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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  M&F pale ale malt (ensmingr)
  Re: Rose hips? ("RJ")
  Re: Adding gelatin as a clarifying agent ("RJ")
  Inglasss vs. Gelatin ("Colby Fry")
  bud Certified CO2 (Tombrau)
  Re: Adding gelatin as a clarifying agent (Jeff Renner)
  competition beers (The Freemans)
  Re: storing yeast (Ed Jones)
  RE: Storing Yeast ("Steven Parfitt")
  Which pumpkin is which ("Steven Parfitt")
  filler wand etc ("Liam")
  sacc. rest and mash thickness ("Thomas D. Hamann")
  hops (JGORMAN)
  Brewing for competitions (Dean Fikar)
  Palm recipe? (Jan-Willem van Groenigen)
  Brew pubs in the Las Vegas area ("James R M  Gilson")
  Re: Adding gelatin as a clarifying agent ("Bill Pierce")
  making cider (Micah Anderson)


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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:10:38 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: M&F pale ale malt

Went into my favorite homebrew shop the other day to get a ~50 lb
bag of pale ale base malt and picked my favorite -- Munton &
Fison. The owner told me to look at the malt, saying it was
overmodified, and urged me to pick another brand. He also said
that the assistant brewer at a local micro (Middle Ages) was
complaining about receiving overmodified M&F. What gives? Anyone
else have problems with M&F lately?

I settled for a bag of DWC pale ale malt.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY




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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:43:41 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Rose hips?

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:53:36 -0400
From: "Kensler, Paul" <PKensler at cyberstar.com>
Subject: Rose hips?

"There has been a recent discussion lately about rose hips...  what's the
point in using them?  Do they contribute any significant flavor or aroma?
What is the flavor / aroma - like roses?  I am totally unfamiliar with them
 - what are they generally used for?  Are the hips from different kinds of
roses significantly different from each other?"

Paul,

Rose hips have a tangy yet sweet flavor and can be used fresh, dried, or
preserved.
They are very high in Ascobic Acid, an antioxidant (vitamin C), used both as
a preservative and as a way to lower wort pH. Use very sparingly when
lowering wort pH, as too much ascorbic acid will lend a citrus flavor to the
finished beer.  In powdered form use 1/2 teaspoon per 5 gallons of Ascobic
Acid to protect aging beer from oxidation.

The simplest use is to steep the rose hips for a tea. Rose hip syrup, puree,
jam, jelly, and sauce can be used as is or as a flavoring in other recipes.
The hips are usually left on the bush until after the first frost when they
are bright red and slightly soft.

To prepare, trim off the blossom and stern ends with scissors, cut in half
lengthwise, remove the tiny hairs and seeds in the center, and rinse. Never
use aluminum utensils or pans as they tend to destroy the vitamin C.

To dry the hips, simply spread the prepared halves in a single layer on
screens or trays and place in a dehydrator, an oven on the lowest setting,
or in a dark, dry, well-ventilated place. Store in glass jars in a dark,
cool place.

Rose hip puree is often added by the spoonful to soups, cereals, juices,
fruit salads, and sauces or spread on bread to provide extra vitamin C. To
make, simmer 2 pounds prepared fresh hips in 1 quart water until tender, or
about 20 to 30 minutes. Puree in a food mill or processor and store in a
covered container in the refrigerator.





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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:02:19 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Adding gelatin as a clarifying agent

Walter J Doherty <wjd at U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
"I racked a batch of amber into the secondary fermenter about a week ago
and added gelatin into the beer as I was siphoning.  I followed the
directions for use and everything, first dissolving in warm water, not
boiling, and poured it into the mix.

The problem is, it's been a week now and I still see globs of gelatin
floating around in the carboy.  Have I done anything wrong, is there
anything I can do, or will it clear up in the next week or so?"

Wally,

Sounds like you may not have heated the gelatin enough... When mixed with
water it should be heated to ~160F (stirring constantly) so that the gelatin
is fully melted into the water... When done correctly, the spoon that you
are stirring it with should let the mixture roll off of it just like, well,
water... Not syrupy in any way.  (If you overheat it, toss it out an try
again).

If you didn't do it quite this way, you can do it one more time.   I'd
recommend, racking again and adding it while still warm, keeping it covered
until pouring it in.





