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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re.: stir plates ("Sean Richens")
  St Arnold (Ant Hayes)
  water question (leavitdg)
  Free Hops - NH Seacoast ("Christopher Tkach")
  Re: Using bread yeast for bottling (h.stearns.laseur)
  RE: Pittsburgh Brewpubs ("Dennis Lewis")
  RE: electric brewing (EdgeAle)
  stir plates ("Wayne Love")
  Home Improvement and Other Priorities (Richard Foote)
  Diacetyl (Gene Collins)
  Bruheat Boiler (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Priorities? (Beaverplt)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Five Star Chemicals (nlkanous)
  Re: stir plates & yeast damage (Mike Lemons)
  Re: RIMS thermostat + electric brewing ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Southwestern Va/Upper-east Tn/Eastern Ky homebrew suppliers? ("Audie Kennedy")


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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:32:19 -0500
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Re.: stir plates

I wouldn't worry too much about hurting yeast cells with the usual teflon
(sorry, Teflon) coated stir bar.  Yeast are pretty tough, so I'd give it a
try once or twice because the cheapo stir bars are a lot cheaper than the
fancy ones.

If you find there is something wrong that might be caused by damaged yeast,
there are variations on magnetic stir bars that have a thickened middle so
that most of the bar is off the bottom of the flask.

Get a lab supply catalogue, on-line or on paper, and look through the many
types of stir bars for the magic words "cell culture".  People do use these
for growing mammalian cells, which have no cell wall and are way, way more
delicate than any single-celled organism.

Sean Richens
srichens.spamsucks at sprint.ca





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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:41:43 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: St Arnold

I presume most of you have read story of St Arnold putting his crucifix
into a wort kettle, and instructing peasants to drink beer and not water
 - thereby ending the plague. I told this story at a dinner party a few
months ago and a doctor present said that the plague was air and not
waterborne. Does anyone know better?

Ant Hayes
Gauteng; South Africa


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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 05:13:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: water question

I brew a lot...but have paid little attention to water analysis.  

Recently I stopped by a place that filters town water...and re-sells
it.  I asked them what minerals, carbonates, etc were in the water
and the fellow wrote the following on the back of his business card:

" 7 grains hard

7.3 PH

110 T.D.S.

 .1 Iron  "

Now, I have read just enough to wonder  (Palmer says the main ions for
brewing are: Calcium, Magnesium, Bicarbonate, Sulfate, Sodium, and
Chloride).  My question is this:  What can I make of the above
'water analysis' in view of Palmer's identification of the "principle
ions" that we shoud consider in our brew water?  My guess is that
 ....well...I'm not going to guess....

 ..Darrell
<water-analysis-challenged>


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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:36:08 -0400
From: "Christopher Tkach" <tkach at mediaone.net>
Subject: Free Hops - NH Seacoast

Hi All-

I have several ounces of hops that have been eating up freezer
space for way too long.  I'd like to pass these off to someone
who will actually use them.  Below is what I got...

'97 Centennial (13.5% AA) ~ 1 oz
'97 Chinook (11.0% AA) ~ 2 oz
'99 Tettnanger (7.5% AA) ~ 4 oz
'99 Galena (14.4% AA) ~ 2 oz
'99 Cascade (6.5% AA) ~ 2 oz

All of the hops were purchased from HopTech,
the Chinook and Centennial back in Christmas
of '98, the others in Christmas of '99.

The Centennial and Chinook are sealed in plastic
containers.  The remainder are in opened barrier
bags that have been tightly rolled closed and tightly
stuffed into a sealed ziplock freezer bag together.
All of the hops have been living in the freezer since
I got them.  I just took a wiff of all 5 hops, and they
still smell!!  :-)

I'd like to give these away to a good home instead
of tossing them, so if you live in or near the seacoast
of NH, and want some free hops they're all yours.

