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Contents:
  Drilling a fridge (Denis Bekaert)
  Re: Irish Stout kit & Carboys/carboy handles ("Ken Taborek")
  Re: Stupid brewer tricks-Burnt IPA (Jason Mobley)
  Re: The wee wee experiment (David Lamotte)
  re: triticale ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Carboy anxiety . . . ("Galloway")
  Re: The wee wee experiment (gsferg)
  RE: "Guiness Head" ("R. Schaffer-Neitz")
  Phil Yates (Roger & Roxy Whyman)
  Re: Stupid brewer tricks-Burnt IPA (Jeff Renner)
  Re:  Keg Fridge ("Dennis Collins")
  Re: Irish stout yeast, was =?utf-8?B?SXJpc2ggU291dCBZZWFzdA==?= (Jeff Renner)
  Regarding the Wee Wee question ("Kristen Chester")
  Chocolate flavor (pursley2)
  Yeast Starters ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  RE: Cider or Moonshine (Rick Olivo)
  Full vs. Partial Boils;  Amount of water for Steeping ("Tom Williams")
  re:Stupid brewer tricks-Burnt IPA (susan woodall)
  Teaching Pub ("Dan Listermann")
  Homebrew Kit ("Dana Johnson")


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Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:27:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Denis Bekaert <Denis-B at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Drilling a fridge

On the thread concerning the safest place to drill
holes in a refrigerator....the door is generally safe,
but the side walls MAY NOT BE SAFE TO DRILL.

We had to have a service call for a refrigerator in
our house a few months ago, and I asked the repair guy
about where it would be safe to drill and he stressed
that the side walls are often not a safe place to
drill, especially at the top in models with top
freezers.  I spoke to other repairmen following this
and they all said essentially the same thing.

The doors, except in those models with in-door
ice/water dispensers, are free from safety hazards. 
If you drill into a freon line, don't breathe in the
fumes and trash the refrigerator because repairing a
holed freon line is just about impossible.  Freon is
hazardous to your health when inhaled.

You may be able to remove the back covering and find a
safe place to drill for a gas line, but I'd avoid it
if possible.  I charge my kegs and remove the gas line
until the pressure in the keg gets too low for
satisfactory carbonation levels.  You can leave the
lines in place, but I don't like to since a leak can
empty a CO2 tank fairly quickly.

Having a bunch of my homebrew in kegs in a dedicated
refrigerator has got to be one of the finer things in
life...so go for it.

Denis in Beechgrove, Tennessee where moonshine is our
history but homebrewing is our passion




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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 00:43:01 -0500
From: "Ken Taborek" <ken.taborek at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Irish Stout kit & Carboys/carboy handles

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:34:02 -0800
> From: =?utf-8?B?Sm9obiBTaXNrYQ==?= <John.Siska at hellonetwork.com>
> Subject: =?utf-8?B?SXJpc2ggU291dCBZZWFzdA==?=
>
> Hi Just bought the "brewers best" Irish stout kit which comes with Muntons
> Dry Active brewing yeast. is there a better liquid yeast strain I should
> use? White labs or Brewtec? or does it matter?also is there an additive I
> can add to acheive a better "guiness" head on the stout?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> John Siska
> Homewood, IL

John,

That word you used, 'better', is quite subjective.  :)
There are a good many yeast cultures available to you.  But why not give a
try to the one that came in your kit?  You're likely to find that a .69c
packet of dry yeast is just as capable of making a good beer as a $4.35
liquid yeast smack pack or test tube of liquid yeast.

For that 'guiness' head, I achieve that with .5 to 1 lb of wheat DME.  It
might not be 'true to style' for some beers, but I'll challenge any beer
expert to detect such a small amount, and it does wonders for the heading
qualities of a beer.  I've seen a 'heading liquid' sold in my local home
brew store, but I've never used it, so I can not comment on it's
effectiveness or taste impact.  I'd rather add a bit of wheat malt, and let
that do the trick.

