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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  EasyMasher/SureScreens in boil kettles ("Michael Maag")
  Re: When to start All-Grain ("Larry Bristol")
  Wayback Machine / Dough in (Road Frog)
   ("Tom Byrnes")
  dual pot boiling/splitting 5 gallons (davidson richard)
  RE: kettle screens, Kle*n bashing, doughing in and cornmeal (Brian Lundeen)
  Mail order recommendation--Brewer's Rendezvous ("Neil K")
  Mai-Bock (leavitdg)
  re: Subject: Re: New Temperture Controler Chip. ("Ralph Davis")
  Microbiology and malting. (Clifton Moore)
  Alternatives to the E-Z Masher and Sure Screen (Stephen Johnson)
  licorice ("D. Clark")
  White Labs expanding ("Robert J. Waddell")
  Re:fanciful analogy language (Phil Wilcox)
  Beer From Dirt Project ("Dan Listermann")
  HB Song ("Jeff Tonole")
  Re: False Bottoms /  B*b Kl**n (Dion Hollenbeck)


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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:54:50 -0500
From: "Michael Maag" <MichaelMaag at doli.state.va.us>
Subject: EasyMasher/SureScreens in boil kettles

I have used Surescreens in the boil kettle for about 60 10 gallon
batches.  The key seems to be:
Use at least one ounce of flower hops (to help hold the break in a pile
if you wirlpool, and to help filter the break.
Let the cooled wort settle for 40-60 minutes so the break and pellet
pieces can settle to the bottom of the kettle.  If the break/pellet muck
is still in suspension, it gets sucked thorugh the screen and clogs.

Hope this helps,
Mike Maag, Shenandoah Valley


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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:29:51 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: When to start All-Grain

On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:53:12 -0500, Jeff Renner wrote:

>So, Larry, when will you be taking up farming and malting?

Not any time soon.  Farming is HARD WORK!  I do have a garden.  Does
that count?  But regardless, there is no point looking in my garden for
amber waves of grain.  :-)

>... grew wheat for a few years ... and malted it a few 
>times.  I decided I didn't want that much control, especially since I 
>wasn't in control very well of the malting.

Jeff, you just need practice, practice, practice. <g>

As you know, a homebrewer can exercise as much or as little control
over the process as he/she wants.  Regardless of how much control one
takes, the same 10 steps are always performed:  grow grain and hops,
malt the grain, mill it, mash, sparge, boil, cool, spooge [what?!?],
ferment, condition.  The question is not whether they get done, but
merely who does them.  The homebrewer can take full control and do all
10 steps himself, but it is a lot of work.  Don't want that much
control (work)?  Then let someone else do steps 1-N until you step in,
take control, and (of course) claim all the credit!  [Blame all
failures on whoever did steps 1-N.]

Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 06:57:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Road Frog <road_frog_run at yahoo.com>
Subject: Wayback Machine / Dough in

OK, maybe not way back Mr. Peabody.  Just back.

On Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:32:35 -0700 (MST)
 ...Reggale and Dredhop Homebrew Competition will take
place on March 30th, 2001...

Can I just send in a "B*b Kl**n" description?  How
about a beer I brewed then.  Does one of those _Back
to the Future_ guys run a competitor to UPS?

For dough in I add the water to the grain, then more
grain, then more water.  Only because I mill in two
batches and store the first milling in the cooler
while I mill the second batch.  I do have to fight
starch balls with this method.

On-In,
Glyn in Southern Middle TN



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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:48:41 -0500
From: "Tom Byrnes" <kmstfb2 at exis.net>
Subject: 

What would be good to clean the brown stains off the inside 
bottom of  a stainless steel pot. Dishwashing liquid doesn't
 do the job.  Tom





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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:13:07 -0800 (PST)
From: davidson richard <ooh_rick at yahoo.com>
Subject: dual pot boiling/splitting 5 gallons

Instead of trying to capture the 5 gallons in two
different pots, therefore having two different
gravities, why not collect the entire run-off in one
bucket and THEN split between your two boil kettles. 
You'll be assured of identical gravities and your hop
utilization will remain relative.

