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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Temperature Control in Oz (David Lamotte)
  Triticale for making beer? ("Bret Mayden")
  White Labs poster in BYO ("Greenly, Jeff")
  Cider or moonshine? ("Gene")
  RE: Gas Piping ("Dennis, Scott")
  Re: Turbinado Q's ("Larry Bristol")
  Re:  False bottom material ("Dennis Collins")
  Re: Speaking of the stoves (Jeff Renner)
  Sour is my outlook... (Pat Babcock)
  RE: Gas Piping ("R. Schaffer-Neitz")
  Perf'ed Plastic (mohrstrom)
  English Lessions ("Dan Listermann")
  Re: Cider sweetening ("Bill Frazier")
  Renner clone (Paul Mahoney)
  Cider Sweetening (Richard Foote)
  keg fridge (Brian Lundeen)
  Symbiosis (Brian Lundeen)
  expensive brew ("steve lane")
  Re: Yeast Starters ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re: Speaking of the stoves ("B.R. Rolya")


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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:21:25 +1100
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Temperature Control in Oz

Adam (a fellow Oz-CBD member) was repsonding to Lyle (a fellow Ozzie) about
controlling temperatures down under.

There is also a couple of articles on the Oz Craftbrewer web site
(http://www.craftbrewer.org).  One by Graham  Sanders shows how to use a
cheap timer to approximate temperature control.  There is also an orginal
design by Arnie Wierenga which allows you to build you own.

If these 2 articles are not suitable, perhaps you could ask your question
on the Oz CraftBrewer Digest (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CraftBrewing)

Best of luck,
David Lamotte
Newcastle, Australia
Where I don't know how to get to Jeff Renner .... I would prefer that he
finds me so that I could buy him a beer!


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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 04:54:37 +0000
From: "Bret Mayden" <brmayden at hotmail.com>
Subject: Triticale for making beer?

Mark Tumarkin wrote (Subject: re: husk or no husk, that's the question):

<SNIP> I got this info from a member of our brew clu; Dr. Bob "It
doesn't have enough
Hops" Bates. Dr. Bob is a member of the UF faculty, in the Ag
dept. doing
fermentation science. He's specializes in wine (which is a bitch
here in FL)
but has brewed using many of the above grains. He is most
enthusiastic about
triticale, saying that he's convinced it can make as good a beer
as you can
make with barley. <SNIP>


OK, I want to try it.  Where do I find triticale?

Bret A. Mayden
Oklahoma City OK
brmayden at hotmail.com





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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 00:13:55 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: White Labs poster in BYO

	I just got my copy of Brew Your Own today, and I want to say thank
you to the folks at BYO and White Labs for the absolutely gorgeous poster
that they put in this month's issue. I intend to matte it, frame it, and put
it on the wall of my brewery! If you haven't seen it, go get a copy and take
a look. The magazine's really good this month, too, at least as much as I've
been able to read between calls. Makes me glad I subscribed! (NAJASCYYY)

Jeff


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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 23:57:12 -0600
From: "Gene" <gcollins at geotec.net>
Subject: Cider or moonshine?

Jamie of PEI writes: "As it turns out, it is potent and dry.  No, that's not
it.  It's a genuine porch-crawler and is down right sour.  Is there any way
to sweeten it up?Can I salvage it just by adding sugar or will it just keep
fermenting?"

I laughed my ass off for twenty minutes before I was capable of writing
this! The mental image is hilarous. Anyway, I would suggest using a wine
sweetener such as Brew King's wine conditioner (yada, yada, yada) that
contains potassium sorbate (fermentation inhibitor) and sucrose (sugar). Use
it sparingly to bring the cider up to a drinkable level, say two ounces or
less per five gallon batch.  Good Luck!