RE: Carboys & Carboy handles

Last week, I saw the bottled water van pulled up outside my company's
building, with dozens of plastic carboys sitting on top of one another, in a
milk crate sort of rectangular-cubical (if that's a word, but I think it
describes what I saw well enough) plastic container that let them be stacked
on their side from floor to ceiling of the van.
This would be, in my opinion, an excellent carboy container, since they are
designed to be just such.  They had hand holds worked into their design,
which would make carboy transport _much_ easier, with absolutely zero chance
of snapping off the neck.
I tried to buy a few off of the driver, with no luck.  I tried visiting 'The
Container Store', but they do not carry these containers.  I've hunted on
line, but I've yet to find them.  Any information the members of this forum
could provide would be appreciated, as I'm really interested in picking up a
few of these to hold my carboys.

Cheers,
Ken

Ken



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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:27:17 +0000
From: Jason Mobley <jmobley at satx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid brewer tricks-Burnt IPA

This may sound very simplistic, but try aging the beer.  The dry hopping will
cover up the taste but time will mellow the burnt flavour.  Give it 3 months in
a cold storage, say 40 -45 degrees F.  If that is not enough, go for 6 months.
Sounds too easy but it often works wonders.  Protz!

Later,

- --J

"The time has come, the Walrus said, to speak of many things: Of shoes, of
ships, of sealing wax, of cabbages and kings, and why the sea is boiling hot
and whether pigs have wings." --- Charles Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll)

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:18:32 -0800 (PST)
> From: Al Beers <beersal at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Stupid brewer tricks-Burnt IPA
>
> Greetings all, Last week I brewed up 10 gallons of IPA
> (extract w/grain) in a half barrel kettle. All went
> well, except for the scorched extract at the bottom of
> the kettle. Apparently the extract sank to the bottom
> rather quickly before dissolving and scorched. I
> transferred to secondary yesterday and tasted it.
> Tasted really good except for the "burnt toast" kind
> of flavor. Is there anything I might do to eliminate
> this flavor? I dry hopped with 2 ounces of Centennial.
> Would Irish Moss help? I'm at a loss.
> Thanks in advance, Al in Mount Clemens, MI
> [48.4, 21] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:50:53 +1100
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: The wee wee experiment

My good mate Phil (we are all good mates down here except for that loopy
guy up in Far North Queensland) writes of his recent experiment.

> But I am puzzled by a phenomena which I have observed.
> If I stand on the scales holding a keg with 15 litres of beer in it, 
> I weigh my weight plus 15 (or so) kilos.
> 
> After drinking the 15 litres I don't weigh anything like that. I 
> appreciate that a certain amount gets discharged onto the garden but 
> nothing like the 15 litres I consumed.

Ah, Phil, that is an easy one - your beer gut is obviously resting on the
top of the scales leading to your 'apparent' weight being much lighter than
your 'real' weight.  Now there is nothing wrong with having a bit of an
'awning over the toolshed', but you need to correct your measured weight by
dividing it by the density of alcohol.

> There must be some residual effect because each year I am going up in 
> weight by exactly my average beer consumption per night ie 15 kilos.
> 
> Can someone shed light on this oddity?

It is obvious how quickly times have changed for you.  I well remember when
you were a lithe athletic fellow.  Clearly the recent hard times have left
you with too much time on your hands - drinking !  I can imagine that there
are days when you don't even bother to dress, preferring to just shuffle
about your rambling mansion wearing nothing but your old, threadbare
dressingown.  A schooner in one hand and the butt end of a fag in the
other.

I can see no alternative to me coming down there this weekend to give you a
sound pep talk !

David


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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 07:30:28 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: triticale

The trouble with triticale (and I guess tribbles) is that it may be hard to
find. Here in Florida, it is grown and used as animal feed. So you might try
looking in your local feed store (for the tritciale, that is; though maybe
tribbles too?)

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL



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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:34:53 -0500
From: "Galloway" <galloway at gtcom.net>
Subject: Carboy anxiety . . .

