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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Rusty stainless ("Jack Schmidling")
  Re: Brewing for Competitions (Spencer W Thomas)
  scoring competition 20/50 or 20 out of 100 (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Re-brewing for competition? (Robert Paolino)
  Brewing binges and forgetfulness... ("Lawrence H. Smith")
  Mead ("David Craft")
  Unable to Contact (Ray Kruse)
  Re: Judging Beers ("Drew Avis")
  Re: Thermal mass calc for promash ("Dr. John")
  roll call (Pat Babcock)
  Re: Home made German Pretzels? (Jeff Renner)
  Re;  Pilsner Urquell ("Bill Frazier")
  Budvar undermodified malt (stpats)
  re: Home made German Pretzels?/ ("Stephen Alexander")
  Finishing a RIS ("Charley Burns")
  RE: Pretzels (Bob Sheck)


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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:19:58 -0500
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Re: Rusty stainless


Phil Wilcox wrote:

>How do you rust a Stainless Steel keg?

Very easily.  Scrub it vigorously with a wire brush and then mount it on a
post and call it a mailbox.

My son-in-law made me the neatest mailbox  out of a quarter barrel a few
years ago and I was dumbfounded to find rust growing on it.  I ended up
varnishing it to save it.  When I discussed his clean up program, we
concluded that the wire brush had transfered rustable iron to the surface
and really messed it up.

js

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
Home Page:Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Sausage, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf







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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:42:35 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Brewing for Competitions 

>>>>> "Marc" == Marc Gaspard <mgaspard1 at kc.rr.com> writes:

    Marc>   That said, some judges, especially
    Marc> if they're in the same club as you and know your beer, may
    Marc> recognize it.  Some may excuse themselves from judging that
    Marc> cate- gory, others may go ahead and judge and try to be as
    Marc> impartial as possible.

This has happened to me, probably a couple of times.  And probably an
equal number of times, I've thought I recognized a beer or mead, and
then found out later that it was not what I thought it was.

In the case where I "knew" who had brewed a particular beer, I would
try to not let it affect my judgement.  And I kept in mind the
probability that it was really NOT what I thought it was, anyway. I
believe and hope that I managed to stay impartial in those rare
cases. (The other judge(s) on the table help to keep us all honest, too.)

=Spencer


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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:18:24 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: scoring competition 20/50 or 20 out of 100

Hi,

Is it possible to mention scoring results as 20/50 (20 pts out of the
maximum 50 pts). In some competitions (at least in The Netherlands) the
maximum score is 100 pts. So >Come on folks a 19 is a pretty bad beer.
I've continued to drink this beer myself>.I wouldn't.
Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema  http://www.hopbier.myweb.nl/



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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:32:51
From: Robert Paolino <rpaolino at execpc.com>
Subject: Re-brewing for competition?

Subject: Fwd: Re-brewing for competitions
Reply-To: nowgohaveabeer at brewingnews.com
X-Mailer: Opera 5.12 build 932

Third try-- I think I finally have everything under 80 characters

18 Sep 2001 07:07:46 -0400 "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> HBD'd:


>HOMEBREW Digest #3739		      Wed 19 September 2001
[snip]
>Subject: re: brewing for contests
[snip]
>least as much as possible. With some styles, such as hefes and bitters, 
>you might want to brew a new batch for the competition so that you can
>present the judges with a fresh beer in its prime. This is permitted (or
>even encouraged) by some competitions (such as MCAB), but check 
>the competition rules to be safe.

If the competition explicitly permits it, it's hard to blame someone for
taking advantage of the opportunity.  That said, I think allowing it is
a bad idea. 

Ethical dilemmas aside (well, not completely put aside), if you re-brew
you're entering a different beer in the second round, not the beer that
got you there.  Remember that we're talking about homebrewing.  In a 
commercial brewery, there's a reasonable expectation of consistency
from one batch to the next.  Not so under homebrewing conditions, 
except perhaps for a few elabourate homebreweries.

Now for some of those ethical dilemmas.  Say that you re-brew and 
you're not as pleased with the new batch.  You still have the option
of going back to the original... OR have you morally committed yourself 
to using that second batch because you brewed that recipe again for 
the express purpose of reproducing the original competition
freshness of the first?  Does it reflect on your skills, technique, or luck
that you weren't able to do it as well the second time?  Was your _first_
one (the first round winner) a fluke?