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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:56:05 -0400
From: "Colby Fry" <colbyfry at pa.net>
Subject: Inglasss vs. Gelatin

I have never used Inglass before (gelatin is my thing), but I read somewhere
that if used properly Inglass is better(clearing and compacting the yeast on
the bottom). Sooo, I got some inglass and followed the directions and
transferred my beer to the secondary(on top of the inglass solution). 5 days
later the inglass "goop" is still floating on top of the beer, but some of the
suspended particles are on the bottom. Question, whats up with the goop? Does
it stay at the top or will it eventually fall? the package says wait two
weeks, but patience is not one of my virtues. I never had any problem with
gelatin, any comments/discussions about inglass vs. gelatin or is there a
better/easier solution? Thanks for any comments public or private.
Colby Fry
colbyfry at pa.net








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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:51:13 EDT
From: Tombrau at aol.com
Subject: bud Certified CO2

Good Day Brew Pals:

I work in a small brewpub that (sadly) serves bud. bud has a new campaign for 
"budweiser Certified CO2". Using a full color pamphlet and catch prases like: 
"Increase your customers satisfaction with a new level of freshness and 
quality" , "the ultimate draught experience" and "pure and simple".

The only real facts seem to be they're  CO2 is 99.99% pure and the cylinders 
are "super cleaned" by an inverted vacuum process.

I am not one to jump on a bud bandwagon but do recall a conversation with 
George Fix about why a full keg preserves so much better than a half full 
keg. Mr. Fix presumed that the impurities in CO2 caused quicker deteriation 
with the bigger volume of CO2 in a less than full keg. This conversation  was 
recalled the instant I saw the bud brochure.

What do you think?

Cheers

Tom Moench
Big Belly Brewery
Orlando Fl.


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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:54:33 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Adding gelatin as a clarifying agent

Walter J Doherty <wjd at U.Arizona.EDU> of Tucson, AZ writes:

>I racked a batch of amber into the secondary fermenter about a week ago
>and added gelatin into the beer as I was siphoning.  I followed the
>directions for use and everything, first dissolving in warm water, not
>boiling, and poured it into the mix.
>
>The problem is, it's been a week now and I still see globs of gelatin
>floating around in the carboy.  Have I done anything wrong, is there
>anything I can do, or will it clear up in the next week or so?

While you avoided boiling it, did you heat it until it turned clear? 
In other words, until it was definitely all hydrated?  I am 
suspicious you may not have, as it always works for me.  The beer 
clears within hours.  If you did heat it until it cleared, then I'm 
not sure what the problem may have been.  Was it done fermenting, or 
at least almost?  I suppose it might be yeast you see globs of.

You say that you avoided boiling.  This is often advised with the 
warning that boiling will denature the proteins in the gelatin, 
making insoluble lumps.  While boiling can produce these lumps (I 
guess this isn't your problem since you didn't boil it), it is 
probably due to localized dehydration of the gelatin.  It is *NOT* 
due to denaturing the protein.  Gelatin *is* denatured protein - it's 
hooves, tendons, bones etc. that have been boiled for hours.  Any 
proteins that are going to be denatured already have been.

This came up recently on OzCB (The Aussie equivalent of HBD) and has 
come up on HBD several times before.  I myself made the claim back in 
the mid 90's, and Pierre Jelenc (I think) set me straight.  BTW, I 
wonder what has become of Pierre?  He used to be source of lots of 
very good information.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:13:17 -0500
From: The Freemans <potsus at Bellsouth.net>
Subject: competition beers

Dennis, you have put in writing much better than I the reasons for my
interest in homebrew.  I brew for myself first, my friends next, and
then for comps.  (Of course there is that brew gadget streak that takes
most of the precedence.)  I refuse to drink something that I do not
like, much less brew it.  I can appreciate other styles, but they
sometimes don't fit my palate.  I still enter the occasional comp to see
how what I brew stacks up, but I have no preconceived notions that I may
win.

Thank you for a well written explanation that I have never really been
able to put my finger on before.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
K P Brewery - home of "the perfesser"
Birmingham, AL




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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:21:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at sdl.psych.wright.edu>
Subject: Re: storing yeast

> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:50:08 -0400
> From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com>
> Subject: storing yeast
> 
> 
> Thanks for the replys on beers going to judging. All good observations!
> 
> No one answered my question about storing yeast. I split a starter and am
> storing it in the fridge in a quart bottle. Should I pour off the beer and
> add some distilled water? Does the yeast sitting on all that alcohol get
> damaged?
> 
>  I plan on using the yeast in about a month, restarting, splitting it again,
> and using it in December. I try to get three fermentations out of one yeast
> pack.

Last weekend I brewed 10 gallons of a brown ale that uses ringwood ale yeast.
The yeast was saved from the secondary of a beer 7 weeks prior in a quart
mason jar in my fridge. I stored it under a little of the beer. I decanted
the beer and poured the slurry into a starter. I stepped it up to about 
1/2 gallon starter and it worked like a champ. This may not be ideal, but
it seems to work well for me. YMMV. 

