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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Cloudy Beer ("Craig Olson")
  Home roasting site/ oz craftbrewers new address (craftbrewer)
  Lead in Brass ("Gregor Zellmann")
  pitching into warm wort ...(was re: lager yeast)/lysozyme ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re: pretzels / lye (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Measuring Kettle Volume ("RJ")
  At least I CAN spell Beer. (Perez)
  Wort Chiller ("Tom Williams")
  Re: lager yeast ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Yeast Starters (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Gott Conversion ("Adam G. Fisher")
  Brass vs. Stainless (Richard Foote)
  Hammerhead Clone (Jeff)
  RE: Measuring Kettle Volume and other musings ("Dennis Lewis")
  Teeshirt selection voting... (Pat Babcock)


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Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:41:34 -0800
From: "Craig Olson" <craigo at nas.com>
Subject: Cloudy Beer

Today I ran out of homebrew (egad!) and bought a six of a good local
microbrew and was struck by it's clarity.  (LaConner Brewing Co. ESB, BTW -
great stuff)  Anyway - most all my beer is cloudy.  It tastes great so I've
never worried about it much but that crisp clear pint of LBC brew has got
me thinking.  I've read everything I can get my hands on about filtering,
clarifiers, finings & such I've not yet grokked what's needed to get clear
beer.  What's your experience and what have *you* done to get clear beer?

Craig Olson
Lummi Island, Washington

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Craig Olson - Progressive folk-rock music & tribal spirit grooves
http://www.CraigOlson.com  ~~  http://www.mp3.com/craigolson
"The same stream of life that runs through my veins runs through
the world and dances in rhythmic measure." - R. Tagore
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:29:17 +1100
From: craftbrewer at telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: Home roasting site/ oz craftbrewers new address

G'Day All
/
Well I have been stired from my semi-inactivity on this balmy 
afternoon, sucking on my rainforrest rauch to help out a fellow 
brewer. Yes I have been a contented pup, no more so with the 
new a large brew pub will open soon in the tropics 
(almost next door). With my help I am sure this one will be a 
huge success. Our succession from the rest of Australia is 
complete, so I can finish training the last of the taipans and 
water lizards to keep all those southerners and tourists out.
/
But it was asked
/
>>>>I have taken the plunge into all-grain, and would like
to roast some of that 50 lbs. sack of grain myself. 
Are there any good websites on doing this?  Can it be
done in a regular home oven?<<<<<<<
/
This ties in nicely with a notice I have to make about a new 
address for our website. For information on home roasting 
(not a bad article actually) as well as other articles, like the 
one that shows I have been practiced open fermentation for 
years (Phil you have to get arround) are available on our 
website.
/
Our website has changed address. Oz craftbrewers is now 
just Craftbrewer.
/
The new address is
www.craftbrewer.org
/
Shout
Graham Sanders
/
Oh
The downturn in the airline industry has had one advantage. 
The mouth from the south, Baroness Yates, will no longer be 
coming to the North any more. This is not good news, 
but GREAT news. He should realise that any man is the king 
of his own domain - Now the bugger will have to stay there 
and see if its actually true. As for us in the North, 
well, the celebrations haven't stopped.






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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:18:26 +0100
From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de>
Subject: Lead in Brass

hi  fellow brewers,

for about 50 batches now I use a modified 50 l keg as my brewing kettle.
Although it has a 3/4 inch ss-fitting welded in place for holding a spigot,
it was hard to find a 3/4 " spigot, while 1/2 " spigots were available. So I
used a "reduction piece" 3/4 " -> 1/2 " made from brass to  solve the
problem.

Now I heard of the lead in brass problem and wonder, if it still makes sense
to treat that brass piece with vinegar/hydrogen peroxide. I am afraid, that
all the worts have washed out the lead already and I and my friends have
swallowed it already. What do you think?

