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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RIMS temperature control (Nate Wahl)
  Ancient temperature controls ("Greenly, Jeff")
  conical chilling (Lonzo McLaughlin)
  Kansas Homebrewers, keg bill (Rob Dewhirst)
  Re: Thanks and a few very Random Thoughts... (Jeff Renner)
  Re: LEAD IN BRASS FITTINGS (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Both a Wort Chiller and Portable Kegerator (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Berliner Weisse Advice and Question (mohrstrom)
  re: bifenthrin/hop poles ("Steve Alexander")
  water test/analysis (Philip DiFalco)
  Life, Death And Rice Lagers Without Rice ("Phil Yates")
  online beer (Daveandbetta930)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")


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Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 06:33:07 -0500
From: Nate Wahl <cruiser at cros.net>
Subject: RIMS temperature control

I've been working on a document describing how PID controllers work and
setting one up for homebrewing applications. It is still very much in
DRAFT form (nice, eh?), so warnings/YMMV, etc., but since the subject
has come up again, I'd like to get it out there and get some feedback on
it.

I'm also going to have the I&C people at work take a look at it to make
sure it is good technically.

I'll then update it to a final form and repost.

The document is located at:
http://www.cros.net/cruiser/pid_info.doc

Anybody that can help me with comments, please do so, even if its from a
non-techie perspective.

Regards,
Nate Wahl aka Oogie Wa Wa (which is a phonetic pronunciation of an old
Zulu drinking salutation, akin to Prost or Cheers!)


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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 06:51:47 -0500 
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Ancient temperature controls

Mr. Alexander's comments jogged my memory regarding an answer to RJ's
question about how brewers were able to manage temp control back before the
thermometer was invented. As history is a favorite subject of mine, and
brewing history doubly so, I remember reading recently that the ancient
brewmaster would watch the surface of the liquor as it was heated and
determine the best time for infusion based on its appearance. This technique
is apparently still used by some of the more archaic brewers in Europe. Just
a tidbit of random trivia... 

Jeff
Mountain Peoples' Brewing
Rennarian Coordinates Unknown. I seldom know where I am. 
- ------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 05:53:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Lonzo McLaughlin <lonkelm at yahoo.com>
Subject: conical chilling

I've made the decision to delay the purchase of a
conical fermentor, and instead work on chilling my
existing carboy's with the hope the system can be
easily be converted to the conical at a later date.

I'm considering using my beer fridge as the cooling
machine.  It seems a simple glycol loop into the
freezer with a small pump and temperature controller
should work well.  Here are some thoughts, I'd like to
hear some other ideas.

1.  I was thinking of getting a small automobile
radiator and placing it in the freezer as the way to
extract heat from the refrigerator.  One could use
glycol inside the radiator.

The only other idea I see people doing is a large
resivoir of coolant in a keg or such.  Which method
might work best?  What is the typical BTU capability
of a small fridge?

2.  What type of small pumps would work for
circulating the glycol?





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Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:37:27 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Kansas Homebrewers, keg bill 


Kansas Homebrewers,

Last week, the Kansas Legislature passed bill SB407, which requires retail
kegs to be tagged and tracked.

"Blue law" issues aside, this bill contains wording general enough to raise
more than an eyebrow of concern for Kansas homebrewers.

The bill makes it a misdemeanor to have in your possession a retail beer keg
(a beer container over 4 gallons) without a state ID tag.  It further makes
it illegal to deface a retail container and remove the tag.

While homebrew beer kegs are clearly not the target of the legislation, more
than a minor inconvenience from homebrewers could result from its passing.

I've summarized the issues to date at:

<http://hairydogbrewery.com/articles/kegbill/>

I encourage everyone to write Governor Graves and express your concerns.

<http://www.accesskansas.org/governor/contact.html>

(These aren't just sanke kegs we're worried about. At least one brewery in
the state sells beer in 5 gallon ball lock corney kegs.)



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Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:35:25 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks and a few very Random Thoughts...