You're not really adding that much time or procedural
steps to the process.  I'm not totally convinced of
the hazards of hot-side aeration yet, but you could
still do it without much danger of introducing oxygen,
I think.



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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:07:16 -0600 
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: kettle screens, Kle*n bashing, doughing in and cornmeal

Wayne Holder writes:

> The key to not clogging a screen with pellet hops is to 
> slowly open the valve. This will avoid hop compaction.

Not trying to slam you here, Wayne, but I will continue my skepticism until
I hear about successfully using a screen (any screen) in a boil kettle from
someone who does not market the product.

I don't see this as being an issue of hop compaction so much as the pellet
hops simply will not provide the "roughage" that the sticky goopy break
material need (and get from whole hops) in order to maintain drainage paths.
I can't see how any screen would not get totally covered in this gunk and
clog up instantly. 

Joel Plutchak writes of the beer writer whose name dare not be spoken:

> sometimes describes how the taste of a beer changes 
> "mid-bottle."  What, does he swig it straight from the long- 
> neck?  (I suspect he's merely experiencing the temperature 
> dependence of certain flavors, so why not properly attribute 
> the change to that instead of where it sits in the bottle?  

I really think you guys in rfdb make too much about this mid-bottle
business. It's just a convenient way of saying "halfway through drinking". I
don't interpret it to mean he is swigging straight out of the bottle. I
think he's correct, the perceived taste of a beer (or wine, or a lot of
beverages) does change as you drink it. At least if it is worth drinking.
Characteristics that struck you as prominent initially will become muted as
your buds start to accept them as normal "background noise". Then new things
will start to emerge. Perhaps you have valid complaints about his
perceptions being contradictory or just plain wrong, but I don't regard the
mid-bottle term as a shining example of his failings.

Danny Breidenbach asks:

> What's best, and then what works well enough for 5-gallon 
> batches: Add grist to water, add water to grist?

I'm going to really stir the mash here (I just shouldn't post on a Friday,
I'm just cranky and opinionated at the end of a work week, especially after
getting a snippy email from a co-worker that thinks that I'm the bad guy
because of their lack of planning ability)... What was I saying, oh yes...

Heat your water to strike temp, dump in your bucket of grains. That simple.
I don't want to hear about enzymes being denatured in the  scant seconds it
takes to pull the water temp down, or cold dough-ins, or mixing equal parts
little by little, or underletting... My brew day is long enough without
fussing about at this stage. It takes me about 5 minutes to get in there
with my mash paddle and gently create a nice homogeneous mash with no dough
balls. I use an average ratio of 2.7 l/kg (I'm Canadian, eh?) with a
reasonably fine crush from my Valley Mill and that seems to work like your
proverbial Ukrainian fishing boat. Halfway through I'll go back in for
another stir just to top up the heat a bit and make sure I didn't miss any
dough balls (never seem to find any on the second pass though). And in all
this time, I've never had my personal BJCP judge comment, "hmmm, can really
taste the unconverted starches in that one".

Finally, a question of my own (and feel free to respond as crankily as you
wish). Does cornmeal, pound for pound, contribute the same amount of extract
as flaked corn? ProMash has flaked corn but not corn meal inits ingredient
database and I want to be certain I'm formulating my recipe correctly. I
also see some cornmeal labelled as pre-cooked. Can this go straight in the
mash or does it need the double mash, too? Should I avoid it and just buy
plain old-fashioned uncooked stuff?

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:50:55 -0500
From: "Neil K" <neilk27 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Mail order recommendation--Brewer's Rendezvous

With all the talk lately recommending good places to order from, I had to 
drop in my two cents in favor of Robert Johnson at Brewer's Rendezvous - 
www.bobbrews.com  (NAYYY...)

