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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  R.E. Porter ("David G. Humes")
  re: Sour Cherries ("Mark Tumarkin")
  re: Stainless vs. Brass ("C.D. Pritchard")
  RE:Stainless vs. Brass ("Rogers, Mike")
  Re:  Stainless vs. Brass ("Dennis Collins")
  wort chiller thermodynamics (Rolf Karlsson)
  Split Rock Homebrew Competition - Final Notice ("Houseman, David L")
  CPBF Competition Beers ("Houseman, David L")
  stainless versus brass (The Freemans)
  Re: lager yeast (Rick Magnan)
  re: Stainless vs. Brass ("Kensler, Paul")
  RE: Wort Chiller Efficiency ("John Bonney")
  Red Seal Ale Recipe (Dryw Blanchard)
  RE: lysozyme (Brian Lundeen)
  Tetley's Ale Clone (Dan Imperato)
  RE:wort chiller efficiency ("Crouch, Kevin E")
  Rob Nelson & beer.about.com (Aaron Stroud)
  From Laurie Fix (Bentlybear)
  pretzels / lye (Paul Kerchefske)


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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:13:16 -0500
From: "David G. Humes" <dhumes001 at home.com>
Subject: R.E. Porter

David,

I ran into the same problem with a Porter I made a few weeks ago.  When I
was formulating the recipe in Promash the color kept coming up too light
even though the amount of chocolate malt was consistent with other published
recipes claiming to have a higher SRM level.  My recipe used 80% pale, 6.8%
crystal 55, 6.8% caramel 60, and 6.8% chocolate.  I tried each of the color
estimation methods available in Promash with the following results.

Morey  30.4
Mosher 29.0
Daniels 24.6

I believe Morey is the default in Promash and it is considered the most
accurate.  It also gave the highest estimate of the darkness.  So, I left
Promash configured to use that method.  I also cranked the formulas manually
using my recipe and came up with the same numbers as Promash.  So I do not
doubt that Promash is doing the arithmetic correctly.

So, then I took Terry Foster's "Entire Butt" Porter recipe from his Classic
Style Series book on Porter and put it in Promash.  He claims it clocks in
at 50L.  Promash estimated 23 SRM.  Quite a disparity.

My finished beer came out suitably dark for the style.  It's not opaque,
however.  The chocolate comes through nicely and I believe it could be a
little higher without becoming overwhelming.  So, I'd say your recipe should
be fine.  I doubt if you will think it is too light and I'm curious to see
how the chocolate comes through since your recipe includes a rather large
percentage.

- --Dave Humes



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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:24:55 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Sour Cherries

Peter asks about sour cherries -
"Does anyone know a source for sour cherries. Once again Charlie P mentions
using them in the latest issue of Zymurgy and I would be interested in
trying a recipe with them. What do you use ? Frozen, fresh or dried? The
recipe doesn't say."

Sorry, Peter, can't really help you with a source. I can give you a small bit
of info though. What you're likely to find here in the US as sour cherries are
'pie' cherries. While these are sour compared to a sweet eating cherry like a
Queen Anne or Bing, they are very different than the sour cherries used in
Belgian ales. There may be a variety of cherries used there as well, but one
of the common ones is the Sharbeek (sp?)cherry. Apparently, it's not all that
easy to get the right cherries even in Belgium. I remember reading that one of
the Belgian breweries (Rodenbach, I think) had to start contracting with
farmers in another country (Cezchoslovakia maybe) to grow the Sharbeek
cherries for them.

Sorry my memory is fuzzy on the details. Bottom line is that it will probably
be difficult to get real Belgian sour cherries. However, you can brew great
beer from more local materials. The label on New Glarus' phenomenal Wisconsin
Belgian Red tells us "Over a poundof Door County Cherries in every bottle
makes this ale uniquely "Wisconsin." You could try contacting the county
extension agent or the ag dept at your local university to find sources for
whatever varieties of sour cherries are grown locally.

You also ask about frozen, fresh or dried - I've used both fresh and frozen
fruit successfully in meads. In fact, many brewers freeze their fresh fruit
before using in order to break up the cells to release more flavor. I've never
tried using dried fruit but have seen it mentioned here (try the HBD archives)
in the past.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL





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Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 07:31:40
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: Stainless vs. Brass

"Craig Olson" <craigo at nas.com> posted:

>I'm in the process of setting up an all grain 10 gallon home brew system &
>am having trouble finding stainless fittings.  

http://PlumbingSupply.Com carries a decent stock of stainless fittings as
does McMaster Carr.

