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Contents:
  Propane vs. LPG (Ant Hayes)
  unexpected low gravity (leavitdg)
  Rennerian coordinates calculator (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Iodophor stains (Demonick)
  RE: When to stop sparging (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Tap A Draft System ("Tom Byrnes")
  Re:  Propane Indoors ("Membrino, Tim")
  Re: When to Stop Sparging (Jeff Renner)
  Re: when to stop sparging - Retraction! ("RJ")
  RE: when to stop sparging - Retraction! (Bruce Smith)
  Sparging sentiments ("Crouch, Kevin E")
  When to stop sparging./re: wheat haze woes ("Stephen Alexander")
  Copper and Acids (AJ)
  pre-set sparge water amounts (RiedelD)
  cold plate in refrigerator for dispensing ("Membrino, Tim")
  Sankey keg source? ("Membrino, Tim")
  Pumpkin Ale 2001 (Bob Sheck)
  Now I'm really confused (Bob Sheck)


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:26:35 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Propane vs. LPG

Why is propane more dangerous than LPG?

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg; South Africa
Rennerian coord approx = [13 656; 125] distance in km; true bearing


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 06:56:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: unexpected low gravity

I brewed a Belgian Saison, on 9/28/01, let it sit until yesterday,
and was surprised when the gravity had only gone from 1.07 (OG) to
1.038  in all that time.  None the less, as I siphoned into the secondary,
I made a point of picking up a reasonable amount of the yeast from the bottom,
and it has taken off again!  Happy,...I am.

Has anyone come up with similar results? I know that I kept the right
temperatures, aerated,..etc..

Here is the recipe:

5 lb Pearl (2 row from NC Malt)
4 lb wheat
2 lb Vienna
2 lb Rice (I know...not called for..)
 .25 lb Special B

first rest at 128F for 30
[I had intended 122F but overshot]
2nd rest at 148F for 45
3rd rest at 158F for 45

90 minute boil, added corriander, allspice, cinnamon,lemon peel,cumin

minimal hops 1 oz Hallertau  at  start of final 60
1/2 oz Hal at 30
none  at  end

I have hopes that this will survive...but need to know if anyone has 
experienced similar gravity at the end of the primary....

I guess that I failed to mention that I did not use a starter, but used
a vial of wlp belgian saison...perhaps that is the issue?  Not enough 
yeasties for a 1.07 starting gravity?

Well,...if so , the next batch that I brewed should be better: I pitched
a "Raison Saison" onto the yeast cake...2 lb of raisons...kept at 170F
placed into the cooling wort...(more of a porter recipe this time)..just to see 
what happens..

Enough! 

Happy Brewing!
 .Darrell


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:08:29 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: Rennerian coordinates calculator

Beerlings and other types;

For those who would like to participate in the call for rennerian
coordinates in your sig line, here you go.

I've written a javascript calculator and put it on my website (link below).
All you need to know is your longitude and latitude, which I explain how to
get for those in the US (Sorry bout that - it's based on zip codes). Just
plug in your long/lat & click. It will give your distance, bearing from the
center of the homebrewing universe, and you can copy & paste to your sig in
your email client. It would be good to include your City/State too.


Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[422.5, 169] Rennerian
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:20:54 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Iodophor stains

From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
> Brewers: has anyone found an effective way to remove the tea-coloured
> stains that iodophor leaves on a light-coloured counter top?  Last
> night I hit them

This is just a guess.  You might try hydrogen peroxide, but test it first
somewhere out of sight.  You might also try low heat.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:30:58 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: When to stop sparging

I'm with Nathan on this one, and if I ever get to Madison, I'll take you up
on the pints.

When I first decided to do check on the gravity of my last runnings from the
sparge, I did this:

For several (around 5 or 6 - notes are at home) consecutive batches, when I
had finished collecting the right amount of wort, I tooka sample,
crash-cooled it (without the use of a jet engine) and took an SG reading.

Ya know what? they were all above 1.008, so I don't bother anymore.

