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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
   ("Bryan & Tiffany German")
  clear Weizen beer (ensmingr)
  Exploding Carboy ("Steve Jones")
  re:  clear Weizen ("George de Piro")
  pepper beer (Jeff & Ellen)
  re: decoction ("Steve Alexander")
  Survival of the fittest...yeast! (Casey)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  cooling fermenters, hop trellis, propane & links ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Plastic mash tun ("Jon & Megan Sandlin")
  Cleveland restaurants (Mark Kellums)
  Cloudy Runoff ("John Misrahi")
  re: decoction (Jeff Renner)
  Asheville NC (Paul Mahoney)
  heat of fermentation ("Steve Alexander")


* Maltose Falcons 2002 Mayfaire Competition 
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:52:34 -0700
From: "Bryan & Tiffany German" <germanbt at pmt.org>
Subject: 

>Another issue I was wondering about. Do I put the peppers in the bottle/keg
or
> do I add to secondary or both? If I put in bottle will it screw up the
yeast
> and make the beer hazy? All grain recipe? Thanks in advance!
>
> Colby Fry
> Orrstown, Pa

Be very careful, and find yourself a good guinea pig.    I made a Pyramid
Snowcap clone this past September, at the same time I was just finishing the
last harvest of serrano peppers from my garden.   I sought the advice of the
brewmaster at Pyramid, who was very helpful.   His suggestion was to put the
peppers in the bottles, which worked very well. I decided to go that way
instead of experimenting with the entire batch.  I figured adding the
peppers to the fermented beer lowered the risk of contamination, so I just
rinsed them off and dropped them in after cutting the stems off.   It turned
out very good, but very, very hot.   I gave away my last bottle last week to
a friends of my father's, and he said it was almost undrinkable, from the
heat, so don't save them for six months.
I didn't notice any problems with haze, but I would expect reduced head
retention (because of the oils in the peppers), although it didn't seem to
affect it too much.    I would suggest something around the rate of 3 to 6
peppers per gallon, depending on your heat tolerance.
My brother was going to try making one and he talked to the owner of Larry's
Brewing Supply in Kent WA (Seattle) who had some recipes and suggestions.
It might be worthwhile to contact him.   www.larrysbrewing.com
1-800-441-BREW

Let me know how it turns out.   PS Do not use Tabasco or similar as the salt
and vinegar WILL kill off your yeasties.

Bryan J German
Paul ID
germanbt at pmt.org



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Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 02:07:31 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: clear Weizen beer

There's nothing wrong with a clear Hefe Weizen!

I lived in southern Germany for 2 years and consumed hundreds of
bottles of Hefe Weizen from many different breweries. In all
cases, the beer was clear in the glass as long as my pour did not
disturb the yeast (Hefe) on the bottom of the bottle. Never saw
protein haze.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr/




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Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 07:54:13 -0500
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: Exploding Carboy

A brewbuddy called me the other day to tell me what he came home to
after work.

As soon as he walked in the door, he smelled a potent yeast aroma. He
had made 2 batches a couple days earlier, and since it was too cold in
the basement, he put them in is bedroom to keep them warm enough,
putting the carboy boxes over them to keep the light out. He walked up
to the bedroom and found that one of the 6.8 gallon carboys had
exploded. Apparently the airlock got plugged and the weight of the box
setting on top kep the airlock from being blown out, so the pressure had
no where else to go. He was grateful that the box contained most of the
glass shards, but can you imagine the mess of 6 gallons of fermenting
wort soaked into your bedroom carpet?

I too use my carboy boxes inverted over them while they are fermenting
when in an open area to prevent light exposure. I will be darn sure that
they are not sitting on the airlock from now on.


Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
stjones1 at chartertn.net
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




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Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:17:12 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: re:  clear Weizen

Hi all,

Accidentally clear Hefeweizen can be caused by several factors:

1.  Protein rest during mash (unnecessary with almost all modern malts)

2.  Yeast settling (disturb the sediment while pouring to solve this one)

3.  Yeast autolyzing, releasing proteases that clarify the beer and also
hurt the head retention

The last one that happens with a fair amount of frequency because Weizen
yeasts tend to be a bit unstable.  That is the main reason that large
breweries often filter the original strain out of the beer and replace it
with a lager yeast.  A pH meter can help you determine if autolysis is the
problem; the pH drops as yeast autolyze.