Gene Collins
Broken Arrow, OK



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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 07:29:19 -0600
From: "Dennis, Scott" <scott.dennis at pioneer.com>
Subject: RE: Gas Piping

We just had a gas fire place installed, and they used a high grade flexible
tubing to connect the fire place to the gas line. You can come look at the
tubing/line if you want to get an idea what it looks like and what kind of
fixtures they used. Or, just go to the fire place store and pretend that you
are looking and ask what kind of systems they use.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Van Zante, Bill 
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 3:37 PM
To: Vernon, Mark; HBD (E-mail)
Cc: 'founders at iowabrewersunion.org'
Subject: RE: Gas Piping


Mark,

Copper and natural gas is a bad idea to use for long term situations like
building a house or plumbing a dryer.  Natural gas attacks the copper and
over time cause leaks. It's the sulfur agents they use to make natural gas
stink that causes the corrosion.

For your application you could probably get by with copper provided you
plumb in the appropriate shutoffs at the source and "drain" the system when
finished. That can be done by closing the feed valve and leaving the valve
to your burners open.

I've used high-pressure tubing for my burners and have had no problems.

Bill


- -----Original Message-----
From: Vernon, Mark 
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 3:22 PM
To: HBD (E-mail)
Cc: 'founders at iowabrewersunion.org'
Subject: Gas Piping


I am looking at upgrading my rims from one propane burner to 3. Around here
for natural gas piping they use black pipe - not very easy to work with for
a DIY'er. My question is can I hard pipe my brew stand with copper pipe - a
much easier product for me to work with.

Mark Vernon, MCSE, MCT
Sr. Network Engineer
Global Infrastructure
Pioneer, A DuPont Company
EMail:Mark.Vernon at Pioneer.com
Office:(515)270-4188
Cell: (515) 360-1729

I have simply tried to do what seemed best each day, as each day came.
   -- Abraham Lincoln


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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 07:55:49 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Turbinado Q's

In HBD #3788 Steve Bruns queries:

> I'm looking to up the gravity a bit in a Northern Brewer "Extra Pale
> Ale" kit (6# Gold US syrup - 1# DWC Caramel Pilsner specialty grains)
> and am thinking about using 1# of turbinado.  Any thoughts/ comments on
> either the amount or type of sugar?
> I've checked my 3 brewing books and all I've found about turbinado is in
> Kunath's "Fearless Brewing".  The adjunct and sugar profile chart says
> "Turbinado - Small amounts used in some pale ales and strong ales."

"Turbinado" refers to raw, unrefined sugar.  It is the same thing as
"treacle".  It still contains impurities that give it a certain amount
of interesting character.  Essentially, it contains molasses, or at
least, if these impurities were extracted, we would call the result
molasses.

Personally, I am not a fan of adding sugar simply to raise gravity.  I
would recommend using dry malt extract (DME) instead.  Adding sugar
will increase the amount of fermentables, resulting in a beer that is
higher in alcohol, but it does not (in general) add any flavor or body
to the end product.  Adding DME will increase flavor and body as well
as alcohol, and will produce a better beer than adding sugar.

This having been said, the interesting character of the impurities in
turbinado DO add some flavor to the end product.  There is at least one
very good use of turbinado sugar in brewing!  I have found it to be an
indispensable ingredient in making a beer similar to Theakston's Old
Peculier.  (See my recipe at
"http://www.doubleluck.com/things/brewery/peculier.html".)

> Using a Wyeast American ale #1056 smack pack - Will this be enough yeast
> or should I pitch  2 packs?

IMHO there is not enough yeast in those smack packs for pitching, even
if you pitched 4 or 5 of them!  But there is simple way to solve this
problem.  Smack the pack 24-48 hours before your brewing session.  Once
it poofs up (this is the "technical" term), dissolve some of that DME
in about a pint of water (make it about the same gravity as you
anticipate for your beer), boil it for a few minutes, put it in a
(sanitized) jar that you can fit with an airlock, cool it to pitching
temperature, and add the yeast.  VIOLA!  You just made a yeast starter
that will contain plenty of active yeast when you need it.  And having
mastered this technique, you should call yourself an advanced brewer! 
:-)

Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX (there are no coordinates for heaven)
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:00:15 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  False bottom material

Fermentos asks about false bottom material.

Don't forget your name on your next post.  Rennerian coordinates are
optional.

