---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Subject: Final Gravity ("Braam Greyling")
  Labelling Bottles (Ant Hayes)
  Re: Sparge water volume ("Fred L. Johnson")
  re: Lactobacillus ("Houseman, David L")
  Laboratory Immersion Cooler for Lagering Refrigrator ("Membrino, Tim")
  Covered boil off flavors ("Doug Hurst")
  CO2 cylinder certification ("Membrino, Tim")
  RE: winemaking (Brian Lundeen)
  pumpkin in a can ("steve lane")
  Palm Pilot info ("Bridges, Scott")
  Counterflow wort chiller (Jeff Hertz)
  Kegging Q's (Phil Wilcox)
  Q's from Casey (Phil Wilcox)
  Cranberry Beer ("Colby Fry")
   ("Ryan Case")
  Red wheat (Rober Johnson)
  HBD Community Red Cross Fund Status (Pat Babcock)
  Oct. 11, charitable initiatives (crossno)
  Stability (Casey)
  RE:  Final Gravity (Brian Levetzow)
  RE: Undermodified Malt ("Crouch, Kevin E")
  RE: two questions ("Crouch, Kevin E")
  RE: Sparge Water volume, hop plugs ("Crouch, Kevin E")
  Haziness (cont'd) ("Rod Milligan")
  French Method (AlannnnT)
  discolored immersion chiller ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Labels, another possibility. ("Pete Calinski")


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:08:36 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Subject: Final Gravity

From: jeff storm <stormyjeff at rocketmail.com>
- -------------------
Stormy Jeff wrote:  

Subject: Final Gravity 

Is there a formula for determining final gravity or a
style guideline for final gravity?

I am a newer brewer doing all grain and I use ProMash.
 Is there a calculation for final gravity on the
software?
- ---------------------

It is difficult to calculate your final gravity as it is a factor of how 
well your beer ferment and your original gravity. 
If you have a high original gravity and your yeast+ fermentation  is 
good, your final gravity will be higher than say a beer which started 
at a lower original gravity. Your type of yeast also plays a role, as 
some yeasts can handle more alcohol than others. 

You should rather measure your final gravity after fermentation and 
then calculate your alcohol content etc.   You will see that you can 
predict your final gravity when you know your yeast OG etc etc.  

Hope this helps. Any comments beerlings ?

Braam



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:11:40 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Labelling Bottles

There have been a couple of posts regarding labelling bottles. My
approach is two fold:

For my own information, I use a waterproof marker to write a code on the
lid (modified Dave Line approach). The first line describes the beer (L-
lager; S- stout; P; ESB; W; K; SB; B;  etc) the second line is the brew
date in a yymm format.

If I want other people to know what the beer is, I print a wrap around
label. I then glue the label to itself, using paper glue. The advantage
is that gluing paper to paper is easy, and getting the label off simply
involves tearing.

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg; South Africa


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:50:25 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Sparge water volume

Greg Remake asks if there are any advantages to not allowing the lauter tun
to run completely dry at the end of the sparge.  If I allow my system to run
"dry", the otherwise clear wort becomes filled with the particulates that
the grain bed has effectively retained up to that time.  I suspect that the
decrease in pressure on the grain bed that occurs when the bed is allowed to
dry causes the nooks and crannies to "open up" and release their retained
particles.  Consequently, I always maintain a head of water above the grain
throughout the sparge.  I do not know how characteristic this is in other
lauter systems.
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:02:22 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: re: Lactobacillus

Andrew asked:
>Subject: Lactobacillus
>But being a bacteria, what does the Lactobacillus feed on?  Dormant yeast
>cells?  We want to know, so if we decide to rack the beer before pitching
>the Lactobacillus, we don't eliminate it's "food source".  If you could
>please give us a little more info on the Bacteria, we'd appreciate it.

I've made a couple Berliner Weisses.  The approach I used to sour this wort
was the sour mash, or rather, sour wort.  Basically I made my wort, then
pitched about 1/2 lb of crushed pale malt into the wort when it cooled to
100oF.  The surface of the wort was covered and this was kept warm for
several days.  It starts to smell really bad.  But the worse it smells the
better.  After about 3 days, I heated the wort to about 170oF for 20 min to
kill off the lactobacillus, then pitched ale yeast.  This worked very well.
Quite sour, cleared wonderfully.  Lasted a long time in the bottle.  

