---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Re: New Temperture Controler Chip. (Dion Hollenbeck)
  brewing techniques and Stephen Mallery (Rick Wood)
  Re: rice solids substitute (John Schnupp)
  using yeast from secondary? (leavitdg)
  Re: Acid levels of mead ("Dan McFeeley")
  robotic pub (russ)
  Re: Easymashers & MCAB ("Joel Plutchak")
  Re: Jeff's berry beer (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Alt Beer Hopping (Jeff Renner)
  splitting a 5 gallon batch ("Ronnie Anderson")
  CARBOY Shamrock Open - March 16, 2002 ("Mike Dixon")
  Re: gelatin, etc. (Jeff Renner)
  Re: The Jethro Gump Report (Jeff Renner)
  Easy Masher  in Boil Kettle ("cwaters")
  When to start All-Grain ("Larry Bristol")
  Re: FWH/clarification ("Steve Alexander")
  RE: EasyMasher in the kettle and Alt hopping (Paul Shick)
  Acid in Mead (AJ)
  fanciful analogy language (Pat Babcock)
  RE When to start All-Grain / Beer vs Soup (Don Lake)
  Re: HERMS/fermentors ("Mike Pensinger")
  Grain Mill Review Article in Zymurgy (Gregg Ferlin)
  EZ masher ("Rich Medina")
  Shiner Bock Recipe (?) (Darrell.Leavitt)
  Re: Copper copper ("Angie and Reif Hammond")


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 05 Feb 2002 20:25:43 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: New Temperture Controler Chip.


Pete> The topic of temperature control comes up frequently in this
Pete> forum.  I just got a notice that Atmel has a new triac driver
Pete> chip, a T2117.  The notice is at:
Pete> 
Pete> http://mailinglist.chipcenter.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=eFwa0Co4RK0Bbs0BWIs0Ay

Sounds much like the Rodney Morris design using a zero crossing chip
to drive two ICs, 8 resistors and 4 caps and a triac.  Worked for up
to a 15 amp triac.

dion
- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 17:01:39 +1000
From: Rick Wood <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: brewing techniques and Stephen Mallery

Hello All,

With all of the talk about BT and Stephen's message today I thought I
would  resend the message that I sent back in 1999.  

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 06:45:03 +1000
From: "Rick Wood" <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: Re BT

Hello All,
All this talk regarding BT, I just had to respond.

I received my mailing from BT regarding the three options and it took
virtually no thought regarding which option to accept.  I accepted the
forgive the debt option.  I did this not as an act of charity, but as
an act of forgiveness and thanks for a job well done.  The letter
explaining the situation seemed sincere to me.  I have no doubt that
the people at BT did the absolute best they could have done, under the
circumstances.  If they were not doing the best that they could, how
else could they have produced such a respected magazine?

I am sad to see them gone.  I hope BT is reincarnated in some way.  I
must say that if AHA does not do this, they are missing an
opportunity!

Regards,
Rick Wood
Brewing on Guam

And now several years later, I still wish well to Stephen and want to
thank him for the several years of BT that he gave us.  I wish it
could have continued longer.

Regards,
Rick Wood
Still Brewing on Guam



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:23:40 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: rice solids substitute

Jeff wrote me back and said
> I confess that I never worry about how much because I add it and then 
> heat the mash tun and recirculate until I reach to next step (same 
snip
> Hope this helps at least a little.

Well, I guess I'm going to do just that.  I will just boil some extra water and
have it ready in case I undershoot the temp, which seems more likely than and
overshoot.  Adding some ice for an overshoot is easy too.

Guess what I should do is actually complete my RIMS.  I have all the components
but have never connected everything and tested it. 

In order to maintain a fully load of beer bullets, I brew in the garage.  SHMBO
likes the smell of the mash but not the smell of boiling bitter wort.  This
time of year temps are typically in the 20's.  That is another good reason I
should finish the RIMS I started about 3 years ago.  Having the RIMS would make
mash temperature stability a non-issue.  The final reason is just because.



> 
> Jeff
> -- 
> Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
> "One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Horse with no Name



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 07:34:14 -0500 (EST)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: using yeast from secondary?

