---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Mash PH/ Water Analysis ("Greg Collins")
  RE:  Tubing - Moving Brews, Where are you? (Bill Tobler)
  Re : Tubing - Moving Brews (FRASERJ)
  Fermentation observations ("Neitzke, Arnold")
  souring beer (Marc Sedam)
  Dry yeast; software ("Drew Avis")
  old brown ("Peter Fantasia")
  Maple Sap Beer ("Dan Listermann")
  All Extract Beers - Poor Attenuation ("Dan Listermann")
  Re Beer styles (Guido Deboeck)
  Kegging at 7000' ("Bates, Floyd G")
  re: Starkbierfest (Rama Roberts)
  Maple Sap for brewing water ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Golden Promise ("RYAN WILLIS")
  maple and other saps ("Dr. Pivo")
  yeast torture ("Dr. Pivo")
  Homebrew Fridge ("Michael O'Donnell")
  RE: maple sap....in place of water : will the grain convert? ("Jonathan Royce")
  P.S. ("Jonathan Royce")
  Fast and warm lager fermentation (widmayer)
  Diacetyl problem in a Dopplebock (Walter J Doherty)


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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:32:23 -0500
From: "Greg Collins" <gmc at setel.com>
Subject: Re: Mash PH/ Water Analysis

Thanks for the input guys. It's always good to hear from John and I'm not
sure how to take being labeled notorious by Marc. But I guess if "notorious"
helps me solve my brewing problems, then so be it. As a matter of fact at
this point you can call me about anything you want as long as you bring a
few good suggestions about how to get rid of this bitter taste.

I'm going to attempt to push this bitterness issue a little further. There
has been similar posts to this same problem without much mentioned about
causes or cures. I wish that I had saved the links as I searched the
archives, but I'm not about to sort back thru. I remember seeing about three
that described this same condition that I am talking about. And for the sake
of not being clear in my previous post, I'll run this by again. This
bitterness I'm talking about is not astringent. It's a jaw-locking, harsh
flavor that has nothing to do with the mouth puckering, dry, grape peeling
taste that is characteristic of astringent off flavors. Now how's that for
creative taste descriptions? I didn't really see anything that specifically
nailed down just exactly what this is and how to cure it.

This beer is cosmetically fine. It's clear, no ring at the top of the
bottle, doesn't foam when opened.  To me the taste is more characteristic of
some kind of chemical rather than bacterial. Maybe I'm leaving some
sanitizer behind somewhere....

There was a request for some additional information on ingredients and
general process, so here that is:

- -- Pellet Hops (Normal schedule, no FWH)
- -- 10 gallon batches
- -- Sparge (1qt./min.)
- -- Final Gravity (1.008)
- -- Sanitizer (Clorox/ Iodophor)

Also, there was no comment on the mash ph of 4.9 that I mentioned. Is it
fair to assume that this range is ok? What are the off flavors contributed
to a mash ph that is off the mark? In addition,  what I am seeing on the ph
test strip (4.9) doesn't seem to match the calculated ph range given the
mineral content of the water. It does seem a little confusing with the
comments on my water report, which BTW way was pretty awesome and if there's
any venture capitalist out there willing to invest in a bottled water
company just let me know... :] I guess it's safe to rule out water as a
problem now.

Well I'd say that's about enough out of me for awhile.

 Any comments or suggestions is always appreciated.

Thanks guys....

gmc
Black Hills
Eastern Kentucky

"I still think that "notorious" is better than "infamous".




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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:55:36 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE:  Tubing - Moving Brews, Where are you?



Michael R. Roesch wrote:

"As another person has posted, Moving brews appears to be "shut down"
and not responding to e-mails.  Does anyone have an alternate source
for the high temp Norpene tubing (that does not require a roll purchase)?"


US Plastic Corp has that stuff.  10 foot minumn.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&catego
ry%5Fname=General+Tubing&product%5Fid=Norprene+Food+Process+Tubing

You may have to put that all in one line.  Their home page is

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.asp

Just start searching for tubing.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:00:52 -0500
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: Re : Tubing - Moving Brews

Try www.mcmaster.com, they have a great range and sell by the foot.  Do a
search for Norprene.

John M. Fraser
http://rims-brewing.tripod.com/




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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:19:42 -0500
From: "Neitzke, Arnold" <Arnold.Neitzke at fanucrobotics.com>
Subject: Fermentation observations

Hello everyone

I would like to know if anyone else has observed the following fermentation
characteristics.