Gregor Zellmann
Berlin, Germany

[4247.6, 43.4] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:16:15 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: pitching into warm wort ...(was re: lager yeast)/lysozyme

Rick Magnan  writes

>> From: "Pannicke, Glen [...]
>> Brian wrote ...
>> >I believe ANY yeast, but especially lagers, should be pitched at
>> >fermentation temperature,
>>
>> I couldn't agree more with Brian, especially if you're doing a pilsner.
>
>When I make lagers I cool the wort to room temp, pitch the yeast and
>take it out to the 45F degree garage.  Assuming it takes at least a few
>hours to cool to the ambient temp, what specifically will be happening
>thats not "best" about this?

During the first few hours of fermentation yeast are developing almost all
of the unsaturated fatty acids(UFA) that will ever appear.  This is because
UFA synthesis requires oxygen and there is free oxygen only early in the
wort.   The UFAs have a very important role in the yeast membranes.  They
directly impact yeasts alcohol tolerance and temperature tolerance.  There
is a very strong relationship between lower fermentation  temperatures and
higher yeast UFA levels.

I've never seen a study that tests the full  premise, but I would expect
that yeast pitched into warm, once-aerated wort will be more sensitive to
cold-shock and less alcohol tolerant.

>Pitching ASAP is also a goal so there
>are competing interests here.  Which should prevail and why?

Pitch into cool (even too cool) wort for improved yeast performance, pitch
quickly for improved infection domination.
If your infections controls are very good, then pitching a few hours later
shouldn't be a problem.  If you can justify a CFC chiller, then you can have
cool wort immediately.

In the case of lager brewing we also have the problem with warm fermentation
producing esters and other out-of-style flavor components.


===

I have no problem with the use of lysozyme, but I have some doubts about
where to use it.  In my personal experience many, probably most, beer
infections are not bacterial, but fungal.  If you anticipate an infection of
any sort, then better sanitation procedures are called for.  If you already
have an infection it's probably too late.  I can see lysozyme as a nice
alternative to acid washing stored yeast, but I don't think I'd bother to
use it for regular prophyaxis.

==

I'll refrain from disturbing Mr.Fix with an email, but my sincere best
wishes to him and Laurie.

 -S






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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:41:21 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: pretzels / lye

"Bob Sutton" <Bob at homebrew.com>  expressed concern about using Drano 
"100% lye for simmering pretzels, and Paul Kerchefske 
<wadworth6 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Ok I'll bite,where do you get food grade lye? Or is
>this like the Alar thing? By the way I tried the
>recipe, great, only problem was that they stuck to the
>parchment paper. Too wet, thought about using some
>corn meal, or letting them dry on a rack rather than a
>towel. There might be something in that paper too,
>someone should check on that.

Good question about the lye.  The bakeries I know of just use Red 
Devil, or at least they did years ago when I last knew.  I suppose 
you'd never, ever get the Red Devil or Drano companies to to say you 
could use their lye internally in any way..  The lawyers wouldn't 
stand for it, even it there were no apparent problem.  I may look 
further into it.  The alternative is to use about 1/3 cup baking soda 
in a quart of water to simmer them in.

Not sure if there is such a thing as food grade lye.  Kind of an 
oxymoron.  Reagent grade would be overkill.

Regarding the wet pretzels sticking to the bakers parchment.  I like 
to drain the pretzels on a wet kitchen towel (non-terry cloth type) 
for a minute or two.  If you drain them on a dry towel, they stick to 
that.

The commercial bakers parchment I use is silicone treated.  I suppose 
the kind you buy in a kitchen store is too, but you might want to 
make sure.

Non-stick spray is a good idea, too.

Nobody's tried the old bee's wax technique?  Too bad.  I wanted to 
know how it worked.  I may have to try it myself.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:37:13 -0500
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Measuring Kettle Volume

"Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> wrote:

"How do you all measure your kettle volume?  With a sight glass?  I use a
"dip stick" calibrated to my brew pot.  A problem is that the volume of the
wort is a function of the temperature isn't it?  Isn't there about a 11%
increase in volume at boiling temperatures?  Often I get less finished wort
than I thought I measured it when in the kettle when I measure the cooled
wort in my fermenter.  So I recalibrated my dip stick by using near boiling
water at the time.  Seems better but still slightly off.  Any suggestions on
getting this right?"

