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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Bock/Doppelbock Recipe ("Gene")
  Canadabrew ("Daniel  Beaton")
  Drilling Chest Freezers ("Steven Parfitt")
  extinct beer and TH ("Steven Parfitt")
  CF Wort Chiller for the first time (Jeff)
  Turkey fryer usage (Mark Kempisty)
  RE: Bottle Cappers (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
  bottling for competitions ("David Craft")
  rootbeer (Ed Jones)
  bottling beer thats already carbonated ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  RE: Wort aeration ("Houseman, David L")
  Clogged Hop Back ("Jerry Sadowski")
  Re: bottling beer thats already carbonated (Demonick)
  cult classic Bell's ECCENTRIC ("Joseph Marsh")
  Re: bottling beer thats already carbonated (Matt)
  re: scales ("Steve Alexander")
  Turkey Fryers ("Ralph Davis")
  re: Scales (Dan.Stedman)
  re:Subject: Stout Aging Temp (susan woodall)
  Re: scales ("Larry Bristol")
  Re: Fermentap (Brian Dube)
  RE: Scales ("Dylan Schwilk")
  Re: grain measure (Pat Casey)
  Re:  Propane Exhaust ("Bruce Millington")
  Thomas Hardy Ale tasting (Dave Kerr)


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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:41:02 -0600
From: "Gene" <gcollins at geotec.net>
Subject: Bock/Doppelbock Recipe

I just got my 100 lbs. of Munich malt and I want to make a Bock or
Doppelbock. Does anyone have an outstanding recipe for a decoction mash?

Gene Collins
Broken Arrow, OK

"We must act today in order to preserve tomorrow. And let there be no
misunderstanding -- we are going to begin to act, beginning today."
- --Ronald Reagan



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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:35:00 -0400
From: "Daniel Beaton" <daniel.angela at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Canadabrew

Dopey me, I forgot to put the subscribe address in my last posting.

To subscribe to Canadabrew, just send an email too
canadabrew-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Thanks for your understanding...
Daniel
N.S.

When Life gives you lemons, throw em right back and wrap em around a brick




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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.298 / Virus Database: 161 - Release Date: 11/13/01



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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:29:03 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Drilling Chest Freezers

If you are trying to drill a chest freezer, open the lid and watch the walls 
as the freezer runs. You will see condensation where the evaporator coils 
are mounted to the inner wall. I needed to drill a couple of holes to mount 
my manifold, and used this technique to avoid the evaporator.

The condensor coil is a little trickier. I don't know of any way to find it 
other than feeling the surface of the outside for warm spots. Don't drill 
there!

Try to find a place where it is not warm on the outside, and you can see no 
frost from the evaporator on the inside.

When you drill, place a piece of copper tubing over the drill bit such that 
only 1/16" of the drill bit extends beyound the tubing. This will allow you 
to drill through the wall without overpenetrating. Hopefully without 
drilling past it and into the evaporator.

Once you have a pilot hole, reach in with a thin wire and poke around for 
tubing, etc. If it seems like a good spot, go to a  larger bit and enlarge 
the hole, again with a piece of copper tubing over the bit to prevent over 
penetration.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:36:16 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: extinct beer and TH

I'm trying to find an AG recipe for an extinct beer.

The beer is (or should I say was) Schlitz Dark. It is the beer that I first 
leaned to enjoy, and the one that I consider the start of my hobby (ok 
obsession). I last saw it around 1976. I beleive it was only available on 
tap, and to my knowlege was never available in bottles.

My understanding is that Thomas Hardy is now also extinct. This is indeed 
sad. I have one bottle left, and will save it for some very special 
occasion.

As far as what beer to hold back and age, I would personally expect anything 
over about 6% to store well, and I'm going to grab a couple more bottles of 
Old Foghorn to stash for a rainy day.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:45:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff <duckinchicago at yahoo.com>
Subject: CF Wort Chiller for the first time