I too mash in a rectangular picnic cooler and have had really good success
using the tubular type slotted manifold.  I think the slotted manifolds work
better than the false bottoms (at least in rectangular coolers).  I don't
think it's a function of % open area, it's more a function of open area
geometry.  But for every vote for slotted manifolds, there's a vote for
false bottoms as well.  The slotted manifold will be cheaper to make.

My data point says:  With 10 gallon all-grain batches, mashing in a 50 qt
picnic cooler, with wide open recirculation with a pump (3/8" lines) for the
entire mash duration, a slotted manifold works flawlessly.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
[3554 furlongs, 3.18 Radians] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:54:18 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of the stoves

"Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com> wrote from Chicago:

>Have others had this problem?  What are your solutions?

Like I said, propane burners in the garage!  ;-)

Actually, some preventative medicine helps.  I used to lay a sheet of 
heavy duty aluminum foil across the stove top and down into the 
reflector pans under the elements (or burners).  This did a pretty 
good job of protecting the stove top and made cleanup of boilovers 
and spills easier.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:14:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Sour is my outlook...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to yout lager...

Jamie of PEI writes: "As it turns out, it is potent and dry.  
No, that's not it.  It's a genuine porch-crawler and is down
right sour.  Is there any way to sweeten it up?Can I salvage it
just by adding sugar or will it just keep fermenting?"

I usually sweeten my ciders with some natural fresh apple juice.
First, add Bill Pfeiffer's Blend to inhibit further
fermentation. (For those unaware of it, Bill Pfeiffer's Blend is
1/2 t Potassium sorbate and one Campden tablet per five gallons.
For those unaware of him, Bill Pfeiffer was a great brewer and a
great man. He left us May 2000.) Then, add unsweetened apple
juice to the cider, blend, sample. When to your liking, you're
done. SInce your cider is finished, it makes little difference
whether or not the apple juice you add contains preservatives,
but it is important that you LIKE the flavor of the juice. Also,
I use juice rather than fresh pressed "cider" from an orchard
because the juice is not cloudy, so neither will be your cider.

You may also need to add an acid blend (I use a wine acid
testing kit to determine what to do here - I bought it at my
local HBS, packaged by LD Carlson), but the above will help
nicely!

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:18:47 -0500
From: "R. Schaffer-Neitz" <rschaff at ptd.net>
Subject: RE: Gas Piping

For short runs around here (central PA), such as out of the back of a gas
fireplace, people use stainless flex hose (NOT the mesh stuff with the
rubber inside that you use to make takeup tubing for false bottoms).  I
would imagine that this would be very easy to work with and would not
present you with the potential corrosion problems described by Bill Van
Zante (though if you're using propane as you indicated not NG, copper may
not pose that kind of problem).  Anyway, I suggest you check with a place
that sells gas fireplaces and stoves and see what they use.

Bob Schaffer-Neitz




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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:15:03 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Perf'ed Plastic

"fermentos" asks:
> I am looking for the plastic perforated false bottom
> material.  I need a large sheet about 2' x 4'.

Two (actually three) sources leap to mind. US Plastics (www.usplastic.com)
and McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com)  Also, American Material Resources
(www.amrsales.com/mcmaster.htm ) claims to sell identical M-C items at a
discount..  Look for polypropylene perforated sheets.  You may have to buy
4x8 sheets, though.

US Plastics is a recommended source for brewing items from Gamma Seal
Buckets for grain storage, to Norprene tubing for your brew system.


Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:15:47 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: English Lessions

pub n. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of
incompetence by repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks.

Kryton

 Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com

Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!




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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:53:45 -0600
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Cider sweetening

Jamie- Let the cider clear.  If you can chill the cider (like a lagaring
beer) this will speed the process.  Rack off any sediment.   If the cider is
in a carboy you can shine a flashlight thru the cider to check clarity.  The
light beam will be invisable when the cider is totally clear.  If you can
see any trace of light let it sit longer, racking when you see a sediment.
When you are ready to bottle add table sugar until it's sweet enough to
taste.  Add 1.25grams per gallon potassium sorbate and 50ppm sulfur dioxide
(0.3364grams per gallon potassium metabisulfite).  You can use Campden
tablets in lieu of K meta but I prefer the straight chemical.  Bottle, cork
or cap and after several weeks to settle down it should be ready to drink.

