadingly titled, "Water Quality and You" which told me absolutely
nothing, except that my water was clean and my tax dollars were well-spent
keeping it that way, and a sheet entitled "Dr. Bob's tips on Drinking Water"
which let me know that I wasn't drinking enough water, unless you count the
beer I'm making with that water, in which case I'm well over budget...  


Jeff
Morgantown, WV

GO 'EERS!


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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 07:40:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: electric brewing


Joe,

Paddock Wood (www.paddockwood.com) has some electric brewing systems that are
not too unreasonably priced.  Being a great-white-northerner I too cannot brew
in the winter with my current setup, and am taking a serious look at electric.
An e-friend of mine (awesome beer, BTW, Brian!) is using an electric system and
swears it's the way to go.

Unfortunately I just recently bought a house and this is what takes up most of
my time and money at the moment, so laying out cash for a new brewing system has
to get prioritized somewhere between a new washer-and-dryer, and renovating the
kitchen and bathroom :-/

If you do go electric (didn't "Squeeze" have a song by that name?), please keep
us all informed on what equipment you are using, and how you like it.

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:18:47 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Electric Brewing

Joe Gerteis brought up electric brewing, and in particular mentioned my
system found on my web page (see URL below).

I used that system for a long time but have moved on to a new setup,
though I have not (yet) documented it on my page.  Actually, I'm still
using the same HLT as shown.  The boiler is what's different.

The boiler now consists of a 32-qt heavy-gauge aluminum kettle (aluminum
for excellent heat transfer compared with SS) with three heater blankets
attached (see below).  The heater blankets are flat, silicone rectangles
and circles that have heating elements embedded in them.  They are
supplied with adhesive backing so they literally just stick in place.  I
used a 12" circular on the bottom and two 18" x 6" rectangles around the
circumference.  The two on the side were installed as low on the kettle
as possible.

The thing about this approach is that nothing touches the wort except
the kettle walls (which would touch your wort no matter what, right?).
As for aluminum vs SS, that debate has been thrashed many times here and
I won't defend aluminum any further than to say it's fine.

These heaters are definitely not cheap but I have made dozens of batches
using them and they are holding up good as new.  Besides, we homebrewers
will spare no expense to make inexpensive beer, right?

Key to using these things is the insulative wrap.  In addition to
protecting you from burns from casual or accidental contact, they
prevent most heat from escaping into the surrounding air and rather
directs the heat into the kettle through the walls (here is where
aluminum's heat conductivity is important).  Any kind of insulative wrap
would do but what I did was to sandwich fiberglass duct batting between
sheets of aluminum window screening, crimped around the edges.  The
kettle sits on one circular pad and I used a length of Velcro to hold a
rectangular pad around the circumference of the kettle.  Neither
insulator is permanently attached to the kettle.

The two rectangular heaters are 1080W each.  The circular unit is
1131W.  They all have a heat density of 10W/sq-in.  This seems to be a
good number to prevent scorching (which has never even been an issue
with this thing).  I wired one rectangular and the circular together to
minimize the power requirement for that circuit (the other rectangular
runs on its own circuit, the wiring for two obtaining two 120V circuits
from a 240V dryer outlet is the same as what's on my web page), but I
plan to rewire it so the circle is separate.  I don't think the extra
50W (1/2 amp) will be a showstopper.

You should NEVER run the blankets when there is no liquid inside the
kettle -- they will overheat and burn up.  If I have the circle wired
separate, I can start heating just after I start sparging since there
will then be liquid covering the bottom of the kettle.

The heaters were bought from McMaster-Carr, http://www.mcmaster.com .
Look at part numbers 35765K125 (12" circular, $52) and 35765K184
(rectangular, $40 each).  (Put one of these part numbers in the "find"
box to pull up the catalog page, which is currently page 414).  Be sure
to specify 10W/sq-in power density (they come in 2.5, 5, and 10).

- --
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
Fermentation Chiller Kits and More at The Gadget Store
http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com




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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:00:11 -0400
From: Phil Wilcox <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Re: A Stir Plate for Yeast Starters?

Mike lemons asked about wrist shakers vs Stirplates. Wrist shakers are
more popular in the UK. They do basically the same thing.
But as we all know the English prefer things shaken, not stirred....

Couldn't resist...