David,

Not sure if you'll ever be able to hit it on the nose, as a great deal of
other things also come into play when thinking about the kettle displacement
of the wort...

For instance, the break materials and hops are going to add the
displacement, in the kettle and may actually "raise" the volume an inch or
two (even at rest).

RJ <aka Olde Phenomian>
43.50231 North by 71.65218 West

SE PA




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Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:41:33 -0500
From: Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: At least I CAN spell Beer.

Sorry about the spelling error.  Diacetyl not Diacytil.  I
hadn't had my first beer yet and was excitedly anticipating
the Florida Gator game, our beer club's party at the house
of the couple with the walk in cooler filled with
incredible beer and of course the Sunday afternoon Belgian
tasting and Mead contest judging.  Wow, what a weekend.
BTW do I have to apologize tomorrow for the run on
sentence?

Spell checked with only 4 errors this time ;^}

Dave Perez, Official Grammarian (Newly Appointed)
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL



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Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:54:45 -0500
From: "Tom Williams" <williams2353 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Wort Chiller

You probably got a ton of answers to this, but here's my $0.02 anyway....

You wrote:   "I have been thinking about making one of those copper coil 
wort chillers and I was wondering would it be more efficient to run cold 
water through the coil submerged in the wort or run the wort through the 
coil submerged in cold water?"

I'm not sure of the answer to your thermodynamic question, but I am positive 
that the thermal efficiency difference between water in the tubes and wort 
in the tubes is insignificant compared to the cleaning and sanitation 
concerns.  Design it to run water through the tubing and sanitizing is 
ridiculously easy - just let the coil sit in the kettle for the last 5-10 
minutes of the boil.

I made mine from 3/8" copper tubing from Home Depot.  I forget how many feet 
of tubing, but I made it by bending the tubing around a large (3lb.?) coffee 
can.  The "in" and "out" tubes form the handle, shaped sort of like a giant 
ladel, with the pair of in/out tubes bent at 90 deg. at the top for easy 
handling.  I wove a couple of lengths of #12 copper wire up and down the 
coils to stiffen them, and used a compression fitting to connect to a garden 
hose thread (in) and shoved a piece of flexible hose on the other (out).

With Georgia tap water temperatures and GENTLE back and forth agitation, I 
can cool 6 gal of boiling wort to under 90F in less than 10 minutes.  In 
Maine, you will probably do better than that.  Watch out for the water 
exiting the cooler when you first turn on the cooling water - it will be 
HOT!  The copper tubing will burn your hand for the first minute or so.  I 
brew on the back patio and water the plants with the outlet stream.

I don't know why any homebrewer bothers with a counterflow chiller.


Tom Williams
Dunwoody, Georgia
(577,183) Rennerian - (I surrender - this is [distance, azimuth])




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Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:40:32 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Re: lager yeast

Rick wrote:

>When I make lagers I cool the wort to room temp, pitch the yeast and
>take it out to the 45F degree garage.  Assuming it takes at least a few
>hours to cool to the ambient temp, what specifically will be happening
>thats not "best" about this?  And would I, or the yeast rather, be better
>off waiting a few hours to pitch?  Pitching ASAP is also a goal so there
>are competing interests here.  Which should prevail and why? 

Rick, you know this one has no best answer ;-)   It really depends on what
you are capable of doing.  If you have to wait a long period of time for
your wort to cool, you're sloppy with sanitization and you don't use a large
starter, then you're best pitching at room temp and chilling slowly.  The
yeast are gonna need that warmer temp to grow faster in order to out-compete
the spoilage bacteria which will funkinate your brew - elevated fruitiness
or not. 

funk'-i-nate (v) - to cause funkiness in a bad way; to spoil with strange
odor and taste.  Not to be confused with funktify - which is a good thang
;-)

Of course the converse is true, if you can chill to low temps quickly , have
good sanitization and a large starter you're  going to overcome the the wort
spoilers and avoid fruitiness in your beer.