I live in Montreal but wanted to order some Zymico stuff to an address in 
Florida where a friend was staying for one week. I placed my order well in 
advance for it to arrive during my friend's stay, but due to credit card 
processing complications, the order was held up. As my deadline loomed, 
Robert shipped out my order priority postage (at his own expense) without 
even having my credit card authorization! He sent out a $100 package before 
the credit card company cleared it, because he said he didn't want a 
disappointed customer. He told me we could work out the payment details 
later. Eventually he did manage to get the authorization for my credit card 
but not before he took a leap of faith and sent my order. You don't get that 
kind of service very often anywhere thse days. I thanked him personally but 
will thank him again here.

By the way, I love the Zymico Kewler Kitz I bought to add a ball valve to a 
Gott cooler. I don't know why people bother improvising with their own parts 
when you can buy a ready-made bulkhead, rubber o-rings and a 1/2" full port 
stainless ball valve all for $38. It fits perfectly, is completely 
watertight and is all stainless steel. It's even cheaper if you go for the 
brass valve, or you can just buy the bulkhead for $19.


Neil Kushnir







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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:48:07 -0500 (EST)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Mai-Bock

I am going to make a Mai-Bock, and wonder if anyone has a good, all-
grain recipe for such?  I have a good deal of slurry from a Czech
Budovice (sp?) that I just placed in secondary, and am anxious to
re-use it.

 .Darrell


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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:51:48 -0500
From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com>
Subject: re: Subject: Re: New Temperture Controler Chip.

???
>Date: 05 Feb 2002 20:25:43 -0800
>From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
>Subject: Re: New Temperture Controler Chip.


>Pete> The topic of temperature control comes up frequently in this
>Pete> forum.  I just got a notice that Atmel has a new triac driver
>Pete> chip, a T2117.  The notice is at:
>Pete>
>Pete>
http://mailinglist.chipcenter.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=eFwa0Co4RK0Bbs0BWIs0Ay
>
>Sounds much like the Rodney Morris design using a zero crossing chip
>to drive two ICs, 8 resistors and 4 caps and a triac.  Worked for up
>to a 15 amp triac.
>
>dion
>- --
>Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
>Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
>Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen
???

I looked at the site and I really have NO IDEA what you are talking about...
(temp control for a freezer???).  Can you explain this using English, not
Engineeringeze?

Ralph W. Davis
Leesburg, Virginia
[395.2, 121.8] Apparent Rennerian

"Beer is living proof that God loves us
and wants us to be happy."   -Benjamin Franklin



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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:18:04 -0900
From: Clifton Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: Microbiology and malting.


My current investigations center about the two to three day steeping
process at the start of malting.

The objective is to cause the barley seed to imbibe water sufficient to
carry it through germination.  A target volume of water by weight is 45%.

The raw barley brings with it a wide variety of biota, which when
dumped into water strive to take advantage of their circumstance.
The challenge to the malter is to prevent them from damaging the
seeds germination.  Damage can manifest itself in many ways from
too rapid a germination (bolting), to delayed sprouting, to death and
fungal domination of the entire seed.

The traditional method of microbial control is to exchange water on
a schedule that flushes offending organisms such that their population is kept
in check.

I am currently searching for an initial steep treatment that will suppress
microbial activity so that the seeds will stand a better chance.  I then plan to

alternate the steep environment between aerobic and anaerobic by
adjusting the water exchange and aeration  schedule.

Two areas I wish to investigate are real time monitoring of microbial
populations, and inoculation with friendly creatures.

I can imagine that steep water might be circulated through an optical
path to assess microbial populations.  The free floating candidates are
yeasts and bacterial, with other single celled bacterial sized animalcules
swimming about (likely just flagellated bacteria).  Specific wavelength
absorption, or fluorescence strike me as likely candidates for gross assay.