Dave Houseman


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:49:38 -0400
From: "Membrino, Tim" <tim.membrino at cytyc.com>
Subject: Laboratory Immersion Cooler for Lagering Refrigrator

I've happily been sucked back into homebrewing after a 3 year hiautus.
During those 3 years I kept my eyes open and picked up a few freebies that I
figured might help me build-up my brewery.  One item I have is a 1 KW
Laboratory Immersion Cooler.  This is basically a small refrigeration system
with an insulated flexible tube that ends in a Stainless Steel refrigeration
coil.  There is a temperature controller built into the unit that allows for
setpoint control and an RTD feedback probe.  The intended use is to immerse
the coil in liquids for cooling.  Obviously this thing is begging to be an
immersion chiller for cooling wort.  But since my copper coil immersion
cooler works great I figure the coil could be used to create a lagering
refrigerator.

I'm thinking of insluating the space under my bar and installing the coil
with a small crossflow blower to improve convection rates.  I'm curious if
anyone with refrigeration experience sees any problems with this idea or has
any suggestions?  I don't plan to run this continually - only during
lagering periods.  Another possible use is to install my coldplate in the
refrigerated space for kegged beer dispensing.   One problem I forsee is
water vapor freezing on the coil and then dripping off when I shutdown the
system (but a strategically placed pan can handle the dripping).  I'm more
concerned that the system will be unable to accurately control the air
temperature for lagering.

Just looking for some input before I put too much energy into this.  If
nothing else I now have a really intense wort chiller!

Tim Membrino
Acton, Massachusetts


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:18:18 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Covered boil off flavors

Troy from the SF Peninsula writes:

 ..."I was wondering what kind of effects that might have *other* than on
the evaporation rate... i.e. flavor/chemical contributions - This is in
direct contrast to the usual HBers open boil where very little
condensation is returned to the boil. A minor point, I'll admit but the
wheels were spinin'!"

It is my understanding that a number of volatiles are driven off during
the boil, one being dimethyl sulfide (DMS) which can leave an unpleasant
character in ale (it's sometimes considered appropriate in lagers).
It's often described as having a 'creamed corn' flavor and aroma.  In
fact, if you collect the condensation from the boil in a glass you can
definitely smell/taste this very prominently.  I usually boil with the
lid off.  Others suggest that leaving the lid covering 5/6 of the brew
pot will be sufficient to allow the DMS to dissipate.  If that's the
case, a 'pro system' which allows some condensation back into the wort
may not pose much of a problem.

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:21:34 -0400
From: "Membrino, Tim" <tim.membrino at cytyc.com>
Subject: CO2 cylinder certification

About 5 years ago a homebrewing friend sold me a CO2 cylinder that he bought
used along with alot of kegs and other equipment.  I used the tank for about
2 years and then stopped brewing when other things in my life took over (you
all know how that goes).  I haven't been brewing for the past 3 years and am
just getting back into it so I was looking over the CO2 cylinder and
couldn't find a certification stamp.  The only possible date I've seen is
"89" that's written in black marker on the side of the tank.  I'm pretty
sure this CO2 cylinder is due for recertification but it's still mostly
full.  Is it reasonable to wait until the tank is empty before getting it
recertified or should I play it safe and purge the tank and bring it in for
certification now?  Any suggestions for where to bring the tank (I'm located
outside of Boston MA).

Tim Membrino
Acton, MA


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:08:19 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: winemaking

Casey, who actually asked 3 questions, writes:

> #2: I just recently got my dad back into making wine and I 
> was trying to
> help him out, applying some of the beer making techniques to his wine
> process. I suggested shaking his 'wort' (grape juice) before and after
> pitching and stiring it to aerate it. But he referred to the
> 'directions' which made no mention of this. Is aeration necessary for
> wine? I would imagine that the wine yeast would need it just 
> as much as
> beer yeast.

I've often wondered about this although I don't know of any winemakers doing
aeration or oxygenation before pitching. The yeast seems to take off fine
without it. I think this may be that musts (the wine equivalent of wort)
start with more dissolved oxygen because they are not boiled. When you
mention directions, I assume he is making wine from kits. When you add in
the water (which does not need to be boiled, more on that later) you will
have plenty of opportunity to splash about as you mix in the concentrate and
introduce a bit more oxygen. 
> 
> #3: In wines, how come in france they do the whole smashing 
> grapes with
> your toes thing and don't worry about infection like us beer guys do?