I use Promash, and I calculate the water needed by specifying that I will
leave 1-2 gallons (depending on batch size) in the lauter tun - this way I
never run the mash dry when sparging.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[422.5, 169] Rennerian
Try the Rennerian Coordinates Calculator at
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:35:05 -0400
From: "Tom Byrnes" <kmstfb2 at exis.net>
Subject: Tap A Draft System

 I just saw the new Tap a Draft sytem for kegging. Does anyone ahve any personal
experience with this system? Does it live up to the reveiws and descriptions.
Does is work as good as advertised. Thanks Tom


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:48:27 -0400
From: "Membrino, Tim" <tim.membrino at cytyc.com>
Subject: Re:  Propane Indoors

The discussion on the dangers of using Propane indoors got me to
thinking (always a dangerous thing) - I understand why it's dangerous to
use a Propane tank right after taking if from the cold outside to the
warm inside (expansion issues).  But let's say I want to brew in my
garage with the doors wide open in the winter.  I prefer not to store
the Propane tank in the garage for safety reasons - so I leave it on the
deck (maybe that's not really safe either?).  Now if I want to brew in
the garage should I take the tank inside the garage and allow it to come
to thermal equilibrium for an hour or so before using it?  Or am I
really being overly anal and just need to get a pint?

A homebrewing friend sent me the following link yesterday - I guess
"Beer" was the word of the day!

http://www.travlang.com/wordofday/47.html


Tim Membrino
Acton, Massachusetts


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:10:42 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: When to Stop Sparging

Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu> wrote:
>Jeff Renner's got a refractometer.  What a toy!  I'll bet that Jeff would
>tell you that it's just an expensive toy

It's better than that.  It was an unused surplus piece of equipment 
from my wife's hospital lab.  Her boss was clearing things out about 
five years ago and told her to get rid of it.  Nobody could remember 
who had ordered it or why (presumably a backup for automated 
equipment), and it had been in a drawer for years.  They could have 
sent it to property disposition, but they get charged a fee for that, 
so she told her I could have it!  Pretty neat, huh?

It's high class Japanese optics with a urine protein scale and urine 
specific gravity scale (that's why the lab had it), and, fortunately 
for me, a scale for index of refraction, which is what I use, along 
with a chart from the CRC Handbook to convert to degrees Plato.  I've 
checked it several times against a hydrometer and it agrees within 
0.1P, which is as close as I can read either instrument.

I like to monitor my runoff SG, especially when I am doing a new 
recipe.  This makes it really easy.  As Nathan says, it isn't 
strictly necessary, but I like to do it.  I also check pH, but very 
rarely.

But the most important use is that it allows me to check the gravity 
of the wort as I approach the end of boil and make adjustments to hit 
my target.  I'd rather adjust to the target OG than the target volume 
of wort.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:21:07 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: when to stop sparging - Retraction!

Sorry Folks,

But, I was wrong in my post a few days ago, regarding "when to stop
sparging".

My numbers were backwards <sigh>.

Thanks "Happydog" for setting me straight.

I was baseing my info on the hydro calculator in ProMash v1.5a which I was
reading wrong; (Personally, I go by sight, smell, taste & time).

At any rate, here is the corrected chart in degrees F with a Hydrometer
Calibrated to 60F (degree value given is the break point at change):
149=0.991
148=0.992
145=0.993
142=0.994
138=0.995
135=0.996
131=0.997
128=0.998
124=0.999
120=1.000
116=1.001
112=1.002
107=1.003
103=1.004
 98=1.005
 92=1.006
 87=1.007
 80=1.008
 73=1.009
 65=1.010
 53=1.011



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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:41:56 -0700
From: Bruce Smith <bsmith at mail.dicon.com>
Subject: RE: when to stop sparging - Retraction!



- -----Original Message-----
From: RJ [mailto:wortsup at metrocast.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: when to stop sparging - Retraction!


Sorry Folks,<etc)

Ok I goof (alot) sometimes.

My name is Bruce Smith from San Diego California.  I have been brewing for
about six or seven years now. All grain for most of that. I lurk the HBD and
reply personaly because I don't want to get flamed for anything stupid I
might post.  Anyway good luck

BTW you can also use (brewsmith at worldnet.att.net)to contact me.
 





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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:01:18 -0000
From: "Crouch, Kevin E" <Crouch.Kevin at emeryworld.com>
Subject: Sparging sentiments 

Nathan Kanous wrote...
>I've tried measuring the SG of the runoff.  You know 
>what?  Seems like too much work for me...it's [Charlie Papazians system]
>worked for me for 6+ years.  I think I make some decent beer at my house.

Nathan,  you make point strong like bear, loud like foghorn.  I too had a
simple sparge system for 5 years or more and made beers that I could really
get into. Then I started to feel like I was doing something wrong because I
didn't know what the thermal mass of my mash tun was! All grain brewing on a
small scale can be made as simple as making drip coffee, or as complicated
as a half-caf, nonfat, double-shot, wet machiatto, yet we can still enjoy it
every bit as much. What is important is that one develops a philosophy of
homebrewing that allows one to weed out the chaff from these posts and focus
on just making beer that THEY like while enjoying the process.