The hard part about 5 gal stir bars is that the bottom of most carboys
are
convex and it is hard to place the stir bar close to the magnet source.
I
imagine a bit of home-engineering might get you there though. I couln't
get it to work with my regular carboys, and haven't tried it on my Pyrex

carboy since I acquired it.

Phil Wilcox
Jackson, MI



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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:53:31 -0400
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at can.dupont.com>
Subject: Eastern Ontario Keg Source Anyone

I'm looking for an inexpensive source of Pepsi/Coke Kegs in Eastern Ontario
Canada Ottawa-Toronto-Cornwall area.  Can anyone elp me out on this one?

>>Jay




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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:55:06 -0400
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at can.dupont.com>
Subject: Harpoon IPA clone

I tasted a Harpoon IPA while in Boston earlier this year and would like to
make one does anyone have an all grain recipe for it?
>>Jay




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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:03:25 -0400
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at can.dupont.com>
Subject: Male hop flowers

I have been using homegrown hops for a while now.  Last year I had a
problem with hop seeds plugging my kettle manifold so I switched to grain
bags to hold my hops.  What causes them to go to seed?
On another note I think a fairly common mistake is to pick hops too early.
I have a method for telling if my hops are ripe that seems to work well for
me.  My hops seem to develop faster furthest from the base of the plant.  I
pick one and rub it between my hands if it turns to a green mush with a lot
of moisture it is not ready, if it is like paper and after vigorous rubbing
my hands get sticky with hop resins with little moisture and my hands are
very fragrant then they are ripe.

>>Jay




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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:06:30 -0400
From: kreinhar at clarksteel.com
Subject: electric brewing systems



Joe Gerteis wrote

 ....*I myself am not a great tinkerer.  There are now lots of really nice
propane-fired all-grain systems available commercially.  I would love to
see some more electric alternatives.  I should say that I have no axe to
grind here.  I am just toying with ideas.  What do others think?  Are
there other problems that I am not seeing?  Anyone out there have
experience using electric heating elements that they want to share?   *

 - - -

I opted for the BC-50 for several reasons, the main reason being that it is
 electric.Yes - it's more expensive than making your own, t my time is
valuable and this brewery is a site to behold, a conversation piece.

My experience with the electric, after having limited exposure to propane,
is that the kettle is slower to get to a rolling boil after run-off, but
the way it's designed, the boil REALLY rolls - as well as with propane.

I've enjoyed every session brewing on the BC.  The HLT is programmed; set
the desired strike, sparge, mash-out temp and walk away.  It can also be
set up on a timer (not included) the prior evening - set the strike temp
and wake up ready to brew.

I also like being able to brew inside without worry.  I can brew inside on
rainy days, spend time with my kids outside on nice days.  This was big
factor.

I'm not implying it's the best system, or a better system than the
wonderful systems I see at all those wonderful sites (I love looking at all
 the RIMS and different systems that the brewing community have put
together and I admire the creativity!).  Just the
best system for me.
Just my $.02.

Kevin




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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:22:36 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Electric Brewing Systems

: joseph540 at elvis.com  Asks about why electric brewing systems are uncommon.
I believe it is because the usual household voltage in North America is 120
V.  To get 5 gallons of wort to boil at this voltage requires a lot of
amperage - more than most house wirings are rated.  Most houses do have at
least one 220V outlet usually for stoves, air conditioners and dryers.  This
voltage and the circuits it is on is fine for brewing.

 I use a half barrel with two water heater elements in it wired to two legs
of a 3-phase 240 V line.  One element is rated at 3500W and the other at
4500W.  Hooking it to 3-phase derates these elements to about 86% of their
rated wattage or something like that.  I use both to achieve a boil and turn
the 4500W off to maintain the boil.  I can get 10 gallons rolling in 25
minutes.

The elements are the low wattage density type that double over on
themselves.  Scorching has not been a problem, but I can see that beer stone
will be a problem in time.


 Dan Listermann

Check out our new E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com

Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!




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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:58:26 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re : electric brewing system

Joe Gerteis states, ".  I would love to see some more electric
alternatives".

Consider the heatstick at:

http://hbd.org/pcalinsk/



Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0^45'49.1" North,  5^7'9.5" East of Ground Zero.

********************************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
********************************************************************



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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:04:14 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Yeast Viability

RJ states: "For the life of me I can't understand all the hoopla when the
suject [sic] of yeast viability comes up between homebrewers" with some good
points about the need to worry about yeast.  

