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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Homebrew Supplier in London (Richard Lehrl)
  Re: Rennerian coordinates calculator (gsferg)
  Re: Now I'm really confused ("RJ")
  RE:Tap A Draft System ("Brad Boes")
  rennerian coordinates ("Bridges, Scott")
  Some thoughts about yeast (Darrell.Leavitt)
  Where am I? ("Kensler, Paul")
  Re: Propane vs. LPG (Rob B)
  Iodophor Stains ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Undermodified vs. Raw (Martin_Brungard)
  Wheat Haze + Reenerian Coordinates (Steven S)
  re: Subject: Propane vs. LPG ("Ralph Davis")
  Sankey Kegs Anyone? (Richard Foote)
  propane vs. LPG (Joe Yoder)
  a pint a day ... ("Bob Sutton")
  Propane vs. LPG ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Iodophor Stains (AJ)
  eldridge pope/thomas hardy ale ("Robin Griller")
  RE: unexpected low gravity (Brian Levetzow)
  carbonated cider ("Milone, Gilbert")
  re: unexpected low gravity (Spencer W Thomas)
  Silicon (Spencer W Thomas)
  n/a beer (lonkelm)


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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:56:37 +0200
From: Richard Lehrl <r.lehrl at utanet.at>
Subject: Homebrew Supplier in London

Hello,
I will go to London next week and would like to buy some homebrew stuff 
there. I know:
 - "The Homebrew Shop" in Farnborough (which is excellent but difficult 
to reach)
 - "Spencers Homebrew" in Rainers Lane (which is rather small)
 - and a shop in Ealing (which has very limited supply)

Can someone recommend a good shop in London which is easy to reach by 
public transport?

Thank you,
Richard

r.lehrl at utanet.at



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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:33:54 -0400
From: gsferg at clary.gwi.net
Subject: Re: Rennerian coordinates calculator

>For those who would like to participate in the call for rennerian
>coordinates in your sig line, here you go.

Way Cool, especially them Tiger Maps. Mine are [729.7, 79.6] but I had to open 
(shudder) IE to get to the site, just bringing up the home page crashed my 
Netscape browser both on linux AND Windows :-)

George-

- --
George S. Fergusson <gsferg at clary.gwi.net>
Oracle DBA, Programmer, Humorist
Whitefield, Maine US [729.7, 79.6] Renerian
- --------------
I am a man, I can change, if I have to, I guess.




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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:57:55 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Now I'm really confused

Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>

OK, the way I'm understanding this concept is;

you can sparge until the Temperature-corrected
reading indicates that the true specific gravity of the
sparged wort is 1.010 (or until you have enough wort).

Is this what the concept is about?

Bob,

The main reason for stopping the sparge is that below 1.008/1.010 SG, the
lauter/sparge will start to leach undesirables from the mash.   These
elements will have a tendency to make the brew astringent (band-aid flavors
come to mind) in the final product.

I generally use the same infusion program (rest temps will vary with grains
used and what I'm striving to achieve in the final product) 1.33qts/lb at
strike, ~1/2 qt/lb at 2nd infusion, possibly direct heat steps as well, and
2 qts/lb to sparge with.   (My system blows off a 24% evaporation rate, so
my starting wort size may be as high as 9 gallons to make 5-1/4 gallons).

I must point out that I haven't used a hydrometer to verify the results for
a long, long time... But using one in the beginning, gave me an insight into
what I now do.

Nowadays, I go by taste, smell, color and time to determine when the sparge
should end.   If I do end it early, I may add make-up water to the kettle to
suit my evaporation rate.




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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:12:07 -0500
From: "Brad Boes" <gerald.boes at verizon.net>
Subject: RE:Tap A Draft System

***********************************************************
Tom Byrnes asked-
 I just saw the new Tap a Draft sytem for kegging. Does anyone ahve    any
personal
experience with this system? Does it live up to the reveiws and
descriptions.
Does is work as good as advertised. Thanks Tom
***********************************************************

I have been using the Tap A draft System for a little bit,  and so far it's
worked just as advertised on the More Beer site.  There have been absolutley
no surprises.  It's easy, pretty cheap, does the job.  I guess if there were
anything negative to say, it would be that it's a tiny bit slow pouring a
beer.  But that's really not a big deal, at least not for me.