Personally,  when I made the move to larger scale systems,(20 gals) and
tried to raise the quality of my beer to the next level, I found that the
truths that guided me in making 5 gallons just didn't hold up anymore. I
found that I couldn't just flush the toilet on the tun,  I had to work
harder to keep hot-side oxidation down, and boiling large volumes for
extended periods made nailing gravity, IBU, and color targets extremely
problematic.  I floundered for a while and became less and less satisfied
with the fruits of my brewing.  Why?

I realized that I had too many sails and too few ropes. My own expectations
were too lofty for the level of control I had over my process. I needed a
personal philosophy to guide me.  I found that most homebrew writers, like
Papazian, brainwash you with THEIR philosophy rather than simply laying the
ground rules and encouraging you to define your own. I realized that it
really DID matter to me that I nailed the bitternes to gravity ratio right
on, and that I hated the taste of crystal malt, and that chill haze sucks
when the red, brown, or golden hues of my beers fill me with more pride than
the red, white, and blue of the stars and stripes. I make love to my
beer..I'm practically married to it. I know *exactly* what flavor I want out
of my beer, and I will try anything once to achieve it.

The idea here is,  that you can make good beer from a can, without a
hydrometer, in an aluminum pot(though I wouldn't recommend it), with dry
yeast fermented at whatever temperature your house might be at. The methods
merely reflect the intent, not the skill.  Some people feel that Boddingtons
should be kept on the same shelf as Oly tall cans,  others feel it to have
been divinely inspired. Which one are you?

Kevin in the 'Couve,  Washington.


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:19:51 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: When to stop sparging./re: wheat haze woes

I previously wrote:

>Forget the calculator - sparge till the hot runnings drop under 1.002SG,
>then it's time to stop.

which caused a  flurry of questions from some of the more astute HBDers.
Obviously My statement was unclear.  The ever practical John Schnupp - gets
directly to my point . ...

> Are there not temperature
> correction factors?

Hydrometers are "supposed" to read specific gravity(SG), the ratio of the
density of a sample to the density of water at some 'spec' temperature.  All
the hydrometers I've come across, including my NIST traceable ERTCO's use
the archaic  60F(15.55C) as the spec temperature.  To properly read  SG you
need to cool the sample to 60F.  To estimate SG we can afford to measure hot
wort and use a temperature correction term.

As JohnS points out, we are trying to stop sparging at some reasonable level
around 1.010SG. and a couple SG degrees (0.001 - 1 SG degree) doesn't
greatly matter.  So what's the temperature correction ?

The density of water at the spec temp of 60F(15.5C) is 0.9981.   At
50C(122F) the density is 0.9880.  This means that if you place your
hydrometer in very hot tap water it will read (0.9880/0.9991 =) 0.989.  IOW
the hydrometer will read about 11 SG degrees low at this temperature.  We
could also correct for the wort extract fraction which isn't changing
density so much - but the difference is small (a few percent) and we are
looking for a rule of thumb.

So to roughly correct your hydrometer readings when measuring a *hot* sparge
runoff you need to add a correction factor around 0.011 to the reading.

At 40C(104F) add 0.007 to the reading
At 50C(122F) add 0.011
At 60C(140F) add 0.016
At 70C(158F) add 0.021

With my apparatus, by the time the late runnings get into a hydrometer jar
the temp is around 50C and I should  add 0.011 to the reading to correct for
the temperature.  If you want you could measure the sparge temp (in the
hydrometer jar) a few times and interpolate from the table above to get your
personal correction term.

If I wanted to stop sparging at 1.015SG, then my target reading of the hot
wort would be  (1.015 - 0.011=) 1.004 at 50C , for example.

===

I think it's useful to measure sparge SG over a few brews so you can control
your brewing process better.  Once you learn this rule of thumb correction
it's a great to be able to estimate the sparge SG without chilling wort or a
calculator.  As I mentioned it's also useful to taste the late runnings and
get a handle on the flavor changes that are occurring.

I almost agree with Nathan Kanous - if you keep track of the total water
(mash+sparge) there is almost no need to measure sparge SG, except as
verification.   Also it's no fault to cut the sparge at a higher SG.   One
of the advantages we have over commercial brewers is that we can afford to
ignore efficiency and cost in favor of flavor.   Add an extra pound of
grist, stop the sparge at 1.025 and see if you aren't happier with the
flavor !

====

Steven S writes ...