I brewed a Hefe several weeks ago, put into secondary 2 weeks ago 
(without harvesting the yeast) then bottled (and pigged) last night,
saving they yeast.  What is the scoup on yeast from the secondary?  Is
it more or less vital than that from the primary?

 .Darrell


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 06:32:11 -0600
From: "Dan McFeeley" <mcfeeley at keynet.net>
Subject: Re: Acid levels of mead

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 , Russ Hobaugh wrote:

>I posted this on the MLD, but got no response, maybe I will have
>better luck here.
>
>I recently bought a wine acid test kit to get more precise in
>my approach to mead. It is very simple, but gives no acid
>levels regarding mead. It has instructions for red, white, and
>fruit wines.  Would a mead equate to acid levels of a white
>wine?    [....] rest of post deleted

Hello Russ --

One reason why you may not have gotten a reply on MLD is
because many meadmakers don't use acid at all.  The meads
come out well, balance is good, and acid is not needed.  For
those who do use acid, exact guidelines for acid additions to
meads are impossible because of the wide variations of flavor
found in all the different varietal honeys.  If you're going to use
acid, add it according to taste, but taste it first before you add
anything to the mead.  It might be just fine as it is, without any
additives. 

Happy meadmaking!

<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley
mcfeeley at keynet.net




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:38:49 -0500
From: russ at rfischer.mailshell.com
Subject: robotic pub

Next time you're in Berlin, stop by the Automaten Bar to have a drink
served by
a robot.  It is completely automated, no human bartenders

 It appears to be pretty popular, as they've already got 130 members after 2
weeks without any advertising.

Be careful if you order a screwdriver, you might not get what you expect :-)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,643721,00.html



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:25:26 +0000
From: "Joel Plutchak" <plutchak at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Easymashers & MCAB


In HBD #3858, Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com> asks:
>Has anyone ever used an EasyMasher in the kettle to
>help filter out break & hops?  I've got a 3-tier
>system and I pump from the Kettle to the CFC. My
>concern is that the EM will clog from the break.

   I have used an EasyMasher (large converted-keg size)
in the boiling vessel several times.  The only time
I had problems with clogging was when I used pelletized
hops (~50% by weight were pellets, the rest whole).

Chuck Bernard announced:
>Attention all MCAB-IV eligible brewers. . .

   As of today at 8:05am CST (9:05am RennerianST) the
list of eligible brewers still hasn't appeared on the
MCAB web site.  Will the list be included in the "entry
details" to be posted by this weekend?  T'would be nice
to know, especially for those of us who don't consciously
enter competitions with MCAB as a goal.  (You'd be
surprised-- or maybe not-- how many contests I enter
unconsciously. ;-)

Joel Plutchak
Mashing Easily and Unconsciously in East-central Illinois
[275.4, 238.2] Apparent Rennerian




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:45:57 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Jeff's berry beer

David Sherfey asks me from Warwick, NY

>is this berry flavor one that might be used to good effect in another
>beer, or was this a distinctly bad "berry" flavor?  If good, how much do
>you think or guess would be needed in a 5 gallon brew to get to a mild
>threshold level?

It was distinctly unpleasant in a pilsner, with a bit of roughness to 
it, but somebody in the brew club was going to try it for a fruit 
beer.  don't know if they did or not.

I've just found my notes for this 2/29/96 brew.  For 8 gallons I used 
1/2 Hallertauer for FWH and 50 grams Cluster (7.2%) for FWH with no 
additional bitterness hops.  I would say this was more than threshold 
but not in your face.

This reminds me that using all of your bittering hops for FWH can 
work nicely.  I did this Columbus hops for an American Pale Ale and 
was happy with the results, and I tasted a pale lager that Steve 
Alexander did with noble hops that was quite nice (but out of style 
for the Helles he was aiming for - too much hop flavor!).

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:57:40 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Alt Beer Hopping

Rick Seibt <ale_brewer at yahoo.com> writes from Mentor, OH

>I'm brewing an Alt bier next week and need
>some suggestions on the hopping.  I'm thinking of
>First Wort Hopping (merely to experiment with it).
>I'll be using 4-5% Saaz or Tett's for the FWH. How
>much bitterness should I attribute to my overall IBUS
>for this?  Is there any easy calculation out there?