 - Chris
Portsmouth, NH



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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:41:10 -0500
From: h.stearns.laseur at exxonmobil.com
Subject: Re: Using bread yeast for bottling


I'm not sure if Bill is talking about repitching with bread yeast or
starting a new batch with bread yeast. I've brewed with bread yeast and
have come up with some different tastes. Not bad mind you, just a little
different. What I did notice, is that if one reuses the yeast to make
another and another batch and so on, the bread yeast evolves into beer
yeast. After several batches, you have a mutated British ale or what ever
you guided your yeast to be. This also works for wine, by the way.
Cheers from a Texican



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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:49:25 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at lewisdevelopment.com>
Subject: RE: Pittsburgh Brewpubs

Micah, I can give you a few really good ones. I live about 90 minutes 
away, so I don't get to frequent them as much as possible... I'll
be brief, in case you get better info from the locals.

Here's two of the best. I like the German food at Penn better than
the regular pub fare at Church, IMO.

Penn Brewing http://www.pennbrew.com
800 Vinial St.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15212
Phone: (412) 237-9402

World Class. Try them all. Their weissbier won Gold at the
2000 GABF.


Church Brew Works http://www.churchbrew.com
3525 Liberty Ave.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15201
Phone: (412) 688-8282

You have to go, just to see the place. Pious Monk dunkel is 
really good. They have a wit and saison seasonally that is
excellent too.


Others:

Foundry AleWorks Company http://www.foundryaleworks.com
2816 Smallman St
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222
Phone: (412) 338-9050

Great beer, usually have something on handpump. Make a great
ESB. It's in a converted warehouse and has large black leather
couches for lounging. Better than home!


Valhalla  http://valhallamicrobrewery.citysearch.com
1150 Smallman Street
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219
Phone: (412) 434-0208

Liked Valhalla, haven't been in a while. Very techno modern
place with concrete and steel.


Sharp Edge Beer Emporium http://sharpedgebeer.com
302 S. Saint Clair St.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15206
Phone: (412) 661-3537

Sharp Edge has real ale, tapped on Wednesday. A bar, not brewpub.
Excellent (and I mean it) beer selection. Check the website.

'Tis a shame I don't live closer, or I'd offer to go with! ;-)

Dennis 

"I'm allergic to grass. Hey, it could be worse,
I could be allergic to beer." --Golfer Greg Norman 


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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:35:57 EDT
From: EdgeAle at cs.com
Subject: RE: electric brewing

Joe Gerteis  wants experiences with electric brewing...

>>The use of electric elements in mashing systems is  
becoming more and more common with the spread of interest in RIMS  
systems in the world of homebrew.  A quick search of the web shows  
 that many people have figured out the benefits of using immersible  
electric elements, sometimes coupled to temperature controllers,  
in the hot liquor tank.  But the use of such elements in the kettle  
is still quite rare, and consequently the possibility of putting  
together an all-electric 5 to 10 gallon (~ 20 to 40 l.) system  
remains for the most part unexplored. <<
             

I used electric heating elements in my HLT and Brew kettle (BK)  (both 1/2 
barrel  kegs)for a few years while I lived in a condo. As I didn't have a 
driveway, I had to brew inside my garage and couldn't use propoane in there 
for safety reasons (and HOA regulations). 

BK: to avoid scorching I used low-heat density "water wizard" elements from 
chromalox. The 3500W at 240V (=875W at 120V) elements are the biggest that will fit 
horizontally in a keg. I used two of them for 1750W total with pretty much 
maxed out my 15A circuit in my garage. No scorching was ever noted even in 
the lightest beers. Boils were very strong for 5 gals but not very strong for 
10 gal batches. If I were to do 10 gal regularly with this system I might add 
another element (which in my case would require it runing off a second 
circuit or a larger amp circuit).