Next time you make cider use a yeast that's overly sensitive to cold.  Stop
fermentation when the cider is still sweet to your liking.  Use near
freezing temperatures, multiple rackings and sulfite addition to halt the
yeast action.  Repeat above steps to finish.  It will retain more apple
flavor done this way.  Some might call this apple wine.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas






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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 07:12:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Mahoney <pmmaho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Renner clone

Brewers:
   I wanted to brew a beer for the Christmas
holidaysthat our Coors/Miller/BudLite friends would
drink when they visit our home.  I know that they will
probably not like my Porter or my Stout!  So I decided
to try Jeff Renner's McSorley's Irish Ale recipe; Jeff
usually publishes this recipe every Spring in the
HBD for St. Patrick's Day.  Brew day was 11/10.  It is
supposed to be a better irish Ale than Killian's. 
But being a homebrewer I could not resisit changing
the
recipe!
   Here it is:
5.5# Vienna
1# 2-row
 .5# Wheat
 .5# flaked barley
 .75#flaked maize
 .75# 120L crystal
 .5 oz Crystal pellets 7.4% 60 minutes
 .5 oz. Mt. Hood 4.6% plugs at 30 minutes
 .5 oz  Mt. Hood at 15 minutes
Wyeast Irish Ale yeast (third brew for this yeast, I
had saved it from the bottom of the secondary of a
previous batch).
   I anticipated 1.046 from ProMash (75%
efficiency); but again, I could not resist tweaking
this recipe, even during brewing!  So I added some (4
0z)Malto-Dextrin during the boil. It tasted thin, so
I thought it needed a little body.
  So now I have a very cloudy beer (haze from the
malto-dextrin?), a little too hoppy, and not reddish
in color.  Rather it is a dirty, light brown color. 
I had hoped that the 120L crystal would result in a
more reddish hue.
  I ended up with 1.049 SG/OG.  It is now 1.016, and
I
am ready to transfer to secondary for finishing. 
   I know that Jeff's recipe calls for EKG or
Fuggles,
but I also wanted a more 'American' Irish Ale; kind
of
a cross between an Irish Ale and a CAP or CACA
(using
German hops--Mt. Hood being an Americanized version
of
German hops).
   Did I tweak too much?  Any suggestions on what I
could do to get a more reddish color?  How can I
clear this beer?  (I know, do not use malto-dextrin!)
I
have never used gelatin before, but is that a good
option?. Will a long (2 week?), cool (it is around
62'F in my basement)secondary clear this beer?  
   I will have to force carbonate to get it ready in
time for Xmas parties in early December, so a long,
sugar-based carbonation will not work.
   Thanks!
 
 Paul Mahoney
 Roanoke, Va.
 Star City Brewers Guild
 
 



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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:54:42 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Cider Sweetening



Jamie writes regarding the sweetening of hard cider:

>Started with a high gravity (1.060) , ended with a new-to-me record low
>gravity (<0.090).

Not at all usual, in fact, it's expected.

>As it turns out, it is potent and dry.  No, that's not it.  It's a genuine 
>porch-crawler and is down right sour.  Is there any way to sweeten it up?

Again, to be expected, especially if it has undergone malo-lactic
fermentation.

You can sweeten by using wine conditioner, which is a combination of
potassium sorbate and sugar syrup.  The potassium sorbate is key in
preventing renewed fermentation.  Another method is to add potassium
sorbate yourself with a sweetener.  Add the amount per gallon as
recommended on the package.  I seem to remember it being 1/4 teasp. per
gallon but don't trust me.  

I use the latter method with frozen apple juice added right from the can as
a sweetener.  One can per 5 gallons produces an off-sweet flavor.  Two cans
produces a noticeable sweet result (to my tastes anyway).  Experiment with
it to your liking.  If you want to serve it draft style, keg and force
carbonate.