The original way of FWHing was to simply move the usual flavor hops 
to FWH and ignore the bitterness that results.  I find it worthwhile 
to at least keep in mind the FWH bitterness contribution so I don't 
overhop.  IOW, don't hop at the maximum for the style.  The fWH 
bitterness is a smooth, clean bitterness, and if you read the 
original German reports (available somewhere in HBD.org) you'll note 
that the taste panels generally found the FWH pilsners to have a more 
pleasing bitterness even though they analyzed higher ppm of 
isomerized alpha acids (IBUs).

So, if you have an alt recipe that you like that has late addition 
flavor hops, just chuck 'em in the first wort and let 'em ride.  I 
still like to add some aroma hops when I shut off the burner.

As I just posted, it can be nice to experiment using only FWHs.  In 
this case you'd probably want to consider the bittering contribution 
as the same as full boil hops.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:21:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Ronnie Anderson" <lerxst at webmages.com>
Subject: splitting a 5 gallon batch

I'm taking the all grain plunge this weekend (if my false bottom
arrives), and have a question about brewpots.

I live on the second floor in an apartment with a gas stove. It takes
30 minutes or more to get 3 gallons of wort to a full boil, so buying
a 30 quart pot and trying to boil 6 gallons of wort on one burner
will be next to impossible. Since I cannot have propane on the
balcony, and am not going to lug 6 gallons of water up and down the
stairs, I was planning on buying another 20 qt pot and splitting the
wort between the two.

So, is it better to sparge into one big bucket and then split the
batch between the two pots out of the bucket? Or is sparging directly
from the tun to the first pot, then switching the hose to the second
pot after the first one is full, ok?

If I go with the second option, there will be a gravity difference
between the wort in the pots. Won't that make my hop utilization
different between the two?

Is it worth adding the extra step or not?

TIA,
Ronnie




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:20:29 -0500
From: "Mike Dixon" <mpdixon at ipass.net>
Subject: CARBOY Shamrock Open - March 16, 2002

To all potential entrants, stewards, and judges...

The 6th Annual Carboy Shamrock Open Homebrew Competition will be 
held March 16, 2002 at the BB&Y Restaurant in Raleigh, NC.

The competition is registered with the BJCP, and is a qualifying event for
NCBoY.

Entry deadline is March 10, 2002 at 5 pm.  Online entries are preferred.
Entry rules and information can be found at
http://www.hbd.org/carboy/shamrock.htm

A raffle is also being planned, and lunch is provided for judges and
stewards.

Please contact mpdixon at ipass.net with any questions 
or to sign up as a judge or steward.

Cheers,
Mike




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:29:20 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: gelatin, etc.

Chester Waters <cwaters at cox.net> writes from Omaha, Ne about gelatin

>I'd appreciate your suggestions on amount to use FOR
>PROTEIN HAZE, whether you see any flavor/hop, or heading/mouthfeel loss
>(compared with age-settling), and how/if you sterilize it for use.

I'd better not guess on this because I don't remember.  I'm sure I've 
read.  Some of our members who didn't bail ChemE before p-chem (as I 
did) might be able to better answer.

I think of it as you do, as a cask fining agent like isinglass.  I 
think it might take a little hops bitterness, but it doesn't seem 
significant if it does.  I don't notice any other changes.

I've had several other questions about how I use gelatin.  I just 
dump a packet (1/4 oz., or 7 grams) of no-name grocery store 
unflavored gelatin in a cup or so of cold water and microwave it 
until it just starts to form bubbles around the edge, stirring 
occasionally to avoid lumps.  Then when I've racked about 1/3 of the 
beer, I add some beer (1-2 cups) to the gelatin, then pour it into 
the keg or carboy.  I make sure that the flow of the beer stirs it up 
(and I always CO2 purge the keg or carboy before I start).  In a 
carboy, you can see the top layer begin to clear with an hour or two. 
Cold beer (cellar temperature of low 50s F, or 10-12C) helps.

BTW, thanks for the nice words.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:47:22 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: The Jethro Gump Report

"Rob Moline" <jethrogump at home.com> wrote from Des Moines, Iowa:

>the 5 gram sachet is really a remnant of the yeast packaging handed 
>down from bread yeast manufacturers protocols.

