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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Rye Ale questions ("Parker Dutro")
  Re: Hazelnut flavoring in Longshot Brown Ale ("phil sides jr")
  rye (leavitdg)
  BTU's ("Fred Scheer")
  hazelnut flavoring ("Peter Fantasia")
  RE: Longshot hazelnut flavoring ("John Bonney")
  conical chillers ("Jim Bermingham")
  South African Breweries Courting Miller ("Larry Bristol")
  Sam Adams Boston Lager ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  Dangers of propane, latest chapter (Roger Deschner)
  Details on MCAB 4 Conference (Paul Shick)
  Other PID info ("Pete Calinski")
  Longshot HAZELNUT!!! ("Peter Garofalo")
  Thermocouple Wire (john.mcgowan)
  Sankey spelling (bdk)
  First Batch/Hefeweizen ("Scott & Lisa")
  Re: Conical chilling (Daniel Chisholm)


* Visit the George Fix Memorial Guest Book 
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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:15:11 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: RE: Rye Ale questions

Hey John, I would like to brew a rye ale soon too, so I may just grapht
myself into your thread, here.  The only help I can give is that I believe
to use malted rye would be easier, as you could use it in the mash.
However, it is probably undermodified, meaning only that in order to bring
out the enzyme potential, you would be better off doing a decoction with at
least a protein rest at 122F.  If you use flaked rye, (and again, I am only
partially sure of this) you would need to boil it for a bit seperately and
then add the whole soupy mix to the mash.  This boiling would break down the
alpha's and beta's and make the rye usable to the yeast.  You would want to
be careful and monitor the temp. and add it to the mash when it's the same
temp. as the mash.  This may be simpler than decoction.  Hope this sheds
some light.
Parker



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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:27:52 -0500
From: "phil sides jr" <phil at brewingnews.com>
Subject: Re: Hazelnut flavoring in Longshot Brown Ale

Neil Kushnir asks:
>I am about to brew a Hazelnut Brown Ale that was one of the winning recipes
>in the Longshot World Homebrew contest sponsored by the Boston Beer Co.
(Sam
>Adams) several years ago. The recipe simply calls for "hazelnut flavoring"
>added at bottling, but I don't know how much to put in for a five gallon
>batch or what the best kind of hazelnut flavoring is to use. Has anyone had
>previous experience with this recipe or any other using hazelnut flavoring?

I found this on the web Neil:

Hazelnut Brown Ale
INGREDIENTS:
6.6 Lbs.Northwestern Gold Liquid Malt Extract
1/2 Lbs.British Pale Grain (M&F 2-row)
1/2 Lbs.British Crystal Grain (M&F)
1 Lbs Cara-Pils Grain
1 1/2 oz.Willamette or Fuggles hops-60 min.(brewers discretion)
1 oz.Willamette or Fuggles hops-aroma (5 min.steep at end of boil)
1 tsp.Irish Moss
1 1/2 bottles all natural hazelnut flavoring (at bottling)
2 tsp.Gypsum
Wyeast British Ale
Mash grains at 160F in 1.5gal water for 60min.Yield:5 gallons
Hazelnut flavoring is available at area gourmet and fine food dealers.Flavor
to taste at bottling becuase
many hazelnut flavorings have different strengths.
This is the recipe used to win the worldwide "Boston Beer Company 's
Homebrew Contest ".This recipe was
the standard for production of "Longshot Hazelnut Brown Ale ".
Source:Doug &Vicki Parker -Florida

Phil Sides, Jr.
Silver Spring, MD
[420.7, 122.4] Rennerian

- ----
I don't have an attitude problem...  You have a perception problem.







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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:01:13 -0500 (EST)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: rye

John;

  I have not used the flaked rye much, but I have made several batches 
of
Rye ale with the malted rye...in that I purchased 55 lb of it and 
have to use it up!

  I think that if you are not used to rye that you want to limit the 
amt to about 1 lb.  You could use 2 but both the intensity of the rye
flavor (which I like) and the body of the brew (due to beta glucans)
can be challenging.

 I will send you some recipes that I used in the past
(they are at home and I am at work), and perhaps if I
can make the next Montreal Club meeting I will bring some for tasting.

 ..Darrell
[Plattsburgh, NY,...Montreal suburbs...545.7, 72.3 Apparent Rennerian]


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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 07:40:37 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <fhopheads at msn.com>
Subject: BTU's


>Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 05:55:42 -0800 (PST)
>Lonzo McLaughlin wrote: Heat generation during
fermentation
>Is there a formula for BTUs given off during
>fermentation?

