HOMEBREW Digest #3765 Fri 19 October 2001

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  Propane vs. LPG (Ant Hayes)
  unexpected low gravity (leavitdg)
  Rennerian coordinates calculator (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Iodophor stains (Demonick)
  RE: When to stop sparging (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Tap A Draft System ("Tom Byrnes")
  Re:  Propane Indoors ("Membrino, Tim")
  Re: When to Stop Sparging (Jeff Renner)
  Re: when to stop sparging - Retraction! ("RJ")
  RE: when to stop sparging - Retraction! (Bruce Smith)
  Sparging sentiments ("Crouch, Kevin E")
  When to stop sparging./re: wheat haze woes ("Stephen Alexander")
  Copper and Acids (AJ)
  pre-set sparge water amounts (RiedelD)
  cold plate in refrigerator for dispensing ("Membrino, Tim")
  Sankey keg source? ("Membrino, Tim")
  Pumpkin Ale 2001 (Bob Sheck)
  Now I'm really confused (Bob Sheck)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:26:35 +0200 From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za> Subject: Propane vs. LPG Why is propane more dangerous than LPG? Ant Hayes Johannesburg; South Africa Rennerian coord approx = [13 656; 125] distance in km; true bearing Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 06:56:45 -0400 (EDT) From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu Subject: unexpected low gravity I brewed a Belgian Saison, on 9/28/01, let it sit until yesterday, and was surprised when the gravity had only gone from 1.07 (OG) to 1.038 in all that time. None the less, as I siphoned into the secondary, I made a point of picking up a reasonable amount of the yeast from the bottom, and it has taken off again! Happy,...I am. Has anyone come up with similar results? I know that I kept the right temperatures, aerated,..etc.. Here is the recipe: 5 lb Pearl (2 row from NC Malt) 4 lb wheat 2 lb Vienna 2 lb Rice (I know...not called for..) .25 lb Special B first rest at 128F for 30 [I had intended 122F but overshot] 2nd rest at 148F for 45 3rd rest at 158F for 45 90 minute boil, added corriander, allspice, cinnamon,lemon peel,cumin minimal hops 1 oz Hallertau at start of final 60 1/2 oz Hal at 30 none at end I have hopes that this will survive...but need to know if anyone has experienced similar gravity at the end of the primary.... I guess that I failed to mention that I did not use a starter, but used a vial of wlp belgian saison...perhaps that is the issue? Not enough yeasties for a 1.07 starting gravity? Well,...if so , the next batch that I brewed should be better: I pitched a "Raison Saison" onto the yeast cake...2 lb of raisons...kept at 170F placed into the cooling wort...(more of a porter recipe this time)..just to see what happens.. Enough! Happy Brewing! .Darrell Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:08:29 -0400 From: "Jones, Steve (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com> Subject: Rennerian coordinates calculator Beerlings and other types; For those who would like to participate in the call for rennerian coordinates in your sig line, here you go. I've written a javascript calculator and put it on my website (link below). All you need to know is your longitude and latitude, which I explain how to get for those in the US (Sorry bout that - it's based on zip codes). Just plug in your long/lat & click. It will give your distance, bearing from the center of the homebrewing universe, and you can copy & paste to your sig in your email client. It would be good to include your City/State too. Steve Jones Johnson City, TN [422.5, 169] Rennerian http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:20:54 -0700 From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com> Subject: Iodophor stains From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> > Brewers: has anyone found an effective way to remove the tea-coloured > stains that iodophor leaves on a light-coloured counter top? Last > night I hit them This is just a guess. You might try hydrogen peroxide, but test it first somewhere out of sight. You might also try low heat. Domenick Venezia Venezia & Company, LLC Maker of PrimeTab (206) 782-1152 phone (206) 782-6766 fax demonick at zgi dot com http://www.primetab.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:30:58 -0400 From: "Jones, Steve (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com> Subject: RE: When to stop sparging I'm with Nathan on this one, and if I ever get to Madison, I'll take you up on the pints. When I first decided to do check on the gravity of my last runnings from the sparge, I did this: For several (around 5 or 6 - notes are at home) consecutive batches, when I had finished collecting the right amount of wort, I tooka sample, crash-cooled it (without the use of a jet engine) and took an SG reading. Ya know what? they were all above 1.008, so I don't bother anymore. I use Promash, and I calculate the water needed by specifying that I will leave 1-2 gallons (depending on batch size) in the lauter tun - this way I never run the mash dry when sparging. Steve Jones Johnson City, TN [422.5, 169] Rennerian Try the Rennerian