I've noticed, at least on one occasion, an off metallic taste when I've
served it on draught.  I think this was produced from the high acid content
reacting with the brass innards of my faucet.  I switched to a plastic
"cobra" faucet to counter this.

Hope this helps.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA













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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:41:38 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: keg fridge

I'll be setting up a keg fridge soon that will hold 5-6 kegs. My goal is to
be able to store these kegs at different carbonation levels appropriate to
the particular beer in each. My thoughts at this time are to use a manifold
which has valves for each gas outlet. That way I can pressurize, dispense,
repressurize to whatever levels I want for any particular keg by only
opening its valve and setting the tank regulator to the desired level. All
other valves would remain closed, thereby isolating the other kegs from
what's going on in the rest of the system. Normal state for storage would be
to have all valves closed, including the main tank valve. Is this going to
work, is this the best way to be achieving what I want?

For simplicity, the taps will be mounted on the door, since that seems like
the safest place to put holes in a fridge. However, I would prefer to have
my main gas line from the tank (which will be outside the fridge) coming
through the side. Is there anyway to tell where it is safe to drill through
the side of a fridge? 

Thanks
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:03:52 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Symbiosis

The posting about yeast starters has prompted me to share what I consider to
be a perfect symbiotic relationship that I have just formed.

I have a buddy who wants homebrew but isn't particularly interested in the
brewing process. As such, I've gotten him into the BrewHouse line, and he
thinks these are just the cat's pyjamas, if not the bee's knees.

He wants to make lagers from the American Lager kit, but he has no
facilities for making true lagers, so all he can do now is make a light ale
from the kit as it comes.

I have offered to ferment his kits for him, using my lager yeasts, then rack
it off into a water jug for him to take home and bottle. He's not going to
get the world's greatest lager, since I will pitch warm and ferment it
around 52-54F to get it done a little more quickly, and it won't have a
lagering period either. But it should still turn out more lager-like than
making it up with the supplied ale yeast, and he's not particularly picky
anyway. 

I walk away from this with a huge yeast population from a very neutral
source for pitching into my cold lager wort, which should greatly improve
the quality of my product. I view this as a win-win situation for both of
us. 

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:47:12 -0600
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa at hotmail.com>
Subject: expensive brew

I just brewed the most expensive 10 gallons of beer in my life.
Let's tally the bill
Hops: $4.00
Malt:  $ 18.00
Water:  $00.01
yeast:  $00.10 (only becuase i stepped up the starter)
trip to hosptital: $1,378.65

Total:  $1400.76

The fifth part of the brew involved a 7 gallon glass carboy full of 
sanatizer, my left foot, 22 stitches, a trip to the ER and gravity.  I guess 
add $25.00 for the carboy into above figures.

Warning:  don't set full carboy on washing machine and try to lift it up 
with wet hands to empty it while standing on concrete with no shoes on.

Stitches came out yesterday but this persistant limp from the entire top of 
my foot being black and blue and swollen is still with me.  I am seriously 
considering no longer using gravity as a method of emptying my carboys and 
going to a mag drive pump.

I must say the god were looking over me though, it didn't break my foot even 
though that was the first thing it hit as it shattered into a bazillion 
pieces.  And it was full of sanitizer and not brew (whew !!).

Any people still using carboys with out handles, save this in your inbox and 
remember, don't make the mistake that I made.  Should you make this same 
mistake, go to in box and let it be known that you had been duly warned.

PS  the beer is fantastic !!!!!!!!!



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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:55:24 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast Starters

Mike Lemons wrote of Yeast Starters:

>This idea of putting the starter in the fridge overnight before pitching
>sounds like a bad idea to me.  You are exposing the yeast to some pretty
>rapid temperature changes.  If getting those last stragglers to
>flocculate is the only justification for doing this, it doesn't seem
>worth the stress it causes.

