---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: beer tv special (Robert Marshall)
  2002 Maltose Falcons Mayfaire (Drew Beechum)
  Pre Fermentation Oxidization ("Phil Yates")
  Cap Report pt II ("Drew Avis")
  RE: Beer TV Special ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  propane fittings ("Chuck Dougherty")
  RE: malt sack volume? ("Houseman, David L")
  Breiss Roasted Barley in Stout (Lonzo McLaughlin)
  Grain storage ("Brian Schar")
  Update on Weizen Yeast from Bottle (Andrew Nix)
  Using pH test paper:  How???  plus water chemistry.... (Daniel Chisholm)
  Ashville NC area brewhouses and LHBS (Brad Wright)
  RE: malt sack volume? (Pat Babcock)
  Brew Stands ("Charles R. Stewart")
  zinc gluconate (Dave Kerr)
  Beer Tour of England ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  Entire Butt Porter (Steven S)
  Zymurgy correction ("Steve Alexander")
  Fruity Beer (Caryl Hornberger)


* Visit the George Fix Memorial Guest Book 
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*
* Maltose Falcons 2002 Mayfaire Competition 
* Entries accepted 4/1/02 - 4/11/02
* http://www.maltosefalcons.com for details
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* See http://www.hbd.org/mcab for more info
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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:22:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Marshall <robertjm1 at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: beer tv special

Well, I just went to the Alton Brown
 website ad they have it listed
 as being on tonight.

Glad I didn't bother tuning in!

Here's the URL:
http://www.altonbrown.com/pages/asseentv.html




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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 01:10:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Drew Beechum <Drew.Beechum at disney.com>
Subject: 2002 Maltose Falcons Mayfaire



Fellow Brewers,

The Maltose Falcons' Mayfaire returns for the (approximately) 18th
year and once again we are one of the qualifying competitions for the
Sierra Nevada Homebrewer of the year. 

This year's guidelines have been updated and are available on our
website.

Entries may be registered on line or you may use standard bottle
labels. All standard competition rules apply. 

All entries are welcome and all judges are free to join us.

- -- Drew Beechum

- -----------------------
2002 Mayfaire Homebrew Competition (AHA and BJCP Sanctioned)

Qualifier for Sierra Nevada Homebrewer Of The Year

Pre-register and information at http://www.maltosefalcons.com/

Entry Deadline: Entries (3 Bottles) April 1st - April 11th, 2002

Entry Fee: $6.00 per entry, check or money order only, 
 payable to the Maltose Falcons. No Cash will be accepted!

Drop or send prepaid entries (3 Bottles) to:

2002 Mayfaire Competition c/o 
The Home Wine, Beer and Cheese Making Shop
22836 Ventura Blvd. #2
Woodland Hills, CA 91364
OR :
2002 Mayfaire Competition c/o
Culver City Home Brewing Supply
4358 1/2 Sepulveda Blvd
Culver City, CA 90230

Styles: Please use the 2002 Falcons' Style Guidelines available on our
site.

Judging: Saturday, April 27, 2002, St Martins Church, Reseda, CA

Awards Ceremony: At the Falcons' Mayfaire Festival, Saturday, May 18,



Best of Show: "The Bird," a statuette of the Maltose Falcon "Hashell
Dammit" First, Second, and Third Place ribbons may be awarded in each
beer style Class, Subject to the decisions of the judges. All judges
decisions are final.


For further information, or entry forms, contact Drew Beechum,
Competition Organizer Email: drewbage1847 at yahoo.com

Want to Judge? Contact Bruce Brode at bruceb at cpandb.com

Want to Steward? (It's easier than judging!) 
     Contact Pam Aitchison (pam at aitchison.org)



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:35:27 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Pre Fermentation Oxidization

Okay, where is everybody?
The only person to pipe up and give me an answer about the moisture content
of bottled CO2 was the devil from the north himself, Mr Graham Sanders. This
he did off line. After his public berating he has decided to now live under
a rock. At least the crocs aren't likely to find him there.

I reckon I should be able to command a fee for being the only person on
earth who can shut Graham up. Bit like a bounty hunter. Given my perilous
employment situation, I might just start asking money for my talents where
once I delighted in offering them for nothing.