On the other hand, if the second batch is better, and you were able to
pass the test of the first round with even the "lesser" beer, more power
to you.  Well, perhaps.  Did you attempt to do everything the same as 
you did for the first round winner?  There's certainly some incentive to
do that--why screw around with success?  But maybe you got back those
first round score sheets and read the judges' comments about minor flaws 
in those beers, perhaps with suggestions for correcting them.  Do you go
back and do it the very same way you did the first time, or--considering the 
expense of ingredients, your time, and that you'll have another five or ten 
gallons of the stuff--do you want to try to fix those problems?  I sure
would, 
at least for the purpose of having a couple more cases of good beer in the 
house.  But is it fair to do so according to the rules of the competition to 
enter that beer in the second round?  Maybe, maybe not. 

Now THERE'S an idea for a competition, or at least a homebrew club
exercise!  The entrants submit their beers for judging and get the 
scoresheets back.  But this is a two stage competition--for all entrants,
not just the top scoring ones. The entrants are explicitly instructed--not
merely allowed--to brew another batch with the task being to address the 
shortcomings identified by the judges.  Then the new beers get judged.  
Winners are determined by some weighting of absolute scores and 
improvement in scores from one round to the next.

[Back to that fairness question:  Every first round winner may not have
an equally feasible opportunity to re-brew.  Should a potentially better 
beer (appropriate recipe and technique)--at the time of the first round
judging--save for the time-related deterioration (which happens even
to world class commercial beers) by second round,  lose out to some
arguably lesser beer that is simply fresher because the brewer made more 
between rounds and is entering a different beer?  Remember, this is two 
different rounds of the same championship; it's not the situation of 
different competitions where a brewer finds s/he receives significantly
different scores at each of them from among different universes of entries.]


Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino
Columnist, Great Lakes Brewing News
Member, North American Guild of Beer Writers
   Winner (Silver), 2000 Quill and Tankard Awards, Travel Feature
Great Lakes Brewing News advertising information: 800.474.7291




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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:21:57 -0400
From: "Lawrence H. Smith" <lsmith at sover.net>
Subject: Brewing binges and forgetfulness...

Not forgotten exactly, but had a hard time facing up to getting things
clean enough to bottle a batch...

Procrastination
Porter

Brewed 1/12/97
1.5 lbs Choc Malt
8 lbs laaglander DME
1/2 oz Tettenager plug 3.5 hours (including steeping the choc malt)
1 oz Kent Goldings pellet 1 hr
1/4 Oz Tettenager plug 15 Min
1/8 Oz Tettenager plug 5 Min
1/8 Oz Tettenager plug 0 Min
1 lb Brown Sugar
OG 1.076-ish
ale yeast, dry
1/18/97 1.044
3/9/97 1.040
 ...
7/26/2001 1.035-ish
~5.5%ABV
1/2 cup dextrose
4.5 gallons bottled

 -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker
 -lsmith at sover.net      Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by.




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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:37:48 -0400
From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com>
Subject: Mead

Greetings,

I made a Still Dry Blackberry Mead the last week on August, left town for a
week and came back and transferred. I transferred again last night. The
first transfer (on the fruit for 10 days) was with the fruit and yeast all
over the place so I did not think tasting it would tell me much then. I had
a chance to taste it last night and has cleared well. I have read that you
should not leave the mead on the fruit for too long.

The mead has a nice dark blue color and good mid range balance of alcohol
and fruit. When I transferred the mead off of the fruit, the skin color was
bleached out of the fruit. The top of the bucket was covered with a mass of
floating almost white blackberries.  I think this has led to a tannin bite.
There is a question here.........Will this tannin bite age out? It is not
overwhelming, but does distract from the sweet and fruity flavor. What would
happen if I put this in a Corny and carbonated?  Would that balance things.
I like still meads, so I don't think that is what I want to do.

Thoughts from the mead experts?


David B. Craft



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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:58:55 -0400
From: Ray Kruse <rkruse at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Unable to Contact

Sorry to post this to the HBD, but I have no other means to tell Phil
Yates that his email account is denying me the ability to send him
email.

Hope all is well with him and his job search, and please keep us posted
on the wort kits.  

Ray


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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:12:39 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Judging Beers

Nathan shares a competition entry experience:

"I recently entered a beer into a competition.  ... The judges at
this particular competition recorded some rather derogatory comments about
the "appearance" of the beer in the bottle.  Every comment thereafter could
be linked to their initial perception that this was a bad beer because of
the way the bottle "appeared" at the table.  The overall score was a 19."