Sometime about a month ago, I asked for suggestions on
where to buy a CF Wort Chiller and I ended up buying
one from St. Pats (NANAYYY)-partially because my
brewpot and false bottom are from there and I figured
for compatibility reasons it would be best to keep
them all one platform. So I finally had a chance to
use it on Saturday and figured I would share my
observations.  Using water from my garden hose
outside-the temp of my boiling wort ended up about 60
or less degrees judging by the strip on my carboy. 
Lower than I thought possible, but I guess water is
pretty cold up here in Chicagoland this time of year. 
But the most striking thing was how much cold break
came out of the wort. The next morning, it was
streaking down the side of the carboy and after a
little gentle swirling, it all settled and the beer is
very clear with a nice layer of yeast on top.  So pros
and cons-pros: a faster chill, I got to keep my lid on
my pot so no worries about besties and mucho cold
break-cons: a little more gear to sanitize and bring
up from the basement and a leaky water fitting that
dripped the whole time (will have to get a new one). 
Now if my OG hadn't ended up 20 points below what I
expected, I'd be in heaven. Gotta love technology!

Happily brewing,
Jeff 




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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:03:37 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Turkey fryer usage

All,

I use my turkey fryer just inside of the garage door.  This keeps
everything dry in case of those occasional rain showers.  There is a
slight slope in the garage floor towards the door for fume drainage.
Apparently this is required by building codes in my area.

On really cold days, I typically mash and sparge in the kitchen using
the stove for my heating.  Then move out to the garage.

- --
Take care,
Mark





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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:15:36 -0500 
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T)" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Bottle Cappers

On the subject of bench cappers:

I don't remember the brand name of mine, but I like the self-adjusting
(spring loaded) height feature on it. All I have to do is raise the handle
nearly vertical, slide it down to the bottle, then lower the handle & press
to cap the bottle. It makes it easy to have different size bottles all mixed
together. I imagine that having to remove a pin, adjust for height, and
replace the pin for each different height of bottle would be a pain.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:21:38 -0600
From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com>
Subject: bottling for competitions

Greetings,

Recently two members of our local club, one experienced and one novice,
entered  almost the same Pale Ale ( novice beer was bottle conditioned,
experienced was filled from a corney).  The novices beer won the category
and the experienced brewer got an average score.  We were thrilled for our
new brewer and we popped a few open to commiserate with our more experienced
brother..........

I entered two beers in the same contest ( all grain pilsner and a vienna)
that had been served at club events and given high marks.  Both showed signs
of oxydation at the contest. I put bottles in the freezer and fill them from
the corney to overflowing and then cap.  Somewhat messy, but if you are just
filling 6 bottles it is not a problem.  Is this procedure leading to
oxydation or contamination?

At the AHA last spring I got high marks on a bitter in the region, bottle
conditioned.  When I sent more in to the Nationals, I had to fill them from
a corney and the beer dropped from the mid 40's to the mid 20's.  Again
spoilage or oxydation?  I realize the score should have dropped some because
of better judging and stiffer competition.

Where am I going with this?

 Is my crude method of filling leading to oxydation or contamination?  Does
bottled conditioned beer store better?  If filling from a corney is it
possible or desireable to pasteurize the beer (set it in a pan of 160 degree
water for a period of time)? Anchor does this to their products.

If I fill from a corney, work more diligently on sanitation, and add one
primetab would that help?

What about making a slightly larger batch and bottling a small amount for
competitions ect. and kegging the rest?

Your thoughts as I prepare for spring brewing.

David B. Craft
Greensboro, NC

Battleground Brewers



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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:27:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at sdl.psych.wright.edu>
Subject: rootbeer

I've been asked to make some rootbeer for some non-drinking friends and I'd
like to oblige them. Rather than simply using some extract and sugar, I'd
like to 'do it right', whatever that means. If you have a favorite rootbeer
brew, please send it my way. Thanks!

- -- 
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am 
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:36:45 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: bottling beer thats already carbonated

ben yep ben wote:

>If this is the case would it be possible to put your entire 
>brew in a carboy, prime it, and then seal it properly so that the 
>carbonation occured, and then bottle the crystal clear beer while it is 
>already fizzy?.

I don't think C02 concentration is the determining factor in flocculation,
but that's neither here nor there.  If you want to carbonate & bottle, go
ahead.  It can be done - just don't use a glass carboy to prime your beer.
They won't handle the pressure and will break.  Broken carboys are not fun.
I can attest to that with 3 gallons on iodophor on the brewery floor and a
nasty cut on my finger.  Wet hands, slippery glass, no handle... bump,
crash, splash... explitive!  Oh look... blood!  1 down - 3 more to go!  Tip:
Wet/Dry shop vacs cannot be beaten for picking up the former contents as
well as all those little glass shards...