Lonzo:
Let me give you following the refrigeration load
calculations:
1. Tank holding load:
load= X sg. ft. of surface area
X 10 BTU/hr/sg.ft
example: a 100 sg. ft tank (appr. 30 BBL) = 1,000 BTU/hr

2. Tank pull down load
product weight = BBL X 31 gal/bbl X 8.34 lb/gal X .97 BTU/lb *F (ex. 68 -32)
example: 30 BBL X 31 gal/bbl= 930 X 8.34 BTU/lb*F (68-32)
= 270,839 BTU/tank

Hope this helps,
happy cooling

Fred Scheer









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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 08:53:49 -0500
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: hazelnut flavoring

Neil,

www.wildroots.com

Try this website and look for flavormate drops. I believe it's one bottle to
5 gallons.

Cheers
Pete Fantasia
NJ


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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 08:53:07 -0500
From: "John Bonney" <john at ruthsx.com>
Subject: RE: Longshot hazelnut flavoring

Neil Kushnir asks about the hazelnut flavoring used in the longshot
recipe...

I just brewed this recipe about 8 weeks ago with limited success.  The
finished beer was okay, maybe a little on the thin side, but still a
good tasting brown ale.  Things went downhill when I added 1oz/5 gallons
of a hazelnut extract I purchased online from a company called
Flavorganics.  

The amount I added was okay, it wasn't overpowering or anything like
that.  The hazelnut flavoring itself just doesn't taste like the full
smooth nutty flavor that I expected.  It was more of a fake tasting
coffee additive flavor.  Probably would have been better for baking
cookies with.

The beer isn't undrinkable, but it's depressing compared to the real
thing (by the way, can you still buy Long shot beer anywhere?). I don't
know, maybe it's just my taste.  I still have (1) 2oz bottle of the
stuff, if anyone is interested in giving it a try (email me w/ your
shipping address).

Anyone else made this recipe?

John Bonney
Grand Rapids,  MI



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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:13:10 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: conical chillers

There have been several post on ways to chill a conical fermenter.  Thanks
to Ken Schwartz and the "Son of a Fermentation Chiller"  I am the proud
owner of the "Mother of  Fermentation Chiller"  About a year ago George Fix
told me how much he enjoyed his 12.2 gal conical he got from BBMB.  He said
the external cooler also provided by BBMB worked great.  George got his
system free from BBMB.  When I ask BBMB if I might get one free they
politely turned me down.  With a $750.00 cost for the chiller I started
looking for an alternate way to chill my conical.
I contacted Ken Schwartz and ask if he would be interested in designing a 
Big Son of a Gun Fermenter".  Ken thought the shipping cost would make the
thing too expensive and the weight of 10 gallon of liquid on the three
legged stand would go through the foam board. So, I used the skill I learned
in seventh grade wood shop class to build the Mother of all Chillers.  I
made a chiller based on Ken's design using plywood and insulating foam. 
Basically, it's a box inside a box with a four inch space between the two
boxes.  This space is filled with spray type insulation foam.  I have a
separate insulated space for six jugs filled with ice.  I have a fan from an
old computer operated by a thermostat to blow air across the ice to cool the
fermenter.  I also have an indoor/outdoor thermometer from Radio Shack that
has a probe that I can insert inside the conical to measure the temp of the
wort.  The thing works great.  At first, to chill it to the desired
temperature, I put three to four additional jugs of ice under the fermenter
itself.  There's lots of room for this.  When the wort gets to my desired
temp. I remove those jugs and rely on the ice in the cooling chamber to do
the rest.  I haven't tried it in the hot Texas summers yet.  If it doesn't
work in the garage, I will put the chiller in a spare room in the house.  It
s heavy, so I added casters enabling me to roll it place to place.
The plans for Ken's "Son of a Fermentation Chiller" can be found on his web
page http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 10:58:31 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: South African Breweries Courting Miller

According to Reuters News Service, South African Breweries (the world's
fifth largest with brands such as Castle and Pilsner Urquell) is trying
to buy Miller away from Philip Morris
(http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/business/1337472) for around $5
billion.

Perhaps some enterprising HBDer could outbid SAB, change the recipe for
"Genuine Draft" into something drinkable, and become a beer God!  :-)


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:15:36 -0800 (PST)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Sam Adams Boston Lager

hmmm 

Anybody had this beer lately? 

Can you taste the Flaked Maize???
Can you see the Corn Color??? 

Is it just me???

OH THE HUMANITY!!!

The mighty have fallen!

