HOMEBREW Digest #3764 Thu 18 October 2001

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  Re: Berliner Weisse (Spencer W Thomas)
  gene therapy for alcoholism (ensmingr)
  re: discolored immersion chiller (Matt)
  re: milk jugs ("D Perry")
  Re: When to stop sparging (John Schnupp)
  Copper and acids / Smoked Wheat And Rye Black beer (Tony Barnsley)
  Re: Propane Indoors (Todd Goodman)
  Re:  homebrew at the legislature ("Dennis Collins")
  Lock for refridgerator ("Jeff Huck")
  Re: propane indoors (Rob Dewhirst)
  When to Stop Sparging (Nathan Kanous)
  propane indoors ("Robin Griller")
  Cyser -priming (LJ Vitt)
  Third Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results ("H. Dowda")
  Iodophor stains ("Drew Avis")
  wheat haze woes (Steven S)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:48:09 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: Berliner Weisse It "is" the real thing. Actually Berliner Weisse ages and travels well, which is amazing considering how "light" a beer it really is. That said, I find Kindl Weisse, as good as it is, to be a pale shadow of the other Berliner Weisse, Schultheiss. Unfortunately, Schultheiss is not available in this country. (I have tasted hand-carried samples of both, side by side.) =S >>>>> "Steven" == Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net> writes: Steven> How similar to the real thing is the imported Berliner Steven> Weisse (bottled)? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:24:32 -0400 From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com Subject: gene therapy for alcoholism For those of you with an alcohol problem, which surely cannot be many among the HBD readers, I saw the following item of interest from the recent issue of JAMA: Gene therapy to deliver extra copies of a dopamine receptor may someday help alcoholics and drug addicts recover, report scientists from the Department of Energy's Brookhaven National Laboratory. Previous Brookhaven research suggested that over time, alcohol and drug abuse destroy D2 dopamine receptors in the brain, essential for a normal pleasure response. To override this blunted response, addicts increase their drinking and drug using. The Brookhaven team hypothesized that adding D2 receptors might therefore decrease alcohol intake. In the experiments, rats trained to drink large amounts of alcohol received injections into the brain of a deactivated virus that ferried copies of the gene for D2 to the nucleus accumbens, known as the brain's pleasure center and an area associated with the reinforcing effects of alcohol. Among the rats that initially preferred alcohol, those that received the D2 gene drank 64% less alcohol than rats that received only a placebo virus with no genes. Even rats with an initially low preference for alcohol showed significant reductions in their preference for and intake of alcohol after treatment with the D2 gene. "This is the first evidence that overproduction of D2 receptors reduces alcohol intake and suggests that high levels of D2 may be protective against alcohol abuse in humans," said lead researcher Panayotis Thanos, PhD. "This gives us great hope that we can refine this treatment for future clinical use." However, the reduction in drinking preference and behavior was transient, with both measures returning to baseline within 8 days. But a second treatment with the D2 genes produced the same dramatic effect. The researchers are working on a better virus vector that will have longer-lasting effects (J Neurochem. 2001;78:1094-1103). - -- Cheerio! Peter A. Ensminger Syracuse, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:25:22 -0400 From: Matt <shwalker at geocities.com> Subject: re: discolored immersion chiller >Tom Williams said: >Perhaps one of the HBD metallurgists could comment on the process forming these >deposits on Tidmarsh's copper chiller. I don't know what PBW is >(iodine? bleach?), but it sounds like the source of the corrosion deposits. Well, I'm no metallurgist, but I tend to agree. I use PBW myself for cleaning my kettle and fermenters out. PBW is a mixture of silicate and phosphate compounds and surfacants (according to the MSDS). The resulting solution is fairly basic, thus there should be a good amount of hydroxide ions available to react with copper (pH of 1% SOLUTION: 11-12 according to the MSDS). Copper can react with hydroxide to form copper(II) hydroxide, although this normally occurs when the copper is already dissolved as ions. The weak acidity of wort will cause some of the copper to be dissolved, but I'd not suspect this to me much. Copper(II) hydroxide can break down to form copper(II) oxide, which is black. Cu(OH)2 --> CuO + H2O So I'm not quite sure why the reaction is starting, the pieces to come to that ending are certainly present. I'd not recommend using PBW or other basic solutions on your copper. Though I use PWB on my kettle, my chiller receives a different treatment. I clean my chiller by boiling it in a solution of water and vinegar and then rinse off, similar to what Todd Bissel recommended. However since I heat mine I can get away with a much lower concentration, about 2 cups of vinegar in 4 gallons of water. Copper dissolves easily in the presence of acids, and the weakly acidic vinegar solution takes a very thin layer of copper off the surface, leaving fresh, bright copper behind. As soon as it turns clean, it's time to take it out (This process would take a long time (months perhaps) to dissolve off any noticeable percentage of the copper pipe, but why leave it in longer than needed). Cheers and good luck. - ------------------------- Matt Kettler