Well at least I now have an excuse to buy more stainless!

At the least you need 3 things: a corny keg, fridge and a filling device.
Oh... primed beer would help.  prime it, allow to carbonate, chill to close
to freezing and SLOWLY fill your bottles.  Then cap.  Search the archives
for more detailed info on bottling carbonated beer.

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts
and those who harbor them." - President G. W. Bush






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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:08:43 -0600 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Wort aeration

Marc Tiar wondered about drilling a series of little holes in the narrowest
part of the funnel to help aerate his wort.  If done properly you will suck
air into the holes, aerating the wort as it passes by.  However, what you
are aerating with is the air in the room, with all the organisms that happen
to be floating in it.  IHMO, you don't really want that.  There is some in
the carboy so shaking introduces those, but I try to limit as much as
possible the exposure to air.  If you use an aquarium pump, then a .1u to
 .3u filter is needed so that you're introducing "clean" air.  A source of O2
is the purest form of introducing oxygen.  Remember it's not desirable to
aerate all styles.  For those that you want lots of fruity esters, then
pitch the usual amount of yeast and aerate well.  For those styles where
fruity esters are not desirable, such as lagers, Scottish Ales, etc., then
don't aerate but pitch much more yeast so that the yeast growth phase is
minimized.

Dave Houseman
SE PA




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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:18:07 -0600
From: "Jerry Sadowski" <jsadow1 at msn.com>
Subject: Clogged Hop Back

I use a perfed SS false bottom on my boil kettle and still get an occasional 
hop leaf coming thru.  One time it was not perfectly seated on the bottom of 
the keg and really clogged.  Rather than try to sterilize my whole arm, I 
sent a blast of CO2 up the outlet hose going to the carboys.  This dislogged 
the clog.  Had to do it a few times but it worked.  Oxygen from an aerator 
setup would work too.

Jerry S.



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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:35:31 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: bottling beer thats already carbonated

From: "ben yep ben" <dundalinger at hotmail.com>
> ... would it be possible to put your entire 
> brew in a carboy, prime it, and then seal it properly so that the 
> carbonation occured, and then bottle the crystal clear beer while it is 
> already fizzy?.

The structural strength of carboys is compressive.  Pressuring one to 3
atmospheres will risk a HUGE bottle bomb.  A 5 gallon carboy is a cylinder
15" high by 10" diameter for an area of 471 + 157 = 628 square inches. 3
volumes of CO2 is 3 atmospheres or 44 psi, for a total pressure on the
inside of the carboy of 27,695 pounds.  That's almost 14 TONS!  

Do NOT pressurize a glass carboy.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:37:16 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: cult classic Bell's ECCENTRIC

I had a chance to sample the 1999 and the 2000 vintages of Bell's Eccentric 
recently. The 99 was very er interesting. The 2000 needs another year. I'm 
going to at least try to get up there for Eccentric day. After all if you 
get yourself a decent christmas present who will?
Joe



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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:40:31 -0500
From: Matt <shwalker at geocities.com>
Subject: Re: bottling beer thats already carbonated

         Well, if you are using natural carbonation (ie: adding sugar) the 
sediment comes from the yeast starting a second fermentation. There's a 
small amount of oxygen introduced in filling the bottles, which allows for 
a smallish reproduction phase, thus there is now more yeast and some 
settles at the end. Even without reproduction unless you secondary for many 
weeks (6-8?) there is still a fair amount of yeast in solution which will 
eventually settle (and your beer won't sugar-carbonate without them!). I do 
not think that CO2 bonding is a significant factor, but i could be wrong.

         At any rate, there is a mechanism for bottling carbonated beer, 
but it is a bit more complicated than you describe. If you were to try to 
fill bottles with carbonated beer the same way you bottle non carbonated 
beer it would foam up. This makes bottling tricky and causes the beer to 
loose some of its carbonation.

         I also think it is inadvisable to carbonate beer in a carboy (a 
fragile container) most people who bottle beer pre-carbonated carbonate in 
kegs first. Bottles are fragile too, but if they explode (which does happen 
if things go awry) it's a smaller mess, and bottles are cheaper than carboys.