Greetings to the Collective,

Don't fear the carboy; just contain the brute.

I have been a victim of one breakage. Sometime after the wound had healed ,
I was getting checked out by my dermatologist ( a must if you live in
Florida). He pointed at the scar and inquired "Gall bladder?" I replied
"Nope, carboy". But I digress. . .

I tried switching to kegs for all of my fermenting needs. The only problem
was that the beer took forever to clear up in the primary. So back to the
dreaded, potentially eviscerating carboys I went. I have never trusted them,
the orange handle, nor their bottom for that matter.

I have found that dairy crates of the metal variety make for a hardy "cage"
for carboys.
The key is to insure that the plastic bottom of the crate is in good shape.
I am planning on replacing mine with 3/4" plywood when the time comes. The
cases provide some lateral protection as they go up halfway on a 5 gallon
jug. This is important if you have more then one fermentation going under
the biscuit table in the kitchen ( mine has a 4 carboy capacity). I have an
empathy for the UBX guys as one carboy would inadvertently some in contact
w/ another with a dreaded "Ting". These crates prevent that and slide easily
across the floor as well.

I scrounged mine from the local convenience store. Check with the dairy guy
at the market. Homebrew makes for a wonderful bartering medium.

Regards,
Dave Galloway
Chattahoochee, FL
Coon Bottom Brewing
[805.2, 184] Rennerian

"Homebrew will get you through times of no money better then money will get
you through times of no homebrew"  Freddie Freak of the Fabulous Furry Freak
Brothers (sort of).



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:09:01 -0500
From: gsferg at clary.gwi.net
Subject: Re: The wee wee experiment


Phil Yates pondered thusly:

>Whilst I am a keen home brewer, I consider myself to be only a modest
>drinker. Rarely would I consume more than 15 litres of homebrew in one
>night. In fact, some nights I consume considerably less!

>But I am puzzled by a phenomena which I have observed.
>If I stand on the scales holding a keg with 15 litres of beer in it, I weigh
>my weight plus 15 (or so) kilos.


You are of course compensating for the weight of your keg?


>After drinking the 15 litres I don't weigh anything like that. I appreciate
>that a certain amount gets discharged onto the garden but nothing like the
>15 litres I consumed.

>I have proved this by wee weeing into spare beer glasses and never have
>fully filled 4 single litre glasses.


Very interesting. I too have pondered this phenomena but it never never dawned 
on me to pee in glasses. It may be that after consuming oh say, 10 liters of 
beer that you may *think* you are peeing in a glass when in fact you are 
"missing the mark" as they say. You might want to get some assistance- perhaps 
from Mrs. Yates. If she isn't game, find a Good Friend to help. As the saying 
goes, "A friend will help you move; a Good Friend will help you move a body". 
Presumably, a Good Friend would also help you pee in a glass.

Also, a friendly suggestion: depending on what you brew you might want to put 
those full glasses of pee out of reach. My personal philosophy is "Don't eat 
yellow snow, don't drink yellow beer" so I don't think I could make the 
mistake, but if yer a pilsner man, it might be hard to distinguish between a 
glass you filled from your keg and a glass you filled with er.. recycled beer. 
Presumably you'd discover your mistake pretty quickly (unless your beer really 
sucks in the first place) but hey! why take the chance of throwing off your 
experimental results!


>When I get on the scales I hardly weigh anything more than my usual weight.
>How can this be possible?


I have not found this to be the case but apparently urine mileage varies.


>There must be some residual effect because each year I am going up in weight
>by exactly my average beer consumption per night ie 15 kilos.


You better hope this trend reverses my friend. If you are gaining 15 kilos per 
year, after 5 years you'll be twice the man you are today and the problem just 
gets worse. The biggest problem as I see it is clearly as your size increases, 
so will your beer consumption. You may be looking at a significant investment 
in a higher-capacity brewery.


>Can someone shed light on this oddity?