HLT: more complicated. As wort scorching isn't an issue, I used regular water 
heater elements. The heater was connected to a surplus hot-tub heater timer. 
this allowed me to begin heating the water (which takes a long time with only 
one heater element) before I woke up (It was also filled by a cheap solenoid 
valve, Mr. Coffee timer and level control switch). The heaters were also 
connected to a 3way switch and 3 probe thermostats (type used inside control 
cord of electric grills etc. form Am. Sci & Surplus). The thermostats could 
be "experimentally" set for any temp desirde for mashing/brewing but I 
wouldbn't trust them to maintain an accurate setting (metal strips in 
workings can deform). A single thermostat would have been sufficient as a 
manual control to maintain a setting. A 25ft copper coil (3/8"od) inside the 
HLT allowed me to perform a Heat Exchange type RIMS mash. Worked fine with my 
smallish pump. Given more money I would reccommend 1/2" tubing and a bigger 
pump).

Oh, both HLT and BK also used a float switch to control 24VDC relays which 
then controlled the heating elements. This prevented the heaters from working 
unless they were covered by liquid to avoid burn-out. Although, I have 
accidentally run the BK low-heat-density elements dry w/o burnout for several 
minutes.

Later on I added a second heater element to the HLT, not on the timer, to 
decrease heating times when I didn't plan ahead (well over an hr for 10 
gals). I had a friend (who workds for homebrew) drop a 20A line into my 
garage. This also prevented circuit-breaker tripping as my BK maxed things 
out and the circuit would trip when something else was turned on., such as my 
garage beer fridge kicking in cuz I forgot to set tghe timer I had to turn it 
off during brewing, or more importantly my wife turned something on in the 
Master bedroom which was on the same circuit. Which two circuits, my HLT 
heating times were cut in half and I could begin heating the sparged wort in 
the BK while still maintaining HLT temps.

Heating times can also be reduced by adding a small stirrer to the HLT to 
keep a little convection going but I hadtrouble finding a good small motor 
and stirrer combo. Also insulate the HLT & BK with water heater insultation 
etc.

advantages: no propane, easy temp control, timer start
disadvantages: time to boil (can be as much as 2 hours w/ single element & 
full 15 gals), CA electricity prices

I now live in a house with a 2&1/2 car brewery and wide driveway so I have 
switched back to propane for the BK. The change back was to decrease boil 
times as I was going to be doing mostly 10gal batches (having twins has cut 
down on my brewing time. AlK I feel your pain). Also, the skyrocketing 
California electricity prices encouraged me greatly! I still, however, use 
electricity to maintain my HLT and HE-RIMS mash temps. Initial HLT water is 
heated in the BY and pumped to the HLT.

That's a quick description of my former electric brewery. feel free to 
contact me if you have more questions.

Dana

NOTE: I recommend electrically grounding the metal kegs AND using a GFI 
protected circuit. This is the reason for using 120V instead of 240V as 240 
GFI's cost way too much for me.

 
- ------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell
Edge Ale Brewery, Oceanside CA
http://ourworld.cs.com/EdgeAle


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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:41:13 -0300
From: "Wayne Love" <wlove at atsonline.com>
Subject: stir plates

I have been following the threads the last couple days concerning stir
plates. Where is a good source to buy them and what qualities should I be
looking for in evaluating them?

Thanks
Wayne Love
Rothesay, NB. Canada
wlove at atsonline.com




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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:15:32 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Home Improvement and Other Priorities

Darryl writes regarding Alan's recent post:

>Maybe you have a priority problem Alan - washer and dryer do not come
>before the brewery! Maybe the solution is to incorporate your brewing
>system into the new kitchen, your wife seems like a nice reasonable and
>understanding women, I'm sure she'd undertand that you need a built in
>100, 000 BTU burner in the kitchen. 

Okay, this got me to thinking, which is dangerous I know.  I once shared an
apartment with a PE and brewing partner.  We had a cold room set up in the
basement of this duplex where we lagered our beer under natural refrigeration.