>The guy at the plumbing shop told me that brass has the same alloy 
>composition as copper so stainless isn't really needed. 

Close- brass is an alloy of copper, tin, and sometimes other elements (e.g.
lead).  For low usage equipment like homebreweries, brass is OK if you
treat it to remove the surface lead.  John Palmer has posted a great way to
do this.


c.d. pritchard  cdp at chattanooga.net
http://hbd.org/cdp/   http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:29:47 -0500 
From: "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com>
Subject: RE:Stainless vs. Brass

I recently (within the past month) converted kegs to a boiler and HLT.  I
used all stainless.  I bought the Zymico weldless fittings from Brewer's
Rendezvous.  I also bought the Sanke adapter and Bazooka Tee (for straining
in the boiler), as well as the Sight Windows and Thermometer.  I am very
satisfied.  Free shipping.  I initially just looked at their products online
and then stopped at several local plumbing stores, but I found the Stainless
fittings to be just about the same price, if they shop even stocked them...
I wish I would have just bought it all at one time over the web.  The
following link has every thing you need.

http://www.bobbrews.com/zymico.html

Morebeer http://www.morebeer.com/ also offers the same or similar products. 


Mike Rogers
Cass River Homebrewers - Mid Michigan
www.geocities.com\cassriverhomebrewers\beer
mailto:mike01_rogers at yahoo.com


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Original Message:  Homebrew Digest #3777 (November 02, 2001)
From: "Craig Olson" <craigo at nas.com>
Subject: Stainless vs. Brass
I'm in the process of setting up an all grain 10 gallon home brew system &
am having trouble finding stainless fittings.  





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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:38:54 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  Stainless vs. Brass

Craig Olson asks about Stainless vs. Brass.

What a can of worms this one is.  There are the purists who model their home
breweries after large volume breweries, using only 316 stainless steel for
everything and paying dearly for it, but are content in their own minds that
they now have the best.  Then there are those who have patched together
their brewery with chewing gum, duct tape, and yes, brass fittings.  The
verdict?  Excellent beer made from both systems.  Procedures come before
equipment (by a long shot).  Let the debate begin.

Craig, from a practical standpoint, I wouldn't worry so much about the
brass.  What you need to do though is soak all the brass parts in a solution
of 2 parts vinegar and 1 part hydrogen peroxide.  Soak them for just a few
minutes or until the brass turns a buttery yellow color.  This process
removes the surface lead on the brass.

As you probably know, brass is about 1/3 of the cost of stainless so it is
an attractive option for most homebrewers.  If you could afford stainless,
it is also a good option because it is much more durable and it would remove
any doubt in your mind that that off flavor you taste is due to the brass
and not because of the hundred other procedural parameters that affect the
taste a hundred times more.

Many a good beer have been made with brass fittings, so RDWHAHB.

Cheers,

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
[3554 furlongs, 3.18 Radians] Rennerian



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Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:37:26 -0500
From: Rolf Karlsson <bz4n8v at naeng.gm.com>
Subject: wort chiller thermodynamics

John: You will get basically the same heat transfer rates
whether you are running a cold liquid through copper tube in a
hot bath or vice versa, at least to begin with. However, think
about this: If you run the wort through the tubing in a cold
bath you will have to sanitize the INSIDE of the copper tubing,
as well as any pumping machinery you use to recirculate the
wort. Also, if you run this way, the cool bath will warm up at
the same rate as the wort cools, so you would need to replace
the cooling water to maintain its effectiveness. If you want to
go nuts, you can take that a step further and build a
counter-flow chiller, which is basically a tube within a tube.
At one end hot wort goes into one tube, and at the other end
cold water goes into the other tube. This maintains the highest
possible heat transfer rates along the length of the tubes.
Personally I would recommend running cold water through a single
tube immersed in the hot wort so you only have to clean the
outside of it; the digests from the last couple of weeks had a
discussion about doing that (oxides, vinegar solutions, etc.).