>[...] Raspberry Wheat [...] murky [...] 5lbs of torrified wheat, [...]
>Would it be logical to probably do a protein rest of the wheat first?

Yes, or of the entire mash.

>I'm using american 2-row as my base grain

American or Continental pale/pils malt should work well.  PaleAle\ malts are
low in proteinase enzymes - so avoid those.

>I'm thinking of dumping in some gelatin in
>tomorrow to see if it helps clear it any.

That's the wrong approach.  Gelatin and PVPP (and Polyclar) are proteins and
protein-like plastics which remove the tannoid half of the
tannoid+protein=haze equation.   The fault in wheat beer haze is too much of
the large proteins.  These finings remove tannoids from the beer and are
almost ineffective unless they are applied before the haze forms anyway.

Protein haze involves medium & large proteins getting 'glued' together by
tannoids until the accumulated size is comparable to a light wavelength in
size and such particles are common enough to create a visible effect.

To avoid haze (before it forms) you can reduce the tannoids or the size
and/or amount of proteins.  Gelatin, Polyclar. PVPP, are all meant to reduce
the tannoids.

After haze forms the only good solutions are 1/ to introduce protease
enzymes (difficult to control and may kill the head+body), 2/  introduce
more tannoids so to glue together more proteins till the particles are so
large they will sediment quickly, or 3/ allow long times or ultra-filtration
methods to remove haze particles.

The haze will decrease with cold lagering, and that may be a good solution.
I've also experimented with adding tannins to beer from the very bitter part
of the inner shell in pecans.  The fuzzy surfaced part of the shell between
and around the nut halves are full of gallotannins (true tannins) which
*may* cause your protein haze to drop like a stone.  I've tried this once
with good results.  In excess this stuff will cause a bitter flavor - but in
moderation it should wind up in the haze sediment.  I'd shoot for 1/2tsp
(2.5cc) of this stuff loosely packed and I'd be prepared to remove it in a
couple days.  The haze sedimentation will take a longer period - several
days to a couple weeks.

 -S






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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:21:37 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Copper and Acids


This one takes me way back - so long I wouldn't even know where in the
archives to go looking. Copper does react with hydrogen ions in
water/wort it's just that the reactions are not thermodynamically
favorable. It was from consideration of this problem that I learned that
"below hydrogen in the electromotive series" doesn't mean the reaction
doesn't take place, just that it doesn't take place to any great extent.
To demonstrate that it does, I took a clean, new penny and put it in a
beaker of distilled water where it stayed for a couple of days at the
conclusion of which I checked the water for copper ions. There was a
measureable amount. The acid source here was the carbonic from dissolved
atmospheric CO2. "Deionized" water typically has a pH in the 5's after
exposure to air.

A.J.



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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:32:53 -0400
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: pre-set sparge water amounts

I do something like Nathan does regarding how long to sparge.  I believe
this came from Fix in his Vienna/Oktoberfest book:  sparge with roughly
the same volume of water that you mashed in with.  If you use a fairly
standard 1.25-1.33 qt/lb strike-water to grain ratio and sparge slowly,
you'll collect plenty of fermentables.  The bonus is that Fix suggests that
under-sparging like this yields a higher quality wort as the earlier
runnings
are superior.  (Recall the no-sparge discussion?  Same idea, a little more
frugal)
I believe Steve A also touched on stopping the sparge a little early with
the
goal of a better wort.

Anyway, works for me... if the collected wort's SG is too high, I dilute
with
water.

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Can.
PS Hey Prince George, give us back our hockey team... ;^)


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:01:34 -0400
From: "Membrino, Tim" <tim.membrino at cytyc.com>
Subject: cold plate in refrigerator for dispensing

I've been searching the hbd archives and as usual I'm more confused than
when I started.  

Several years ago I obtained a cold plate that I've used in a jockey box
for dispensing from my corney kegs.  Now that I have a bar in my
basement I'd like to setup a more permanent solution.  My plan is to put
the cold plate in a small dorm style refrigerator and leave the kegs at
room temperature.  I plan to install a tower tap on the bar for
dispensing.

Now I could go ahead and do some heat transfer calculations for this to
determine how effective it would be - but that sounds too much like
work.  A better solution is to ask the hbd for some empirical data.
Will I get adequate cooling of the beer if I use the cold plate this
way?  At one time someone suggested that I'd be better off positioning
the cold plate in a bath of water to improve heat transfer rates -
sounds reasonable enough to me.  The hbd archives showed some
conflicting reports on the feasibility of my approach.