Nathan, if you feel that your beer was mis-judged, you should complain to
the contest organizer and the BJCP (the judges should be listed on your
feedback form, if they used the BJCP standard).  At the very least it will
help the organizer brief the judges on bias for the next comp.  I've had the
opposite experience at a competition - under "appearance" a judge actually
wrote: "Clean up your bottles!  This is beer, not chopped liver!"  (Why you
would keep chopped liver in a dirty bottle is still not clear to me.)  The
beer went on to score very well.

At another competition I was judging at, an entry's bottles were encrusted
in drywall dust and were absolutely filthy.  It won BOS, and at the awards
ceremony the brewer revealed that he had accidentally drywalled the batch of
barleywine behind some stairs for 5 years, only to uncover it in later
renovations.  This beer made it through three rounds without its bottle
biasing the judges.

I'm sure most folks who have helped out at competitions have simliar
stories.  Good judges do not judge a book by its cover, and I agree with
Joel wholeheartedly that there are advantages to having the judges pour the
entries.

Drew Avis, Merrickville Ont ~ http://strangebrew.ca




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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:21:56 -0500
From: "Dr. John" <drjohn17 at home.com>
Subject: Re: Thermal mass calc for promash

<Casey> Guys, I was wondering what the thermal mass variable was in ProMash
and found this on the site. I saw a question a while back. Hope it helps.


I've always used between 0.200 and 0.300 for the thermal mass of a 5 gallon
picnic cooler in ProMash. (Generally, the thermal mass accounts for the
vessel's ability to cool the mash down.) I found this by experimentation.
One way you could be exact would be to add your mash water to the vessel a
little hotter than desired. Then let the mash water cool to the desired
temperature. Since the vessel will warm up to that temperature, you can set
your thermal mass to 0.000 for all intensive purposes. (Thanks for the tip,
Bruce.)

John
Baton Rouge, LA



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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:07:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: roll call

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

If you have your website hosted on the HBD Server, but did not
receive a mailing from the webmasters mailing list 09/27/01, you
need to send me your name, email address and the URL of the site
we are hosting. It is imperative that we are able to reach all
webmasters on the HBD server. It is also important that you
contact the Janitors with new information if yours has changed.
In particular, I need the information for the following as your
current addresses are bouncing:

  o Atom Mashers
  o Hudson Valley Homebrewers
  o Mark Riley - Recipator

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday





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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:05:18 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Home made German Pretzels?

Please note that this post is Copyright 2001 by me because I intend 
to us it as a basis for a Zymurgy article.  Remember, you saw it here 
first!  I welcome feedback that may help me make the article better.

Ray - what do you think?  Good article topic?

 -=-=-=-=-=-

In Homebrew Digest #3746, "Brian M Dotlich" <BMDotlich at cs.com> of 
Dayton OH wrote:

>In keeping with the spirit of Octoberfest, I was wondering if anyone knows
>of a recipe for German soft pretzels?

Just happen to have one here in my pocket.  This is an recipe from an 
old German baker here in Ann Arbor that I got via a fellow baker.  (I 
have a wholesale French bread "micro-bakery"). My friend got it about 
30 years ago and started his business by making these and selling 
them on Saturday mornings to the huge football crowds heading to 
Michigan Stadium.  Did pretty well.  I have made up to 20 dozen with 
a crowd of volunteers for our elementary school's ice cream social as 
a fund raiser.  They go like hotcakes, err, well more like hot 
pretzels, I guess.

A few quirky things about pretzels.  First, in order to get that 
distinctive pretzel flavor, you have to simmer them a short time in 
lye water.  Otherwise, they are just funny shaped soft salt bagels. 
Strangely, after they are baked, the lye disappears.  perhaps the 
acidity of the dough neutralizes it.

It isn't a dangerously strong solution (1 Tablespoon [15 ml] dry lye 
flakes per quart (liter) of water, but you don't want to get it in 
your eyes, and even on the skin it can irritate.  If you are making 
these with children, it's best to use a baking soda (sodium 
bicarbonate) solution.  Of course, you need much more baking soda to 
get the same flavor.  I suppose 1/4-1/2 cup per quart.  It's been a 
long time since I used soda - our kids are grown now.

Another thing is that after you simmer them, you need to bake them on 
a non-aluminum cookie sheet, and as they are wet, they will want to 
stick like crazy.  It helps to drain them a moment on an old tea 
towel before placing them on the cookie sheet.