Not sure that is the reason as bread yeast is packed in 1/4 ounce (7 
gram) envelopes.

Rob also asks about Bob Hall's <rallenhall at hotmail.com> excerpt from 
"The Lager Beer Industry in 19th Century America," by John Hall (no 
relation), German Life magazine, Dec/Jan, 1996.  This relates how 
lager yeast was brought to Mmilwaukee by Herr Wagner, a brewery 
worker at Best's Brewery.

>      Curious that this reference of 1840 predates what I had previously
>learned about Dreher and Sedelmeyer, concerning their work leading to the
>first lagers in 1841....subsequently to Plzen in 1842...and the first pure
>cultures of lagers in 1883'ish.....
>      Anybody got any better references than I do?

The oldest reference I have is "One Hundred of Brewing" (Western 
Brewer, 1903, reprinted by Arno Press, 1974), p. 207:

"The following, furnished by Mr. Charles C. Wolf, of the old firm of 
Engel & Wolf ... :

"The first lager beer brewed in American was that of John Wagner in 
1840, who had a small brewery in the rear of his house [in] 
Philadelphia. ... Wagner brought the first lager beer yeast to this 
country from a brewery in Bavaria in which he had been a brewmaster."

Obviously the memory of an old man in 1903 of dates 60+ years earlier 
is open to question, but this date is often cited.  I wonder how it 
jibes with the story of Herr Wagner and Milwaukee.

Someone with more time could find references to the dates of lager 
brewing in Europe and the first isolation of pure culture yeast.  I 
have the books right here, just not the time.  See Dave Miller's 
Pilsener book and the Fixes Vienna book (p. 6).  Dreher and Sedlmayr 
introduced lager yeast to their Vienna And Munich breweries in 1841, 
but the Bavarian monks had been using it before that.  As Fix writes, 
"the success of this change was instantaneous, and news spread 
quickly."  It's clear that the early 1840s represented a sea change 
in brewing.


Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:39:00 -0600
From: "cwaters" <cwaters at cox.net>
Subject: Easy Masher  in Boil Kettle

Rick Seibt
Mentor, OH asks:
"Has anyone ever used an EasyMasher in the kettle to
help filter out break & hops?  I've got a 3-tier
system and I pump from the Kettle to the CFC. My
concern is that the EM will clog from the break."
Rick:
    It sure WILL plug up when pulled hard by a pump. What I did is to make a
manifold to place two screens on either side of the boil kettle (bend them
right up against the sides) and then after the boil (wait after the fire's
out 10-15 minutes for the kettle and wort to come to thermal equilibrium)
whirlpool/stir and let that settle until still. Most of the break material
piles in the center, and any remaining hops (I use whole flower for this
reason) that pull down to the screens act as a filter. Start your pump with
outflow nearly closed and only open it up  as this natural filter settles
around the screens. You'll need to throttle down the pump anyway to keep
your outflow temp from the CFC where you want it. Works great for me now,
but took awhile to figure this out. BTW, I used a Sure Screen (or a name
similar - can't remember - identical in every way with the EasyMasher but
only about $9.  Bet your local HB shop has or can order these. Also, they
exactly press-fit into the male end of sweat-fit copper unions, elbows, etc
(3/8", I think) . Called a 'street union', I believe. Makes removing the
screens for cleaning a piece of cake.  Hope this helps.
    Chester Waters
    Omaha, Ne.
    (Renerian Exile)
'People who claim to know everything are particularly
irritating to those of us who really do'
Ben Rogge (1967)



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:20:12 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: When to start All-Grain

Dunn, Drew A. <Drew.Dunn at jhuapl.edu> probes:

>I have only brewed a few batches ( a half-dozen or so ) which have been
>extract with specialty grains, but I have an itch to try all grain.  I
>understand the need for extra equipment and add complexity.  I look at these
>as more fun, not more headache.  My brewing buddy (also strictly extract)
>argues that there is still so much to explore with extract such as different
>yeast strains, hop variety, hop rates, etc.  to keep one busy before
>stepping up to all grain.  Does anyone have an advice?  Is it too early to
>switch to all-grain?  Would I be better off experiment with various aspect
>in the extract realm then switch to all-grain after I have a better feel for
>them?