Kevin Elsken <k.elsken at worldnet.att.net> writes from North Strabane, 
PA of his trip through a Heathrow pub:

>I started with the Courage Bitter.  It was hand pumped (good sign!) and
>had a nice medium dark copper color.  Now, I thought I drank warm beer.
>I was unprepared for how warm this beer was! I usually set my beer
>fridge to 50 or 55 degrees F, but this had to be at least 65 degrees.
>Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, it was just a bit of a shock.
>The beer was good.  I am not a good beer judge, as my palate has been
>spoilt by too many years of pipe smoking.  Still, the flavor of the
>courage was maybe just a bit less than I had hoped for.  Don't get me
>wrong, it beats the pants off BudMillerCoors, but it was still somewhat
>less than Nirvana.

Kevin

I suspect that they foisted off the first pint of the day on you.  it 
had been sitting in the lines overnight, or at least for some hours. 
That would explain the temperature and perhaps the disappointed 
flavor as well.

This happened to me in England three years ago.  We were visiting 
friends who are members of CAMRA and who took the week off to host 
us.  We went to several pubs a day with them, all great ones that 
they were familiar with, but I decided that I needed more.  So one 
afternoon while our hosts ran some errands and my wife took a break, 
I walked to two of the pubs in their village in Essex.

Now there are four pubs in this village, and our friends don't 
frequent any of them, choosing instead to drive several miles to one 
of their two choices for a local.  I thought this was puzzling since 
all four have real ale on hand pump.  But two of the pubs are 
national chains, and they don't care for how the beers are kept in 
any of the four.  There's more to good real ale than just how it 
leaves the brewery, and more to a good pub than just the beer.

Well, I went to the nearest pub.  The place was deserted as it had 
just reopened after the typical afternoon closure from 2-4PM.  They 
had Fuller's London Pride on tap, which I hadn't had yet.  I ordered 
a pint and sat down.  It was warm!  But I was in a spot.  A Yank 
can't go up to a British publican and complain that his beer is warm. 
He'd laugh at you and tell you he's got Bud in bottles in the fridge. 
But I know what had happened.  That beer had sat in the line for two 
hours since lunch and since it was not a pub that cared about their 
beer or their customers, I guess, they didn't throw out the first 
pint.  I was stuck with it.

The next pub down the street at least had cooler beer a half hour 
later, but still not great, and some company.  I struck up a 
conversation with a local and enjoyed my second pint more than the 
first before heading back to the house to rest up before our dinner 
excursion to more pubs.  But our hosts were right.  The local pubs 
didn't treat their beer well.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:49:21 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: LEAD IN BRASS FITTINGS

"George Krafcisin" <gkrafcisin at mindspring.com> writes from Glencoe, IL:

>(developing brains are more
>susceptible to damage, and mine are about shot anyway)

Well, at least it sounds like you have a spare.  Lucky.  I'm stuck 
with just the original issue.  ;-)

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:32:47 -0500 
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Both a Wort Chiller and Portable Kegerator

Bill Lacross asked about homemade beer chillers.

I made a jockey box using copper coils. I have 3 taps, and on two of them I
used 25 feet of 1/4"OD refrigeration tubing. On the other I used 15 feet. It
works great! The 15 ft section is used for English type ales that you want
around 50-55F, and the others for 40-45F. It is all mounted on a cart that
will contain 3 kegs, my 20lb co2 bottle, with the jockeybox on top. It's got
two lawnmower wheels, and I can cart it around like a hand truck. It is
indispensible for our annual campout.



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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:24:08 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Berliner Weisse Advice and Question

Eric Jacobs tries his hand at an outstanding beer style:

> A couple weeks ago, I made my first attempt at a Berliner
> Weiss... and it's got a pretty high DMS level. ... other
> than the DMS, this beer is pretty promising.  If anyone
> has thought about attempting a no-boil Berliner Weiss

 ... don't.  This is the ultimate drawback of that method: too much time
spent creating DMS precursors.  A short (20min), open boil , followed by a
quick run through the chiller, should drive off the DMS, and still give an
acceptably light color to the end product.

> I'm definitely going to give it another try, and just
> use a low-temp (100F) souring rest.