I only really practice *all* elements of what I preach for Pilsners.  If I'm
doing a non-Pils style lager, I leave out the icebath pre-chiller and do as
you do, pitch at room temp and chill.  It's going to take a while for the
temps to settle out in the fridge.  One big thing is that the starter is
close to the temperature at which you pitch.  If you pitch at the temp you
brew, all the better.  Don't cold-shock or heat-shock your yeast.  You may
retard the growth rate by killing some or extending their acclimation
period.  It may mean the difference of days vs. hours in your lag time.  All
things considered, do my non-Pils lagers taste worse than my Pils?  No.
Inferior, maybe, but that only has to do with my personal style preferences
;-)

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts
and those who harbor them." - President G. W. Bush







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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:02:42 -0500 
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: Yeast Starters

Hello, all.

I recently acquired a magnetic stirrer for making my starters and
wanted to make some comments about it.

Here is the procedure I used:
  Take the agar slant that my yeast is stored in and fill it with wort
    (about 8-10 ml).
  Let it grow for 2 days, shaking as often as I can.
  Add this to ~200 ml in a 1000ml flask, dripping the last bit into
    a new slant to regrow the yeast for storage.
  Place the flask on stir plate and run for 3 days.
  Add to ~800ml in a 2000 ml flask and run for 3 days.
  The night before brew day put 2000ml flask in fridge.
  The morning of brew day decant the liquid, add ~1000 ml wort,
    mix with stir plate for a few minutes, then set it on the counter.

On Friday I brewed a 1.120 old ale, and the airlock (sorry Doc & Phil,
I still use them occasionally for primaries) was active within 4 hours
after pitching.

I used a total of about 2 liters of (canned) wort for the starter. I want
to point out that there never was visible indication of yeast growth
during this process, other than the visible sediment after removing
from fridge. In fact, I was a little concerned about this, and about
halfway thru Friday's brew session I looked at the starter and there
wasn't any apparent activity (no airlock - just a piece of foil on top).
So, I picked up the starter and swirled it a bit just to check on it,
and it foamed rather violently and overflowed a little.

I realize that my initial step up is higher than the usually suggested
max of 10x, but since I got such a quick start on my fermentation, I
think it worked well. I don't really think that the 10x rule of thumb
applies when using a stir plate. I was wondering if I might be able to
shorten the times between steps. I suspect that I can drop the first
stirring stage to 2 days, and the second one to 1 day.

Any comments?

- ------------------------------------------------------

By the way, I have withdrawn my Rennerian Calculator and put up
a link to Brian's. It seems there was an error in my bearing calculation
and I just decided to defer to Brian's calculator.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




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Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 12:15:23 -0500
From: "Adam G. Fisher" <adamgfisher at earthlink.net>
Subject: Gott Conversion

Hi all,

    I've done a lot of web searches and HBD searches but wanted to ask a
few more questions.  First i'm converting a 10 gal. Gott into a mash
tun.  The first question is materials.  Right now I have brass fittings
for all the basic peices ( Ball Valve, Nipple, Compression fitting, hose
barb).  I also have some Neoprene washer to help seal it all.  I lastly
some Zinc washers.  My first issue id with the Zinc Washer.  One of
these will be inside the tank.  Is Zinc safe for mash temperatures?
Also the Neoprene Rubber gasket.  I've read that neoprene is good to 250
degree but I've also read the neoprene isn't good for beer.

I have no problem starting over and returning the parts I have.  What
would you all do?  Materials, part numbers, etc.  Thanks for any help
you can give me.

Adam Fisher
Boston, MA.



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Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:22:12 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Brass vs. Stainless

Brewers,

Just to set the record straight...

C.D. Pritchard wrote recently that brass was an alloy of copper and tin.
It is actually an alloy of copper and zinc.  I believe copper and tin make
bronze.  Anyway, the fact that brass is made with zinc brings up an
interesting point: Could the zinc content of brass fittings have a
beneficial effect on yeast health due to the helpful benefits of zinc?
Does it get into the wort in any amount and is it in a form accessible to
the little critters?  Let more debate ensue.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA
Definitely South of Jeff Renner




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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:17:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff <duckinchicago at yahoo.com>
Subject: Hammerhead Clone