We lose body liquid in many ways- only a small portion is through the 
production of urine. We also give it off through our skin pores as well as 
exhaling it. If you want to get better experimental results you should devise 
a means of recovering ALL the liquid your body excretes. You might try 
breathing through a tube and condensing your breath (a simple still) whilst 
sitting naked in a large plastic bag that is tightly sealed around your neck, 
to collect/condense the vapor given off through your skin pores. An added 
benefit of doing this is you can dispense with the pee-glasses! Then at the 
weigh it. I'm sure you'll still be short of 15 liters, but I'll bet you'll be 
damn close.

And oh yeah, I almost forgot- your condensed breath will no doubt contain a 
reasonable concentration of alcohol and should be recycled (drunk) immediately.

Good Luck,

George-

- -- 
George S. Fergusson <gsferg at clary.gwi.net>
Oracle DBA, Programmer, Humorist
Whitefield, Maine US [729.7, 79.6] Renerian
- --------------
I am a man, I can change, if I have to, I guess.





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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:11:19 -0500
From: "R. Schaffer-Neitz" <rschaff at ptd.net>
Subject: RE: "Guiness Head"

John Siska wrote:

>Hi Just bought the "brewers best" Irish stout kit which comes with Muntons
>Dry Active brewing yeast. is there a better liquid yeast strain I should
>use? White labs or Brewtec? or does it matter?also is there an additive I
>can add to acheive a better "guiness" head on the stout?

Just about anything you can get hold of other than dry yeast will be better.
Wyeast and White Labs both make a liquid Irish Ale yeast.  You
could also probably get away with most British Ale strains (I know the
Irish fought a revolution 90 years ago to get the British out of Ireland,
but I've always been a practicioner of Realpolitik ;-) ).

As far as getting a "Guiness" head on your stout, I'm afraid you're SOL
without some serious equipment.  That gorgeous, creamy head is made by:
1) carbonating with 75% nitrogen & 25% CO2;
2) dispensing from the keg at 25psi (an outrageously high pressure); and 3)
using a special tap that not only is designed to stand up to that kind of
pressure but pushes the beer through a series of convolutions on its trip
through the tap, whipping the beer into that beautiful, long-lasting froth.
I, personally have never brewed a stout for precisely that reason.  I'm
afraid of putting the time, effort, and money into brewing something
that will only make me sigh for what isn't there everytime I look at it.
But, I do know that others brew marvelous stouts even without the $300
worth of equipment needed to pour it in an "authentic" fashion.  Good
luck and let me know how it turns out.

Bob Schaffer-Neitz




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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 07:13:50 -0700
From: Roger & Roxy Whyman <rwhyman at mho.com>
Subject: Phil Yates

Phil,
You have way too much free time.
Roger Whyman
Parker, CO, USA



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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:47:05 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid brewer tricks-Burnt IPA

From: Al Beers <beersal at yahoo.com> laments from Mount Clemens, MI:

>Greetings all, Last week I brewed up 10 gallons of IPA
>(extract w/grain) in a half barrel kettle. All went
>well, except for the scorched extract at the bottom of
>the kettle. Apparently the extract sank to the bottom
>rather quickly before dissolving and scorched. I
>transferred to secondary yesterday and tasted it.
>Tasted really good except for the "burnt toast" kind
>of flavor. Is there anything I might do to eliminate
>this flavor?

What a shame, and less than a week after I warned of exactly this 
right here in HBD 3787:

"Not only that, but this might be a good time to repeat to newer
brewers to turn off the burner after you've brought your brewing
water to a boil and before you add your extract, especially liquid
extract.

"My first three or four beers (about 28 years ago or so) had a
scorched flavor and flakes of black bits floating in them.  I
couldn't figure out what this was until I realized that when I poured
the extract in the kettle, it settled down on the hot bottom where it
scorched.  Best to turn off the heat, let the pot cool a bit, stir in
the malt, and get it thoroughly dissolved before bringing back to a
boil."

And only 21 miles from 0,0 Rennerian!