Opinions are like rear ends --- everybody has one.  [There are other
similarities, but we will let that pass for now.]  And since I  am not
shy about sharing mine (opinion, that is), particularly since it will
probably represent a different view than those that will be presented
by others, here it comes.

Before saying anything else, I will simply state that regardless of
anyone's opinion, you should do what you want.  There are few absolutes
when it comes to homebrewing.  This is one of the things that makes it
so enjoyable.  I happen to feel that the path I took worked out very
well for me, and so I present it for your consideration.

When I first started brewing (a long time ago in a galaxy far far
away), like almost everyone, I started with what I now call "kit"
beers.  You buy a can of "instant beer" (hopped malt extract) and more
or less follow the directions on the can, or (better) those of the
homebrew shop proprietor.  Before long, I quit buying the kits and
moved into what I now call "extract" brewing.  You buy bulk malt
extract and add specialty grains and hops.

And like you, the urge to advance to all-grain was strong, so I tried
it.  I called that batch "PITA Pale Ale", because it was exactly that
- --- a total Pain In The Opinion.  It was not that the beer turned out
bad.  It was just a lot of trouble to make, not really any better than
what I had brewed previously, and I knew that the chance of making a
batch to match it was nearly impossible.  My equipment was lousy, and
it just took all the joy out of the process.

I decided that all-grain brewing was fraught with factors that would
make it difficult to make the same beer consistently.  And while I now
know that this is not the case, perhaps it was fortunate that I came to
this conclusion at that time.  I resolved to forego future attempts at
AGB, and concentrate on improving my base skills.

There were two goals that I deemed important.  The first was to be able
to formulate my own recipes, starting every brew with the same base
(bulk light unhopped malt extract), adding the right specialty grains
and hops, and in the right amounts, to make any desired style of beer. 
The second was to be able to take a batch of beer I liked, and make a
second (third, fourth, etc.) batch that came out identical to the
first.  I wanted to be able to make subtle changes to a recipe (like
use a different hop variety) and know that any differences I observed
were the result of the change, and not because my brewing process was
different.  The first goal was achieved by research; the second goal
required practice, practice, practice.

I got to the point where I looked upon all-grain brewers with a certain
amount of disdain.  They did a whole lot more work than I and
generally, the results were certainly no better.  More experienced
brewers, I decided, simply made better beer, regardless of whether they
make it from grain or extract.  [Incidentally, I still feel that this
statement is absolutely true.]  I was proud of the fact that my extract
beers did not have that "all-grain twang". <snicker>

And then a curious thing happened.  I made a batch of one of my
favorite beers using my tried and true recipe.  Nothing went wrong in
the brewing or the fermentation, but the beer was sour and simply
gawdawful, and I had no idea why.  I happened to be poking around in my
homebrew supply store when another brewer brought in a sample of his
latest for comment from the beer guru.  This beer was sour and awful
and he could not understand what went wrong.  Naturally, this got my
attention.  The proprietor explained that the manufacturer had made a
batch of bad extract and this had been used in his (and as it happened,
my) beer.  It had been infected during the manufacturing process, and
although the infection was subsequently killed off, the damage had been
done and the extract was sour.  [When queried about what they would do
about it, the manufacturer simply laughed and responded that we should
all be happy that they had made an extract perfect for producing
lambics.  I do not think the proprietor ever bought anything from that
manufacturer again, and I know that I did not.]

It hit me like a ton of bricks.  One of my primary goals (consistency)
was compromised by the fact that I did not have control of the entire
brewing process.  Over the next few days, I acquired the equipment I
needed and my next batch was all-grain.  Even though I might still brew
an extract based beer from time to time, I have never looked back. 
After practice, practice, and more practice, I now find that I can
control the all-grain process well enough to make the same beer over
and over again, just like before.  Now, the only aspects of the brewing
process that I do not control are the farming of the grains and hops,
and malting.  [And if I start getting inconsistent results because some
maltster gets sloppy ...]