I used to live in Oregon and my favorite beer was and
still is McMenamins Hammerhead ale.  I believe its one
of the best examples of an APA out there.  Since I
started brewing a couple years ago (and moved away
from the Northwest :(, I've tried a couple stabs at
duplicating Hammerhead, but the one thing that I taste
when I'm back there, is the yeast strain. It seems to
be a "clean" strain, but its much less flocculant than
the "American" strains out there (WL, Wyeast).  It
gives the beer a very nice fruitiness that goes nicely
with the cascade overload.  I'm sure it must be a
propietary strain, but does anyone have any idea of
something commercially available that might be
similar?  I've often wondered if McMenamins small
batch approach to craft brewing has something to do
with the quality of their beers, and they seem to have
an amazing consistency for as many different places as
they brew.  Quite an interesting case study in brewing philosophy.



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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:16:41 -0500
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at dblewis.com>
Subject: RE: Measuring Kettle Volume and other musings

David Houseman asks....

> How do you all measure your kettle volume?  With a sight glass?  I use a
> "dip stick" calibrated to my brew pot.  A problem is that the volume of the

I calibrated my stick using a physician's scale in kilograms ( = liters). I set
the weight, then filled the kettle with water until it balanced. This method
eliminated built-up errors from either over or underfilling the 1 gallon milk
jug.

I took the Microbrewery Operations course at Siebel in Dec 95 at the (now
defunct?) Chicago Brewing Co. They had a 50 bbl kettle and a long oak dip stick
marked off in barrels up to 60 bbl, which was max kettle volume. Not sure how
they calibrated it....

> Isn't there about a 11% increase in volume at boiling temperatures?

I have a table that says boiling water takes up 5% more volume that at 60L. I
believe I got it from the HBD many (like 7) years ago on a topic of SG
correction factors. I used to use it to correct the hydrometer SG of very warm
wort (like 130F), until I got a refractometer and didn't have to chill much wort
to get a good reading.

> So I recalibrated my dip stick by using near boiling
> water at the time.  Seems better but still slightly off.  Any suggestions on
> getting this right?

Measurement of boiling wort is a very imprecise thing. My stick is wooden and
causes quite a bit of localized boiling when I put it in. Plus a good rolling
boil will have the surface of the wort moving pretty good, at least a few liters
in my case.

I take a kettle full gravity reading along with a near-boiling volume reading.
Then I figure out how much volume I need to evaporate to hit my desired gravity.
The estimated finish volume is really a close guess. I lose more volume to the
break and spent hops than to the 5% shrinkage from cooling.

I recently had a few brews where I was ending up with wort that had a much lower
SG than I thought it should have, based on the kettle full measurements. I
attributed it to evaporation of the hot sample and didn't think much of it.
Until.... I pulled out my immersion chiller with the water still on and
I had a pin-hole leak. Not too much, but enough to add about a gallon to the
brew in 30 minutes. That diluted my brew about 10%. Ugh.

What I'm really interested in is making a 12P ESB or a 16P porter, not exactly
10 gallons of whatever. I never measure the final cooled kettle volume with my
wooden stick. Even though it's been in and out of boiling wort, I just never
trust the cleanliness of the stick. I do measure what's gone into the fermenter
(a plastic cylin-cone from minibrew, calibrated the same way as the stick) and
what's left in the kettle, and it's usually pretty close to my predicted final
volume (+/- 5%).

Hop additions may need to be adjusted for small volume fluctuations, but there
are so many fudge-factors built into the utilization calcs, that it hardly seems
necessary.

Dennis Lewis
[175.6mi, 114.3] Rennerian (aka Warren, Ohio)
In wine there is wisdom. In beer there is strength.
In water there is bacteria. --German Proverb



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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:17:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Teeshirt selection voting...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

With the voting to end 11/7, there is a clear winner now. But
have you - Yes, YOU! - gotten over to http://hbd.org, selected
"teeshirt contest" from the menu, and placed your vote?! About
10% of the subscribed Digest recipients have voted to date - a
good turn out, by all accounts, but we can do better! Will your
vote support, widen, or close the gap? Only you know, and
today's your last chance!

VOTE!

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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---