C'ya!

 -Scott

=====
"It's Mister Mischief with a trick up his sleeve... 
Roll up on you like Christopher Reeves"
 -D12

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club



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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:18:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Roger Deschner <rogerd at uic.edu>
Subject: Dangers of propane, latest chapter

Funny there should be several propane threads on homebrewing lists
recently. Not so funny on Monday afternoon, ironiocally the very day a
new Illinois law went into effect concerning safer valves on all propane
tanks, when a propane tank exploded in a jewelry repair shop, closing
down much of the Chicago Loop for the afternoon.

It was in the same block as my dentist's office, and she said it was a
really, really loud "ka-boom". Some in the building thought a
terrorist's bomb had gone off, or a plane had hit the building. I saw
the building yesterday afternoon when I went for a dental appointment,
and the 6th floor is charred in some places, with many of its windows
missing, and scaffolding being erected around the building so they could
open the streets and sidewalks. Gawkers: best view of the damage is from
a CTA "L" train.

The affected building, and a block of Madison Street, is still closed.
The Chicago Fire Department is searching for any remaining tanks of
propane in the building, before they will let anyone inside. You can bet
they will be stepping up searches for any propane tanks located in any
building structure (this includes homes) anywhere in the city.

I saw the aftermath first hand: misuse of propane did major damage to a
large, solid, masonry building, and has left two people still in
critical condition in the hospital. The first lawsuit has already been
filed.

Here is the article from today's Chicago Tribune.

Roger Deschner                                            rogerd at uic.edu
      "Anything which can go wrong, will." - somebody named Murphy


- ---------- Fron the Chicago Tribune, April 3, 2002 -----------------


- --------------------
Tenants cited for propane use before explosion 
- --------------------

Tanks are called ongoing problem

By Crystal Yednak and Liam Ford
Tribune staff reporters

April 3, 2002

The use of propane tanks like the one that exploded in a Loop high-rise
Monday is illegal and has been an ongoing problem in the building, city
officials said Tuesday.

Fire Commissioner James Joyce said other propane tanks were found Monday
in the Mallers Building, 5 S. Wabash Ave., after the explosion of a
100-pound tank in Betty's Jewelry on the sixth floor destroyed the shop
and forced the evacuation of the 21-story building.

"We will not allow the building to open until we're sure that all
propane is removed from the building," Joyce said.

Previous inspections have turned up a number of jewelers in the building
still using propane even though it is illegal. During routine
inspections over the past six months, 17 of the more than 100 jewelry
businesses in the building have been cited for having propane tanks,
fire officials said. When Betty's Jewelry was inspected in October,
there was no evidence of propane being used there, Joyce said.

The Fire Department inspects buildings such as the Mallers Building once
a year. Inspectors follow up with those businesses that are cited to
ensure the violations are corrected, fire officials said.

Propane is not used by many jewelers because it violates fire codes and
is volatile, said Kari Anderson, executive director of the Illinois
Jewelers Association. Instead, many use a combination of natural gas and
oxygen to heat gold and other materials, she said.

The Mallers Building is set up to allow jewelers to use natural gas
instead of propane, Joyce said.

While it was still unclear Tuesday why the propane was being used at the
business, other jewelers said the only reason they can see for using
propane is if a natural gas connection is not readily available.

It appears no one was in Betty's Jewelry at the time of the explosion,
Joyce said.

Two people remained hospitalized Tuesday with burns from the blast.
Michael Erdman, 20, was in serious condition at Loyola University
Medical Center in Maywood, with burns to his face, ears, hands and
chest, a hospital spokeswoman said. A 38-year-old man, Alfredo Mohedano,
was in fair condition at Cook County Hospital with burns to his hands
and face, a hospital spokesman said.

Engineers and architects inspected the building Tuesday to be sure that
there was no structural damage. Workers removed shards of glass from
window frames and erected a canopy above the sidewalk around the
building.

All but one street near the building was reopened by Tuesday's afternoon
rush. All of the streets are expected to be open for the morning
commute, Chicago Department of Transportation officials said.

Chicago Transit Authority elevated trains did not stop at the
Madison/Wabash station until later in the afternoon Tuesday.

Mallers Building tenants, unable to get back in their offices Tuesday,
waited behind police lines for word of when they could reopen their
shops.

Joyce said there was no real problem with evacuating people in the
building after the explosion Monday. Joyce added that the building,
because of its age, is not required to have sprinklers or central alarm
systems.