First of all, apart from a few rustic wines made by peasants, this practice
is not that common, although I do recall there was a rather well known port
producer that continued this technique at least as recently as a few years
ago. However, the point I want to bring out of this is that kit winemakers
have a really skewed perception of the sanitation required for winemaking.
In its most basic form, making wines from grapes, is a comparatively dirty
process. When you throw your grapes (especially reds)into your fermenter,
you may also be including some dirt, leaves, stems, insects, molds,
bacteria, and wild yeasts. When people ask if they should wash their grapes,
I say sure, if your goal is to dilute the flavours with some water. When I'm
making a big batch of red wine in my 200 liter s/s tank, I've got several
hundred pounds of grape skins floating on top that have to be mixed back
down into the juice on a regular basis. Best way I've found? Wash my arm and
just get in there with my hand. Besides being easy, its also an incredibly
sensuous feeling plunging your arm through the hot cap into the
comparatively cool frothing juice below. A lot of kit people just get
totally grossed out when you tell them this. And given that my wines win
medals at national competitions, I'll stand behind my techniques.

How do winemakers get away with this? Sulfites. At some point in time,
potassium metabisulfite will get added to the juice to contribute sulfur
dioxide (SO2), a protectant. Wines are also lower in pH than beer (they have
to be for the sulfites to work), and so are naturally less prone to
infections.

Now, if your working with really good fresh grapes (I'm talking into the
fermenter within hours of picking, not really practical unless you live
close to a vineyard), with good pH levels below 3.6 and pitch at adequate
levels, you can get away with leaving your SO2 addition until after
fermentation. 

However, most of us amateurs will get grapes in less than pristine
condition. For us, its a good idea to add the sulfite at crush so that it
starts protecting the must immediately. As long as everything you are
working with is relatively clean, that's good enough. None of which really
relates to your situation where you are working with kits. However, most
kits come pre-sulphited, or have you add it in one of their little numbered
packets. So you are getting the protection. And unless you are absolutely
certain about the cleanliness of your various equipment, you should probably
give it all a good sulphite rinse just to be safe. 

This is all a very simplified version of the winemaking process. May I
recommend rec.crafts.winemaking as a forum for learning more about
winemaking in all its forms. Understanding the process is much preferable to
simply following step by step instructions which, IMO, are geared more
toward preventing the kit purchaser from totally screwing it up as opposed
to making the best wine possible. 

Cheers
Brian


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:32:15 -0500
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa at hotmail.com>
Subject: pumpkin in a can

I didn't have time last Sat. to do an all grain batch, so I decided to go 
the extract route.  Needed to make a pumpkin brew for a party and it turned 
into a nightmare.... rather fitting for Halloween I guess.
I will ask the question and then go through my tale of brewing.
Question:  What is the proper method for using pumpkin "puree" in a can.  
This is the store bought, Libby's brand canned pumpkin meat.  No added 
flavors or any of that, just pureed pumpkin.

My story:  Wasn't sure to start with if this needed to convert or if it was 
already cooked.  Added 7 gallons to the 1/2 barrel brewpot and brought to 
154 degrees.  Added 3.3 lb. can of extract, 2 cans of diastatic and 3 large 
cans of pumpkin puree.  Let it sit for 1 hour. Figured if it wasn't 
converted out of the can, it was now.  Did the boil, all went well adding 
spice,molasses, brown sugar and hops along the way.  Boil is done... The 
nightmare begins.

Cracked open the drain valve and route throught the counterflow chiller.  
DRip, DRip, DRip.... plugged slotted copper manifold in the bottom of the 
kettle.  STir, STir, STir...  Loads of pumpkin puree, spice and wort go into 
the carboy.  I got an idea, the CFC is plugged,,, must be.  Get out CO2 tank 
and hit the infeed hose with 30 psi.  Hose flies out of the carboy and coats 
me from head to toe with pumpkin puree and wort......Hmmmmmm that wasn't the 
problem... Back to Stir STir STir and finally got 6 gallons of "wort".