On the "friendly creatures" front, I have experimented with Lactic Acid Bacteria

because they are available in the health food isle, and are considered food
safe.
The problem here is that they are not likely to thrive in a barley steep
environment.  If I could get them to grow I might expect the lowered
pH to kill fungal contaminants.  The barley must survive a period of
anaerobic soak, but the advantage of getting a head start on the fungus
would allow the seed to fend off infection via its own defense
mechanisms.  Yeast might also be used in this same way.

Any thoughts on the last two items would be appreciated.
I am currently in position of 2500 lbs. of malting barley that is presenting
me with this challenge of finding an optimal steep schedule.

Clifton Moore
ASF/RGPS
Geophysical Institute
University of Alaska
Fairbanks AK  99775

(907) 474 7417
cmoore at gi.alaska.edu




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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:21:07 -0600
From: Stephen Johnson <Stephen.Johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Alternatives to the E-Z Masher and Sure Screen

I seem to recall that one of our Tennessee brewing buddies in Chattanooga,
C.D. Pritchard, has used the stainless mesh coils from washer hoses that
Bret Morrow asks about in HBD 3860. You can check C.D.'s RIMS machine and
other interesting stuff at:
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/

I don't know if he still uses these things, but you can e-mail him and ask at
cdp at chattanooga.net and find out.

Steve Johnson, President
Music City Brewers
Nashville, TN
6980.2, 7.7 Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:55:43 -0500
From: "D. Clark" <clark at capital.net>
Subject: licorice

Hi list,
I haven't written in a very long time, but a question has come up.  I am 
planning a porter to enter in a competition.  It uses a pound of black 
malt, a licorice stick and a vanilla bean in the recipe.  I have made it 
before and it is the only porter that I have made that has been even close 
to being good.  My brewing supply shop (EBI in Saratoga) NAJASC had one 
stick of brewers licorice for months and I didn't buy it.  Sure enough when 
I went to buy it, it was gone.  I have a box of licorice toffees made by 
Callard and Bowser, but they have a lot of other stuff in them like salt, 
canola oil, condensed skim milk and brazil nut paste.  I can't find 
licorice anywhere else.  Will I be okay using these toffees or should I 
wait for my supplier to get some in?

Just for the record, I started mashing with Listermann's system.  I still 
use the whirlything. Have no reason not to.  My beer for the superbowl was 
a CAP (thank you Jeff Renner) and I currently have a wheat on tap.  TIA for 
your help.

Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, New York



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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:09:35 -0700
From: "Robert J. Waddell" <rjw at dimensional.com>
Subject: White Labs expanding

It's been quite awhile since I posted anything here, but I thought that 
this might be of interest to the collective.  From the Longmont Daily 
Times-Call, Longmont, CO, USA on 2-7-2002:

"White Labs Inc., has announced the opening of its first satellite office 
at 7960 Niwot Road, C-12, Niwot, CO.  The office will house the White Labs 
sales and marketing dept.
"To celebrate the opening, Dr. Chris White, White Labs President, will give 
a special "Valentine's Day" lecture on Brewing Belgian Beers.  The lecture 
will be held from 7:30 to 9 p.m. Thursday, Feb. 14, at Redstone Meadery in 
Boulder.  White Labs will also host an office open house from 4 to 7 p.m. 
Saturday, Feb. 16 in Niwot.
"For more information or to RSVP, contact JoAnne Carilli at 303-652-3119 or 
joanne at whitelabs.com".

With the close proximity of the AHA, the AOB, and all of the really great 
brewing businesses in this area, this looks like a very smart move by 
Chris.  I wish the best of luck to Chris and company, and welcome to Rockies.