Marlene Hatley, a medical assistant for Sinai Health First on the 21st
floor of the building, filed a lawsuit Tuesday against Mallers Building
Inc. and Betty's Jewelry, alleging that the building's management didn't
have a proper evacuation procedure and that the jewelry store was using
dangerous materials.

Though city officials said the building had an evacuation plan on file,
lawyers for Hatley say it was inadequate if tenants had no idea about
the procedure.

Hatley said she and her co-workers found thick smoke out the front and
back doors of their office, so they opened windows and hung their heads
outside to get air. About 7 p.m., firefighters came up to the office and
escorted them to a stairwell, she said.

Tenants were also concerned about the effect the building's closing
would have on their business.

"I'm sure a lot of people calling our office are wondering what's going
on," said Barb Kotomski, who with co-workers from Reuven Gitter Inc.
walked down 17 floors on the fire escape after finding heavy smoke in
the hallway Monday.


Copyright (c) 2002, Chicago Tribune


- -------------------- Improved archives!

Searching Chicagotribune.com archives back to 1985 is cheaper and easier
than ever. New prices for multiple articles can bring your cost down to
as low as 30 cents an article: http://chicagotribune.com/archives



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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:34:54 -0600
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: Details on MCAB 4 Conference


Hi all,

	Here's a very quick update on MCAB 4, to take
place in Cleveland, Ohio on April 12-13.  The detailed
schedule is up on the web page (hbd.org/mcab) along
with suggestions for hotels near the Renaissance Hotel
(our judging/hospitality site) and Great Lakes Brewing
Company (the site for the talks and the banquet.)  The
registration fee is $50 (including a pretty serious
banquet, commermorative beer and glassware, lots of great
talks, plus tons of great homebrew and conversation in
the hospitality suite) or $25 without the banquet.  We've 
still got room for late registrants, and we could still 
use a few more judges.  I hope to see many HBDers here
in Cleveland next week.

			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:46:10 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Other PID info

Here is a link for more information on PIDs.  Warning, if you are not a PID
Geek, you will get real board/snowed, real fast.


http://www.chipcenter.com/eexpert/praeth/praeth069.html;$sessionid$513DFHQAA
BDLVJ4Y5XCSFEQ

Since the link is so long, you may have to Copy/Paste it into the browser in
2 steps.

There is also a Programmable Logic Controller (PLC) which is another way to
perform the same function.  Information is at

http://www.chipcenter.com/eexpert/praeth/praeth070.html

Same warning applies.


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************




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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:55:25 -0500
From: "Peter Garofalo" <pgarofa1 at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Longshot HAZELNUT!!!

In today's HBD, Neil Kushnir asks:

>I am about to brew a Hazelnut Brown Ale that was one of the winning recipes
>in the Longshot World Homebrew contest sponsored by the Boston Beer Co.
(Sam
>Adams) several years ago. The recipe simply calls for "hazelnut flavoring"
>added at bottling, but I don't know how much to put in for a five gallon
>batch or what the best kind of hazelnut flavoring is to use. Has anyone had
>previous experience with this recipe or any other using hazelnut flavoring?
>Any recommendations? I am familiar with the process of adding a small
>premeasured amount of flavoring bit by bit until the taste is where I want
>it, then extrapolating the small amount to a five gallon batch.

As one who judged in both Longshot competitions, let me relate a little
story: the wonderful hosts of the second Longshot competition provided very
comfortable and affordable accomodations, including full meals (even a
clambake). They also had cases of free winners from the previous year. Well,
my judging session ran long, and the only one left was the hazelnut ale. I
took one, drank about a quarter of the bottle, and haven't been the same
since...

Based on my experience, I'd have to guess that the proper proportion of
hazelnut extract in a five gallon batch would be about 4.98 gallons! The
next morning, they had hazelnut flavored coffee at breakfast. I could not
get it past my nose, and to this day have lost all desire to drink hazelnut
flavored anything. However, as they say, different strokes for different
folks. Fire away!

Cheers,

Peter Garofalo
Syracuse, NY



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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:58:57 -0500
From: john.mcgowan at us.abb.com
Subject: Thermocouple Wire



A reconfiguration of my RIMS has caused my thermocouple (Cole-Parmer, T-Type,
EW-08439-84) to be approximately two feet further from my PID.  Consequently,
the cord between the thermocouple and the PID is now two feet too short as well.
I called Cole-Parmer to ask if they sell thermocouple extension wire. They do --
in 100 foot rolls! A bit much (in both length and cost) for my needs. They also
offer a neat 5 foot extension cord, but that costs nearly the same as the
thermocouple itself.