Carboy had a pumpkin pie 4" deep on the bottom that floated to the top by 
the next day when ferment was rolling along.  Siphoned to a secondary and 
tossed the pumpkin gunk. Tested gravity last nite, 1010.

How do you guys use this stuff !!!
Also need advise on how to get pumpkin wort out of a new t shirt.



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:50:13 -0400
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Palm Pilot info


I am a new convert to the world of Palm Pilots (I know, what took me so
long?).  I just bought an M500.  I'm interested in locating cool brewing
related programs.  Is there a link somewhere with a list of good ones?  I'd
also like an updated BJCP guidelines for palm OS since I'm judging this
Saturday.  I know about palm.com.  I was looking for a list more targeted to
brewing, so I don't have to browse the whole 10,000....  Any other cool tips
would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Scott
Brewing and vinting in Columbia, SC





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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:01:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Hertz <duckinchicago at yahoo.com>
Subject: Counterflow wort chiller

I recently got a polarware pot with a ball valve and
wanted to upgrade to a counterflow wort chiller and
was looking for some reccomendations.  Obviously,
everyone here is honest and not looking to plug a
certain place, so I just want to know what people's
experiences have been.  So far, I've looked at the
"chillzilla" from Sabco, and the CFWC's at Morebeer,
St Pats and maybe a couple others.  They all seem
great, and are about the same price, so any opinions
would be appreciated.  I'm leaning toward the Morebeer
one, mostly because it seems to have the greatest
capacity (25 ft). 



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:17:12 -0400
From: Phil Wilcox <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Kegging Q's

Chad,

are you a real Ale fanatic? If not skip the priming and shake rattle and
roll. Keg it, seal it. put it out overnight and in the morning, hook up
your CO2 and shake the bejeezes out of it. Beer is done. (3min  at 35psi
 at 40F works great) (hint: hoook up CO2 to the beer out line for shaking.
this forced co2 to the bottom of the keg which it them bubbles up to the
top being disolved along the way ) Vent, Serve and drink. You can make
an american Wheat beer in 5 days this way. There are charts that give
you temp vs PSI to get specific levels (atmospheres) of CO2. 1.5 for
english real ales, up to 2.8 for fizzy laggers.

I typically serve from my fridge at 8 psi  from the warmer temp you have
10-12 might do you bettter. The trick with keeping your beer properly
carbonated is solve one of two ways. First balance your system to start
with. If you are refridging it pretty easy to carbonate and serve your
beer a the same PSI. this will keep you balanced at all times. If its
foamy increasing the tap line length increases the internal friction and
lowers the output force.

The other way is to carbonate the keg at room temp using the same shake
method. But don't leave the gas connected at that high a pressure. ill
venture a WAG and say at 17 lbs is the balance point. If you use 35psi
to carbonate and you want to keep 17psi but you will need to serve it
arond 8 psi, you simply bleed of by venting the keg either by the vent
on a pepsi keg lid or by using a key or screw driver on the GAS fitting.
Vent it down to nothing, reset your regulator to 8 psi and serve. When
your done, crank the regulator up to 17psi again for storage. Repeat
this every day that you use the keg...

Happy Kegging!!!

Phil Wilcox




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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:42:14 -0400
From: Phil Wilcox <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Q's from Casey

Casey,

1. the original purpose (1600's) was to raise the temp of the mash. Now
that we have thermometers, recirculating mashing systems and a
mathmatical understanding of heat tranfer ratio's we can use boiling
water additions and RIMS type system to achieve this.

A second reason is extraction ; by boiling the malt you burst open all
the available starch (and yes some tannin too) and by adding it back to
the other mash you use the remaining enzymatic power of the non-boiled
mash to convert this new starch to sugar thus increasing the system
efficiency.

The other reason is flavor . the boiling of the malt with the already
converted sugar in such a high concentration creates unique malty and
carmelized flavors. Nowadays we can make up for this by adjusting the
malt bill to add more munich and or some crystal 120.

Tannin release does occur but only in a small portion of the mash. in
theory some of this gets bound up and renedered nuetral. in any case its
not enough to worry about unless you scorch your grains while boiling...