Coordinates Calculator at http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:35:05 -0400 From: "Tom Byrnes" <kmstfb2 at exis.net> Subject: Tap A Draft System I just saw the new Tap a Draft sytem for kegging. Does anyone ahve any personal experience with this system? Does it live up to the reveiws and descriptions. Does is work as good as advertised. Thanks Tom Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:48:27 -0400 From: "Membrino, Tim" <tim.membrino at cytyc.com> Subject: Re: Propane Indoors The discussion on the dangers of using Propane indoors got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing) - I understand why it's dangerous to use a Propane tank right after taking if from the cold outside to the warm inside (expansion issues). But let's say I want to brew in my garage with the doors wide open in the winter. I prefer not to store the Propane tank in the garage for safety reasons - so I leave it on the deck (maybe that's not really safe either?). Now if I want to brew in the garage should I take the tank inside the garage and allow it to come to thermal equilibrium for an hour or so before using it? Or am I really being overly anal and just need to get a pint? A homebrewing friend sent me the following link yesterday - I guess "Beer" was the word of the day! http://www.travlang.com/wordofday/47.html Tim Membrino Acton, Massachusetts Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:10:42 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net> Subject: Re: When to Stop Sparging Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu> wrote: >Jeff Renner's got a refractometer. What a toy! I'll bet that Jeff would >tell you that it's just an expensive toy It's better than that. It was an unused surplus piece of equipment from my wife's hospital lab. Her boss was clearing things out about five years ago and told her to get rid of it. Nobody could remember who had ordered it or why (presumably a backup for automated equipment), and it had been in a drawer for years. They could have sent it to property disposition, but they get charged a fee for that, so she told her I could have it! Pretty neat, huh? It's high class Japanese optics with a urine protein scale and urine specific gravity scale (that's why the lab had it), and, fortunately for me, a scale for index of refraction, which is what I use, along with a chart from the CRC Handbook to convert to degrees Plato. I've checked it several times against a hydrometer and it agrees within 0.1P, which is as close as I can read either instrument. I like to monitor my runoff SG, especially when I am doing a new recipe. This makes it really easy. As Nathan says, it isn't strictly necessary, but I like to do it. I also check pH, but very rarely. But the most important use is that it allows me to check the gravity of the wort as I approach the end of boil and make adjustments to hit my target. I'd rather adjust to the target OG than the target volume of wort. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:21:07 -0400 From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net> Subject: Re: when to stop sparging - Retraction! Sorry Folks, But, I was wrong in my post a few days ago, regarding "when to stop sparging". My numbers were backwards <sigh>. Thanks "Happydog" for setting me straight. I was baseing my info on the hydro calculator in ProMash v1.5a which I was reading wrong; (Personally, I go by sight, smell, taste & time). At any rate, here is the corrected chart in degrees F with a Hydrometer Calibrated to 60F (degree value given is the break point at change): 149=0.991 148=0.992 145=0.993 142=0.994 138=0.995 135=0.996 131=0.997 128=0.998 124=0.999 120=1.000 116=1.001 112=1.002 107=1.003 103=1.004 98=1.005 92=1.006 87=1.007 80=1.008 73=1.009 65=1.010 53=1.011 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:41:56 -0700 From: Bruce Smith <bsmith at mail.dicon.com> Subject: RE: when to stop sparging - Retraction! - -----Original Message----- From: RJ [mailto:wortsup at metrocast.net] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 8:21 AM Subject: Re: when to stop sparging - Retraction! Sorry Folks,<etc) Ok I goof (alot) sometimes. My name is Bruce Smith from San Diego California. I have been brewing for about six or seven years now. All grain for most of that. I lurk the HBD and reply personaly because I don't want to get flamed for anything stupid I might post. Anyway good luck BTW you can also use (brewsmith at worldnet.att.net)to contact me. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:01:18 -0000 From: "Crouch, Kevin E" <Crouch.Kevin at emeryworld.com> Subject: Sparging sentiments Nathan Kanous wrote... >I've tried measuring the SG of the runoff. You know >what? Seems like too much work for me...it's [Charlie Papazians system] >worked for me for 6+ years. I think I make some decent beer at my house. Nathan, you make point strong like bear, loud like foghorn. I too had a simple sparge system for 5 years or more and made beers that I could really get into. Then I started to feel like I was doing something wrong because I didn't know what the thermal mass of my mash tun was! All grain brewing on a small scale can be made as simple as making drip coffee, or as complicated as a half-caf, nonfat, double-shot, wet machiatto, yet we can still enjoy it every bit as much. What is important is that one develops a philosophy of homebrewing that allows one to weed out the chaff from these posts and focus on just making beer that THEY like while enjoying the process. Personally, when I made the move to larger scale systems,(20 gals) and tried to raise the quality of my beer to the next level, I found that the truths that guided me in making 5 gallons just didn't hold up anymore. I found that I couldn't just flush the toilet on the tun, I had to work harder to keep hot-side oxidation down, and boiling large volumes for extended periods made nailing gravity, IBU, and color targets extremely problematic. I floundered for a while and became less and less satisfied with the fruits of my brewing. Why? I realized that I had too many sails and too few ropes. My own expectations were too lofty for the level of control I had over my process. I needed a personal philosophy to guide me. I found that most homebrew writers, like Papazian, brainwash you with THEIR philosophy rather than simply laying the ground rules and encouraging you to define your own. I realized that it really DID matter to me that I nailed the bitternes to gravity ratio right on, and that I hated the taste of crystal malt, and that chill haze sucks when the red, brown, or golden hues of my beers fill me with more pride than the red, white, and blue of the stars and stripes. I make love to my beer..I'm practically married to it. I know *exactly* what flavor I want out of my beer, and I will try anything once to achieve it. The idea here is, that you can make good beer from a can, without a hydrometer, in an aluminum pot(though I wouldn't recommend it), with dry yeast fermented at whatever temperature your house might be at. The methods merely reflect the intent, not the skill. Some people feel that Boddingtons should be kept on the same shelf as Oly tall cans, others feel it to have been divinely inspired. Which one are you? Kevin in the 'Couve, Washington. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:19:51 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net> Subject: When to stop sparging./re: wheat haze woes I previously wrote: >Forget the calculator - sparge till the hot runnings drop under 1.002SG, >then it's time to stop. which caused a flurry of questions from some of the more astute HBDers. Obviously My statement was unclear. The ever practical John Schnupp - gets directly to my point . ... > Are there not temperature > correction factors? Hydrometers are "supposed" to read specific gravity(SG), the ratio of the density of a sample to the density of water at some 'spec' temperature. All the hydrometers I've come across, including my NIST traceable ERTCO's use the archaic 60F(15.55C) as the spec temperature. To properly read SG you need to cool the sample to 60F. To estimate SG we can afford to measure hot wort and use a temperature correction term. As JohnS points out, we are trying to stop sparging at some reasonable level around 1.010SG. and a couple SG degrees (0.001 - 1 SG degree) doesn't greatly matter. So what's the temperature correction ? The density of water at the spec temp of 60F(15.5C) is 0.9981. At 50C(122F) the density is 0.9880. This means that if you place your hydrometer in very hot tap water it will read (0.9880/0.9991 =) 0.989. IOW the hydrometer will read about 11 SG degrees low at this temperature. We could also correct for the wort extract fraction which isn't changing density so much - but the difference is small (a few percent) and we are looking for a rule of thumb. So to roughly correct your hydrometer readings when measuring a *hot* sparge runoff you need to add a correction factor around 0.011 to the reading. At 40C(104F) add 0.007 to the reading At 50C(122F) add 0.011 At 60C(140F) add 0.016 At 70C(158F) add 0.021 With my apparatus, by the time the late runnings get into a hydrometer jar the temp is around 50C and I should add 0.011 to the reading to correct for the temperature. If you want you could measure the sparge temp (in the hydrometer jar) a few times and interpolate from the table above to get your personal correction term. If I wanted to stop sparging at 1.015SG, then my target reading of the hot wort would be (1.015 - 0.011=) 1.004 at 50C , for example. === I think it's useful to measure sparge SG over a few brews so you can control your brewing process better. Once you learn this rule of thumb correction it's a great to be able to estimate the sparge SG without chilling wort or a calculator. As I mentioned it's also useful to taste the late runnings and get a handle on the flavor changes that are occurring. I almost agree with Nathan Kanous - if you keep track of the total water (mash+sparge) there is almost no need to measure sparge SG, except as verification. Also it's no fault to cut the sparge at a higher SG. One of the advantages we have over commercial brewers is that we can afford to ignore efficiency and cost in favor of flavor. Add an extra pound of grist, stop the sparge at 1.025 and see if you aren't happier with the flavor ! ==== Steven S writes ... >[...] Raspberry Wheat [...] murky [...] 