Does anyone out there have a spare four feet of 20 gauge T-Type thermocouple
wire they could part with? (I know that I'll screw it up at least once) Or can
anyone offer an alternative solution (aside from the obvious go back to your
prior configuration -- with which I was not happy -- or move your PID two feet
closer)?

Private e-mails OK.
Thanks
John McGowan
Hopewell, NJ




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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:16:09 -0800 (PST)
From: bdk at srl.caltech.edu
Subject: Sankey spelling

I have always wondered both what the Sankey in Sankey kegs means, and
whether it is spelled Sanke or Sankey (there seems to be a 50/50 split
over how to spell it).  I couldn't turn up any old discussions in the
HBD archives, so I did a couple of quick searches to find out.  The
only thing I found is a patent (U.S. Patent 4,142,658) held by
GKN Sankey, from the 70's, for a keg valve.  GKN, as far as I
can tell, is a big aerospace / automotive engineering firm in the U.K.,
with a division called GKN Sankey.

So I am now assuming that these things are Sankey kegs because GKN Sankey 
came up with the valve design.  Can anybody confirm / deny / shed light 
on this?  Or on why a company that makes helicopters and auto components
would be designing kegs?


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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:56:32 -0600
From: "Scott & Lisa" <scottandlisa at mindspring.com>
Subject: First Batch/Hefeweizen

First of all, let me thank all those who responded to my last questions
BEFORE I started this batch.  Now that have this beer in my carboy, I have
some more questions:

1.  It seems to me that the beer is very dark for a Hefeweizen.  Is the B3
German Hefeweizen kit suppose to produce a dunkelweizen or a weizen?

2.  Does a carboy "fermometer" give you accurate temperature readings?  I
keep my house a 68F, but according to the fermometer, I have been averaging
between 64-66F.  Wouldn't the metabolic activity of the yeast generate some
heat?

3.  How long should this beer ferment?  I am up to day 5 right now, and the
airlock is bubbling every ~13 sec.  Korzonas' book says to wait until the
bubbles are three minutes apart.  Also, I still have a pretty hefty layer of
krauesen on top of the beer - is that supposed to dissipate at some point?
It seems like at this rate, I will be waiting longer than 2 weeks to bottle.

4.  BTW - I did use a 1L yeast starter, and oxygenated the wort prior to
pitching.  My OG was right on target at 1.052, and the pitching temperature
was 74F.

Thanks in advance for your input...
Scott



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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:21:58 -0400
From: Daniel Chisholm <dmc at nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: Conical chilling

I tried to use a loop of copper tube in the freezer compartment of a
dorm fridge to cool a small coldroom (lagering room!) last summer.  I
used an aquarium water circulation pump (which was magnetically coupled,
and had a static head of about 30" IIRC) to pump a mixture of water and
"plumbing antifreeze" (cheaper than auto antifreeze) from a reservoir
(100 oz. coffee can) through the fridge wall into the 3 or 4 loops of
3/8" copper tube, then back into the cold room and into 2 loops of 3/8"
copper tubing, which had a computer fan circulating air over them (and
having condensate sweat from it like crazy, dripping into and diluting
the antifreeze in aformentioned 100 oz. coffee can).

FWIW, even though my pump only had a static head of about 30", I moved
my coolant at an adequate flow rate over a vertical height of about four
feet.  Think about syphons for a bit, and it'll suddenly fit you how to
do it.... ;-)  Of course, like a siphon, it has to be primed, and will
stop flowing if there is an air leak or air lock - however I did not
find that to be a problem in practice.

The coldroom was about 3' square by about 7' high, insulated on two
walls and one ceiling with 2" white styrofoam.  The other two walls and
floor were concrete (basement corner).  The cooling capacity of my
(remarkably clever, I though ;-) device was inadequate.  It improved
_somewhat_ when I flooded the freezer compartment with about 3/4" of
water, so as to freeze the copper coils inside ice (and improve the
thermal conduction path by having ice couple the aluminum freezer
compartment to the copper coils, instead of mainly air coupling).

If I were to attempt to improve the heat transfer capability of that
system with a radiator, the first place I'd put it would be in the cold
room, complete with forced air circulation through it (I'd also make a
drip tray and drain hose to take the condesate away).

Dunno if using a small radiator (an auto heater core as suggested
previously is a great idea) inside the freezer compartment would help
the heat transfer capacity enough.  The limiting factor would then
become the relative small area of the freezer compartment's flat
aluminum chilling surface (evaporator).


- -- 
 - Daniel
Fredericton, NB  Canada


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---