Overhead, in the kitchen of this apartment, there was a sink with an extra
hole for who knows what.  Well, being men and brewers we got to thinking of
some ideas for a higher purpose for that extra hole.  We joked about
drilling a hole up through the floor, running beer lines and hooking up a
water faucet through which beer would pour forth.  We never followed
through on this "brainstorm" but, imagine it if you will...

Let's say you put in one of those single lever kitchen faucets.  A push of
the lever to the cold side and out comes a bright pilsner.  A flick to the
hot and you've got a robust porter.  Just ponder the convenience!  Drips
from the faucet after a pour--nooo problem.  Washes right down the sink.
Cleaning the beer lines?  No need to run for a saucepan or other container
to catch the cleaning solution.  Yep, goes right down the drain.   Spoiled
batch disposal?  You got the picture, easy as pie.

Discuss...


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA



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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:21:58 -0500
From: Gene Collins <GCollins at cranecarrier.com>
Subject: Diacetyl

Last Saturday, I brewed an ESB and transferred to the secondary last night.
My fermenting temperature was a bit too high. I tasted the brew and there is
a minimal diacetyl taste. While this is allowable in the BJCP guidelines, I
don't like it's flavor.

I had this problem before and cold aged the batch. It seemed I read
somewhere that the yeast will re-absorb it when cold. Fact or fiction?

Gene Collins
Broken Arrow, OK



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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:30:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Bruheat Boiler

Hello to all!
I recently received a Bruheat boiler as a gift and have been looking for
some info about it.
First off, does anyone has any indication about wiring it to a dryer
extension? The Bruheat has blue, black, and green/white wires while the
dryer thing has black, red, white, and ground wires.
Then, can anyone offer some help about calibrating the thermostat?
Also, I read something in the HBD archives about possible adjustments to
the thermostat. Does anyone have any information about this?
Thanks in advance for your help!

Alex Enkerli
6009 de Chateaubriand
Montreal Qc  H2S 2N3
Canada
(514)277-0715



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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:45:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Priorities?

Darryl Newbury believes that Alan McKay has a priority
problem. Don't believe him Alan! Every successful
homebrewer knows that keeping SWMBO happy is always
high on the priority list. Your priorities are fine,
Alan, but the solution eludes you. Fortunately, you
have named one thing that can take care of two
priorities (Keeping SWMBO happy and having a good
brewing system). My solution to your dilema lays in
your comment about remodeling the kitchen of your new
home. There is one item that you can buy for your
remodeled kitchen that will make SWMBO extremely happy
and give you a great heat source for brewing. That
item is a commercial stove. I bought a used 6 burner
Vulcan stove from a restaurant supply company. The BTU
output of just one of it's burners is more than enough
to handle the average 5 gallon brew. If I step up to
10 gallon batches I'm sure two burners will more than
do the job. 

My advice is you shouldn't mention the beer brewing
benefits of this stove to your wife. Make her think
that you want to help her step up her culinary skills
by being willing to upgrade to a commercial stove.
Then, after you have it in place you can "discover"
that it helps your brewing. This could be the ultimate
2fer. You can get more husband points and improve your
brewing system in one swell foop. Or is that fell
swoop? 

Sometimes I'm just too devious.

=====
Jerry "Beaver" Pelt

That's my story and I'm sticking to it



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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:01:43 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at home.com>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

		The Jethro Gump Report
	An abbreviated report...though nonetheless vital.

	Dr. Clayton Cone, a fan and supporter of the HBD, has recently undergone a
hospitalization, surgical procedure, and is currently recovering  at  home.
While he was very ill, he is now on the road to full recovery...I pray.
	I would ask a personal favor....that all that have benefited from Dr.
Cone's gracious and generous past participation with the HBD send a message
of "Get Well Soon" to him.
	Please send a message to  getwelldrcone at home.com  and they shall be
forwarded to him. I know it will mean a great deal to him.
Thank you,
Jethro Gump
Rob Moline




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Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:33:56 -0400
From: nlkanous at netscape.net
Subject: Five Star Chemicals