         Thus you have a contraption called a "Counter Pressure Bottle 
Filler". This allows you to transfer beer from a keg to a bottle under 
pressure from a CO2 tank. The difference in pressure between the bottle and 
the keg is relatively small, preventing foaming, but just enough to cause 
liquid flow.

as an example morebeer.com's catalog has one:

http://www.morebeer.com/detail.php3?pid=KEG800

(no affiliation, YYY, and most other homebrew shops/websites sell these as 
well)


ben yep ben wrote:

>Beer in bottles gets crystal clear with the sediment stuck pretty hard to
>the bottome of the bottle right???? Is this because the Carbon in the carbon
>dioxide bonds to the colloidal sized particles and causes them to
>floculate?.. If this is the case would it be possible to put your entire
>brew in a carboy, prime it, and then seal it properly so that the
>carbonation occured, and then bottle the crystal clear beer while it is
>already fizzy?.



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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:17:40 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: re: scales

Patrick Finerty Jr. wrote:

>I'm curious what people use to weigh the grain for brewing

Terraillon kitchen electronic scale.  Mine measures 0-2.1kg in metric or US
units and has a tare function.  2gm resolution for small masses and 5gm at
the high end,  Was only $30 and is accurate.  Unfortunately these boneheads
discontinued  this model in the US.  It and several other nicely priced
models up to 11kg max are available in the UK & Ireland
http://www.terraillon.com/UK_IRL/kitchen.htm .

 -S







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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:24:01 -0500
From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com>
Subject: Turkey Fryers

Costco had an all stainless steel 32 qt. turkey fryer for $79.95. Even the
burner unit is stainless--nice.  I believe Sam's Club has the same
thing...just be careful it actually has a Stainless steel kettle--as many
have an aluminum one.  I  found about 8 different brands of aluminum units
at my local Walmart.  For those of you not near a Costco or Sam's, the same
brand of unit ("Infinity Glow") is going for around $100 now (cheaper after
Xmas???) via  eBay.com.

I'd like to ask Santa for one myself...

Ralph W. Davis
[6699, 91.9] Rennerian

"Beer is living proof that God loves us
and wants us to be happy."   -Benjamin Franklin




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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:44:03 -0600
From: Dan.Stedman at PILLSBURY.COM
Subject: re: Scales



Patrick asked about scales for brewing:

Well, I just got a MyWeigh 6001 scale off of eBay from Old Will Knott (who is a
kick!) for around $45. It weighs up to 13 pounds and has more then enough
accuracy for weighing out small stuff like hops or salts (it measures down to
full grams). I HIGHLY recommend this scale for hops, salts, and specialty grains
(or all of your grains for 5 gallon all-grainers!). It doesn't look like he
sells this scale anymore on eBay, so you might have to look elsewhere for it.
Since I do 10 gallon batches I often have to weigh out over 20 lbs of base malt,
so for that chore I have a 50 lb digital fishing scale that I use to weigh out
my big bucket of grain.

Hope this helps!
Dan in Minnetonka





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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:56:02 -0800
From: susan woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com>
Subject: re:Subject: Stout Aging Temp

the garage would be more ideal!


I've had Sierra Neveda Stout clone bottled and sitting at room temp for
=
6 days now carbonating. I'm going to move the cases to a cooler spot to
=
age for a while. What would be an "ideal" temperature. My basement is on
=
64 degrees but my garage is 50 degrees.






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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 13:12:01 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: scales

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:11:58 -0500, Patrick Finerty Jr. asked:

> I'm curious what people use to weigh the grain for brewing. I have
> been using a bathroom scale but it's really not that accurate. There
> seem to be a couple of options on ebay for heavier-duty postal scales
> that are brand new and will measure either 13# or 40# max. These are
> priced around $40 to $80 (USD) depending on the max weight they can
> take.

> I'd appreciate any feedback or suggestions you might have.

I ended up buying a good used scale (equivalent to model B-20 below),
but before that opportunity came along, I was extremely close to
clicking the "Buy" button for a "Best Weight" top loading spring scale.

     http://www.scalesgalore.com/pbestwt.htm

As usual, I am not affiliated with either the manufacturer or the
retailer (sorry I have not memorized all the YADA/NADA codes).  Model
B-20 (20# capacity; 1 oz increments) is $94.95; model B-40 (40#
capacity; 2 oz increments) is $99.95.  They are, at least, worthy of
consideration.