shwalker at geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5066 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:02:42 -0700 From: "D Perry" <daperry75 at home.com> Subject: re: milk jugs "D Perry" <daperry75 at home.com>, from some undisclosed location (Dave, just a quick and friendly reminder to folks posting on the HBD: it is helpful for posters to put where they are geographically fixed, often in Rennerian coordinates, to allow others who reply the courtesy of having some additional bits of information that might help in answering your question) I am from Canada, but BC, not Quebec. Prince George BC, to be exact. I could give you long and lat cooridnates, but I didn't think them necessary. Sorry I didn't include all this info. I am only a second time poster. Now I know and knowing is half the battle (GI JOE). Heh. My attempt at humor. I appreciate the responses I got I think I will stick with glass jugs. I might use a couple of those 1 liter flip lid bottles, or maybe a 2 litre plastic pop bottle. Any thoughts? (Notice there are two spellings of liter, all depends on the teacher) Thanks, and don't take this post the wrong way, this is a friendly forum. :) Dave Perry Prince George, BC, Canada Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 02:02:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: When to stop sparging I guess I just don't get it. Seems there have been several posts about needing to cool the wort sample before taking the SG. Are there not temperature correction factors? OK, so it probably won't be exact, but let's be real here. Is is really possible to tell the difference in a beer that stopped sparging at 1.010 and one that stopped at 1.012? Take a sample. Take a SG and temp measurement. Use the temp correction factor. Done. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:25:37 +0100 From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk> Subject: Copper and acids / Smoked Wheat And Rye Black beer Matthew Kettler Said > Copper dissolves easily in the presence of acids, and the weakly acidic > vinegar solution takes a very thin layer of copper off the surface, > leaving fresh, bright copper behind. Now I am not a metallurgist, nor do I play one on TV . . . but Clean copper metal DOES NOT REACT WITH ANY ACID!! Although that's not strictly true either, copper does not react with the hydrogen ions in the acid as it lies below hydrogen in the reactivity series. Copper will react with nitric acid but does so by reacting with the nitrate ion to yield some salt and nitrogen dioxide (I think :> ). Interestingly although this is done with conc. nitric usually the same reaction will take place with nitrate ions in water, So if your brewing liquor is high in nitrates you will get some copper leached into the solution, but it happens very slowly. It's a different story with dirty oxidised copper though. Copper oxide is soluble in acid even weak organic acids. So immersing a dirty (but sanitised) coil in your beer will increase the level of copper ions in the beer. Its much faster at warmer temperatures, and this is what we see in the boiler, the dirty copper manifold / pickup comes out really clean. Copper also doesn't really react with alkalines as it acts as a base anyway (Which is why its salts react with acids), but then its a transition element so does some really funny things. As it happens its also a funny transition element having a full 3d electron shell and a half filled 4s electron shell, All (most) other trannies have a full 4s and a partially full 3d Having said all that, A weakly acidic solution will clean the deposits off the copper surface ;-'> And it was no Joke about the Black Smoked Wheat Rye Beer, I may even change some of the Carafa III malt for some roasted rye malt, It depends if we can get Carafa malt imported into the UK sometime this century!! I really want the dark colour without the roastiness of Barley or Black Patent. - -- Wassail! The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361) Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK Rennerian Coordinates ( I'm a man I don't admit that I'm Lost ;-'> ) UK HOMEBREW - A Forum on Home Brewing in the UK Managed by home brewers for home brewers To Subscribe send blank email to uk-homebrew-subscribe at smartgroups.com This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:12:11 -0400 From: Todd Goodman <tgoodman at bonedaddy.net> Subject: Re: Propane Indoors In HBD #3763 Dion Hollenbeck writes: > I am very puzzled here. While some people may do stupid things with > propane indoors, and nearly kill themselves, there are a huge amount of > homes out there that do not have natural gas, but heat and cook with > propane. Yes, propane is dangerous, but only if you screw up. Otherwise > the whole county I live in would not have any heat, or houses would be > blowing up regularly. The difference is that they have tanks that are always outside the house (and usually away from the house some distance if large enough). So far, most people are talking about the small, portable tanks which are designed to vent propane if the pressure gets too high (like possibly when bringing a full tank from outside inside). > The burners in my brewery are propane fired, piped in at 15 psi from > outside. When I am done brewing the valve on the inside of the brewery is > turned off, and the valve supplying that pipe from the outside of the > building is also turned off. The handles are removed and stored out of > reach in the brewery. There is nothing unsafe about propane handled > correctly. All connections should be tight and tested with soap solution. > Or in the case of