This logic can apply to our discussions on water, oxidation, HSA, and a
number of other points.  For the newbie just beginning to brew with kits,
s/he doesn't have to worry about most of this.  But as we progress in our
hobby, we do concern ourselves about these finer points of brewer because we
can, it's a hobby, it's fun.  Heck if we just wanted good beer these days
there's plenty to be had at local micros and brewpubs.  With all the
equipment, homebrewing isn't necessarily cheaper than buying good commercial
beer either, at least not when you've progressed to the point of interest in
the finer points.  Some of us are very interested in the science of brewing,
of understanding and using this to improve our results and consistency.
Others of us are more interested in the art of brewing, the camaraderie,
judging or other aspects.  It's the nature of a hobby after all.  That's the
hoopla....

Dave Houseman 






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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:03:17 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: FWH (again, I'm sure)

Jeff, 

Thanks for posting the Irish-American Ale recipe.  I have added it to my
list of beers to make.  But, I guess I don't fully understand First Wort
Hopping. 

Your recipe states:

Bittering hops - Cluster (I used 3/4 oz for 19 IBU)
Finishing hops - Golding (Domestic would be fine) (I used 1/2 oz for 15
min. for 4 IBU and another 1/2 oz at knockout) (FWH might be nice here)
Target 23 IBU

You say FWH might be nice here.  Don't you get much higher bitterness
extraction with FWH since the hops are in throughout the entire boil?  I
tend to think of it as being similar to a bittering addition, in terms
of utilization.   Not only that, but won't the aromatics be driven off
during the boil?

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL  



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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:19:20 -0700
From: Dave Wills <dave at freshops.com>
Subject: transgender hops 7/16

Re:  Hop sex change from female to male.

This is not a sex change, but some hops under certain conditions do develop
male flowers now and then, which however are not functional. Cascade 
is notorious for developing some rudimentary male flowers,  I have
seen as much as 20% of the plant turn male in some years, but these "male"
flowers do not produce any functional pollen. This is normal and keep 
on stringing the same plant again next year, there may not be many 
male flowers depending on the season.
    As far as the early bloom goes,  Unless you want to encourage 2 
sets of flowers, I think these hops have been trained too early. 
Usually under our conditions, mid May is the optimal time for 
training,that should delay the onset of flowering.  Early April is 
definitely much too early.
>

- -- 
Dave Wills
Freshops
purveyor of fine hops


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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:57:45 -0600
From: "William Graham" <goldencity1 at home.com>
Subject: Using bread yeast for bottling

Greets, brewsters! (btw, where is burley?)

	I tend to put my beers in secondary for a couple of months, and tend to
suffer from low carbonation due to lack of yeast in my beers. ( I can
elaborate if anyone cares. ). Anyway, I've got 2 5 gallon batches of CAP
that have been lagering at about 34F for 5 months now. In order to avoid my
usual problem, i would like to add some fresh yeast to my corn sugar in the
bottling bucket to ensure good carbonation. But being that I've been
laid-off for the second time this year( sigh ), I'd rather not buy beer
yeast, but use bread yeast of which I've got at least 1/2 pound. Will this
give any off flavors? Will it carbonate the beer at 75F? I can't imagine it
adding any goofy flavors, but I thought a quick check with the collective
might be in order.

Thanks,
   Bill in malty Golden, Colorado



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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:49:52 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Temperature, carbonation, flavor and the pocket beer engine

Brewers

My mention of a pocket beer engine in today's HBD:

>When I first opened it and poured it at fridge temp, it had little head
>(although it was plenty carbonated) or smell.  A taste gave me mostly
>a little buttery diacetyl and little else except carbonation.  Just
>too cold.  So I gave it ten seconds in the microwave and a shot with
>a "pocket beer engine" (a syringe), which really opened it up.

caused some confusion.  Here are more details.

It's no news that over-chilling beer will cut down on the flavor of 
beers and often make them taste out of balance.  What's perhaps not 
as well understood is that overcarbonation can do much the same. 
Some beers (Pilsner and weizenbeer to name two) are appropriately 
drunk with higher levels of carbonation than others, but even they 
should be poured with enough vigor to reduce the carbonation from the 
bottle level and produce a head.  But beer that is too cold will even 
then hold too much carbonation.  This can result in overbalance to 
the hops and make the beer taste thin and sharp.  And certainly most 
ales, especially British and Irish ones, should be drunk at cellar 
temperature and low carbonation.