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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 13:15:52 -0600
From: Brian Dube <bdube at gotgoat.com>
Subject: Re: Fermentap

I won't be buying that Fermentap like I thought I would. Thanks to those 
who replied for saving me the hassle, and the money.

Off topic:
The request for Fermentap comments was my first post here but I've been 
following the HBD daily for a few months through my local archive of 
various homebrew mailing lists. I found the HBD to be the best resource in 
my archive, so good in fact that I went through the trouble of removing 
every message from all the other homebrew lists I was archiving, turning my 
archive into a pure HBD mirror. I realize this is silly because the digest 
is already archived, but I get a kick out of having a local copy. Thanks 
everyone for giving me something interesting to read every day. Na prost 
aufs Wohl des HBD.

Brian

- --
Brian Dube
Kirksville, Missouri



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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:02:00 -0800
From: "Dylan Schwilk" <schwilk at leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: RE: Scales

For me, electronic balances were too costly and spring-based kitchen scales
were the wrong range and too inaccurate.

I recently started all grain brewing and decided to make grain and hops
scales to save some money.  It was cheap, easy and the scales are accurate
for _weighing out_ material (1-2% accuracy).  Because of the way I designed
them (no sliding weights) they are limited to preset resolutions (1/2 lb for
the grain scale, 1/8 oz for the hops one).  I gave up being able to weigh
arbitrary amounts.

Both scales used the same idea, although the grain one is hanging and I
built a stand for the small hops one.  Basic idea was:

1) a lever on a fulcrum with one short arm which supports a hanging bucket
for the material to be weighed and one long arm with places for the balance
weights.

2) balance weights and marked places to hang them on the long arm. (s-hooks
for hanging weights in the case of the grain scale, ground indents in a
piece of aluminum bar to hold a washer in the case of the hops scale).

3) A place on the end of the long arm to add and subtract weight so that the
empty bucket can be tared.

For the grain scale I used a four-foot long piece of oak hardwood flooring
material (1/4" x 2") I had and hung it from an s-hook about 4 inches from
one end.  The grain bucket hangs from a hook on the short end.  I used big
bolts that weigh 0.82 lb each for the balance weights -- the balance weights
don't have to be nice fractions of your desired weight range, just do the
math and adjust the placements accordingly. If x is the distance from the
fulcrum to the weight bucket, each balance weight is w and the desired
weight resolution is r, then the distance between balance weight placements
is xr/w.  You do need some means to weigh the balance weights accurately (I
used an electronic lab balance).  My grain scale goes out to 5 lbs in 1/2 lb
increments -- but I can use multiple balance weights to go up to 15 lbs.  I
use a 5 gal plastic bucket to hold the grain.

For the hops scale I used a 18 inch long piece of aluminum bar.  The balance
weight is a washer that slides over the bar and sits in properly spaced
indents I ground on a bench grinder.

bad ascii art may or may not help:

     S       weights hung on colons (:) below
 ====|====:====:====:====:=====o  <- bolt where I add washers to tare
 ^
[ ]
hang bucket here



Dylan Schwilk
East Palo Alto, CA
www.schwilk.org



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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:04:07 +1100
From: Pat Casey <patcasey at iprimus.com.au>
Subject: Re: grain measure

I find it's easier and quicker to measure grain by volume, 1 litre of
loosely filled barley malt is about 600g.

Pat



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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 20:54:22 -0500
From: "Bruce Millington" <bmillington2 at home.com>
Subject: Re:  Propane Exhaust

Rama Roberts asks about problems with ventilation using propane cookers
indoors.  I have been brewing with a propane cooker in my garage for the
last year and a half.  In summer, I usually open the side window, overhead
door and back man-door.  In winter, I only open the back man door.  I never
have had any problems, but I do also have a cathedral ceiling in the garage
which helps immensely with heat dispersion and ventilation.

Bruce Millington



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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:59:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Kerr <dave_kerr2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Thomas Hardy Ale tasting

Danny B asked about aging TH Ale - an old article from
the Malt Advocate points out the variability of the
vintages, and the risks attendant with extending the
aging past 5 or so years:

http://www.realbeer.com/maltadvocate/W94/W94HARDY.html

Dave Kerr
Needham, MA, where my cellar is getting way too warm
for my first ever batch of sake!



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---