Well, sadly, I have bad news for you.  It never goes away.  At least 
from my dim recollection, it may diminish, but it mostly stays there.

I suppose you could add a "tea" from steeped chocolate and black 
patent to try to cover it up and call it a porter or stout.

At least I'll bet you won't do it again, which is better than I did back then.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:50:33 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  Keg Fridge

Hello all.

Brian Lundeen asks about setting up a keg fridge.  I really have no opinion
on the manifold set up.  My fridge holds three kegs and the styles of beer
that I brew all end up being carbonated at about the same level (12 PSI), so
I use a valved manifold.

This post is only to offer the experience of converting my fridge.  I was
very excited when I got my three taps and began to install them into the
door of my used upright fridge.  I drilled a hole into the side for the gas
inlet, then drilled three holes in the door for the taps.  I was careful to
measure the three holes so that they were equally spaced and placed at an
ergonomic height from the floor.  I got done and stood back to admire my
work.  The drip tray (a must) was low enough so that my tallest glass could
still fit under the tap.  I was very proud of myself.  I hooked up one of
the taps to the keg I had ready so I could enjoy my new toy.  So I opened up
the upper freezer compartment to fetch a frosty glass and promptly blew beer
out the tap into the drip tray..........and then realized the tap handles
were above the parting line of the freezer and refrigerator door.  Opening
up the freezer door hits the tap handles and opens them.  After a few choice
words, I resigned myself to the fact that whenever the freezer door opens,
the refrigerator door needs to open as well.  The other thing I learned, is
that when the refrigerator door opens, all of the plumbing from the door to
the kegs moves with the door, which isn't a big deal, but is a bit of a pain
when shuffling empty kegs out with full ones hooked up.

In the end, I wished I had put the taps out the side of the fridge.  This
would have solved the problem of the refrigerator/freezer door issue, and
also would have made the plumbing from the kegs stationary which would
simplify things as well.  Those of you contemplating the conversion of an
upright fridge with an upper freezer compartment, think carefully before
firing up your drills.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
[3554 furlongs, 3.18 Radians] Apparent Rennerian
"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice."



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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:02:51 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Irish stout yeast, was =?utf-8?B?SXJpc2ggU291dCBZZWFzdA==?=

John Siska <John.Siska at hellonetwork.com> writes from Homewood, IL

>Subject: =?utf-8?B?SXJpc2ggU291dCBZZWFzdA==?=

That's what I thought, too, until I gave it more thought.

>Hi Just bought the "brewers best" Irish stout kit which comes with Muntons
>Dry Active brewing yeast. is there a better liquid yeast strain I should
>use? White labs or Brewtec? or does it matter?also is there an additive I
>can add to acheive a better "guiness" head on the stout?

Liquid yeast can make a big difference.  WhiteLabs and Wyeast Irish 
yeasts are ideal.  The new tubes from WhiteLabs are especially nice 
because there is truly a pitchable amount of yeast, although it never 
hurts to boost it a day or two ahead.  But I've found it to be 
unnecessary since I aerate heavily.

Some unasked-for additional advise - if the kit instructions tell you 
to use sugar, don't.  Use an equal amount of dry malt extract, or a 
bit more to make up for the lower fermentability of extract compared 
to sugar.  I'd avoid Laaglander or similar as it is too unfermentable.

Many kits are made to appeal to brewers who want minimum cost.  You 
can probably afford the better quality of all malt.  This is probably 
the best thing you can do for improved head, too.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:36:30 -0500
From: "Kristen Chester" <kristen at cambridge.com>
Subject: Regarding the Wee Wee question

In response to the "Wee Wee Experiment" performed by Phil Yates, I
have this response from a friend of mine who may someday be a doctor
if she ever gets around to filling out those pesky med-school applications.
It may shed some light on "where it all goes".

Cheers!