- -- 
Ed Jones

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am 
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:18:30 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Storing Yeast

David Craft asks about storing yeast

>No one answered my question about storing yeast. I split a starter and >am 
>storing it in the fridge in a quart bottle. Should I pour off the >beer and 
>add some distilled water? Does the yeast sitting on all that >alcohol get 
>damaged?
>I plan on using the yeast in about a month, restarting, splitting it 
> >again, and using it in December. I try to get three fermentations out >of 
>one yeast pack.

I have had up to six yeasts in my refrigerator at one time doing this. I 
leave the wort on the yeast, and pour it off before starting the next 
starter. I just started a Porter (1.064) and Pumpkin Porter (1.092) with 
Wy1028 that was originally purchased last November. This yeast has beenused 
for (1) an Amber Ale, (2) an IPA, (3)A second IPA, (4) a third IPA, (5) the 
Porter, and (6) the Pumpkin Porter.

When I make a starter, I use 90% of it for the beer. The remaining 10% I 
build back up with fresh starter, and put in the refrigerator until I need 
it again.

This will probably be the last beer from this batch of yeast. I will buy a 
new pack of WY1028 before starting another beer with it. I have been told 
that WY1028 tends to mutate after 3-5 batches, and I'm not going to push my 
luck any further.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:23:33 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Which pumpkin is which

Someone posted a couple of days ago about not getting much pumpkin flavor in 
their Pumpkin Ale. I suspect they used the wrong pumpkin.

If you are going to make a pumpkin beer, be sure NOT to use Jack-o-Lantern 
Pumpkins. These are not hybridized for cooking. I have seen small ones in 
the store marked "Cooking Pumpkin". This is a misnomer. These pumpkins SUCK 
for cooking. They look neat, but they are not cooking pumpkins. Use the 
pastey tan pumpkins. While much harder to find, they have way more flavor 
than the J-o-L pumpkins.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:42:15 +1000
From: "Liam" <lthomps2 at bigpond.net.au>
Subject: filler wand etc


From: "Badger/DJ Sable/Project Mercury" <badger at badger.cx>
Subject: shower wand bottle filler

>>Could you maybe post some pictures?

Sure; I haven't taken any photos, but edited a couple of  images off the
packaging which  look pretty accurate.
I put them on http://users.bigpond.net.au/liam/

Thanks for response on roast grains question. Looks like cracking is the way
to go.

Liam




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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:10:04 +0930
From: "Thomas D. Hamann" <tdhamann at senet.com.au>
Subject: sacc. rest and mash thickness

Hi guys,
Gregory Noonan in 'New Brewing Lager Beer' says the duration of the sacc. 
rest affects fermentability and flavour and that a 120 minute mash is going 
to eke out every bit of diastatic power that the malt has to offer. A 2 
hour mash at 149 F (65 C) is going to give a beer with a lower FG than a 45 
minute mash at the same temp.

     Therefore can I assume that if I do a 120 minute mash at 69 deg C (156 
F) I will have a beer that attenutes well but is still high in dextrins or 
maybe maltier than a mash held at 65 deg C (149 F) for 45 minutes.
The same thoughts I have with mash thickness e.g. a thick mash = dextrinous 
wort. But what if I mash for 2 hours! Surely if I do the
1. thickest mash possible
2. at 69 C and
3. rest for 2 hours plus...
 ...I won't have a thin flavourless bodiless beer !

I'll add that I am aware that the degree of attenuation doesn't dictate 
maltiness (or lack there of).

     Any thoughts?

Thomas
(ruelps) 



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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:38:00 -0400
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: hops

I know hop rhizomes are best planted in the spring but I am not patient enough
to wait.  Does anyone know where I can purchase rhizomes for a fall planting?
I am looking for Horizon and Mt. Hood plants.  By the way, what are the
advantages/disadvantages spring vs. fall planting?






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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:52:03 -0700
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at swbell.net>
Subject: Brewing for competitions

Well, I'll add my $0.02 here, too.  I've been entering competitions for
about 3.5 years now and enjoy doing so.  One thing I've learned is that
judging ability varies widely and sometimes doesn't correlate with
experience.  Some of the most ridiculous score sheets I've gotten have come
from nationally ranked judges and some of the most useful have come from
lightly experienced non-BJCP judges.  I'd say that the group that seems to
do the best overall are the professional brewers.  They know their beer and
beer styles and they don't seem to imagine a lot of flaws that aren't really
there.