Mike, I agree, I think there is a minor logical fault in this procedure.
The idea is that you drop the temp to induce flocculation and the
supernatant beer is poured off to leave you with a nice, thick yeast slurry.
Sounds good, but temp-shocking yeast isn't the best thing for them.
Depending on your fridge you may be anywhere from 35F - 45F.  Surely there's
enough of a drop at a rapid enough rate to kill a few cells.  Maybe 30F over
the course of 2-3 hours.  I'm sure that the yeast which haven't been killed
already will love the even quicker 30F jump back to ambient when you pitch
it the next day.  But so what?  You've got a gallon (4L) worth of starter.
There's enough to go around.  The yeast's metabolism at this point is most
probably pretty low.  They've depleted their food source, have been
temp-shocked twice now and I'm sure they'd just love to skip their lag time
when you dump 'em into the new wort.

I don't think so.  This is not to say that if you do this, you won't have
good beer.  Sure you will.  I've done it and my beer tasted great.  But I
believe that it comes at the expense of a larger starter with a little
longer lag time because you're dumping groggy yeast into the mix.  I prefer
to use half that amount of yeast (2L), which is at high krausen into my beer
(supernatant beer and all).  At high krausen (or close to it) they yeast are
at their metabolic peak.  I've noticed that there is a reduction in lag time
by a few hours, however I have not percieved any other significant gains in
any mother measures such as: total fermentation time, total attenuation,
attenuation rate, etc...  There may be, but I haven't measured it.

Now I know *SOMEBODY* might read this and ask "How can Glen say this?  I
chill my starter s and my beers turn out fine."  Just don't ask me for
numbers, stats, charts or graphs to support my hypothesis.  I don't have
any.  I don't have a hypothesis either.  I'm too busy brewing beer to
perform pseudo-scientific experiments in my basement brewery on yeast
metabolism which other people will tear apart anyway.  Yes, I've gone the
way of the Pivo and the Sanders who know what works for them and who know
good beer when they taste it.  I can truly say that I am worrying less,
relaxing more and drinking good homebrew!

I use the chill-to-flock method during step-ups because I am not concerned
over metabolism.  But my final step up is started at the temp at which I
intend to pitch, using a non-obtrusive wort which will not effect my overall
beer.  It is also timed to have the end of high krausen coincide with
pitching.  Timing is the biggest challenge here.

>From what I understand, if you
>introduce bacteria at the same time as the yeast and get into some kind
>of race condition, the yeast are going to lose.  The bacteria reproduce
>faster.  Even a small advantage, multiplied over several generations, 
>will cause the bacteria to overtake the yeast.

You sure do get into a race condition, but with good sanitation and proper
aseptic transfer techniques, the yeast population grossly outnumbers the
contaminant population and wins the race early on.

>The drawback of using stages is that each new stage provides new
>opportunities for contamination. Maybe a different method such as adding
>lysozyme to the starter would provide a greater degree of protection in
>a single stage.

I think it was Brian who said he uses lysozyme.  Sounds like a good
approach.  I'm sure it helps and it might most beneficial to do this during
the early step-up stages since the yeast:contiminant ratio has the potential
to be higher at this point.  I'd prefer to keep it out of my beer though.
The idea of extra additives doesn't sit well with me.  But that's me.

'Nuff said.  Happy brewing!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts
and those who harbor them." - President G. W. Bush





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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 18:07:36 -0500
From: "B.R. Rolya" <br at triagemusic.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of the stoves


Doug said:

>I have a 30 qrt. brew kettle that sits across two burners on my gas
>stove.  I have also found that it discolors the enamel area between the
>burners.  I started to scrub it off with a scouring pad when I realized
>I was scratching the enamel.  The solution was to get a can of spray on
>oven cleaner.  I follow the directions on the can and it works like a
>charm, for the most part.  A few spots have developed which I can't get
>off.
>
>Have others had this problem?  What are your solutions?


Can't help you with exisiting stains but here's a tip to avoid new ones:  I
cover my stove with aluminum foil before brewing, leaving a little space
around the gas units themselves.  No worries about stains or boil-overs -
just remove the foil when done.


 - BR Rolya
Malted Barley Appreciation Society
NYC
http://hbd.org/mbas/




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