Is Five Star Chemicals still out there?
I tried their website and nothing is there.
Any help would be appreciated.
nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 00:54:39 -0700
From: Mike Lemons <ndcent at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: stir plates & yeast damage

In a recent digest, Alan Meeker says,

>Yeast are terribly resilient and, in fact, it is a pain in the butt
>when we want to open them up in the laboratory to liberate the
>"goodies" inside the yeast cells. Their cell walls are quite tough so
>the yeast cells can handle a lot of stress without breaking open. Of
>course, this is not necessarily true for unhealthy, starved, or
>otherwise stressed yeast. However, since we are talking about
>*starters* here, there is no problem whatsoever. 

It seems that everyone was talking about starters except me. I was
talking about intermittent stirring during secondary fermentation. I
am going to try some high gravity ales when the weather cools off in
the fall. I realize that the idea of building a magnetic stirrer is
really out there, but I keep hearing Captain Kirk's voice in my head
saying, "High gravity fermentation . . . The final frontier."

The stirring would not be for purposes of aeration, but rather for
rousing the yeast. With a cylindro-conical fermentor, you can just
blow in some CO2 from the bottom; It's going to be a bit trickier with
a glass carboy. 

So, the yeast would be somewhat stressed in this situation. From high
alcohol if nothing else. Do you still think that it would be OK to
knock them around a bit? 

I appreciate the information about the bottom thickness decoupling the
magnets. Obviously a problem. 

I've read the book _Barley_Wine_ by Allen and Cantwell from the
Classic Beer Series. It didn't contain very much useful information.
What would be a good yeast to use? I've heard the Scottish ale yeast
mentioned, but I've never liked Scottish ale, so I would rather use
something else. 



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Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 07:31:45
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Re: RIMS thermostat + electric brewing

Rob Dewhirst posted that the best place for the RIMS thermostat temp. probe
is downstream of the heating chamber because of the long lag if it's
located upstream of the heater and that it'll shut off the heater if the
flow gets plugged.

Rob's right.  My first RIMS had only one probe located upstream of the
heater.  During one stickly mash, the temp. upstream of the heater reached
something like 20 degF above the desired mash temp.  Also, the lag Rob
mentions with only an upstream probe will result in the mash temp.
overshooting the desired rest temp. in roughly inverse proporation to the
flow.  The main disavantage of a downstream probe location is that boost
times between rests will be much longer.  OTOH, one upstream can better
measure mash temp.  

I use a controller that has two temp. sensors located 1) downstream of the
heater and 2) in the wort-out line immediately downstream of the tun.  The
controller turns the heater on only if [temp.  at  2 < desired mash temp.] AND
[temp.  at  1 is <= the desired temp. + 2 degF].  It yeilds decent temp.
boosts rates and reduces the likelihood of scorching and grossly
overheating the wort.  The controller uses a 'puter, but two simple
thermostats type affairs could be used to provide the same function by
"ANDing" their outputs. 
- -------------

Someone asked about electic wort boilers...  I currently use a Sankey keg
with a long 4.5kW low watt density water heater element stuck thru its
side.  No scorching but I've not boiled any high gravity brews with it.
I'd hate like hell to go back to boiling with propane and SWMBO decreed the
kitchen stove off limits for brewing after I created an "wort volcano" on
its top.  Replacing the wort-soaked oven insulation was a real bitch too!  

Details on the boiler, a older one and the RIMS are via recently fixed
links at either URL below.  


c.d. pritchard  cdp at chattanooga.net
http://hbd.org/cdp/   http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 12:51:09 -0400
From: "Audie Kennedy" <audie at mounet.com>
Subject: Southwestern Va/Upper-east Tn/Eastern Ky homebrew suppliers?

I live in Wise Co. Va. and have only found one homebrew supply store in my
area, in Abingdon.  Are there any more?  I would like to find one with a
little more inventory.
Audie Kennedy



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