Yeast in use for these batches = East Coast Ale (WLP008)

Batch #1 OG 1.065 mostly from pils malt, the yeast was stepped up to about
four time the amount that came in the "pitchable tube".  Fermentation
started about 6 hours later and had a nice 2 inch krausen.  24 hours after
that it plugged my air lock and when I removed the airlock it went
"pwooosh"!  Moments later, the krausen was shooting out the top of the
carboy and down the side of the fermenter.  A day later and it settled back
down enough, I could take the blowoff tube out and put an airlock back on.

A week later I needed to move it out if the carboy, even though it was still
working.  I move it to a corny (smaller footprint) and saved the yeast and
some beer into a quart mason jar, that I stuck out-of-sight in the back of
the fridge.

Batch #2 OG 1.045 mostly pils and some roasted barley, pulled the jar of
yeast from the fridge, only to discover that it was *still* fermenting! (two
weeks in the fridge too!)  It had a nice tight krausen and clear beer on top
of the yeast, when I place it on the counter top to warm up for its next
duty.  I estimate that I had about 100 times the yeast of the original
"tube" I bought.  During the next several hours the clear beer turned opaque
and a new krausen was pushing up the old krausen.  (I guess the cold didn't
phase it a bit!)

I pitched this into the wort and put a airlock on it.  Since I knew that it
tended to be very active, I keep a close eye on it, expecting it to crawl
out again at some point.  Two hours later I had positive air lock even
though the wort was still cooling from about 72 down to the final 66 it is
fermenting at right now.  Guess what?  4 days later and it has a nice 2 inch
krausen and hasn't even tried to crawl out (it would have by now).

Does higher gravity and lower yeast pitch, cause a greater activity in the
fermentation?

Has anybody else observed activity like this?

Arnold Neitzke
Brighton, Mi  (just north of CAP Capital)


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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:44:17 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: souring beer

The recipe listed was not an intentionally soured beer nor
did it have cherries.  I'm assuming you want to add both.

Cherries:  Check the archives for "cherry concentrate".
Someone posted the link within the last month, I'm sure.
I've been tempted to get this for some time.  Also, you're
within driving distance to A Southern Season in Chapel Hill
(http://www.southernseason.com).  They have dried fruits of
all kinds, including dried sour cherries.  Those work.

Souring:  To get a Guinness "tang" in my stouts I've soured
a quart of beer (leave it in a mason jar, add a handful of
grain, cover with cheesecloth, boil to sterilize before
adding back to fermenter) and that's just noticeable.  I
imagine you could easily sour a gallon of wort this way and
add it back to your beer until you get the right flavor.
Pressure can a gallon of wort and sour a quart at a time.
When you hit the right sourness just dump the rest of the
canned wort in the fermenter too.

Cheers!

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:06:44 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Dry yeast; software

Dr. Pivo graces us with a description of Saflager 189's ability to endure
more abuse than even the Swedish men's hockey team. I too have been playing
with dried lager yeasts, and have been very impressed with the results of
the DCL yeasts.  The first problem is where to get them?  The only place I
can find with a decent selection of DCL yeasts for homebrewers is Paddock
Wood - they have S23 and S04 in the standard 11gr pack, and S189, S34/70
(not listed on the web site for some reason), and T58 (a weizen yeast) in
20gr (!!) packs.  My fridge is full of dried yeast after a recent order, but
so far I've only been able to use the S23 (in a maibock) and 34/70 (in the
possibly ruined RauchCAP).  The maibock is excellent, although the S23 is
more of a pilsner yeast, and would probably be better in a lower gravity
beer.  As for the RauchCAP - I plan to send a bottle to Brian Lundeen to
ensure it's not poisonous before I try it myself - maybe he'll be able to
comment on the flavour of this yeast.  Performance wise, it's very
"lager"-ish - fermented vigorously at temps ranging between 48-52F, and
continues to chug slowly away at 38F.

As for the query about brewing software that lets you search for recipes by
style - StrangeBrew lets you do this.

Cheers!
Drew Avis ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca





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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:20:54 -0500
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: old brown

David asks about converting what looks like a stout recipe into an old
brown. I don't think roasted barley has any place in an old brown. You don't
mention how much sour mash you plan to use but I've tried a few sour mashes
and their really is no substitute for the lactobacillus. My advice is to
overcome micophobia and get a good strain of lactobacillus from Wyeast.
Proper sanitizing technique kills lactobacillus just as effectively as any
other bug present in air, water, etc...