The old German non-stick solution was to melt bee's wax onto the 
sheet.  The flavor of bee's wax is actually a traditional part of 
these old pretzels, but I prefer to use silicon-treated baker's 
parchment.  You can get this in rolls at kitchen stores.  I get it in 
boxes of 1000 18"x24" sheets.  Perhaps a friendly baker in your town 
would give you a few sheets.  I don't suppose I need to tell you what 
you can offer in return.  I also suspect that a modern non-stick 
cookie sheet might work, but 25 years ago, I tried a Teflon coated 
sheet and they stuck to that.  Make sure it's lye-proof.

Pretzel salt is an important part of the authentic pretzel 
experience.  It is composed of coarse pellets about a millimeter 
across and looks rather like sleet.  Perhaps you could get those for 
the same exchange as the parchment from a friendly baker who makes 
pretzels.  Otherwise, kosher salt or other coarse salt will work, but 
these are flakes and not as appropriate.

The milk and shortening (I'm sure the original recipe used lard) and 
all-purpose flour are key to making these soft - don't use bread 
flour.  Some amounts are by weight.  This is much more sensible than 
volume, and European home recipes use this.  I hope you have a scale 
for your hops and grains.  Otherwise, the ingredient packages may 
help convert to volume.

This recipe works well in a large mixer or food processor, and I have 
formatted the recipe for this (see note for hand).

***********

Recipe
German Soft Pretzels
Makes 1 dozen

o 2 packets dry baker's yeast
o 1/4 cup water 105-115 degrees F (40-45C)
o 1 ounce dry milk powder
o 3 ounces shortening
o 1/4 cup sugar
o 1 teaspoon (5 ml) salt
o 19 ounces all purpose flour (about 4 cups)
o enough additional water to make a soft dough - about 1 cup (note - 
my notes say 3/4 cup, but I think this is a mistake - I'll make up a 
batch sometime soon and check).

Rehydrate the yeast in the 1/4 cup warm water and a pinch of sugar. 
Be sure to use a container like a plastic cup that won't suck all the 
heat away.  It should foam up in a few minutes.

Mix the rest of the dry ingredients in the mixer bowl or food 
processor *.  Add the yeast water when it's well hydrated and foamy, 
then turn on the mixer or processor and add water until you get a 
soft dough.  Continue mixing according to manufacturer's instructions 
until well kneaded.

*  If you make the dough by hand, add the rehydrated yeast and other 
ingredients with half the flour to a large bowl, stir with a wooden 
spoon until mixed, then stir in as much of the rest of the flour as 
possible, then turn out onto a work surface and knead in enough of 
the rest of the flour to get a soft dough and knead it until it is 
elastic and smooth, about five minutes.

Let the dough rise covered until doubled, probably 30 minutes with 
all this yeast.

Now prepare the lye water.  Put cold water in a non-reactive pot, add 
1 tablespoon lye crystals (like Red Devil) for each quart.  Add the 
lye to the water, not the other way around!  Use normal precautions. 
You're big boys and girls.  Bring to a simmer.

Preheat the oven to 400 degrees F.

When the dough is doubled, divide into 12 equal pieces, roll out into 
18" lengths, then twist into pretzel shape.  This is easy to do but 
hard to describe with pictures.

Start with the dough in an upside-down "U", then cross the legs twice 
into a double twist.  Next flip the top down over the legs and press 
each part of the loop onto the legs where they cross, making a tack 
weld.

Set aside on a towel and shape the rest of the pieces.  Then starting 
with the first one and using a slotted ladle or spatula (not your 
fingers), immerse each pretzel in the simmering lye water for 30 
seconds to one minute.  They should expand and begin to float. 
Remove it and place on a wet tea-towel to drain and sprinkle with 
pretzel salt.

Now arrange on prepared cookie sheet (you will probably need to use 
two cookie sheets and bake one at a time) and bake until done.  In my 
oven, this takes about 9 minutes.  While they are cooling a bit, pour 
yourself a well deserved pint and then enjoy the pretzels.

These freeze quite well when cool.  Thaw them and pop them into the 
oven to reheat or gently microwave them if you must.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 03:59:56 -0500
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re;  Pilsner Urquell

Braam Greyling wrote "I have tried to replicate Pilsner Urquell for a long
time. Although I brew a very good Pilsner....I firmly believe, the reason
that my Pils differs from PU is that I dont have the Czech undermodified
malt. I think the combination of good quality undermodified malt AND
specific mashing schedule give the PU a very unique taste.  Any thoughts on
this ?"

I bet that if you use PU's exact same malt that your beer will turn out
different in flavor.  There are so many variables to control and brewing
small scale like we do making homebrewed beer is one of the major
differences.  When I used to make pharmaceuticals for a living there was
always concern that a product manufactured laboratory scale would be
different when scaled up to production scale.  Same is true for cooking,
winemaking and brewing beer.  Just be glad you brew a very good pilsner.
It's difficult to brew excellent light colored beers.