2. Fruit wines have lots more nutrients for the yeast to "feed" on, an
advatage over beer making for sure. We make up for it by oxygenating and
adding nutrients to our wort. Proper nutrient environment for your yeast
is a very complex subject with dozens of controlable varibles. Oxygen is
just an easy one for brewers to play with... Most vintnors "push down
the cap" a couple times a day when fermenting on the skins, this is very
effective in "Airating" anyway...you are essentially correct--its just
not necessary.

3. 12.5% alcohol will kill of just about everything we 3.2-6% brewers
have to worry about...Wine yeasts are alot more agressive about out
competing the other bugs also. So much so, that over time the yeast
companies have bread yeast with a strong "killer" factor. Lallamand
labels these strains Kv-xxxx, i.e., Kv-1118.  Good to use on
questionalbe fruit or on wines that you don't want to use sulfites on...

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Homebrewer
Bumblefrog Meadmaker
Leaping Frog Vintnor
Jackson, MI (32 miles west of Jeff Renner)



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:09:24 -0400
From: "Colby Fry" <colbyfry at pa.net>
Subject: Cranberry Beer

Can anyone give me advise on using cranberries in a Christmas beer or any
beer? How much, how to use etc.. And if anyone has a recipe I would be
appreciative. I would like to add it to a weizenbock w/ OG of 1.070. Not sure
what yeast to use either. Any answers would help me. Thanks in Advance
Colby Fry
colbyfry at pa.net
"Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac."
 -Henry Kissinger










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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:24:54 -0700
From: "Ryan Case" <jcase at wrv.com>
Subject: 

__________________________________________________
Greetings fellow hop heads,

I am getting ready to go on my first all grain adventure. I am about
8-9 batches into my hb career, have been off duty for a few years,
and decided that it was not only time to get back into it, but to do
it right as well.

I am going to give it a go on Friday. My main reason for posting
here is as a sounding board. I am sure that most of you (if not
all) have more experience than me with this. My plan is to mash in at
155-160 F. Rest for 60 minutes, recirculate until clear, then sparge at 170
until I run off 5 gal. of wort. The boil/hop/pitch thing doesn't concern me,
what I want to know is if there is anything I am really missing here. I am
shooting for an amber, I have all the
basic equip.(two cooler set-up with "sparge sprinkler", crab cooker with
modified domestic keg) but my "local" brew shop is a three hour drive so
readily available advice is a "not gonna happen" thing. Any comment are more
than welcome.

>From somewhere in the middle of the desert in the "Evergreen" state of the
great Northwest.



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:33:38 -0400
From: Rober Johnson <rjohnson at mbta.com>
Subject: Red wheat

Greetings from Tewksbury,Ma.
I was wondering if anyone knows of a source for red wheat malt, I am
pretty sure I have seen this malt in a catalog or two, but don't
remember whose.  My local supplier is not familiar with it.  I don't
know who the maltster is.  Any help would be most appreciated.  Thanks
Bob



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:24:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: HBD Community Red Cross Fund Status


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

The HBD Community Red Cross Fund stands at $980!!!! MOST
excellent! We WILL make it to $1000 because I'm going to throw
another $20 into the hat!

BUT - if you still wish to donate to the Red Cross and would like to have
your donation go twice as far, please donate through the Match Fund. If
received in time for me to postmark the entire fund by 10/15 (I will
probably mail the check 10/13 to ensure it receives the prescribed
postmark - best bet at this stage of the game is PayPal, folks.) these
funds will receive a match. If received after, I will try to identify
other oppportunities to have the funds matched (there are still several
public matches in my area), but will forward them to the Red Cross
regardless.

We ARE the greatest community on the internet! GO HBD!!!

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:02:57 -0500
From: crossno at tnns.net
Subject: Oct. 11, charitable initiatives

WORLD OF BEER UPDATE
Delivered to you monthly by Stephen Beaumont's World of Beer
http://www.WorldOfBeer.com
Take a break and see what's new in the world!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The dawn of tomorrow, October 11, will mark one month since the 
horrific tragedies in New York, Washington and rural Pennsylvania. And I
would 
like to encourage all World of Beer readers and Update subscribers to mark
the
occasion by having a beer or going out for a meal.