Hope that helps-

Brad Boes
Princeton, Il
[6648.2, 90.6] Rennerian




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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:23:14 -0400
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: rennerian coordinates


Steve writes:
>I've written a javascript calculator and put it on my website (link below).
>All you need to know is your longitude and latitude, which I explain how to
>get for those in the US (Sorry bout that - it's based on zip codes). Just
>plug in your long/lat & click. It will give your distance, bearing from the
>center of the homebrewing universe, and you can copy & paste to your sig in
>your email client. It would be good to include your City/State too.

I should already know this, but is the bearing from the observer to the
center of the brewing universe or from the center of the brewing universe to
the observer?  Of course, it's a reciprocal bearing (i.e., difference of 180
degrees).  I just want to make sure that I am using the proper protocol when
I quote my rennerian coordinates.  

Scott
Brewing in Columbia, SC



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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:12:53 -0400
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: Some thoughts about yeast

I think a lot about yeast:

          What type is best for what style?
          What temperatures do they prefer?
          What nutrients do they prefer?
          When are they ready for more food?
                        When are they happy?
          What makes them sad?

Perhaps more for those of us who try to re-use yeast, we think about yeast
A LOT!

Now, I am not complaining just making an observation.

Have you ever seen a real small person walking a HUGE dog and have
 you ever wondered  :
who is walking who?

Well that is how I am now thinking about yeast.  I find that my brewing
schedule is
 largely determined by the needs of the yeast, and much of my waking day is
determined by their selfish needs!  If the primary ready to go to
secondary,
 and if the yeast still viable, it should therefore be re-used, then,
 I NEED TO BREW!

That is how it works for me
So, (now I am getting to the point of this treatise) am I using the yeast,
 or is it using me?  I suppose that many might say that it is symbiotic;
 the yeast needs me, and I need them.
 But that is the easy way out, isn't it?

I suggest that the yeast are using us and we need liberation from the yoke
 of their never ending demands!

Now, one solution: don't buy yeast.

But then we are just pretending that we don't want them,
inwardly we still need them, we need to feed them,
we need to harvest their products,
we need to see them bubbling away in the corner,
happily eating up all of the sugars that they have demanded for their use.

I contend that we are slaves of the yeast.
 We are fundamentally UNABLE to not feed them.
 We are unable to not pay attention to the temperature,and if,
by chance we do slip up, what happens?
We feel guilty as hell that we have not served them well!

So where am I going with all this?
What shall one do?
Is there any choice?
 Who was the dude who said that knowing our chains
was freedom (Lennin?)

Does this mean that if we clearly see our place,
that we are then free?  I am not sure.

Am I free if I stop feeding the yeast?
 Am I free if I continue to feed them, but am aware of it?
 What does it mean to be aware of oneself in the process of feeding yeast?

I need a homebrew!
 ....Darrell






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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:27:20 -0400
From: "Kensler, Paul" <PKensler at cyberstar.com>
Subject: Where am I?

OK, now I'm confused -
Is the Henning system for Rennarian coordinates [bearing, distance] or
[distance, bearing] ?!

I believe The Renner defines it as [bearing, distance] but Steve Jones' most
excellent web calculator gives the coordinates as [distance, bearing].
Where's Jason Henning stand on the matter?

I don't know where I am but I know I'm brewing a Kolsch this weekend!


Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD
[412, 123]  -or-  [123, 412]


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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:26:59 +1000
From: Rob B <rbyrnes at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Propane vs. LPG

At 14:12 19/10/2001, Ant Hayes muttered something like:
>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:26:35 +0200
>From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
>Subject: Propane vs. LPG
>
>Why is propane more dangerous than LPG?

Propane (well, in Australia at least) is the main constituent of LPG, so it 
isn't any more or less dangerous.

I remember something about Propane (LPG) being considered a little more 
dangerous than Natural Gas, but can't remember the details.