And there was a side benefit to all this.  Since I had formulated my
recipes starting from a standard light unhopped malt extract, it was a
snap to convert them to use a standard pale malt.  I found that
formulation of new (now all grain) recipes was no more complicated than
it had been.  [This is significant because, IMHO, recipe formulation is
a serious pitfall for inexperienced all-grain brewers.]

So it sounds like I agree with your brewing buddy.  Make incremental
steps towards AGB by working with the specialty grains you need when
brewing from a base malt extract.  Learn how to infuse hot water into
those specialty grains and control the temperatures.  Learn to maximize
the amount of "goodness" you get from those grains by rinsing them
properly, without leaching out tannins.  Guess what!  The best results
are achieved by using the same techniques you would use if ALL the malt
was grain.  And you need exactly the same equipment albeit on a smaller
scale perhaps.  You just do not have to wait for starch conversion in
specialty grains.

Most of all, enjoy what you do and how you do it.  Make beer that you
really like no matter what it takes!

Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:39:37 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: FWH/clarification

Jeff Renner writes ...

> >Maybe a pils with aroma of Northern Brewer rather than Saaz, is less
> >than ideal, but it's not "less than desirable".
>
>[...] Cluster as FWHs in a Classic American Pilsner (CAP) several years ago
> and got a distinct black currant or berry flavor (not particularly an
> aroma).  This is the flavor of Cluster that is normally boiled away
> when it is used for bittering, but I found the beer nearly spoiled by
> it.  It was sure "less than desirable" for me!  People actually
> thought I'd used berries in the beer.

I see- if it's UNdesirable you try it on your friends instead of the sewer ?
;^)

 ... black currant ...

A couple weeks back everyone was dumping on a beer writer who was describing
beers in the sort of fanciful analogy language used in describing wines.  I
don't know the writer and have no opinion of his descriptive abilities, but
I do know this.  Nearly all printed descriptions of beer component flavors
are so pitifully inadaquate that it's a bit like communicating with grunts
and nods.   You can't even find basics like whether a yeast produces 4VG or
high esters or if a hop is citrusy  without talking to someone who has used
it.  Better descriptions are desparately needed.  Al Korzonas provided the
only good comparative descriptions of speciality malts, hops and yeasts I've
seen in his book "Homebrewing: Volume 1", and  trustworthy Al also described
Cluster (and Brewers Gold, Northdown & Phoenix) as having a black currant
flavor.

"Black current" is an unfortunate description since most Americans aren't
familiar with the flavor.  It's not blackberry, and most of the North
American products labelled black current are really "Ribes oderatum" or a
cross of black current (Ribes nigrum) and other species.   Well that's
probably close enough but not the same.  To add to the confusion Europeans
are likely to describe an off-note in beer as "Ribes"  when they are
referring to the mercaptan-ish aroma of the plants leaves.

Anyway Cluster is rather low in the three essential oils mentioned, but my
hunch is the flavor you are referring to may be geraniol and related
compounds.  I'm a little surprised this survives the boil, but perhaps I'm
missing something or the explanation of FWH is incomplete.

> I think I'd stick to the finer aroma-type hops for FWH - noble hops,
> Goldings, Cascade, etc.

Of course  - and correct selection of hops flavor/aroma that match style is
very important when the beer calls for prominant hop flavor aroma, but most
accidental substitutions aren't disasterous.

===

Chester Waters makes some good points about wort clarification ...
especially that gelatin and isinglas are essentially similar - that is they
are solubilized proteins which can adhere to yeast.  Also that time will
cure most hazes eventually.

The other common HB fining agents - PVPP and polyclarAT are plastic
protein-like molecules that are more likely to bond to polyphenols than to
yeast.  Carageenen (Irish Moss) is a complex carbohydrate with an even more
complex mode of action in the boiler.

Haze is a complex problem and without some advanced measurement techniques a
nearly intractible problem.  Every fining agent works under some
circumstance, but some hazes are not likely to respond to any fining agent.

I do think that Chester (and maybe JeffR) missed one crucial point when Jeff
wrote ...
>Two weeks in the secondaries and it was still hazy, so I
>racked it to two new carboys with a packet of gelatin.  The next
>morning it was crystal clear

Racking introduces oxygen which acts to oxidize and polymerize phenols which
in turn form larger haze particles which sediment faster.   The gelatin adds
additional protein which also interacts with the polyphenolics involved in a
protein haze.