But enough of this, I have another question. We have argued in here to the
death about whether or not HSA existed, or more to the point, whether or not
it mattered. I'm sure we all agree that oxidization of our beer post
fermentation is a serious no no. But I'm curious about this point:
 Most of us go out of our way to get as much oxygen as we can into our wort
just prior to dumping in our yeast. What happens if we don't dump in our
yeast, or not immediately?
What happens if we run our wort from the kettle, heavily aerate it and put
it in a sealed container free from infection? What happens if we leave it
there for a good month before throwing in our yeast?

My bet would be that the end product would have serious oxidization
flavours. Whilst talking about oxidization flavours, it's interesting to
note that the Oxford Dictionary (well at least the one I have) makes mention
of "make or become rusty" in its description of the word oxidize.

Now I reckon that is a very good description of resulting oxidization
flavours in beer. Rusty or metallic.

I was waiting for Steve Alexander to produce his new Beer Dictionary to see
how he described it, but I reckon the Oxford has taken the wind out of his
sails.

Comments please? And I'm looking for answers from people who live other than
under a rock. I will though accept answers from the guy under the rock if he
wants to make comment.

Cheers
Phil



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:30:19 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Cap Report pt II

Brewers, two months ago I reported on my disastrous CAP brew session
(http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3845.html).  Last weekend I kegged the RauchCAP,
and last night I poured a glass.  And a second!  It was not just bearable
and non-toxic - it was actually *good*.  Only a distant hint of smoke,
barely perceceptable, and no kitty litter flavour or aroma to speak of.  The
grain bill is not typical, but certainly CAP-ish (15% polenta, 10% wheat,
75% two row) and with a definite "corny" character (perhaps it's just the
keg).  30 IBUs from Cascade & Ultra.  To be honest, it's lighter and more
"swill-like" than what I'm used to, but I can get used to it!

This beer was brewed with a DCL dried lager yeast: 34/70.  It is not listed
on the DCL web site, but is listed on the Crosby-Baker site (stuck at the
say much, eh?  I find it to be very clean, almost watery, no diacetyl, no
sulfur.  What I'm amazed at is the lack of off-flavours from racking (by
accident) into a filthy carboy.  20 grams seems to have been enough to
out-ferment the nasties that were certainly there in droves.  And with a
standard lager fermentation schedule it achieved excellent attenuation (OG
1.055, FG 1.010).

A single datapoint, but enough to convince me that 34/70 is worth using
again.

Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca


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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:34:38 -0800
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: RE: Beer TV Special

In HBD #3889 Eric R Lande gets rude & mean in his response: 

>I watched the Good Eats show tonight (with a couple of Double Bocks) at
>9pm Eastern time (which for those of you in trailer parks whom this show
>was aimed at coincides with 6pm Pacific time) and it had less than
>nothing to do with beer.  The title of the show was something like "Chuck
>for Chuck" and featured Alton Brown making a pot roast in a trailer
>(complete with aluminum foil satalite dish) in a trailer park.  Now,
>while I have nothing against trailer parks, I had guests over to watch
>the beer/brewing episode and, guess what, it never happened.  In fact, I
>can't even find a show with that name any where on the schedule on the
>FoodTv. com web site.  Thanks Nils!  Let me know when Mickey Mouse is
>going to the moon.
>Eric Lande
>Doylestown, PA

Eric,
  I am quite shocked by the tone of your response.  I am barely containing
my anger.  You may have been joking, but it certainly didn't seem like it.
If you were, you need to do a better job at indicating it in the future.  I
too was disappointed that Good Eats last night was a rerun from Season 4.
But, since you looked for the episode on FoodTV.Com, I'm sure you noticed it
only shows the Good Eats schedule for less than a week at a time.  So, you
should have been able to extrapolated that I got my information from some
other source since I posted my original message about a month ago.  Here's
where the information came from:
http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/EpisodeInfo/Season5Info.htm.  At the bottom
of the page is the information on the beer episode.  In the time it took you
to write your "response", you could have posted a message on the Good Eats
Fan Forum to see if anyone else knew when the episode was going to be aired.
Or maybe done a web search & found either the website listed above, or the
AltonBrown.Com website where the beer episode is listed in his Season 5
shows (none of the shows have airdates though).  The HomeBrew Digest is
inappropriate for this type of personal attack.  I would have been happy to
respond to your issues directly if you had the courtesy to send your message
to me only.  But instead you decided to not only respond in a mean-spirited
message, but post it to a public forum, so I feel obligated to defend
myself.  It's unfortunate that this ruined your gathering, but at least it
gave you the opportunity to get together with friend & drink beer.  If you
were planning a whole gathering around this episode, you might have wanted
to verify when it was going to  be on.
  I apologize to anyone else that my information may have inconvenienced.  I
have posted messages on various Good Eats sites to determine when the
episode will be aired and may post an update if I find out when it is.
Thank you,
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA

PS-By the way, as evidenced by these following links, Mickey has already
been to the moon.
http://www.collectorsconnection.com/images1/mickey28.jpg
http://www.art.com/asp/sp.asp?PD=10005358&RFID=463353



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:03:58 -0600
From: "Chuck Dougherty" <jdougherty at wlj.com>
Subject: propane fittings

Greetings all--

My brewing system includes two burners (turkey fryer type), which I have
up until now ran from two separate propane tanks using the
hose/high-pressure regulator that came with each burner.  I would really
like to hook both burners up to a single tank, but don't know what
fitting(s) I need.  I know many of you have crossed this bridge before,
and was hoping someone could tell me what I need and where I can buy it.
Thanks in advance.

Chuck Dougherty
Little Rock, AR
[694.8, 224.6] Rennerian (Apparent)



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:55:50 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: malt sack volume?

Bill Tobler spent $35.80 for a 13 gal container to hold grain; somewhat less
since he bought four.  I spent $5.80 for 13 (maybe 15) gallon rubbermaid
containers and lids at K-Mart.  Each holds a great deal more grain than one
55lb sack; probably at least two.  They were on sale but the regular price
was not a whole lot more.  But then they only had them in green...  Do check
out K-Mart, Target, Wal-Mart, etc. as these stores seem to have all sorts of
useful stuff for brewing that were intended for other things...

Dave Houseman



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:46:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Lonzo McLaughlin <lonkelm at yahoo.com>
Subject: Breiss Roasted Barley in Stout

Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com writes .....

 -Briess' "roasted barley" is NOT the grain you want to
 -use when making a stout... 

 -Briess' roasted barley is indeed heavily roasted, but
 -if you use a pound of it in a 5 gallon batch you'll
 -roasty-bitter-acidic beer (this might sound good, but
 -I didn't care for it - unfortunately I made two
 -batches of it before I discovered the culprit).  Just
 -off the top of my head, I think Briess' roasted
barley
 -is around 300L, and the "real" roasted barleys are
 -over 500L.



This has been my primary roasted barley for the stouts
I've
made over the last couple of years.  What other
roasted barley does this forum recommend?  I've too
noticed a very acidic taste with this barley.  On
beers with less amounts in the grain bill it isn't soo
bad but with a Dry Stout it can be a taste that is not
liked.

Please suggest some readily available roasted barleys
that make a good dry stout.



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:25:06 -0800
From: "Brian Schar" <schar at vimedical.com>
Subject: Grain storage

At your local pet food store, you can get various sizes of a thing called a
Vittles Vault, which comes in a variety of sizes corresponding to big bags
of pet food.  It's made of heavy plastic & has a wide screw-on lid that
seats tightly.  I store cat food in one, and have never had a problem with
spoilage or insect infestation, even when faced with an ant invasion one
year that got into darn near everything else.  I would think you could store
grain in one of these pretty safely.

Brian Schar
Menlo Park, CA
Rennerian calculator is off-line!



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:53:38 -0500
From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu>
Subject: Update on Weizen Yeast from Bottle

In case anyone is interested, I wanted to post an update to my experiment 
in stepping up weizen yeast from a bottle.

First of all, I got great support from a company called MBI 
(Manneken-Brussel Imports, Inc) that imports Schneider Weisse, which is the 
beer I was trying to step the yeast up from.  I asked them about whether 
Schneider used bottom fermenting yeast in the bottle and they researched 
the info and got the info for me that they use the same top fermenting 
yeast in the bottle as in the primary.

As for the starter.  It sat for about 2-3 days without any activity at 
60F.  I put about a quart of 1.045 wort on it.  I left for the weekend and 
when I returned it had a small layer of krausen.  I swirled the bottle and 
it went ape and a layer of foam and krausen almost 2" thick formed.  It's 
been going pretty strong for the last few days and smells wonderful.  I 
even asked my wife to smell it and tell me what it smelled like.  Her 
response was "It smells like bananas."  "Good answer," I said.

I am going to take the safe route though and brew a 13 gallon batch of 
wheat beer using single decoction.  I will pitch White Labs Hefe IV on 5 
gallons, a buddy is pitching a wit yeast on 5 gallons and I'll pitch the 
stepped up Schneider Weisse on 3 gallons, in case it turns out bad (I'm a 
wuss).  I'll report the results.