Cheers,
Rob
Sydney, Australia


- --
Portions of the preceding were recorded. As for the rest of it, I'm very 
much afraid it was all in your mind.

This is random quote 821 of a collection of 1166



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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:53:33 -0400
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Iodophor Stains

Drew Davis asks about removing iodophor stains.  Sometimes this works for 
me.  Every now and then it doesn't.  I haven't bothered to try to determine 
the limiting factors.

Try a strong reducing agent like sodium metabisulfite.  I couldn't tell you 
where to find this in the hardware store (or even if you could), but you 
might be able to finagle some from an industrial laundry supply.  It would 
be called "anti-chlor."

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
www.ecologiccleansers.com

Each small candle...



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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:44:41 -0400
From: Martin_Brungard at urscorp.com
Subject: Undermodified vs. Raw

The recent discussions on the merits of undermodified barley for certain
beers and brewing techniques are very interesting.  I especially appreciate
the insight Steve Alexander provided.

There is an aspect of undermodified grain that I want to pose to the
collective.  If undermodified grain just has less of the kernel converted,
does that also mean that the unconverted portion is still raw?  If this is
the case, couldn't the effect of undermodified grain be mimicked by adding
a portion of raw barley (flaked or whole(if you can find it)) to the grist
along with well-modified barley that we commonly have available?

Looking at the undermodified barley specs, it appears that the
undermodification is on the order of 10 to 15 percent based on the
acrospire length data.  Could this mean that using 10 to 15 percent raw
barley might produce the same effect.  I assume that the raw barley would
require the same low temp rests to properly convert the mash.

I think this subject is intriguing, I hope to hear from the more learned
folks here.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:51:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven S <stevensl at corp.earthlink.net>
Subject: Wheat Haze + Reenerian Coordinates


I've decided to just bottle my Raspberry Wheat, let it sit for a week or
two then chill it for a few weeks to see what happens. Overall is was a
quite "clear" before I racked over the raspberries. I've stuck it outside
overnight, its been in the 30's, and its cleared a little bit so I have
hope. Quite frankly it just has to taste good but I didnt want to serve
people red dish water.

According to the Rennerian Coordinates Calculator i'm

[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian
Lilburn (atlanta) GA

 Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net

"Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers which they dare not dismount. 
And the tigers are getting hungry." Winston Churchill - 1937




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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:01:37 -0400
From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com>
Subject: re: Subject: Propane vs. LPG

"Why is propane more dangerous than LPG?

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg; South Africa
Rennerian coord approx = [13 656; 125] distance in km; true bearing"

Propane IS Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG).  A better question would be, why
is propane/LPG more dangerous than Natural Gas?

Anyone living in a semi-rural area will tell you people use propane/LPG for
heat and stoves just as if it were Natural Gas.  The only difference is a
truck comes ever few weeks to fill up your OUTSIDE tanks.

That's probably key, propane should never be used indoors unless the tanks
are properly stored OUTDOORS...  That way there's no chance of the
heavier-than-air gas leaking into your basement and blowing you up.
Besides, either propane or natural gas will blow up a home if not installed
and used appropriately.  I heat with propane, and its very comfortable--my
system is professionally installed and maintained, so I'm fine with it.
Good things come with risks....besides, its the manly thing to do!


Ralph W. Davis




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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:32:38 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Sankey Kegs Anyone?


Tim Membrino
Acton, Mass

Writes:

>Anyone in the Boston MA area know of a good source for used Sankey kegs
>to convert to tuns and kettles?  I'm planning to call around but in the
>past I've gotten less than stellar responses from metal scrap yards.

I have posted before of my experience finding a great scrap yard in New
Hampster.  I scored a bunch of cornies, Sankeys and parts thereof.
Recently, (now in GA) I went to my local scrap metal recycler to get rid of
said Sankeys (sorry--they were the ones with plastic tops and bottoms so no
good for brewing vessels).  The person who waited on me gave me an
inquisitive look and asked me where I got these (remember: They are
"property of...").  I told him I've had them for quite some time and got
them from a scap yard in NH.  I actually didn't have to lie!  By the tone
of his questioning and knowing the "property of" bit, I sensed I was in
touchy territory.  So I guess what I am saying is be warned.