the piping in my walls, tested with air pressure at 30 > psi for weeks without loss. > > Just my $0.02 for what it is worth. > > dion All good suggestions. I wouldn't have any problems using propane piped from outside the house. Now, I wanted to point out a couple things that have been mentioned, but I'd like to give my experience. I brew on a commercial stove (a real commercial stove, no insulation, has to be six inches away from all combustables including the wall). Unlike many home projects, this was inspected by the building inspector and fire department. In fact, the fire departement required a fire supression system which in turn required a stainless steel restaurant hood and mushroom fan outside the wall (which all cost more than the stove in the first place). It also required a full inch gas line run from the meter outside the house straight to the stove. The building inspector was *very* concerned about CO generation. Not so much from the by products of a regular burn of the burners, but from lack of "make-up" air (oxygen) which he said causes very poor combustion and produces more CO. He required a hard wired CO detector, hard wired heat detector and two 8" square vents punched through the wall. I also have one of the usual CO detectors located near the stove with a digital readout. If I forget to turn the exhaust fan on and turn a single burner on full (30,000btu burners) then I can see the CO levels climb rapidly on the detector. I also know that the hardwired CO detector works as well (it causes all the fire alarms in the house to go off). With the exhaust fan on and the vents open, it drops to zero quite rapidly. So, in my experience, even if you've made sure that you are storing the gas used safely, please be very careful about ventilation, not just removing combustion products, but bringing in make up air as well. My $.02 for what it's worth as well, Todd Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:50:55 -0400 From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com> Subject: Re: homebrew at the legislature Joe mentions that homebrewing in Mississippi is not legal. I read that and almost laughed out loud. Not because I didn't believe it, but because that's where my whole homebrewing experience got started! Mississippi, from county to county, has some of the most screwed up liquor laws that you have ever seen. Coming originally from California where you can get anything from Budweiser to Everclear in the grocery store, and then moving to rural Mississippi in the early 90's, I was simply amazed at the "control" that the state puts on it's residents as to when and where we could buy and drink alcohol. A friend turned me on to homebrewing in 1992 while I was living in Iuka, MS(pronounced eye-you-ka) in Tishomingo county and it never even occurred to me to check and see if it was legal or not. Tishomingo was a dry county, so I at least knew that once the wort became beer that I was skirting the law, but I had no idea that the process itself was forbidden. My advice to the discouraged Mississippi resident is two-fold: First, has he thought about moving to another state? I did. Second, he is fighting a HUGE uphill battle attacking this through the "proper" political channels. I admire his passion, but from my perspective on Mississippi politics, any state with laws about alcohol as screwed up as them has a whole other agenda (I'll lay odds that it's tax revenue) and about 150 years of political growing up to do. All this to say - keep on brewin'! Turn your friends on to homebrewing in MS, hold brew-outs, give a ton of homebrew away, send a case of homebrew to the state legislature, in other words - thumb your nose at the establishment! Start a homebrew revolt! Or you could just move. FWIW, Dennis Collins Knoxville, TN Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:50:33 -0600 From: "Jeff Huck" <jeff-huck at home.com> Subject: Lock for refridgerator Hi all, I've decided to move my keg fridge in from the garage to keep = it in the 70F range while a couple of ale's finish fermenting. My wife = is concerned about our 2.5 year old son, who loves to play in boxes, = etc. (I don't know what I'd do, either, if something happened to the = beer in there :) ). =20 Currently, I have one of the stick-on plastic child proof latches on the = door, but with a good tug even the 2 year old could get the door open = and climb inside. I went to the hardware store to get something more = permanent, but all of the locking latches looked like they would be to = shallow to reach all the way around the door to the side (approx. 3 = inches). The screws didn't look like they would hold very well either. Does anyone have a working lock mechanism for a small fridge? It is a = small Kenmore, dorm-type fridge. Thanks, Jeff Salt Lake City, Ut Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:30:54 -0500 From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu> Subject: Re: propane indoors At 12:54 AM 10/17/2001 -0400, you wrote: >I am very puzzled here. While some people may do stupid things with >propane indoors, and nearly kill themselves, there are a huge amount of >homes out there that do not have natural gas, but heat and cook with >propane. Yes, propane is dangerous, but only if you screw up. Otherwise >the whole county I live in would not have any heat, or houses would be >blowing up regularly. > It's the 200K BTU burners running in small unventilated spaces that are the the problem, not propane, per se. Most propane home appliances are vented (all flame fired water heaters are, as well as most furnaces) and the BTU rating of the typical propane stove top is usually in the 5-10K BTU range. FWIW, there HAVE been cases where both NAT and LP users in home have nearly killed themselves. Sealing up the cold house on Thanksgiving while running every burner on the stove, the furnace, etc., all at the same time. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:16:16 -0500 From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu> Subject: When to Stop Sparging Hi All, I've read with interest the methods that people use for identifying when to stop sparging. I've tried measuring the SG of the runoff. You know what? Seems like too much work for me. Yeah, I know it's a hobby and we can get into these types of things. Hell, Jeff Renner's got a refractometer. What a toy! I'll bet that Jeff would tell you that it's just an expensive toy, but he's invested money in it an he uses it (he may even make better beer because of it). What on earth is this blabbermouth (me) getting at? How do I sparge? As many people make negative comments about Charlie P, I'll give him a plug. First book I owned described a way of making beer from all-grain (clearly voodoo stuff for a beginner). There was a table of "amounts" of mash and sparge water to use and such. I use 1.25 quarts per pound of malt to mash and I sparge with 1/2 gallon per pound of malt. Yup, it's crude. Yup, it uses those ugly units of quarts and pounds as opposed to something simple like liters and kilograms. Problem is, it's worked for me for 6+ years. I think I make some decent beer at my house. Stop by and I'd be more than willing to share a pint or two with you. Just a thought for how someone that is less than enthused about using a hydrometer during mashing may approach this. Sometimes simple works. Everybody have a great day! nathan in madison, wi Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:48:21 -0400 From: "Robin Griller" <robin_g at ica.net> Subject: propane indoors Hi all, Dion makes the point for me in his post: his propane tank is OUTSIDE. Propane tanks should not come indoors. If, as many people do you, you have properly 'plumbed' propane with the tank outside, it should be no problem. Taking propane tanks inside, on the other hand, ..... Robin Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:11:17 -0700 (PDT) From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com> Subject: Cyser -priming Stefan asked: >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:38:32 -0500 >From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren at trekbike.com> >Subject: Post Question >HBD, >I have started a batch of Cyser that has been sitting for two weeks now >and >I plan on transferring to a secondary. What is the time limit that I >should >let the Cyser sit in the secondary? Maximum time? I usually take at least a year to bottle a mead. I go until I know it is very clear. Put a lighted light bulb beside the carboy. You should be able to read the label on top of the bulb through the mead. I rack it several times, with 1-6 month intervals between rackings. I also try to avoid any finings. > It was made with 4 gallons of >fresh >Cider and 4 lbs of honey and I used a Whitelabs Cider yeast that was >amazing >( I would recommend to anyone, due to the activity and speed of >firing). >The primary ferment was amazing and vigorous, like a snow storm. I >also >plan on bottling and would like suggestions on what level of sugar/malt >to >prime 4 gallons with. Any help or comments on Cysers would be >great..... >Stefan Berggren Priming: I use frozen concentrated apple juice to prime cysers and ciders. For 5 gallons, I use the whole can of concentrate. For 4 gallons, use 4/5 of the can. Thaw the can, measure the volume of the contents and go from there. Cyser is the only mead I have primed. - Leo Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:23:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com> Subject: Third Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results Visit http://www.sagecat.com/psboresults.htm for results. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:24:36 -0400 From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> Subject: Iodophor stains Brewers: has anyone found an effective way to remove the tea-coloured stains that iodophor leaves on a light-coloured counter top? Last night I hit them with some pure bleach, which only seems to have made them cleaner, brighter, more noticable stains. Luckily for me SWMBO believes they are from tea bags, and not from my sloppy mixing during frantic moments of brewing ("Where the * at #! is that sterilizer? Better mix up some more in this small bowl..."). Cheers! Drew Avis in Merrickville (yep, that's E. Ontario) - 9 hours 8 min, or 793.4 km from Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:10:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net> Subject: wheat haze woes I've been following some of the haze threads quite closely. Currently my latest attempt at a batch of Raspberry Wheat sits in the "clearing" carboy, and quite frankly, its murky. Red, sweet, sour & high alcohol level but murky. I used 5lbs of torrified wheat, which i've used in all my all-grain batches using wheat. Would it be logical to probably do a protein rest of the wheat first? I'm using american 2-row as my base grain, single step mash. I'm thinking of dumping in some gelatin in tomorrow to see if it helps clear it any. I dont want crystal clear but it would be nice to be able to get light thru it. Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net "Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry." Winston Churchill - 1937 Return to table of contents
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