Since I don't acutally have the dorm refrigerator I'm in the process of
hunting for a used one (found several in my area).  But I'm starting to
wonder if I'd just be better off buying a used chest freezer and keeping
the kegs in there - plus I'd have the benefit of a potential lagering
solution that way - but finding room for the chest freezer is another
problem.

As usual any advice would be helpful.

Tim Membrino
Acton, Mass.


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:45:38 -0400
From: "Membrino, Tim" <tim.membrino at cytyc.com>
Subject: Sankey keg source?

Anyone in the Boston MA area know of a good source for used Sankey kegs
to convert to tuns and kettles?  I'm planning to call around but in the
past I've gotten less than stellar responses from metal scrap yards.

Thanks!

Tim Membrino
Acton, Mass


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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:12:32 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: Pumpkin Ale 2001

I hope this answers everyone's questions about how 
My Pumpkin ale turned out.

Brew date was September 22nd 2001

Measured 6,500 grams of pumpkin meat from the 2 medium
sized pumpkins I'd bought. Baked at 350 for a little over an hour.

This converts to 14.33 lbs of meat, and mashing 30% grain 
with this will be 4.3 lbs of grain. I threw in the liquid and 
strings and seeds that were in the bottom of the cookie sheet 
pans I used to bake on. Don't put the pumpkin on a flat sheet, 
as they will lose liquid and it will run all over the oven 
and make more mess for SWMBO to complain about.

I mashed the pumpkin meat in the same manner as Jeff Renner 
does in his CAP/CACA recipes and added 30% grain to mash. 
(Tried to follow his procedure substituting the pumpkin 
for the corn)

I didn't think I needed to boil the mash afterwards, as the 
pumpkin meat was already cooked, and then mashed. 
Smelled yummy, and it was a nice orange color.

Added grain at 12530 F and raised temp to 155F about 
30 minutes. Mash seemed to get thinner. Put into 170F 
oven for an hour mash cycle and then got the main mash 
measured out and ready.

The Main Mash

Made up of 14 pounds of 2row Schriers' Pale Ale malt. 
Added pumpkin mash at doughin along with 2 pounds 
of rice hulls and 170F water. Stabilized at 154F for the 
mash. 

The sparge stuck. Added another pound of rice hulls. 
Had to blow/suck but we got it to sparge. Took 2 hours. 

Used first wort hopping, a handful of hallertaur pellets, and 
Boiled for an hour. Ran through the counterflow chiller 
and into primary fermenter and pitched yeast. OG 1081!

I used American Ale Yeast II (Wyeast) I pitched a tad 
under a quart of slurry.

After 9 days in primary, I racked to glass carboy about 5+ 
gals and harvested 2 more containers of yeast sludge 
which a friend and I used on the Porter we did 11 Oct 2001 
which really took off well; so well, in fact, that he had a 
blowoff mess to clean up from our 2 fermenters. But 
I digress.

October 18, 2001  

Just finished racking to keg using CO2 to push from carboy 
into CO2 purged keg. FG is 1022 a bit high, but who can tell 
how much nonfermentable stuff came out of the pumpkin 
this is still a respectable 6.5% ABW. 

There is a warmth along with drinking it. The color is a nice 
orange pumpkin color, so I was able to get the color to come 
through. I do not plan to add any pumpkin pie spice to this 
at this time because I happen to like the flavor of the pumpkin 
the way it is. I like squash, too, and someone mentioned brewing 
with it too, which I need to investigate.

It is a tad cloudy, but nothing objectionable of course it 
was about 3335F. I will have to check it at 5055F to see 
if there is any difference.I crash-cooled it and did not 
add any clarifying agents.

Bob Sheck // DEA  Down East Alers  Greenville, NC 
bsheck at skantech.net // 588,130 Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:40:00 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: Now I'm really confused

OK, the way I'm understanding this concept is;

you can sparge until the Temperature-corrected
reading indicates that the true specific gravity of the
sparged wort is 1.010 (or until you have enough wort).

Is this what the concept is about?

>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:40:40 -0400
>From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
>Subject: Re: When to stop sparging
>
>Danny in West Lafayette, Indiana<dbreiden at math.purdue.edu> wrote:
>
>"So what is the practical method to know when you've hit 1.010 ... since the
>
>>Danny,
>
>
>>Take your sample and measure the gravity, then take the temperature and use
>>the chart below (based on a hydrometer calibrated to 60F):
>>60F = 1.010


Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC
bsheck at skantech.net // 588,130 Rennerian

"the only time I said 'NO' was when they asked me if I'd had enough!"



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