Rolf Karlsson
[44.2 miles, 9.3] Rennerian
- -- 
"If the thundercloud passes rain, so let it rain."
        -Bono, "MLK"


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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:34:49 -0600 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Split Rock Homebrew Competition - Final Notice

> The Annual Homebrew Competition at Split Rock Resorts will take place on
> November 17th at the Split Rock Resort at Lake Harmony in the Pennsylvania
> Poconos.  This annual competition will be coincident with the Great Brews
> of American Beer Classic Beer Festival.   Information about this
> competition can be found at the web site:
> http://www.splitrockresort.com/beerfest.html.   Beer, Mead and Cider will
> be judged.  The Homebrewers Competition is sanctioned by the American
> Homebrewers Association. The fee is $5.00 per entry and benefits the
> National Multiple Sclerosis Society.   Entrants and Judges should call
> 1-800-225-7625 x815 to have entry forms mailed or faxed to you.  
> Brewers, please enter your beers as this competition aids a very good
> cause, MS.  Judges, please register to judge and you can enjoy free
> attendance at the beer festival or the beer dinner on Saturday night.  
> David Housemanall Call 1-800-255-7625 x815 to have an Official Entry Form
> sent or faxed to you.
> 1-800-255-7625 x815 to have an Official Entry Form sent or faxed to you.
>  
> 


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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:52:08 -0600 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: CPBF Competition Beers

Dave Perry asks: "Also are counter-pressure filled bottles competition
legal?"

The answer is absolutely.  Unless maybe it's the Real Ale festival.  From
the competitions I've judged, and entered, I would say that 20% of the beers
in a given competition may be counter pressure bottle filled.  

Dave Houseman
SE PA



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Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:06:08 -0600
From: The Freemans <potsus at Bellsouth.net>
Subject: stainless versus brass

Brass has a small amount ot lead in it's formula.  This lead is there to
ease machining of parts.  If you are using brass fittings and valves,
this lead should be removed.

A solution of 1 part hydrogen peroxide (available from your local drug
store) and 2 parts vinegar (available from your local food store) can be
used to soak all brass parts and remove the surface lead.  This only
takes a few minutes.  Do not let the pieces soak over a long period of
time, but remove them when the brass gets to a "buttery" color.  Once
the solution turns blue throw it out.

There should be no off tastes resulting from the use of brass valves and
such if you use this process.

Hope this helps,

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
K P Brewery - home of "the perfesser'
Birmingham, AL




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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:38:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Magnan <magnan at jimmy.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: lager yeast

> From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
> 
> Brian wrote of lager yeast:
> >I believe ANY yeast, but especially lagers, should be pitched at
> >fermentation temperature, so that the growth phase can occur at those
> >temperatures. To do that, you will need a very large starter, or a starter
> >that has been acclimated to the colder temps through slow drops of around 4
> >deg F per day, and ideally both. 
> 
> I couldn't agree more with Brian, especially if you're doing a pilsner.
> Pitching of lager beers is best performed when wort temps are closest to
> their desired fermentation temps.  Typically I make a starter at room temp
> and let it chill over the next few days to within 5 degrees F of my

When I make lagers I cool the wort to room temp, pitch the yeast and
take it out to the 45F degree garage.  Assuming it takes at least a few
hours to cool to the ambient temp, what specifically will be happening
thats not "best" about this?  And would I, or the yeast rather, be better
off waiting a few hours to pitch?  Pitching ASAP is also a goal so there
are competing interests here.  Which should prevail and why?  

Rick Magnan
Wellesley, MA


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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:43:05 -0500 
From: "Kensler, Paul" <PKensler at cyberstar.com>
Subject: re: Stainless vs. Brass

"the ready-made gear I've seen has stainless parts so I'm wondering if brass
will affect the flavor of the brew."

Craig,
The simple answer is: no, brass won't affect the flavor of the beer.  I've
got an aluminum kettle and a stainless steel kettle and both of them use
various copper and stainless steel parts: false bottoms, manifolds, etc.
depending on whether I'm mashing or boiling in them.  But all of those parts
are connected by brass fittings - reducers, compression fittings, couplings,
ball valves, etc.  Even my plastic Gott mash tun has brass fittings in it.
None of it has contributed a noticeable flavor.

The reason why you don't see brass, aluminum or other soft metals in
commercial brewhouses is because they can't stand up to the heavy caustic
cleaners used by the professional breweries but stainless will.  They are
perfectly fine for home use - just be careful when cleaning them (don't soak
them in bleach, PBW, TSP or any other detergent - just use elbow grease to
get the crud off and soak in water if needed).