Best regards,

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas





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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:47:49 -0500
From: stpats <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: Budvar undermodified malt

I can now provide a little more information about Budvar malt thanks 
to the good people in Research and Development at Miller Brewing Co 
in Milwaukee. They did a complete analysis of both the well-modified 
Moravian malt and the Budvar malt (as well as several test brews over 
the past 18 months). The numbers were very much in agreement with 
those I receive from Brno but Miller did additional tests such as 
diastatic power, alpha amylase and most importantly Beta-glucans. 
Budvar malt has very high Beta-glucan content which is one reason you 
can't get away with skipping the low temp rests at 50C, and even 40C 
is a bit dicey. Brewpubs and micros have tried, and the result is one 
gooey mess.
With regards to 'what difference does undermodified make?'
Miller has tested virtually every malt available in America. It is 
not hype to say they have never seen anything like Budvar malt. Their 
question is 'Is it the barley or is it the way it's malted?' That 
question is being actively pursued.
I put Miller's specs on Budvar malt, as well as reference to the 
Edel-Helles that Miller has been brewing with it, up on the website 
last night (go to grain page).
Coincidentally, the same magazine issue of Modern Brewery Age with 
the article about Millers pilot brewery opening and the special Edel 
Helles made with Budvar malt, also has a large Czechvar logo on the 
front of the accompanying news edition. Czechvar is of course 
Budweiser Budvar. (March 26, 2001). Thanks to Dr. David Ryder (VP for 
R&D) Sue Kay the one who spearheaded the research, and Troy Ryswek, 
the brewmaster at the pilot brewery, for making their information 
available.

Lynne O'Connor
- -- 
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com


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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:55:54 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at ieee.org>
Subject: re: Home made German Pretzels?/

Brian M Dotlich asks ...

>In keeping with the spirit of Octoberfest, I was wondering if anyone knows
>of a recipe for German soft pretzels?

I've been most earnestly informed that "brezels" are more of a Swabian thing
(SW Germany) and the locals claim you can't get good ones elsewhere.  When I
was there they were typically served and eaten with butter as a side item
for lunch or an afternoon snack.  Very common in cafes/snack shops in retail
areas there.

I haven't tried this specific recipe, but I trust the book implicitly - very
good authentic recipes. ["Authentic German Home Style Recipes", by Gini
Youngkrantz, B.G.Rosenkrantz Publishing,  (800)-872-6411, no affiliation -
yada].

== ==
4 cups flour
1pkg active dried yeast
1 tsp sugar
1/2 Tbl salt
1 TBL oil
1+1/2 cup warm water
 ...
 2 tsp baking soda
 coarse salt.

[abbreviated by sja]  Flour in a bowl, and make a 'well' in the center.  Add
yeast, sugar and 2 Tbl (1fl.oz) or the water to the well.  Stir the well
ingredients only, cover and 'proof' the yeast for 10 minutes.  Add the rest
of water, salt and oil, mix well then knead till smooth.

Allow to rise until doubled in a greased bowl.  Punch down and divide the
dough into twelve portions.  Roll out by hand and form each into a brezel
shape.

Dissolve  the 2tsp of baking soda into 1+1/4 cup of warm water.  Dunk the
brezels in the soda-water, sprinkle with coarse salt and bake on a cookie
sheet at 425F for 20-25 minutes till golden brown.

Salt on the ones I've had in Germany was more like ordinary kosher salt and
not the huge white crystalline stuff on the US ones.  It was also used
sparingly - not as a coating.

 -S







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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:21:13 -0700
From: "Charley Burns" <CharleyBurns at home.com>
Subject: Finishing a RIS

Wrong yeast. You would think I'd learn after having the same problem last
year
with a big porter, but no.

OG 1.092 Russian Imperial Stout
Wyeast 1968 (yeast left over from a british pale) actively fermenting
starter.
Roaring fermentation within a few hours at 70F
Quit after 4 days FG 1.040

Its stuck right there now for 2 weeks. I'm thinking about firing up a
starter
of maybe some Scottish Ale yeast and shooting that in there. The wort tasted
fantastic, but man this stuff is too sweet at this point.

Any suggestions on a yeast to get this thing to finish at about 1.025?

Charley



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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:22:52 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: RE: Pretzels

Brian- 

Try http://www.foodtv.com/recipes/re-r1/1,6281,,FF.html

Akshooly, you can find many other recipes here too!

Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC



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---