Kristen

* * *
Four main places your home brew is going:

  1.. The aforementioned wee wee.  Keep in mind that wee wee does not
have the same density as beer.  Which is to say, a liter of wee wee will
weight more (or possibly less) than a liter of home brew.  Either way,
density is probably not a significant contributor to the phenomenon in
question.  It is more worth mentioning as a scientific curiosity.
However, the majority of the home brew departs in the form of future
compost.  (And while we are on the subject, keep in mind that this
includes the compost in your colon, too.  There is a lot of water - or
home brew - weight and volume sent there).

  2.. Water vapor.  I use this term loosely to describe all sorts of
things -
components of sweat (which, by the way, you do more of when you
drink), water vapor exhaled from your lungs, components of the proteins
and oil that keeps your skin soft, etc.

  3.. Heat.  Keep in mind that you, as a human, are a very high-powered
engine (some of us more than others).  This means you have to burn lots
of stuff to keep you breathing, etc.  So, some components of the home
brew serve to keep you at a level somewhere above hibernation.  (Note
that this situation differs from the hibernation that results after 15
liters
of home brew.).

  4.. The aforementioned weight per year increase.  Everything that your
body cannot turn into heat, water vapor, or wee wee, it keeps.
Indefinitely.  Sometimes, infinitely.  The vast majority of the extra is in
the form of enlarged fat cells.  And FYI on this one, your body would
much rather turn sugar and alcohol (i.e. homebrew) into fat than turn
protein or fiber into fat.  This is because alcohol and sugar are much
easier to convert.   Hence the reason that alcohol is one of the big no-
no's in the average diet.  (And on a side note, homebrew actually weighs
slightly more than 1 kg per liter.  Pure water is exactly 1kg/liter.  The
extra "stuff" in homebrew makes it heavier.)

And for my final, non-scientific thought on why the mysterious
phenomenon occurs:  I know that after 15 liters of home brew, I would
be entirely incapable of reading a scale.  Or wee weeing into a glass for
that matter.  Perhaps the measurements have not been made with all the
accuracy required for true scientific evaluation?  ;-)

Nicole A. Bergeron



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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:19:42 -0500
From: pursley2 at mindspring.com
Subject: Chocolate flavor

My wife has discovered Rogue's Chocolate Stout. 
She wants me to try and clone it. 
I prefer my stout without the chocolate flavor. 
But I count myself lucky to have a wife who likes a good stout. 
So I think it a good idea to try and clone the Chocolate Stout for her. 

Rogue's Chocolate Stout definitely has a chocolate (cocoa) flavor. 
What is the best way to get the chocolate flavor? 
Is there a chocolate essence out there? 
Has anyone used actual chocolate candy? Dark? Unsweetened? 
How about cocoa? When do I add the chocolate to an all grain batch?
How much for a 5-gallon batch? 

Jeff Pursley 
Fellowship of Oklahoma Ale Makers 
Bixby, OK


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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:25:36 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Yeast Starters

Demonick wrote regarding Yeast Starters:

>>... Sounds good, but temp-shocking yeast isn't the best thing for them. 

>Hey, Glen.  I chill my starters and my beers turn out better than fine.
>They turn out great.  :-)

Damn.  I knew it, I knew it, I knew it.  (At least he a didn't ask for
charts & graphs ;-)

>The only statistic I have is that my lag times are never more than 4 hours,
>often just 2 hours.

This is a great lag time (where is the lag?!?).  I haven't been able to get
down that low unless the yeast are in a very active state or if I pitched
onto the yeast cake of a previous batch (barleywines excepted).  I think the
lag time (at best) was somewhere around 6-8 hours when I chilled the
starters.  Then again, I only know it's fermenting when the lock starts
bubbling.

>This is sounding more and more like a religous argument.  The basic
>assumption underlying all the discussion against fast step ups and 
>chilling yeast is the avoidance of stress.

There's no argument from me.  I'm a firm believer in doing what works best
for you.  I can't honestly say that one method made beers that tasted better
over the other.  For me I prefer to pitch less and not waste the beer from
the starter.