Protein haze is an optic effect when a high enough concentration of
particles of the 'right' size appear.  The particles are protein+phenol
complexes with polyphenols acting as 'glue' connecting several protein
molecules.  After haze has formed the only solutions that I am aware of
involve adding proteases to reduce the protein sizes, or alternatively to
increase the complexes enough to cause them to sediment quickly.  Adding
proteases will impact beer in othe ways.

You can increase the complexes by adding enough tannoids (polyphenols) to
cause these complexes to grow.  Unfortunately it's difficult to gauge the
amount of tannoids needed.  A too small addition may increase the amount of
haze rather than decreasing it.  It's not uncommon for example for a clear
beer to form a protein haze when dry hopping increases the polyphenolic
levels.

 -S







Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:55:30 -0600
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: EasyMasher in the kettle and Alt hopping


Hi all,

	Rick Seibt asks about using an EasyMasher in his
kettle to filter out the hops, hoping to avoid plugging
up his counterflow chiller.  Rick, this works really well
with whole hops, setting up a nice filter bed that holds
out the hot break, too.  It's a bit dicey with pellet hops,
which seem to combine with the hot break to clog up the
works.  If you use all whole hops, you're home free.  You
can get away with about 50% pellets, 50% whole hops in
standard beers, but with high gravity beers, the excessive
hot break seems to rule out using any pellets at all.

	Rick also asks about hopping schedules for Altbiers,
paticularly about FWHing with this style.  Rick, this works
really nicely for alts, especially if you use mostly Munich
malt for the grist.  There's no general consensus on the IBU
contribution from FWH, but many, including me, calculate it
at the same utilization level as a 25 minute boil addition.
For my alt recipe, I've been using 95% Weissheimer Munich,
5% crystal (40-50L,) about 10 IBUs of Spalt Select FWH, and 
40 IBUs of Spalt at 60 minutes, with the Wyeast 1007 German 
ale yeast, at an OG of about 1.052 or so.  The competing factors 
of assertive bitterness, tons of Munich malt and a yeast that tends
to give a dry, clean finish is quite interesting.  A recent batch 
won a first at the Ohio State Fair last summer.

	Rick, I see you're from Mentor, Ohio.  Have you made it
to a SNOBs (Society of Northeast Ohio Brewers) meeting yet?  Check
out the web page at www.beersnobs.org if you're interested.  

			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Heights, OH


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 17:23:29 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Acid in Mead

The simple fact with respect to the acidity of mead is that there isn't
any to speak of. Even though honey measures at a quite low pH there
isn't any buffering capacity to back it up. Thus your test kit is
telling the truth. For all intents and purposes the only acid you'll
find in mead is the acid you add.

A.J.




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:09:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: fanciful analogy language

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

S.A. quips...

> A couple weeks back everyone was dumping on a beer writer who
> was describing beers in the sort of fanciful analogy language
> used in describing wines.

You do him a great honor. No, the descriptive phrases used are
more akin to the sort of fanciful analogical language used in
Monty Python skits.

Your point is well taken - but I'd hate to get score sheets back
with this yahoo's prose splattered all over it :^)

- --
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:57:31 -0500
From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com>
Subject: RE When to start All-Grain / Beer vs Soup

> Is it too early to switch to all-grain?  Would I be better off
>experiment with various aspect  in the extract realm then
>switch to all-grain after I have a better feel for them?

The methods of homebrewing beer are very similar to different methods of

making soup.  There are basically three ways to make each.  The easiest
way to make soup is to take a can of soup and heat it up.  The soup is
usually decent but no one will be raving about it.  The intermediate way

is take a can of soup and add your own vegetables, noodles and/or
seasoning.  It's sort of your own, but someone else made much of it.
The final way to make soup is to cook your own stock and add your own
ingredients.

The first and second methods have limited risks of failure but have
limited rewards.  Also the question that begs to be answered is, "did
you really make it yourself or just heat it up?"  Making soup from is
scratch is more risky and certainly more time consuming.  But if you are

going to call yourself a "soup chef", only one of those methods seems to

make sense.