5lbs of torrified wheat, [...] >Would it be logical to probably do a protein rest of the wheat first? Yes, or of the entire mash. >I'm using american 2-row as my base grain American or Continental pale/pils malt should work well. PaleAle\ malts are low in proteinase enzymes - so avoid those. >I'm thinking of dumping in some gelatin in >tomorrow to see if it helps clear it any. That's the wrong approach. Gelatin and PVPP (and Polyclar) are proteins and protein-like plastics which remove the tannoid half of the tannoid+protein=haze equation. The fault in wheat beer haze is too much of the large proteins. These finings remove tannoids from the beer and are almost ineffective unless they are applied before the haze forms anyway. Protein haze involves medium & large proteins getting 'glued' together by tannoids until the accumulated size is comparable to a light wavelength in size and such particles are common enough to create a visible effect. To avoid haze (before it forms) you can reduce the tannoids or the size and/or amount of proteins. Gelatin, Polyclar. PVPP, are all meant to reduce the tannoids. After haze forms the only good solutions are 1/ to introduce protease enzymes (difficult to control and may kill the head+body), 2/ introduce more tannoids so to glue together more proteins till the particles are so large they will sediment quickly, or 3/ allow long times or ultra-filtration methods to remove haze particles. The haze will decrease with cold lagering, and that may be a good solution. I've also experimented with adding tannins to beer from the very bitter part of the inner shell in pecans. The fuzzy surfaced part of the shell between and around the nut halves are full of gallotannins (true tannins) which *may* cause your protein haze to drop like a stone. I've tried this once with good results. In excess this stuff will cause a bitter flavor - but in moderation it should wind up in the haze sediment. I'd shoot for 1/2tsp (2.5cc) of this stuff loosely packed and I'd be prepared to remove it in a couple days. The haze sedimentation will take a longer period - several days to a couple weeks. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:21:37 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Copper and Acids This one takes me way back - so long I wouldn't even know where in the archives to go looking. Copper does react with hydrogen ions in water/wort it's just that the reactions are not thermodynamically favorable. It was from consideration of this problem that I learned that "below hydrogen in the electromotive series" doesn't mean the reaction doesn't take place, just that it doesn't take place to any great extent. To demonstrate that it does, I took a clean, new penny and put it in a beaker of distilled water where it stayed for a couple of days at the conclusion of which I checked the water for copper ions. There was a measureable amount. The acid source here was the carbonic from dissolved atmospheric CO2. "Deionized" water typically has a pH in the 5's after exposure to air. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:32:53 -0400 From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca Subject: pre-set sparge water amounts I do something like Nathan does regarding how long to sparge. I believe this came from Fix in his Vienna/Oktoberfest book: sparge with roughly the same volume of water that you mashed in with. If you use a fairly standard 1.25-1.33 qt/lb strike-water to grain ratio and sparge slowly, you'll collect plenty of fermentables. The bonus is that Fix suggests that under-sparging like this yields a higher quality wort as the earlier runnings are superior. (Recall the no-sparge discussion? Same idea, a little more frugal) I believe Steve A also touched on stopping the sparge a little early with the goal of a better wort. Anyway, works for me... if the collected wort's SG is too high, I dilute with water. cheers, Dave Riedel Victoria, BC, Can. PS Hey Prince George, give us back our hockey team... ;^) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:01:34 -0400 From: "Membrino, Tim" <tim.membrino at cytyc.com> Subject: cold plate in refrigerator for dispensing I've been searching the hbd archives and as usual I'm more confused than when I started. Several years ago I obtained a cold plate that I've used in a jockey box for dispensing from my corney kegs. Now that I have a bar in my basement I'd like to setup a more permanent solution. My plan is to put the cold plate in a small dorm style refrigerator and leave the kegs at room temperature. I plan to install a tower tap on the bar for dispensing. Now I could go ahead and do some heat transfer calculations for this to determine how effective it would be - but that sounds too much like work. A better solution is to ask the hbd for some empirical data. Will I get adequate cooling of the beer if I use the cold plate this way? At one time someone suggested that I'd be better off positioning the cold plate in a bath of water to improve heat transfer rates - sounds reasonable enough to me. The hbd archives showed some conflicting reports on the feasibility of my approach. Since I don't acutally have the dorm refrigerator I'm in the process of hunting for a used one (found several in my area). But I'm starting to wonder if I'd just be better off buying a used chest freezer and keeping the kegs in there - plus I'd have the benefit of a potential lagering solution that way - but finding room for the chest freezer is another problem. As usual any advice would be helpful. Tim Membrino Acton, Mass. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:45:38 -0400 From: "Membrino, Tim" <tim.membrino at cytyc.com> Subject: Sankey keg source? Anyone in the Boston MA area know of a good source for used Sankey kegs to convert to tuns and kettles? I'm planning to call around but in the past I've gotten less than stellar responses from metal scrap yards. Thanks! Tim Membrino Acton, Mass Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:12:32 -0400 From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> Subject: Pumpkin Ale 2001 I hope this answers everyone's questions about how My Pumpkin ale turned out. Brew date was September 22nd 2001 Measured 6,500 grams of pumpkin meat from the 2 medium sized pumpkins I'd bought. Baked at 350 for a little over an hour. This converts to 14.33 lbs of meat, and mashing 30% grain with this will be 4.3 lbs of grain. I threw in the liquid and strings and seeds that were in the bottom of the cookie sheet pans I used to bake on. Don't put the pumpkin on a flat sheet, as they will lose liquid and it will run all over the oven and make more mess for SWMBO to complain about. I mashed the pumpkin meat in the same manner as Jeff Renner does in his CAP/CACA recipes and added 30% grain to mash. (Tried to follow his procedure substituting the pumpkin for the corn) I didn't think I needed to boil the mash afterwards, as the pumpkin meat was already cooked, and then mashed. Smelled yummy, and it was a nice orange color. Added grain at 12530 F and raised temp to 155F about 30 minutes. Mash seemed to get thinner. Put into 170F oven for an hour mash cycle and then got the main mash measured out and ready. The Main Mash Made up of 14 pounds of 2row Schriers' Pale Ale malt. Added pumpkin mash at doughin along with 2 pounds of rice hulls and 170F water. Stabilized at 154F for the mash. The sparge stuck. Added another pound of rice hulls. Had to blow/suck but we got it to sparge. Took 2 hours. Used first wort hopping, a handful of hallertaur pellets, and Boiled for an hour. Ran through the counterflow chiller and into primary fermenter and pitched yeast. OG 1081! I used American Ale Yeast II (Wyeast) I pitched a tad under a quart of slurry. After 9 days in primary, I racked to glass carboy about 5+ gals and harvested 2 more containers of yeast sludge which a friend and I used on the Porter we did 11 Oct 2001 which really took off well; so well, in fact, that he had a blowoff mess to clean up from our 2 fermenters. But I digress. October 18, 2001 Just finished racking to keg using CO2 to push from carboy into CO2 purged keg. FG is 1022 a bit high, but who can tell how much nonfermentable stuff came out of the pumpkin this is still a respectable 6.5% ABW. There is a warmth along with drinking it. The color is a nice orange pumpkin color, so I was able to get the color to come through. I do not plan to add any pumpkin pie spice to this at this time because I happen to like the flavor of the pumpkin the way it is. I like squash, too, and someone mentioned brewing with it too, which I need to investigate. It is a tad cloudy, but nothing objectionable of course it was about 3335F. I will have to check it at 5055F to see if there is any difference.I crash-cooled it and did not add any clarifying agents. Bob Sheck // DEA Down East Alers Greenville, NC bsheck at skantech.net // 588,130 Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:40:00 -0400 From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> Subject: Now I'm really confused OK, the way I'm understanding this concept is; you can sparge until the Temperature-corrected reading indicates that the true specific gravity of the sparged wort is 1.010 (or until you have enough wort). Is this what the concept is about? >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:40:40 -0400 >From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net> >Subject: Re: When to stop sparging > >Danny in West Lafayette, Indiana<dbreiden at math.purdue.edu> wrote: > >"So what is the practical method to know when you've hit 1.010 ... since the > >>Danny, > > >>Take your sample and measure the gravity, then take the temperature and use >>the chart below (based on a hydrometer calibrated to 60F): >>60F = 1.010 Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC bsheck at skantech.net // 588,130 Rennerian "the only time I said 'NO' was when they asked me if I'd had enough!" Return to table of contents
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