>First, I question the use of the word "stress".  That's a value judgment,
>yeast adapt to changing conditions.

Please note that I use the terms "heat-shock" and "cold-shock" which are
demonstrable physiological changes in the cell activity & metabolism.  From
a biological standpoint, the word "stress" is used to describe the result of
a force or condition applied to an organism or system which is beyond it's
acceptable tolerances.  This is not the psycological definition which
implies the mental or emotionally disruptive condition.  Yeast have no
brains.  But I know where you're comming from here.

>The REAL question is, "Is the
>adaptation you are forcing them to make detrimental to your beer?"  Maybe
>it makes BETTER beer.  How do we know that it doesn't?

Good point.  Since I have no data which says yea or nay, I stick to what is
easier for me.  I know that in general heat and cold shock CAN cause a
change.  These may be one or many of a plethora of pheomenon ranging from
things such as physical cell wall damage to repression/enhancement of
biological pathways.  It is also the mechanism by which yeast and other
single-celled organisms will adapt to their environment.  Why do the cells
floc when you chill them?  They're responding to an event which will
increase their chances of survival under adverse conditions.

Is it better or worse for my beer?  Dunno.  In general (again) it may be
detrimental.  Search the Net on "temperature shock".  There's a lot of info
out there.  But does it all apply to brewing yeast?  Again, dunno, I'd have
to study the different strains of yeast beyond the capabilities of my
basement brewery lab and generate those charts and graphs I hate so much to
know for sure.  I aint doing that.  My lab days are over.  The brewery lab
is strictly for yeast ranching and I'm going the way of the monk.  No more
experiments.  Only brewing enhancements.

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts
and those who harbor them." - President G. W. Bush




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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:35:48 -0600
From: Rick Olivo <strangebrewer at centurytel.net>
Subject: RE: Cider or Moonshine

Jamie of PEI writes: "As it turns out, it is potent and dry.  No, that's not
it.  It's a genuine porch-crawler and is down right sour.  Is there any way
to sweeten it up?Can I salvage it just by adding sugar or will it just keep
fermenting?"


This brings to mind something I have been thinking about for some time on
the "sweetner thread."

Has anyone ever tried using a consumer sweetener that is relatively new on
the scene. It is called "Splenda" Here is the information I have on it:

Sucralose: Also known by its trade name, Splenda, sucralose is 600 times
sweeter than sugar. It is made from sugar, chemically altered by the
removal of one hydrogen molecule and it's replacement with a chlorine
molecule. After reviewing more than 110 animal and human safety studies
conducted over 20 years, FDA approved it in 1998 as a tabletop sweetener
and for use in products such as baked goods, nonalcoholic beverages,
chewing gum, frozen dairy desserts, fruit juices, and gelatins. Earlier
this year, FDA amended its regulation to allow sucralose as a
general-purpose sweetener for all foods.

Sucralose cannot be digested, so it adds no calories to food. Because
sucralose is so much sweeter than sugar, it is bulked up with maltodextrin,
a starchy powder, so it will measure more like sugar. It has good shelf
life and doesn't degrade when exposed to heat. Numerous studies have shown
that sucralose does not affect blood glucose levels, making it an option
for diabetics.

If Sucralose cannot be digested, I wonder if it can be utilized by yeast; I
strongly doubt it. If not, it would be an ideal sweetener for applidcations
like sweetening mead, wine, etc. where you don't want additional
fermentation and don't want to add Campden tablets or orther yeast killers.
I use it for coffee and corn flakes at breakfast; as a diabetic I can tell
you it is a dead ringer for sugar; far superior to Asperatame (Nutrasweet)
or Sacharine (Sweet 'n' Low) or Acesulfame Potassium (Succra) as a general
purpose sweetener. I wonder about the small amount of maltodextrine; since
maltodextrine is basically nonfermentable, if it has any effect at all, it
should barely add a slight bit of "mouthfeel" but the amounts to be used
are so slight that I personally doubt they would have any effect at all.
(One packet allegedly= 1 tsp sugar in sweetening power, but to my taste
buds you can halve that.) I think there is a research project here for
anyone so inclined; I am not. Don't mess with meads or antything that would
need sweetening. I offer this thought as a debate and departure point for
brave explorers. Good luck and let the collective know what you turn up!