As far as recipe specs. check the AHA guidelines for Oud Bruin. They also
had a recipe in a recent Zymurgy.I was brewing a batch and had it in the
secondary when my son was walking by the fermentor with his bookbag and
bumped it. The house smelled really good for a few days. Never did get to
taste that sucker. Beer everywhere and one less carboy too.

Good Luck

Pete Fantasia in the Loverly Pine Barrens of Southern NJ  Home of the Jersey
Devil.


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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:27:09 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Maple Sap Beer

From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: maple sap....in place of water : will the grain convert?

I have made maple sap beer.  The sap is sugar and does not need any
conversion to ferment.  I used straight sap.  IIRC the only evidence of the
sap's presence was when I opened the fermenter to bottle.  It smelled great!
That was the end of the "maple experience" as far as I could tell.

I have toyed with finding a maple syrup producer and trying to buy sap that
is only partially concentrated and fermenting that.

 Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com

Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!




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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:53:59 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: All Extract Beers - Poor Attenuation

Subject: Final Gravity Problems with Extract Based Wheat Beer and 3068

It is my belief that many extracts are produced for the "can and  kilo"
market and are intentionally made with a high level of unfermentables
anticipating the use of sugar which would result in a reasonable final
gravity.  Since unfermentables are accumulative, beers produced with only
extract and no sugar will frequently have high final gravities.

In our store we stock two different bulk extracts.  Munton's Super Light and
United Canadian Maltings Light ( which is lighter than the Munton's).  The
Muntons usually has a low fermentability and we us it for a few heavy sweet
beer styles like mild ale.  The Canadian is much more fermentable and is
used for the dryer styles like pilsner.  For most beers we blend the two as
we have found that half and half is a good ratio for a lot of styles.  We
are also not afraid to use sugar to further reduce the final gravity in big
beers like barley wine.  Our bulk extract turns over fast enough that we are
not concerned with the extract twang that is produced by stale - frequently
canned - extract.

 Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com

Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!




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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:10:37 -0500
From: Guido Deboeck <gdeboeck at erols.com>
Subject: Re Beer styles

The BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program, Guide to Beer styles for
Home Brew Beer Competitions) defines some 26 beer style categories
(e,g, american lager, european pale lager etc) and within each 3 - 4
beer styles.

Does anyone know what this is based on?  Some BJCP categories are
tightly defined (e.g the stout  contains dry-, sweet-, oatmeal- and
foreign extra stout) however not all stouts are in this category
(e.g. russian imperial stout is under barley wines) or are very broad
(e.g. fruit beers, which can be based on almost any type of beer with
fruit added to it...)

Does anyone know about a more rigorous classification of beer styles?

Thanks in advance.
Guido

e:mail: gdeboeck at erols.com


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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:35:53 -0600
From: "Bates, Floyd G" <BatesFG at bp.com>
Subject: Kegging at 7000'

Can someone help me to figure out my tap system?  I understand the
methodology listed at http://kegman.net <http://kegman.net>  .  However,
this seems more applicable to sea level installations.  I have two
questions:

1.	Should I keg the beer under less pressure or more and use longer
beer lines?  Currently most of my beer is kegged at 12 psig.
2.	How would altitude affect the dispensing beer line size and length?
I am using Foxx Equip. Co.'s 3/16" beer line.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.




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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:14:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Starkbierfest

Chuck says:
Google search turned up tons of hits on Starkbierfest, almost all of
which are in German (big surprise).  Could somebody point me to an
English-language source for the various breweries' Starkbierfest
schedules? 

I can't help you with English websites, but check out Babel Fish:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
for translating the German sites to your native tongue.
It's not perfect, but you'll get the idea (and probably a good 
laugh while reading the broken English it'll produce.)

Rama Roberts
San Francisco bay area




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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:29:08 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: Maple Sap for brewing water

Having genetic ties to people crazy enough to make syrup (my parents),
allowed me the chance to offer sap as brewing water to my club, Niagara
Association of Homebrewers, a couple years back and a few members took me up
on the offer.