When kegs are no longer usable by the owner (brewery) they are not going to
throw then away, unless they don't have a clue.  Kegs, being made of ss,
have a relatively high value on the scrap market.  Scrap metal recyclers
will offer $$$ for them and the owner does not have to pay disposal.  I'm
sure the "big boys" would contract with large, national scrap marketers or
direct with mills.  Micros likely handle things a little closer to home.
You might try your local brewery to see if they have any kegs they want to
get rid of.  They may have some in fine shape that just don't hold
pressure, which doesn't matter for our purposes.  Offer to pay them what
they are used to getting for scrap value (or maybe a little more).  Support
your local brewery.  Just an idea.

I also understand that when you buy a keg of commercial brew, they now take
your name and address, ask for I.D. and what not (others may have more
info. on this).

Things seem to be tightening up.  Good luck.  Hope this helps.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA
Unknown (currently) Rennerian



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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:36:19 -0500
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: propane vs. LPG

Ant asks, "Why is propane more dangerous than LPG?"

A trick question, I am sure.  LPG = liquid propane gas.  Here is a good
site about uses and safety:   http://www.lpga.co.uk/LPG_srch.htm

What Ant probably wants to know is why is LPG (propane) more dangerous
than Natural Gas and the answer is relative density.  Propane is about
1.5 times heavier than air and will accumulate in low areas of a
structure.  Natural gas is mostly methane (it is a mix of hydrocarbons)
that is lighter than air and so will tend to find a way out of a
ventilated area.  It can still be dangerous, but just the fact that it
is not accumulating in low spaces makes it a bit safer.

Be careful out there!!
Joe Yoder
Lawrence, KS





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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:49:34 -0400
From: "Bob Sutton" <Bob at homebrew.com>
Subject: a pint a day ...

http://sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-1018beer.story?coll=sfla
%2Dhome%2Dheadlines

summer's gone :-(
time to brew ;-)

Cheers  - from the foothills of SC
Bob
Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today




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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:28:49 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Propane vs. LPG

Ant Hayes asked: Why is propane more dangerous than LPG?

I think you mean "Why is LPG (Liquid Propane Gas) more dangerous than
natural gas?"
In the end there's not much difference between the gasses.  A room full of
propane is as dangerous as natural gas.  While one is more powerful than the
other, both are explosive under the right mixture of oxygen and can
kill/hurt/burn you just the same.  I would consider LPG to be more dangerous
than natural gas since it is readily available in small, portable containers
allowing us to do many more stupid things with it.  

For example, it is easier (for most people) to put a 20lb tank of LPG in the
basement than it is to keep the tank outside and run a line into the
basement or split off a natural gas line in the basement.  Either way a leak
in the line can fill a room and become an explosion or suffocation hazard.
Keeping the tank outside allows leaks at the tank to dissipate into the air
thereby eliminating one source of hazard.  Additionally, most houses have a
furnace and/or water heater in the basement.  These are great iginition
sources for accumulating gas leaks.  

If the tank explodes, it would be better to explode outside of the house
than within the confined space of your basement.  Outside of the house, much
of the force is directed away from your walls.  Inside the basement, your
floor and walls will serve to direct the force through any windows you may
have and upwards into the living space of your home.

If you use an LPG tank inside the house (not reccomended), then at least
leak check the line, fittings and valves during installation and after any
modifications or tank changes.  Periodic testing wouldn't hurt either.

At least that's the 2 cents of a former firefighter.

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke
High Bridge, NJ 

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal




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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:14:07 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Iodophor Stains


Forgot to mention this yesterday. You either oxidize the stuff or reduce
it or leave it until it evaporates. Bleach is a suitable oxidizer (never
tried peroxide) , metabite (Campden tablets) and photographic hypo are
suitable reducing agents.

A.J.