Rick Olivo aka The Strange Brewer
strangebrewer at centurytel.net
VITAE SINE CERVESIAE SUGAT!!!
(Life without Beer SUCKS!!!)
Check out the BrewRats at www.skotrat.com





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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:33:33 -0500
From: "Tom Williams" <williams2353 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Full vs. Partial Boils;  Amount of water for Steeping 

Neal Andreae started a thread about partial vs. full boils for extracts; 
many responded with mostly the same opinions.  Drew Avis agrees with the 
points cited by most people, but disagrees with partial boils being the 
source of "extract tang".  As an extract/specialty grain brewer, I feel 
compelled to offer my $0.02 worth:

For my own experience, I noticed an improvement when I went to full volume 
boils.  But before I can conclude that full vs. partial volume boils were 
the reason for the improvement, I must note that this change occurred during 
a period when I was learning many brewing techniques at a rapid rate, and 
probably it occurred at the same time as some other unrelated improvements.  
One change in particular that occurred at the same time and seems to also 
make a big difference was the acquisition of a Cajun Cooker.

I can't disagree with Drew that old extract may be the more likely source of 
extract tang.  I can say that since I stopped doing partial boils, I have 
not had any scorching or caramelization from the boil.  I would agree with 
Drew that good results can be achieved with partial boils by following the 
guidelines he proposes, however, in my experience it is easier to mitigate 
these problems using full boils.

The other question Neal raised (which has gotten less response) concerns the 
amount of water used for steeping grains.  Jeff Renner advised using 1-1.5 
qts water per pound of grain.  I would like to emphasize Jeff's advice.  
Over the course of 2-3 batches which had an astringent taste, I believe I 
discovered (with the help of the staff of Beer Necessities) that tannin 
extraction from specialty grains was the problem.  Neal, follow Jeff's 
advice and use less water for steeping (I use 1.25 qt/lb in a separate pot) 
and control the temperature carefully. I was amazed at the improvement in 
brewing the same recipe with only this change.

And as an aside, the best developmental advice I ever got was to brew the 
same recipe repeatedly in order to learn the impact of changes in brewing 
techniques.

Tom Williams
Dunwoody, Georgia




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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:53:11 -0800
From: susan woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com>
Subject: re:Stupid brewer tricks-Burnt IPA

you are lucky it turned out good!  i did the same thing years ago and it
was UNDRINKABLE!!  I think you be stuck with that flavor, nothing will
help



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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:00:23 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Teaching Pub

The original deal for putting a brewpub here at our store fell through.  It
degenerated into an attempted land grab.  Oh well, we move on!

I am contemplating the blending of a homebrew shop with a pub with a heavy
emphasis on learning about beer.  I sort of envision a place where you could
go to drink good beer and learn a thing or two at the same time.  For
example a dozen taps could be make from four worts using three different
yeasts.  The idea would be that the customer could taste, say, a pale ale
made with Whitelabs British, English and Burton yeasts.

There is more to this than just the concept.  It may help avoid a "change of
use" problem that can bring on demands for a lot of physical upgrades.  I am
looking for suggestions to further the concept.  To my knowlege, there is
nothing like this anywhere.

 Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com

Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!




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Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 03:32:30 
From: "Dana Johnson" <thecruizer at hotmail.com>
Subject: Homebrew Kit

Hi Everyone,

I bought a malt extract Christmas Ale kit from
www.morebeer.com and brewed it last weekend.

It is definitely nice to have the ingredients
pre-measure and the malt kits would be a nice gift
if you are wondering what to get for a would-be
homebrewer for the holidays.

No affiliation, just thought I'd give my 2 cents
worth.

Dana Johnson
Denver, CO






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