It worked ok, but had some problems. First off, the good news. Of interest
to all-grainers is that sap has some mineral content. I used to have a
reference (USDA manual on syrup production) that had specific concentration
data, but I must have returned it.  I seem to recall that sap is relatively
soft with nothing to prevent good beer being made from it.  If anyone's
seriously interested, I could probably find the data.

In addition to minerals, there's also sugar in sap (duh, that's what makes
it turn into syrup!), most as sucrose. Sugar ranges from 1 to 10 brix in
sap, with 2-2.5% being typical. Starting a beer with sucrose at 1.010 OG is
a lot of sugar and results in a thin, cidery beer. That's the first problem.

The second problem is that there is no color or maple flavor in maple sap.
The color and flavor comes from concentration by  boiling of the sap,
depending on the sugar content it gets concentrated 25-50 times.  So if you
try to make a maple porter, for instance, using maple sap you're not going
to taste _any_ maple in the beer.

The third problem that seemed to be common these beers was a never ending
fermentation.  They continued to ferment down even when they should have
been finished, including in the bottle which led to some gushing problems.
It was really strange and I have no idea why sap would cause such a problem.

Hopefully this helps. Please post back the results of your sap beer
experience when you're finished, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear.

Todd Snyder
Williamsville (Buffalo), NY

Darrell writes:
<Hey, I just found a source for some genuine maple sap....and was thinking:
could one use maple sap in place of water >



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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:57:18 
From: "RYAN WILLIS" <montanaredeye2 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Golden Promise

I just got Promash(insert legal stuff here)! It's a great program, very well 
done. I was wondering if anyone has the information about Golden Promise 
Scottish Malt. I have been using it in a few Beers over the last few months. 
Promash doesn't seem to have it listed. Privite email would be fine.

I would also like to thank everyone who writes to the digest. I have learned 
many things about all graining since I signed up to the HBD. Your Home Brew 
club (Central Oregon Brew Crew) just had a little Competition. We decided to 
do a extract batch, but we all had to use the same ingredients. But the 
procedure which we made the beer was different. It turned out to be a great 
competition. All the beers were very different.

Thanks again
Ryan Willis



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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:15:45 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: maple and other saps

 .Darrell (what's the "." for .Darrell?)) asks about using maple sap
instead of water in a brew.

I have used birch sap. Tapped some trees, and as I recall it came out at
1004 grav.  I boiled it down to 1009 (which is I think in the
neighborhood of maple sap, if any of my memory partitions are still in
tact).

I used this not only in place of the mash water, but even for the sparge
water (I "dilution" or "infusion" sparge).

No problems with the brewing or the attenuation.

It gave a slight woody tone to the final beer which almost everyone
seemed to enjoy.....

 .... everyone except a Czech friend of mind who was fully expecting one
of my
Czech style pilsners.

He just growled: "Stop experimenting."

some people just don't appreciate 'spurments.

Dr. Pivo



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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:44:12 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: yeast torture

Robin Griller asks about punishing S189.

My worst case warm was pitching straight onto a newly racked sludge.
Ambient was 13C and the stuff ripped off like a tornado.  Never measured
the inside, but was notably warmer than surroundings. 16-17C would
probably be a good minimal bet, and could of been a fair bit warmer

I thought it not important to measure at the time, as I was certain I
had an impending visit from "Aunt Ester".

It came out just as clean as always.

Other tortures.... dropping (reoxygenating) during ferment does NOT
create diacetyls as expected, but just seems to speed it along.

Crash chilling the primary towards the end (4C) as an attempt at
preserving diacetyls does not seem to make them apparent either (they
just never seem to get produced).

I have recently pitched at 5C, and then let it up a degree a day. It
just started rolling at 9C.

I think it well worth exploring the upper end on temp by somebody with
two fermenting temps (read <--- "traditional" and "absurd").

This could be a worthwhile yeast for people who don't have good access
to traditionally low lager fermenting temps.

Dr. Pivo



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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:53:44 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Homebrew Fridge

Jeff asked about the freezer size that people are using.

I have been thinking of trying to build my own brewery box out of Celotex 
or foam insulation and a small, dorm-room sized fridge.  I know that I have 
heard mention of such beasts before, but I'm not finding much definite on 
the web.  I am thinking of building a foam box with an external wood frame 
that can hold 4-6 cornys.  The refrigerator would mount into the side and 
be sealed as best I can manage with weatherstripping.  I suspect that I 
will want a small fan inside the box to keep the whole thing at uniform temp.