Drewmeister
Andrew Nix
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
anix at vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:04:02 -0400
From: Daniel Chisholm <dmc at nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Using pH test paper:  How???  plus water chemistry....

So I finally got some pH test paper, and figured that it might improve
my brewing.  It seems like I can't figure out how to get a decent
reading with the stuff (!).  Either that or my water chemsistry is
pathological...

I have Precision Labs Inc (of West Chester, OH 45069) test strips, part
no. 4662, for testing pH range 4.6-6.2.  On the label inside the bottle
it says "for best results follow closely directions on carton".  Problem
#1: I only bought the vial of strips, I have not seen the carton it came
in.

The colour changes from 4.6 to 6.2 are subtle, to say the least. 
Approximately a light tan at 4.6 to a medium brown at 6.2.  To a guy who
feels that about sixteen colours is all one really need to get through
life with, and thinks that "taupe" is more likely to be a bird or a
plane than a colour, well you can probably see my problem....

First question: does pH paper care what temperature the liquid is at?  I
know that pH meters' half cells are temperature sensitive, and must
either be temperature compensated or have the sample at room
temperature.  Is this the case with the test paper's chemistry also?

Second question: my pH seemed to be stubbornly high for last night's
brew.  Untreated water read off the scale high (not surprising).  My
mash, made with untreated water, after half an hour also read high off
the scale (I think.  Or was it 6.2?  Could it be 5.8?  Certainly not
lower than that, but it could be anywhere from 5.8 to more than 6.2). 
Adding 8 grams of CaCl2 to the mash and stirring valiantly yielded....
no change.  Adding 1/4 tsp 10% phosphoric acid yielded.... no change. 
Adding 1 tsp. 88 % lactic acid yielded.... no change.  Mash consisted of
9 kg Canada Malting 2-row, and 20 litres water.  This morning the sweet
wort measured perhaps 5.5, perhaps 5.5 (I ran out of time last night,
and set the wort outside to cool).  I sure hope it drops at least one
notch after the brew.

What is my water chemistry, you ask?  Short answer is that I don't have
an analysis.  Long answer is this:  I'm guessing that it is very soft,
or at least of zero temporary hardness.  I base this on the observation
that there is no precipitation of CaCO3 when water is boiled.  Secondly,
the well that the water comes from is not very deep, and has enormous
capacity (>40 gpm).  I assume that this means it may be in a sand vein,
and perhaps therefore not have had the chance to dissolve many minerals.

Until I fork over the $80-$100 it will take to have a proper water
analysis done, I won't know for sure.  I did do a little stovetop
chemistry experiment, in which I boiled a saucepan of tap water plus a
"smidge" of powdered gypsum (from some drywall scrap, actually ;-). 
This seemed to give some precipitation - so I'm guessing I have some
carbonate present (I *think* I didn't overdo the gypsum and use more
than could be dissolved, but I cannot say for sure)

I've become increasingly suspicious that my mash and wort pH might be
too high (and so I jumped at the opportunity to buy some pH test strips
to use while I wait for a pH meter).  My efficiencies seem to
consistently be in the 65% area (I think all my procedures are good, yet
this seems low compared to what everyone else seems to be able to
achieve).  And my finishing gravities are almost always a bit higher
than they ought to be, especially with lager (Wyeast 2278) yeast (e.g. a
CAP from 1051 down to 1022).

Figuring that my water is very soft (because of the lack of boiling
deposits) I've all along been avoiding brewing a stout or porter until I
get a pH meter.  Now I figure that my next beer ought to be exactly one
of those - maybe they will be able to knock my pH paper readings down in
to the range I'm looking for?  I have some CaCO3 on hand, so providing
that the pH paper is actually working (or I figure out how to use it!!),
I should be fine.

I tried doing a web search for instructions on using pH paper, and also
looked for a web site for Precision Labs.  Quite surprisingly, I was
unable to turn up anything for either.

Thanks for any help that is offered,


- -- 
 - Daniel
Fredericton, NB  Canada


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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:54:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Brad Wright <ten_jed at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ashville NC area brewhouses and LHBS

Hey folks,

Can anyone suggest brewhouses or LHBS to go to in the
Ashville, Lake Lure, Boone area? I will be up there
and would like to check things out. Please respond
offlist.

Thanks
Brad



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:09:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: RE: malt sack volume?