Two highly laudable charitable initiatives have been set up for action
tomorrow. In Pennsylvania and beyond, Unity Night is an effort jointly
initiated by the Association of Brewers and the Pennsylvania 
Microbrewers Guild. Dozens of craft breweries across the United States will
donate proceeds from tomorrow's beer sales to the United Way September 11th 
Fund, including breweries in Pennsylvania, California, Connecticut,
Colorado,
Delaware, Hawaii, New York, Oregon, Tennessee, Vermont, Washington, 
West Virginia and New Brunswick, Canada. See the Real Beer Page's story on 
Unity Night at http://realbeer.com/spotlight/october11.html for a complete 
listing of participating breweries, as well as details on other charitable
initiatives undertaken by breweries.  

On a much broader scale, more than a thousand restaurants across the 
United States and in Bermuda, Canada, Dominican Republic, England, Hong
Kong, 
Italy, Japan, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Taiwan and Antigua have signed on as
part 
of the Windows of Hope campaign. Each of these restaurants has agreed to 
donate at least 10% of their sales from October 11 to the Windows of Hope
Family 
Relief Fund, set up to provide aid to the families of victims of the World 
Trade Center tragedy who worked in the foodservice profession. You can find
a
complete listing of the participating establishments at 
http://www.windowsofhope.org.



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:16:07 -0700
From: Casey <acez at mindspring.com>
Subject: Stability

Thanks to those who responded to my two questions yesterday. I've come
up with another.

Wouldn't beer and mead (and wines, I suppose) last a lot longer in the
bottle and be more stable if you squirted some C02 in the headspace
before capping? Then shanking the bottles would really have no effect,
right? No oxidation (or very little) and more stability.

Thanks in advance,
Casey




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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:40:53 -0400
From: Brian Levetzow <levetzowbt at home.com>
Subject: RE:  Final Gravity

>Jeff Storm asked:
>Is there a formula for determining final gravity or a
>style guideline for final gravity?

Final gravity will vary, based upon the apparent attenuation of your
yeast strain.

Example:
You brewed up a pale ale with an OG of 1.050, and used White Labs
California WLP001, with an attenuation 73-80%.  You should expect your
final gravity to be ~73-80% of the OG.  To make it easy, just use the
"point" value.

50 - (50*0.73) = 50 - 36.5 = 13.5
50 - (50*0.80) = 50 - 40   = 10

So, the final gravity on this example should be between 1.010-1.014

Delta


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:42:13 -0000
From: "Crouch, Kevin E" <Crouch.Kevin at emeryworld.com>
Subject: RE: Undermodified Malt


>While we're on the topic of undermodified malts, perhaps I'm guilty of
>falling for marketing hype, because I have yet to discover WHY it is
better.
>Maybe the Moravian malt is just very good malt, period, but is there
>anything about under-modification that will contribute to the final 
quality
>of my beer?

To understand why undermodified malt is used in making Deutsch Bier,  you
need to consider the traits that anal German brewmasters value in their
beers.  A premium Helles bock or lager, for example,  will be *sparklingly*
clear at all temperatures,  clean tasting,  and highly stable in the bottle
or keg.  What threatens these traits is PROTEIN.  By only letting the
acrospire grow ~halfway around the seed during the malting process,  and
thus letting the biochemical pathways that produce proteins work only long
enough to spit out the necessary enzymes for starch conversion,  The protein
content is kept to a BARE MINIMUM.  The result is a clean, malty, beautiful
creation that only the Germans seem to know how to make.  If you like
Ayinger's beer,  it might interest you to know that they grow and malt ALL
of their own grains to their specifications.  In my opinion, their beers
have few peers.  Also, consider the notion that these malty wonders are the
"Varietals" of the brewing world,  akin to a zinfandel or single malt
scotch,  and you really cannot underestimate the importance of the "RIGHT"
malt for the beer.

Now,  you  may be asking,  why the hell didn't those silly Germans  just
modify their malt to a higher degree and throw in some finings at the end of
the boil to achieve the clarity and stability that they desire?  It comes
down to the Rheinheitsgebot my friend.  If it aint malt, hops or water,  it
aint goin' in. 