So to more directly respond to your question; yes, your friend is right
in that you could expand your experience in the domain of mini-mash.
However, by no means do you have to explore that area before you can
jump head first into the world of all-grain mashing.  The best time to
switch to all grain is when you have the bug to do it.

Although I am now mainly an all-grain brewer, I have been known to throw

together a mini-mash w/extract batch when I am short on time or energy.

Don Lake
Orlando, FL





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:56:38 -0500
From: "Mike Pensinger" <Beermkr at bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: HERMS/fermentors


>>David Passaretti writes:

DaveP> I am attempting to automate a HERMS (thank you Nate, Bill, CD,
DaveP> and others for your input) system and have at my disposal a
DaveP> Gefran 3300 PID controller. It has what is called an analog
DaveP> output (0-10V). I know nothing about these controllers. Does
DaveP> anyone know if there is anyway to use this controller to turn a
DaveP> mag drive pump on/off or control a solenoid?

My suggestion is to hook the controller up on the workbench and hook a
multimeter to the output.  If the output jumps from 0 to 10V then you can
use it to drive a solid state relay.  I use this sort of setup on my system
to drive both the heaters and the mash pump via a Pulse Width Modulator.


Mike Pensinger
beermkr at bellatlantic.net
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~beermkr/
Norfolk Virginia - [551.4, 132.9] Rennerian




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:18:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Gregg Ferlin <gferlin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grain Mill Review Article in Zymurgy

I recall a reveiw published in Zymurgy in the last 12
to 18 months on grain mills.  I think it covered 4
popular mills.  I now can't find the issue amongst my
collection. Anybody remember it and what issue it was
in?

I've already searched the archives, I just want to
re-read the article before I make my purchase.

Gregg Ferlin



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:55:54 -0500
From: "Rich Medina" <gothambrewer at bigfoot.com>
Subject: EZ masher

Lurk mode off....

Rick Seibt Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com> writes in HBD # 3858, "has anyone
ever used an EasyMasher in the kettle to help filter out break & hops?
I've got a 3-tier system and I pump from the Kettle to the CFC. My concern
is
that the EM will clog from the break."

I have tried using the EZ masher as you have described.  Much to my
chagrin the few times I have used this device it has either clogged from
the pelletized hops or bent from the weight of the immersion coil
creating a crimp on the SS mesh.  While I am sure it does a respectable
job at mashing, it is a bonafide PITA to have 10+ gallons of chilled
wort trickling into a carboy!

I suppose you can use leaf hops with your EZ masher and since you have a
CFC you won't have to worry about bending the SS mesh but I would
recommend using something less susceptible to clogging i.e. a false bottom.

Lurk mode on!


Rich Medina
Gothambrewery, NYC
gothambrewer at bigfoot.com

You can observe alot just by watching
 - Yogi Berra







Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:35:42 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: Shiner Bock Recipe (?)

 I recently drove through a good deal of Texas, and was challenged to
attempt to brew a Shiner Bock.
Does anyone have a good,
all-grain recipefor this brew?

 ..Darrell
[Plattsburgh, NY, 545.7, 72.3 Rennerian/ 44.41.58 N. Lat, 73.27.12 W Lon]



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:46:56 -0500
From: "Angie and Reif Hammond" <arhammond at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Copper copper

>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:21:43 +0100 
>From: Bjoern.Thegeby at cec.eu.int
>Subject: Copper copper

>Looking aroung the local antique junk market, I spotted a 
>large copper pot with a price tag of 25 euro. It was still 
>there at the end of the market, but at 15 euros,  and I am 
>now the proud owner of a +/- 200 litre copper vessel with 
>an antique brass valve attached. 

>It is roughly 80 cm across and 60 cm high (you translate 
>to funny measures)  with a flat bottom, no tin or other 
>covering inside. It is almost certainly an industrial 
>strength jam boiler. Any ideas what to do with it? (No, I 
>will not ship it to you.)



Bjorn,

You might check to see if your measures are funny.  A round pot 80 cm in
diameter and 60 cm tall has a volume of about 300000 cc or +/- 300
litres!

Reif Hammond
Durham, NH





Return to table of contents

---