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager..

Sorry - been focusing on other things lately (like keeping the
HBD server up... ;^)

I put one bag of grain into approximately two-and-a-half 5
gallon paint pails. Somewhere around 12-13 gallons would seem to
be the volume. (If I weren't so damned lazy, I'd go out and
weigh a gallon of grain for you. But I am :^)

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:11:56 -0500
From: "Charles R. Stewart" <Charles at TheStewarts.com>
Subject: Brew Stands

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Bjorn of Waterloo (Bjoern.Thegeby at cec.eu.int)inquired
about brew stand dimensions:

>> I am in the process of designing a brew stand, but am in short supply of
engineering friends. I have decided to go for a 2 1/2 tier system with
liquor tank low, mash tun on top, draining into a kettle at the "mezzanine"
level. If you did not get
that, it is the general design of the bigger "Beer, Beer and more Beer"
systems.  I have seen a number of systems on the web, but they seldom give
rack profile dimensions.

My gut feeling would be to go with square profiles for the risers and "L"
profiles for the horizontals framing the vessels (to keep them in place).
The bottom horizontal frame would be either square or rectangular, with two
fixed feet and two
vertically adjustable. The maximum width/length per vessel would be 22
inches.

I would like the system to be as light as possible, while capable of
carrying a load of 25 gallons+grain + weight of vessel. Am I total off track
here, and if not, what size profiles can I get away with?>>

Bjorn -

	While combing local scrapyards and drawing up elaborate plans for a three
tiered system myself, I stumbled into a rolling restaurant rack (see
http://www.costco.com/frameset.asp?trg=product%2Easp&catid=114&subid=858&hie
rid=1090&prdid=10002618&log= - you may have to paste the link back
together).  This turned out to be cheaper, easier, and probably better than
the units I was getting ready to build.  First, the unit is rated for 600
lb., more than enough for your 25 gal. batches.  The rack is also
re-configurable and can be re-arranged according to your needs.  It's also
easy to run tubing and wiring along the racks.  Also, since it is stored in
the house, it is much more acceptable to SWMBO as it is chrome plated and
can be wheeled out of sight.  I can also organize most of my brew gear on it
with plastic storage boxes to keep things tidy.  Finally, the wheels allow
me to roll the whole unit out the back door for fair-weather brewing.  You
can see it in use at http://Charles.TheStewarts.com.

Chip Stewart
Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Pursuant to United States Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II,
Section 227, any and all unsolicited commercial e-mail (spam) sent to this
address is subject to a download and archival fee of US$500.00.  The
sending or forwarding of such e-mail constitutes acceptance of these
terms.





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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:22:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Kerr <dave_kerr2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: zinc gluconate

Wouldn't chucking a couple of pennies into the kettle
serve the same purpose while preventing boilovers as well?



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:51:57 -0800
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Beer Tour of England

Hi all,
  In case anyone's interested, there's a beer tour of England on May 9-19.
You can get the information at:
http://www.beertrips.com/trips/london_york2002.html.  It sounds like a fun
trip & I've already got one good review of a previous trip from a HBD
member.
Thanks,
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA


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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:19:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Entire Butt Porter



I picked up a bottle of Entire Butt Porter the other day to try (along
with Catillion Lambic!) and not only does it have the grains used on the
side (14 of em!) but also is bottle conditioned. There is a substantial
yeast sediment at the bottom. I like the characteristics of this porter
and would like to harvest the yeast. Is the yeast in the bottle the same
yeast used for primary fermentation?



_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Steven St.Laurent  				403forbidden.net
steven at 403forbidden.net  			[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _






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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:17:58 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Zymurgy correction

Somehow the two figures referenced in my recent Zymurgy article "Boiling
Your Mash into a Decoction" (March/April 2002, pp42) did not appear - tho' a
mutant cross of the two did.  The correct figures can be found at:
    http://steve-alexander.home.att.net/  .
Apologies for any confusion.

 -Steve




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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:40:34 -0500
From: Caryl Hornberger <chornberger10 at comcast.net>
Subject: Fruity Beer

Anyone ever try adding cherry flavored "Juicy Juice" concentrate ( 100%
Juice of Apple, Grape, Cherry ) to their beer to give it a cherry flavor?  I
did and now my beer smells like bad rot.  I didn't boil the juice first, but
I did sterilize the outside lip of the can before pouring it in.

Caryl Hornberger

I just love wasting a full day's work.....



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