BTW: check out Redstone Meadery: http://www.redstonemeadery.com/  Do I live 
close to Heaven, or what?
rjw


           I *L*O*V*E* my [Pico] system. 'Cept for that
           gonging noise it makes when my wife throws it
           off the bed at night.
                                        Women...
                                                     --Pat Babcock

           *** It's never too late to have a happy childhood! ***
****************************************************************************
RJW at dimensional.com  / Opinions expressed are usually my own but
Robert J. Waddell         / perhaps shared.
Owner & Brewmaster: Barchenspeider Brew-Haus Longmont, Colorado
****************************************************************************
                         (4,592 feet higher than Jeff Renner)




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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:07:26 -0500
From: Phil Wilcox <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Re:fanciful analogy language

I think i have to take point at what I think Pat and Steve are pokeing
at here. I would much rather get a scoresheet back with bunch of
"fanciful analogical language" than to get one back with 13 words, six
numbers and a signature. Which is how several of my Mead scoresheets
turned out from the AHA regional last year. They were horrible. I
learned nothing about my mead, and nothing of what this person thought
of my mead, other than the numbers totaled 46.  At least with fluffy
speech you get a general idea of what the person thought of your entry.

IMNSHO, quality judging is all about matching your tastebuds with your
vocabulary. The ability to discribe with good vocabulary is fundamental
in making a good score sheet. You need two things to be a great judge. A
well experienced and knowledgable palate and a vocabulary that lets
transfer that knowledge to the written page.

I'll take William Shakespeare over Marcel Marceau as a beer judge any
day!!!  ;<)

Phil Wilcox



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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:47:40 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Beer From Dirt Project

Jeff Renner mentions an attempt to make beer from dirt in Cincinnati.
Guilty as charged.  I can grow hops, I can malt barley and I suppose that I
could let the atmosphere of the Queen City of the West inoculate wort, but I
can't grow barley.  In seven attempts over seven years the very best we
could do was to sow two pounds of seed and harvest the most pathetic looking
1.5 pounds of what I assume to be barley seeds that should never be shown
any other seeds for fear of giving them a complex.

Maryanne Gruber of Briess Malting told me that the problem was that I was
trying to grow barley in the Ohio Valley which is evidently too humid.
Perhaps we could consider wheat beer . . . .

 Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com

Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!




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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:30:50 -0500
From: "Jeff Tonole" <jtonole at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: HB Song

So I was listening to this CD that my spouse somehow acquired when we
were living in Chicago. It's by Tautologic, a local band, and it includes
a song called "Jim's Home Brew." It's the first song I've ever heard
that's actually about the process of homebrewing.

The phrase "boil the mash" notwithstanding, the lyrics tend to capture
the details pretty well. And anyone that can work "amylase,"
"precipitates," and "isomerize" into a song deserves some props.

Here's a link to the lyrics:

http://www.tautologic.com/songs/lyrics.html#jimshomebrew

You can also listen to the last half of the song here:

http://www.tautologic.com/audio/wineis/JimsHome.ram

(Unfortunately, most of this snippet is instrumental, but it includes
the last verse.)

Cheers!

jeff tonole
SlothBrew -- one of the seven deadly sins
Ithaca, NY

Celebrating 10 years as a homebrewer this weekend by brewing up
a parti-gyle batch of Imperial stout/oatmeal stout!



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Date: 08 Feb 2002 16:04:51 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: False Bottoms /  B*b Kl**n

>> Joel Plutchak writes:

JP>    I dropped a few hundred dollars[*] on some new brewing equipment,
JP> including one of those spiffy stainless mash/lauter pots with
JP> welded spigot, thermometer well, etc.  The perforated SS false
JP> bottom that comes with it has just a bit of space between the
JP> edges and the wall of the pot when installed.  Does anybody who
JP> has one of these notice a problem with grain getting underneath
JP> and causing problems during lautering?  Any other tips for using
JP> one of these things before I jump in and use it for the first time
JP> (Monday, brewing a Tripel)?

Get some Tygon tubing, generally 1/8" ID and thin wall.  Slit it down
the center and put over edge of false bottom.

dion
- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen


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