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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:22:19 -0400
From: "Robin Griller" <robin_g at ica.net>
Subject: eldridge pope/thomas hardy ale

Hi all,

Don't know if anyone has pointed all this out before, but Eldridge Pope,
who brewed Thomas Hardy Ale, separated out their brewing and pub wings some
time ago, then cancelled some of their beers (including Thomas Hardy Ale)
and are now wiping out the lot (Royal Oak, etc.) in their 

see article at camra's website:

http://www.camra.org.uk/whatsbrewing/wbnewsarticle4.htm

Crap huh?

Robin



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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:40:22 -0400
From: Brian Levetzow <levetzowbt at home.com>
Subject: RE: unexpected low gravity

 .Darrell wrote:
>I brewed a Belgian Saison, on 9/28/01, let it sit until yesterday,
>and was surprised when the gravity had only gone from 1.07 (OG) to
>1.038  in all that time.  None the less, as I siphoned into the 
>secondary, I made a point of picking up a reasonable amount of the yeast
>from the bottom, and it has taken off again!  Happy,...I am.
>
>Has anyone come up with similar results?

>From the White Labs site:
"WLP565- Belgian Saison I Yeast:

Classic Saison yeast from Wallonia. It produces earthy, peppery, and
spicy notes. Slightly sweet. With high gravity saisons, brewers may wish
to dry the beer with an alternate yeast added after 75% fermentation."

The Saison I made was brewed on 9/8, OG 1.060 (not quite as big as
yours), but it got down to 1.014 when I racked on 9/16.  Finished at
1.012.  And this vial was 2 years old!

I'd just let it go for a while in the 2ndary.  If needed, pick another
yeast to finish out with as recommended by White Labs.
- -- 
+++++++++++++++
Brian Levetzow
~
Laurel, MD
Rennerian coords [425.7,118.5]


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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:52:50 -0400
From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone at uconn.edu>
Subject: carbonated cider

Hi All,
	I know this isn't beer, but it is sort of mead. Have any of you
successfully made card cider that is more like woodchuck draft? I've read a
lot of recipe's, but all of them seem to make a still cider which is more
like wine. My signifigant other, would like me to make something that she
will enjoy drinking, and cider seems to be the one. Just curious about how
to go about making a lower alcohol carbonated hard cider. Say around 5% as
opposed to 10+%
 -Gil Milone


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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:40:30 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: re: unexpected low gravity

I know this is not what you asked, but...

Doesn't sound like you used enough hops to me.  Saison is
normally a fairly well-hopped beer (not like an IPA, but
defnitely more than an ounce of bittering hops).  BJCP
guidelines list IBUs as ranging from 20 to 45.  I would expect
an ounce of Hallertau (4%?) to contribute at most 16 IBUs, and
your 1/2 ounce at 30 min will have contributed a few more, but
you're defintely at the low end of the range.

See if you can find a bottle of Saison Dupont (750ml).  It's
considered the classic example, and is assertively bittered.

Back to your question...  You don't mention the fermentation
temperature. Many Belgian yeasts like it warm.  Try warming it
to at least 70F, perhaps a little warmer, and see if it kicks
back in.

Also, you can do a "forced fermentation test" to see where it
"should" it in a warm place (80F is good) such as the top of
the fridge (usually pretty warm due to heat from the condensor
coils).  Fermentation should finish fairly quickly under these
conditions, and should go to completion.  Then you can measure
the SG of this sample.  Your main batch probably won't get to
quite that SG, but it should get close.  (If it doesn't, you'll
risk bottle bombs.)

=Spencer



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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:43:09 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Silicon

I dunno why, this just bugs me.

Silicon is an element.  It's crystalline and hard. Electronic "chips"
are made from it.  It is not useful for sealing cracks and gaps in
brewing equipment (nor for caulking windows).

Silicone (note the "E" on the end!) is that soft gooey stuff that
makes good caulk, high-temperature hoses, etc.

Thanks.

=Spencer


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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:08:20 -0400
From: lonkelm at netzero.net
Subject: n/a beer

Is there a way to make a n/a beer at home or with some basic 
equipment.  I'm looking for ideas outside of watering down beer.  
What is this vacuum method of removing alcohol?


Lonzo McLaughlin
lonkelm at yahoo.com
- ----------------------------------------------------
Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today
Only $9.95 per month!
http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97


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---