My usual method, and the source of my question.  Usually, I let the
doughed-in grain rest at ~100degF in the oven for 36 hours, or until the
dog won't go near the kitchen for the odor.  My last two attempts, although
reeking appropriately, failed to convert in the tun.  I am currently using
Durst Pilsner malt, and believe that my last - successful - batch was made
from MFB Pilsner.  Do the French enzymes have a little more stamina than
their German neighbo(u)rs?  Maybe some amalyse enzyme additive would help?


Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:56:22 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: bifenthrin/hop poles

Al Klein quips ....

>The insects that survived this year's chemical will produce offspring
>next year that are immune to that chemical.

Lamarkianism is alive and well !   No.  It takes many generations of
consistent exposure to select a resistant population.   It's not the
offspring of last years survivors from a small plot.

>Changing chemicals
>insures a better kill, even if it's just changing between 2 or 3
>choices.

"Just changing between 2 or 3 choices" is a *LOT* as there are only 4
distinct chemical insecticide classes approved for vegetable crops
(pyrethroids, carbamates, organochlorines and organophosphates) and the
"better kill" typically requires switching between these few classes.   Yes
there is advantage in switching insecticide classes re effectiveness, but
the disadvantage is that the home gardener is exposed to the combined risks
of all of the insecticides used.

   Remember the goal is clean crops and a healthy brewer/gardener - not dead
insects.  The 'MAD' principle does not apply.

>> does anyone have any clever (cheap) ideas in tall hops poles for my
>>garden ?
>
>Bamboo?  Or a short pole and a long string?

So there's a source of cheap strong 20ft long bamboo poles that won't rot
out  ?  A short pole and a long string for a row of 25-40 ft long bines  at 
maybe 25lbs each - you're kidding.   I love the brevity of your answers Al,
but the content could use more thud.

==

I received 5 very good practical ideas for hop trellis' made from commonly
available pipe, conduit &  lumber.   C.D.Pritchard's design of joined 3/4"
electrical conduit sections (20') in a trigonal arrangement would (with a
little adaptation) serve my purposes best.

 -Steve




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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:14:39 -0500 
From: Philip DiFalco <pdifalco at qedrx.com>
Subject: water test/analysis


I live in Great Falls, VA., and my house has well water.

Where would I go to get a sample of my water tested (or analyzed),
to reveal its mineral/chemical composition?

Is such a water analysis expensive?

Thanks,
Phil


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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:17:11 +1000
From: "Phil Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Life, Death And Rice Lagers Without Rice

>From Steve's post:

Phil writes ...
>I can only say it doesn't seem to cause any problems in my beer.
Then you are set - don't bother reading the rest of the post.

But I did read the rest of Steve's post. I usually always do. I think Steve
makes a huge contribution with his vigilant updating of information as it
comes to hand. We should all appreciate that he takes the time to pass this
information on to us.

I liked his comments:

>If you start thinking about it kegged HB flavor is >constantly evolving.
At first it's a bit green and maybe >yeasty, then tastes mature and fresh
and
>hopefully clean, then the better parts of the hops >aroma/flavor eventually
>fade and the freshness is less apparent.

Yes I liked these comments very much. What Steve is saying is that we are
dealing with a live and changing creation which we proudly (and sometimes
not so proudly) call our beer. It is not a dead commercial sample sitting in
a bottle waiting to be sold. It is not static. It is alive and constantly
changing. It is a painting upon which the paint never dries. The colours
grow bright then fade.

And no doubt, somewhere near the end of it's life, it tastes like cardboard
and maybe even smells like Ray's bottle of skunk oil. Like Marilyn, all
living things (beautiful or otherwise) eventually end up rotting in the bog.

As Steve suggests, if you are happy with your brewing techniques, if you are
happy you are not committing your beer to an early visit to Marilyn's bog,
move on.