It is not unusual for me to enter the same beer in more than one competition
and the scores are often quite different, almost like two very different
beers are being judged.  If you think that you got bad feedback in a
competition then enter it in another.  If the same flaws show up, however,
then you can be pretty sure that the judges are on track.  As an example, I
entered a Dortmunder in a local competition this spring.  The judges found
all kinds of flaws, gave it a 22 or 23, and didn't pass it to the second
round.  The same beer won the gold medal in the AHA NHC 3 months later,
scoring 43-45 in both rounds with no real flaws being found by several
certified and national judges.  Could it have a been a bad bottle the first
time?  Maybe, but the other 50 were fine and, I might add, the beer was hand
delivered to the first competition and endured a 4 day UPS truck trip in the
middle of a hot summer to get to the NHC finals.  I have some other similar
examples as do many other experienced brewers, I'm sure.

Let's face it, judging beer is very subjective and a lot of factors come in
to play.  The ordinal position in the flight is important.  For example, the
first beer out of the box is prone to get a middling score since the judges
haven't compared it to any others so far.  A very experienced judge can
usually adjust for this but many can't.  Conversely, if your beer is judged
after a bad beer or beers there can be some taste carryover or palate
fatigue that affects the score.  Palate fatigue is a particular problem with
smoked beers.

I think the bottom line is that in any reasonably sized competition you
won't win with a medal with a bad beer but the converse is certainly not
true.  The best beer in the world may not win any given event.  If you think
you got bad feedback but aren't sure then enter your beer in at least one or
two other competitions.


Dean Fikar
Ft. Worth, TX



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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:15:44 -0700
From: Jan-Willem van Groenigen <groenigen at ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Palm recipe?



Hi all,

as a Dutchman living (and brewing) in California, my wife brought me back 
some Belgian beers from her trip back home. Last night I drunk a 'Speciale 
Palm', which used to be one of my favorite beers, and I was struck by how 
different it was from anything I have tasted here in the U.S. Hops are 
virtually non existent, there is a sweetish tone, and sometimes it's almost 
like it tastes a little bit oxidated (slight 'sherry-taste'). Since I only 
recently started brewing, I don't have a clue how I can brew a beer like 
this. Is there anybody who has a recipe for a Palm - style beer? I would be 
forever greatful...

Thanks, Jan Willem.



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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:33:55 -0400
From: "James R M Gilson" <JIMKATZOO at email.msn.com>
Subject: Brew pubs in the Las Vegas area

I am heading out from Florida to Vegas next week. I have seen a few brew
pubs listed in the Celebrator Beer News. My question is, does anyone know of
a couple of better than average places? I will be looking for beer engines,
and fresh beer. I will also be looking for a place to stock up on beers to
bring home. Any ideas on this also? Thanks, Jim Gilson




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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:46:03 -0500
From: "Bill Pierce" <BillPierce at aol.com>
Subject: Re: Adding gelatin as a clarifying agent

In HBD #3740 Wally Doherty asks about how to add gelatin finings so as not
to have gelatin globules in the beer.  My experience with finings, both as a
homebrewer and a sometime pub brewer, is that it is best to mix them
extremely well with water before adding to the beer.  Stir a package of
unflavored gelatin into about a pint of very hot water and then mix in a
blender on the high setting for at least 30 seconds.  Also stir the beer
well after adding the finings. This helps to disperse the gelatin and
prevent clots.  I recommend the same procedure for isinglass, which I
actually prefer to gelatin as a fining agent.

Cheers!

Bill Pierce
Cellar Door Homebrewery
Now in Highwood, IL




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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:14:32 -0400
From: Micah Anderson <micah at riseup.net>
Subject: making cider


Hello,

I grabbed a 1 gallon jug of organic flash pasteurized apple cider the other
day because I had a packet of champaigne yeast to try my hand at making some
hard cider. I activated the yeast, dumped it in, plugged the jug with my
airlock and waited...and waited... no bubbling. Hmm. So I searched through
old HomeBrew digest and saw people talking about adding honey to get things
going because the sugar level is low typically. So I dumped in a bunch of
sugar and some ascorbic acid (about 1/4  tsp) and then stuffed the airlock
back in. A day or so later I've got some serious bubbles. Exciting!

Now it has been a couple days and the bubbles are going strong, they may be
slowing a bit. How long should I let them go? I've read some things about if
you let them go too long you wont have any carbonation, but I am also afraid
that if I bottle, they'll blow. Should I wait until they've stopped bubbling
to bottle? When I bottle should I add anything? After they've bottled, how
long should I leave them before I can have a taste? There is going to be a
lot of sediment isn't there? :)

Thanks!
Micah



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