As for decoction mashing,  it may be obvious by now that the main reason it
was done was because the starch kernel remains relatively intact due to lack
of enzymatic activity in undermodified malts,  and the only way to achieve
an acceptable extract is to break the starch down as much as possible
through a lengthy decoction process.  It is undeniable that it increases
color and protein separation, but some will argue that it alo adds extra
malt flavor and aroma as well. The jury is still out on that one despite
what some obscure homebrewing experiments might suggest.  If you have great
undermodified Moravian malt,  you have an advantage in making certain
varieties over most brewers. Certainly you should use a decoction mash
before using this malt,  but you should really research the process first
because it is very time consuming and fraught with peril.

Kevin Crouch


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:46:27 -0000
From: "Crouch, Kevin E" <Crouch.Kevin at emeryworld.com>
Subject: RE: two questions

Casey wrote: #1: It is my understanding that in decoction mashing, you take
off a 
>bitof the grains and boil them and add them back to the original mash. 
>Whatis the purpose of this? And wouldn't boiling actual grains lead to the
>release of tanins? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the procedure
 
You might want to read my other post on decoction mashing and undermodified
malts, as well as the wealth of information out there on the web about it
before you invest the time.  To answer your question, though,  the best
german breweries in the world still use decoction mashing; do you notice any
phenolic character in those beers?  Probably not.  The reason is that the
thickness and acidity of the THICK portion of a decoction mash limits the
extraction of tannins from the husk.  German mash tuns are equipped with a
pump that pulls the thick portion of the mash from the bottom of the mash
tun and transfers it to the mash cooker for decoction(of course, this is
easy in a mash system that has 3 vessels, one each for "cooking", mashing
and lautering the grist)to ensure that a watery mash is not boiled. Also you
must monitor you Ph,  if you have highly basic water,  you could reach Ph
levels at the later decoctions that could leach tannins.  Be Careful!

Kevin Crouch



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:48:00 -0000
From: "Crouch, Kevin E" <Crouch.Kevin at emeryworld.com>
Subject: RE: Sparge Water volume, hop plugs

I have been able to find Hop Plugs regularly here in Vancouver, WA at Bader
Brewing (http://www.baderbrewing.com),  They are imported Saaz, Golding and
Hallertauer varieties and come 5 oz for 7.99.  Please,  save some for me!
 
Greg Remake Wrote
>I'm wondering if there are any advantages 
>to increasing the sparge water volume and not draining the tun completely.

>Am I potentially extracting any harsh flavors or tannins that I could 
>otherwise leave behind?  
 
A couple of guidelines to follow that might answer your question.
1)Ideally,  your sparge should remain saturated at all times to reduce the
threat of hot-side oxidation,  this obviously means that whenever you are
running off, you should also be running in.  
2)By knowing the RATE at which you are running off, you can tell if you are
going too fast and thus ending up with a weak, diluted extract that will
require extensive boiling to bring up to your target gravity.  An ideal rate
would be about an hour to an hour and a half for 6.5 gallons of extract.
Thus,  the volume of sparge water you have on hand is really only a
practical concern.
3)One more thing,  stop sparging when the extract coming out of the lauter
tun reaches 1.010,  no matter how tempting it might be!   I oversparged a
Scotch Ale once(drastically) and it sat in my cellar for a year while I
waited for the phenolic character to diminish.  If you need to top it off,
use filtered water.
 
 

Kevin Crouch


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:36:00 -0700
From: "Rod Milligan" <ramilligan23 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Haziness (cont'd)

First of all, let me say "Thank You!" to all of you who have responded to my
haziness questions!!  And, yes, much to the eye-bulging surprise of
everyone, I totally skipped extracts and went straight to all-grain.  :)  I
guess I'm a control freak!

Pete in NY had a couple questions.  Let me try to list out some of the
details...

1. Do you bottle condition or keg?  Keg.  I usually carbonate for about 3-6
days, shaking it once the first day and then letting it settle.  Here is the
whole kegging process....
	- Sanitize the keg.
	- Let excess water drip out.
	- Put a beer quick disconnect (QD) on the gas line (through the "Out" side)
and slowly pump CO2 into the keg.  The CO2 will eventually push the oxygen
out of the keg.
	- Transfer into keg.
	- Seal.
	- Continue to pump CO2 into the keg through the beer QD.  Open the relief
valve and allow any additional oxygen to escape.  Once you start to see foam
through the air holes, close the relief valve.  I typically use 12-14 PSi.
	- Shake vigorously to ensure even distribution.
	- Let sit under 12-14 PSi for about 3 days.
	- I typically do not serve until about 6-7 days after the shaking.