I'm moving backwards at the moment. I'm thinking about beta-glucans and
beta-glucanase enzymes and low temp mash rests. I have a malt I'm working
with which offers enormous scope in this area. Using this malt, I'm almost
confident I could produce a rice lager without even adding the rice. This
might seem like a very strange thing to say, given that adding rice would
normally be considered a cheaper way of making beer. But Jeff Renner and I
both know there is a lot more to cereal adjuncts than saving dollars.
Anyway, I hope to report more on this later.

Cheers
Phil



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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:22:23 EST
From: Daveandbetta930 at cs.com
Subject: online beer

Tray writes:

>Where can I buy beer online? I would like to sample different types and
>styles. I have a very limited selection locally. I want to sample different
>styles, types to help me in my home brewing.

I'm not sure you can do that anymore. I work for UPS but its been a few years 
since I've been in the delivery part of it. Too many under age drinkers were 
getting the stuff. I do know we only ship alcoholic beverages to, from, or 
within specific states. You might want to check to see if you live in one of 
those states at www.ups.com








                                                                              
                                        


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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:05:35 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report

CCF's...
     Lynne asks about CCF's and racking arms....and others have followed
with their observations...
     Personally, any stainless, (and it would be stainless) CCF I would use
for home fermenting would have standard 1.5" TC fittings butt welded to the
bottom and side of the cone for dropping yeast and racking respectively.
     A 1.5" TC butterfly valve would be clamped to a 45 degree stainless
elbow, TC clamp fittings on both ends of the 'el'...which would then be
clamped to the bottom fitting of the vessel, such that the butterfly would
be the lowest part.
      at  this point it's probably a good idea to remind everyone that 1" and
1." TC fittings are compatible, as the clamping and gasketing are all
1.5"....the inner diameter on the 1" is smaller than the ID on a 1.5". Same
with 1" and 1.5" butterfly valves, they clamp and gasket with 1.5"
components...only the ID on the 1" valve is smaller....This is useful for
the racking arm...)
     A 1" butterfly can then be fitted, welded to a length of 1" stainless
pipe, bent to angles suitable for the geometry of the CCF under
construction. The pipe is welded to the ID of one side of the valve, taking
care not to interfere with the gasketing surfaces of the valve where it
would mate to the racking port butt welded TC fitting.
     This then allows the one inch pipe to be inserted into the 1.5" TC
racking arm, and once in place, allows racking op's to be performed.
     Further, a 1/4" FPT stainless fitting would be welded just above the
cone, allowing a Zahm and Nagel zwickel (1/4" MPT) to be installed for
sampling.

     This would suffice as a CCF in it's simplest, but....to make the unit
complete....(dream mode on...)

     A domed top, fitted with a CIP, (china hat style is the simplest, and
if made of stainless, it will never break. A simple spray ball would do. 1"
TC as support for this CIP, which allows fitting to stainless blow-off tube
and CIP solution hose.
     This of course would require a manway, now that the top is sealed.
     As for cooling, the simplest is a pair of 1" stainless pipes, through
the cylinder wall, vertically spaced and fitted to a pair of stainless domed
plates welded together..(think 2 Frisbees welded together, concave to
concave, held vertically by a pipe  at  the top and bottom from the sidewall.
This would be fitted at the exterior pipes to a water/glycol recirculant,
solenoided off by a 30 dollar Honeywell dial controller, the probe fitted in
a thermowell located just below the bottom edge of the cooling plate.
     Finally, the whole unit would have to be on 3 legs long enough to allow
a 5 gallon plastic bucket to be placed under the bottom valve, while still
allowing adequate room to open the valve, clearing the handle.
     Dare we even contemplate one or 2 view ports on the dome?

     Now you see why these things cost so much!

Hop Shoots.....
     Hans Aikema asks.... http://www.hopsdirect.com/ is recommended/found by
Doug Hurst.
     I love the pickled hop shoots from Puterbaugh, and have ordered them on
many occasions via phone and web...
http://www.hopsdirect.com/detail.src?SKU=HSPIHS&Category=Pickled%20Hop%20Sho
ots
     Very highly recommended with 5/5 Stars by the Gump Guide!

Cheers!
Jethro Gump

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
New Address- jethrogump at mchsi.com



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