Some folks worry about the lead in brass, used in various amounts to help
machining.  John Palmer has oft-documented the procedure for soaking the
brass in vinegar and hydrogen peroxide to remove the surface lead and I do
this every once in a while after I buy new brass parts (I'm an eternal
tinkerer).  Search the hbd or check out his excellent online reference at
www.howtobrew.com <http://www.howtobrew.com>  for details and the correct
ratio to use (I can never remember so I wrote it down and saved it on the
computer at home).


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD  [412, 123 AR]



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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:06:23 -0500
From: "John Bonney" <john at ruthsx.com>
Subject: RE: Wort Chiller Efficiency

Dag Writes:
"I have been thinking about making one of those copper coil wort chillers
and
I was wondering would it be more efficient to run cold water through the
coil submerged in the wort or run the wort through the coil submerged in
cold water? "

Well, I'm not sure about the efficiency, but my feelings are if you're going
to go thru the trouble of passing the wort thru the coil, you might consider
making a counter-flow chiller.

The concern I have with passing the wort thru the coil is sanitization.
It's hard to tell if there's something funky stuck inside there somewhere.
With an immersion chiller you can visually inspect the surfaces touching the
wort, and to sanitize, just stick the thing in your wort 15 min prior to
flame-out.

I know, people use counter-flows all the time without problems.  In my mind
it just seems like one more thing to worry about.

Or another option might be to have two coils involved in your system.  One
coil submerged in the wort, and another coil submerged in a bucket of ice
water (water passes thru the ice water coil first).

I opted for just a plain old immersion chiller.  It was cheap, took all of
15 min. to build, and works great.  I can't remember how many feet of tubing
I used, but it seems like more than most have used.  The top most rung of my
chiller is about 4 inches from the top of my Sanke when submerged (rests on
top of a copper manifold).

Regards,

John






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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:49:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Dryw Blanchard <dryw9680 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Red Seal Ale Recipe

I recently had a friend of mine come over and fix my
serving refrigerator and lagering freezer for free.  I
really owe him, and he mentioned that he really likes
Red Seal Ale.  I have searched the archives and I
haven't been able to locate a recipe for this west
coast, red, pale ale.  I know that someone has to have
a good all-grain recipe for this.  Someone, anyone,
please help.  I owe this man!

Dryw Blanchard
Wingate, NC



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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:09:08 -0600 
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: lysozyme

David Houseman writes:

> Brian Lundeen mentions, quite casually it seemed, the use of 
> lysozyme in
> wort to retard the growth of spoilage bacteria.  A quick 
> search on Google
> opened my eyes to a naturally occurring enzyme I was totally 
> unaware of.
> But then that's probably not unusual anyway.  Brian, can you provide
> additional information on the protocols for using lysozyme?  What's a
> readily available source?  How much do you use?   Any affect on the
> desirable yeast?  On flavor, aroma or other beer qualities?

I will start by pasting in an email reply I sent to John Palmer, since it
has most of the info you request.

I use a brand made here in Canada called Inovapure, which the manufacturer
describes as:

a standardized preparation of lysozyme which is extracted from fresh chicken
egg white in government inspected facilities and refined in accordance with
cGMP requirements of the FDA. Acting as an anti-microbial agent, inovapure,
effectively ruptures certain gram positive bacteria cell walls.

You can read more about it at their web site
http://www.inovatech.ca/product.htm

Go down to the Inovapure section and click on View Wine Brochure.

I buy mine from a Canadian distributor in Vancouver called Bosa Grape and
Juice. I'm sure there are American distributors. Look at the winemaking
suppliers, as that is where it is primarily used in protecting the wine from
unwanted lactobacillus and pediococcus, or simply to control malolactic
fermentation.

Since lacto and ped also afflict brews, I figured it wouldn't hurt to
innoculate my worts, and there certainly haven't been any detrimental
effects on the beer character. One of my innoculated beers scored a 45 at a
recent competition. Since this product works better at higher pH levels, I
figure it will be even more effective in beer than it is in wine, enabling
me to use lower levels. Should it be standard practice? Don't know. I think
we need to get more brewers trying it and see what kind of results they get.
It does not seem to be a common practice and the manufacturer couldn't tell
me anything about its effectiveness or effects in beer. I don't think anyone
has seriously researched this application yet.

for total inhibition, which is 25 g/hl or 5 grams per 5 gallons. I use a
gram scale so I don't know what volume it takes to get 5 grams. I mix it up
in some water first, a painfully slow task since it immediately gloms up
into a sticky ball, and takes some stirring to deglom it. It has absolutely
no effect on yeast. As for organoleptic qualities, I notice nothing
detrimental, but I'm hardly BJCP qualified, nor do I make the same beer
twice. It would be interesting to hear from brewers who have a house style
down pat, as they would notice any changes caused by this enzyme. 