2. Do you ferment primary only or do you use both a primary and secondary? I
use primary and secondary fermenters.  Usually 4-6 days in primary and 3-4
days in secondary.  After 3-4 days in secondary, I put the secondary carboy
in the fridge to chill it for about 2-3 days.

3. Also, what yeasts have you experienced this with - some take longer to
settle out
even at cooler temps? I used White Labs WLP001 - California Ale for both of
them.

4. Do you circulate your mash until relatively clear? I recirculate for
about 15-20 minutes.  Ends up being about 1.5-2 gallons.

5. Also, do you possibly oversparge? Interesting...I'm not sure.  :)  What
is oversparging?  I usually adjust the sparge water to equal the wort
transfer.  Is that what I should be doing?

6. How vigorous and how long do you boil as boiling helps with hot break
which should help with haziness? I boil for 90 minutes and it's as vigorous
as I can get it without having a sticky boil over. (been there, done that,
took awhile to clean it up)

I also use one whirlfloc tablet at 20 minutes.  Should I move that to 15 or
even 10?  I've heard from quite a few of you that non-flavored gelatin in
the fermenter also works wonders.

I've been very curious about the whole haziness thing.  I had a hunch that
it all starts at choosing your base grain.  I have been using Schrier 2-row
(Belgian), but I think I am going to switch to an American 2-row and see how
that turns out.

Another question I had was, how long are you supposed to mash the grain?  I
have been doing what ProMash calls a sacchrification rest at 154 degrees for
60 minutes and then I mash out at 168 degrees for 5 minutes.  Is it too
warm?

Thanks again to everyone who has responded to me!!  I haven't been able to
get back to everyone, so I figured this would be the best place to do that.

Cheers!

Rod Milligan
Bloomington, IL



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:33:24 EDT
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: French Method


<< #3: In wines, how come in france they do the whole smashing grapes with
 your toes thing and don't worry about infection like us beer guys do?
 
 Thanks in advance,
 Casey

Quite obviously Casey, it's because they have cleaner feet.


But seriously folks, when they smash the grapes, with feet or without, the 
wine is already fermented. They are pressing the already fermented wine out 
of the grape skins.  
  
The wine is highly alcoholic and very acidic at that point, so it can defend 
itself against most foot-borne nasties.

Alan Talman
(been so long since I've posted, I've forgotton my Rennerian coordinates, 
please forgive me. ) 


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:26:41 -0500
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarshm at home.com>
Subject: discolored immersion chiller

Salutations, brothers & sisters of the barm:

Recently I've noticed some black discoloration on my copper 
immersion chiller. The discoloration is uneven and spotty, and 
mostly on the lower portions of the chiller. On my most recent brew-
day, I noticed verdegris forming on parts of the coils after soaking 
in PBW. A long soak in a dilute vinegar solution removed the 
verdegris and a good bit (but not all) of the stains. I've soaked the 
chiller in a vinegar solution previously in an attempt to remove the 
stains, and it abates but doesn't entirely remove it.

I use an aluminum kettle with an EZ-Masher for a drain/hop filter. 
After brewing, I dump the hops (except for a few flowers that stick 
to the bottom & sides) on the compost pile, and I soak the kettle & 
chiller in a hot PBW solution (1/2 c. to 9 gal) for up to an hour 
before draining and cleaning. The copper pickup tube on the EZ-
Masher also shows some discoloration.

I did a search of the archives and found some commentary awhile 
back about PBW turning water blue in the presence of copper, but 
no mention of blackening.

Does anyone know what dark forces might be at work in my kettle?

Regards,
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Ala.

PS--With all the nifty brewing calculators available on the web, is 
there a calculator for Rennerian coordinates according to the 
Henning system?



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:45:37 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pcalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Labels, another possibility.

If you have the spreadsheet program Excel, I posted a spreadsheet at:

http://hbd.org/pcalinsk/Labels.htm

It makes 60 labels on a single 8.5x11 sheet of paper. You enter the info you
want on the first label and it copies it to the other 59.  Each one is not
much bigger that a bottle top and could be placed there.  I put them on the
neck of the bottle with milk because I can't see the top of the bottles in
my fridge.

Hope this helps.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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