Has anyone tried something like this?  Will this put a huge strain on a 
small fridge and push my energy bill through the roof, or once it gets cold 
will it hold reasonably well (it will only get opened when I need to change 
kegs, after all) without burning much juice.

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Mike
monterey, ca



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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:12:40 -0500
From: "Jonathan Royce" <jtroyce at directvinternet.com>
Subject: RE: maple sap....in place of water : will the grain convert?

Darrell asked:
"Hey, I just found a source for some genuine maple sap....and was thinking:
could one use maple sap in place of water .... and would it convert the
malted barley...and would one even notice the difference?"

I'm a newbie to this list, as I just recently started homebrewing (first
batch will be bottled this weekend). However, I've been thinking about the
same thing as Darrell. I've found a bunch of recipes online by searching for
"maple homebrew", etc. The one I like best so far is here:

http://www.brewery.org/brewery/cm3/recs/07_65.html

What do people think of this one? I'm interested in trying it without the
syrup (just the sap), but I've got the same concern as Darrell--will it make
a difference? Another thought that I had was using sap in the brew, and if
the taste isn't really where I want it after fermentation, using syrup as my
priming sugar during bottling. Has anyone tried that idea? If so, how much
syrup did you use?

Much thanks. I think this is a hobby that will really keep me amused...
Jon Royce




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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:14:56 -0500
From: "Jonathan Royce" <jtroyce at directvinternet.com>
Subject: P.S.

In response to Jeff Renner's recommendation to Gary Snyder, I should tell
people that I am in Merrimack, NH (home of the Northeast's Anheuser-Busch
brewery).




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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:17:53 -0500
From: widmayer at chartermi.net
Subject: Fast and warm lager fermentation 

I've been extract brewing for a year and a half and just brewed my 
third batch of lager.  This time I used moravain pale DME and 
Gambrinus H-2 yeast strain from St. Pat's.  (First time I've used this 
I did a starter over 3 days and had a good 1/2 inch layer of slurry on 
the bottom of a gallon jug when it finished.  I brewed a few days later 
and poured off the bad beer from starter before pitching.  OG was 
1.056.  I oxygenated the wort pretty heavily, pitched at room temp 
and let it sit over night at room temp to get started.  8 hours later it 
had a 6 inch layer of krausen and was cranking away at full tilt.  I put 
it into the fridge that morning.  By that night (24 hrs), it was cooled 
down to only 65 F and by this morning (36 hours from pitching) it 
was down to 60.  Tonight (48 hrs from pitching) it's at 55 F, gravity is 
down to 1.016 and activity has slowed to almost nothing visible, and 
I haven't even gotten it down to the 50 F I had hoped to do the 
primary fermentation at!  I guess I should have cooled it down faster 
or even started it cold.  Anyway, I guess I've brewed a lager at ale 
temperatures, more or less.  

At this point, I intend to take it down to 50 F and leave it in the 
primary for at least another week, and then I guess do a diacetyl 
rest, followed by lagering in secondary.  Does anyone have any  
suggestions re: whether this is the best course, or other ideas about 
how to get the cleanest lager style out of this batch?

Warren Widmayer


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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:16:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Walter J Doherty <wjd at U.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Diacetyl problem in a Dopplebock

Hello collective,

I'm lagering a dopplebock that I brewed a few months ago in fridge here
and I tasted it just recently.  It's been lagering for about 3 weeks and
it's pretty good, except a noticeable buttery feel = diacetyl.  It didn't
have this when I racked it from primary to secondary.  However, I didn'e
have my CO2 system at that point and so the secondary was not purged with
CO2 prior to racking.

Here's what I think happened:  The beer was slightly oxidized while
racking into the secondary fermentor.  This gave the yeast some
opportunity for diacetyl creation.

After secondary fermentation, I racked the bock into a Corny keg and put
in in the fridge dropping the temp a few degrees per day (the keg WAS
purged with CO2) until about 32F.  There it has sat for a few weeks.

My question is this:  Do you think the diacetyl will be reabsorbed by
yeast in the keg (of which I'm sure there is not a whole lot of) over the
duration of lagering, or should I prepare a krausening starter.  That is,
dump about a quart of actively fermenting lager yeast into the keg to
reabsorb the diacetyl.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the issue, private e-mails are OK, but I
wouldn't mind starting a lagering thread/discussion.

Thanks in advance,

Wally Doherty
Tucson, AZ





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