So here is where a judicious use of a microwave for a few seconds and 
decarbonation comes in.  Somehow I came up with the idea of using a 
syringe to suck up a little beer and and squirt it back into the 
glass.  I originally called this a 30 cent beer engine, then someone 
on HBD gave it the much better name of pocket beer engine.  Someone 
later pointed out that it should probably be called a pocket 
sparkler.  The agitation produces lots of foam (too much if you're 
not careful) and a nice tight head.  It also reduces the carbonation, 
making the beer taste smoother.

These are from several of my past posts:

>A pocket beer engine is a narrow outlet 5 or 10 cc syringe.  I use an oral
>irrigator.  You suck up a few cc's of beer, then squirt it back into the
>glass.  Be sure if it's very carbonated to leave lots of head space for
>foaming.  With my low carbonation, I get about 3/4 inch of tight foam.
>Someone pointed out that rather than calling it a pocket beer engine, I
>should call it a pocket sparkler.  I guess that's more accurate, but I like
>the other name.

And another

>When I'm not going to the trouble of using my beer engine, I serve real
>ales by keeping enough pressure on it to dispense (~3 psi) and then use a
>pocket beer engine (or pocket sparkler, as someone re-christened it) to
>knock out the excess carbonation and raise a head.  This is a 5-10 cc
>syringe without the needle.  You suck up a bit of beer from the glass (be
>sure to leave enough freeboard if it's very carbonated), then squirt it
>back forcefulling into the glass.  The tinier the oriface of the syringe,
>the more shear you'll have on the beer, and the more effective it is.  My
>current one is an oral irrigator from a dentist, which has a fine tipped
>curved plastic spout.

I have been known at restaurants to stir fizzy beer with a fork and 
occasionally to send it to the kitchen for a short nuke, both of 
which used to embarrass my kids.  (Be careful - commercial microwave 
ovens are more powerful than home ones, and even 4-5 seconds may be 
too much).

In the case of Bob Barrett's Irish-American Red Ale, the difference 
was remarkable, as I reported.  It turned a thin, sharp, fizzy beer 
with little taste or aroma (it was in the cold part of the fridge) to 
a smooth, complex one.  In other words, it opened it up, to use wine 
tasting terms.

One word of caution - some years ago an HBDer reported that after my 
posting this information, he tried it with a highly carbonated beer 
he had poured into a heavy glass mug.  He gave it the treatment too 
vigorously and it fobbed up over the edge and onto the table. He 
lunged forward to sip the foam off and hit his tooth on the heavy mug 
rim, chipping his tooth!

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:40:39 -0400
From: Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: Underfermented IPA

I want to thank all who have weighed in on my IPA problems.
Several people in private email suggested there may by too many
unfermentables in the recipe.  One suggestion was particularly
interesting.

Tony writes:
"Now I may be wrong, but there are lots of reports that beers made with
Alexander's LME finish high. The Extract simply contains an unbalanced (to
most  brewers) ratio of dextrins to maltose. (Something like 50/50, where
you really want 25/75)  Hence the high FG and a cloyingly sweet taste."

Several have asked for some additional info, so here goes.

OG = 1.068  FG = 1.017 and it has been bottled since March. That
does not suggest underfermentation I know.  As Mark Tumarkin suggested,
I will bring some samples to our brewclub meeting on Friday night to get
more tasters involved and better describe the problem.

Thanks again for all the help.

Dave Perez
Gainesville, FL



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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:58:01 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: RIMS Thermostat probe location

Hi,

I'm ready to assemble my rims system and would appreciate 
hearing  where others experienced with RIMS locate their 
thermostat probe.

I originally thought the best location would be at the intake of the 
rims chamber so that the thermostat would not respond if the 
intake temp was correct but it was pointed out that putting it at the 
output of the rims would assure the temp in the mash would never 
be too high (as would be the case if the heated liquid didn't reach 
the intake (thermostat) quickly enough & the chamber would 
continue to heat the liquid past the desired settings causing 
enzyme problems.

Thanks,


Gary

Gary Smith

http://www.geocities.com/dawgmando/

A mother takes twenty years to make a man of her boy, 
and another woman makes a fool of him in twenty minutes.




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