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg (or is that [829,314]?)



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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:01:15 -0500 
From: Dan Imperato <dimperato at telica.com>
Subject: Tetley's Ale Clone

I am going to try and replicate Tetley's for a friend of mine and need some
assistance in picking the correct yeast. Does anyone know which yeast is the
most likely candidate? Also, if anyone has a clone recipe, it would be
greatly appreciated if it was sent to me. Please respond to private email
(dimperato at telica.com or dimperato at mediaone.t). Thanks.

Dan 




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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:56:43 -0000 
From: "Crouch, Kevin E" <Crouch.Kevin at emeryworld.com>
Subject: RE:wort chiller efficiency

Hi John,  

In response to your question about wort chillers,  if you want to know the
most EFFICIENT method of cooling the wort, I believe it would be hard to
argue against the counter-flow wort chiller.  With this setup, a copper coil
is usually encased in a hose or PVC jacket that runs the length of the coil.
Cold water from a hose is run the opposite direction of the beer along the
coil (with the hot wort running through the copper itself).  I have known
folks who claim to be able to chill 10 gallons of wort in around 5 minutes
with store-bought units.  I used to use one that I made myself,...yeah you
know how that worked out.   I got very good at disaster-recovery with the
darn coil constantly clogging, not reaching an acceptable exit temp,
forgetting to sanitize etc.  

There are other drawbacks to simply putting the coil in a bucket of cold
water.  You have to keep adding ice to the water because it heats up and
instantly loses its cooling power.  The problems inherent with running beer
through a coil may outweigh the benefits for many of us.  Immersion chillers
(where the water runs through the coil that is dropped in the wort)are fast
enough,  trouble free, and allow you get the beer to the exact temp you want
before you open up the valves and flood your fermentors.  Their major
drawback is excess use of water.  Try using the hot water that comes out for
cleaning and then water plants with it when the outflow cools.  

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA


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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:39:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Aaron Stroud <detained_predicament at yahoo.com>
Subject: Rob Nelson & beer.about.com

Greetings from Seattle,

I am a relatively new homebrewer (~15 batches so far), and have been lurking
on this list for what has probably been a month or two now. I figured if
anyone on the internet would know the answer to my question, I would find
him here.


What happened to Rob Nelson and his site on About.com? His site has
disappeared, and his  at about.com email address has been canceled! If anyone
has contact info (email/website) for him, it would be appreciated.
Otherwise, I will have to ask my local brewshop owner (Nelson lives near
Seattle).


Hopefully Rob had his files backed up at home, so he'll be able to host his
site independently in the future.


Trying to hold off on the beer until after calculus class in an hour,

Aaron Robertsson of Stroud



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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:39:19 EST
From: Bentlybear at aol.com
Subject: From Laurie Fix

Hi everybody.  I am sure, you are suprised to see me here.  Usually, it is 
George who writes to all of you with his knowledge of past triumphs, and 
failures and years of his expertise in the making of homebrew.  .Giving his 
knowledge freely to all of you because he loves this craft, and loves you.   
He is my love, and to me he is, well, everything.  I am not sure if you 
heard, but he has been diagnosed with cancer.  It is a bad cancer.  Brian 
wrote that it was in remission, but it isn't, but pray it will be.  I was 
wondering if you could do something for me.  George and I need some prayers.  
A note of an email to George at Brwyfoam at aol.com telling him you are thinking 
of him would do a world of good and make him smile.  You can write me at 
Lauriefix at att.net.  Take care, and keep brewing.
love,
laurie fix.


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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:00:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Kerchefske <wadworth6 at yahoo.com>
Subject: pretzels / lye

Ok I'll bite,where do you get food grade lye? Or is
this like the Alar thing? By the way I tried the
recipe, great, only problem was that they stuck to the
parchment paper. Too wet, thought about using some
corn meal, or letting them dry on a rack rather than a
towel. There might be something in that paper too,
someone should check on that.



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