Pasteurizing the beer, like so many large breweries do, also solves this
problem.  The yeast are killed and the proteases denatured, so they don't
cause damage.  Storing your beer cold and keeping the yeast happy with good
fermentation practices can help reduce the problem.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
www.EvansAle.com

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas




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Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 16:11:51 -0500
From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: pepper beer

Colby Fry writes about wanting to make a hot pepper beer, "Is this a 
worthwhile project or am I just getting carried away?"  Yes, you're too far 
gone to save now.

I've found that cooking the fresh peppers at about 200F for 11/2 to 2 hours 
drives off a lot of the oils that diminish head retention in the finished 
beer.  Until I started this procedure my pepper beer would lose its head 
suddenly after a few minutes.  Who needs a pepper beer without a head?  For 
that matter, who needs a pepper beer at all?

I make mine with a Belgian White Beer base and add the peppers to the 
secondary and let them "marinate" for three or so weeks, until the right 
heat is achieved.  I've added the peppers directly to the keg in the past 
and enjoyed the increase in heat as the beer is consumed.  It's nice if you 
know what to expect.  Sometimes it's not so much fun for my friends.

Jeff Gladish, Tampa, FL



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Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 17:16:34 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: decoction

Dave Reidel asks re decoction ...

>>However, I'm not certain that decocting is worth the effort.
Same here.  It does IMO make a difference, but also IMO not a huge one.

>>Anyone have a good Pils method?

If you have been making high quality consistent lagers via infusion or step
mashing then you are in a position to judge whether decoction adds that
little something extra to your brewing efforts.  In that case I'd encourage
you to try decoction for the experience alone.

If you are serious about experimenting with decoction consider malt that
deserves the treatment since HB folklore has it that these provide better
decoction flavors.  St.Pat's Czech import malt is one less-well modified
commercial malt that comes to mind.  Breiss website also describes a new
pils malt that is less modified too (37%SNR+-2%).  The numbers suggest that
both of these are at the low-end of "well modified" and not really
undermodified like traditional malts for decoction.  It's the best you can
do today without malting your own.   I have no experience with of Beeston's
Lagers malt, but the (circa 1997) data shows it to be highly diastatic with
an SNR of 36-42% - better modified than an ideal decoction malt.     Jim
Busch & Victory Brewing have recommended or use Weyermann's as I recall.
Certainly a great maltster, but their regular production malts are not
"under modified".

Do read the traditional decoction schedules you'll find at 'the Brewery'
library website
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/DecoctFAQ.html
but don't use them.  As Jeff Renner points out - extended rests around 122F
will damage the flavor, head and body of beers made from modern well
modified malts.

Wolfgang Kunze wrote of an abridged two step decoction process when using
modern malt.  I mentioned this  my recent Zymurgy decoction article, but the
published diagrams were botched.  See
http://steve-alexander.home.att.net/ for the correct diagrams.  I would
recommend this for
decocting any commercial lager malt.   The temp & time recommended in
Kunze's charts are:

MashIn:  30'  at  62C (144F)
1stDecoct: step to 70C (158F) for a 15'rest, then to boil (212F) for 5'
Mix: for a 30'  at  70C rest of the main mash
2ndDecoct: step to boiling for 5'
Mix: for 10' mashout at 77C(170F)

This decoction schedule only takes a little over 2 hours.   Kunze is getting
a 7C or 8C boost from each decoction which sounds like his thick decoction
portion must average only about 20-25% of the mash volume.   Perhaps because
his mash is thinner.   Kunze mentions a mash thickness of 4:1 or 5:1 for
pale beers like a pils.  That's 2qt/lb to 2.5 qt/lb in homebrew terms !

One point of contention - Kunze's abridged two-step includes two 5 minute
decoction boils.    There are some reasons to think that a longer total
decoction boil time will lend more decoction flavor.   It's easy enough to
experiment by extending the boil times in this schedule.

Jeff Renner suggests ....

> [...] pseudo-decoction [...] Hubert Hanghofer's (whose participation here
is missed)

Agreed  - where is Hubert ?  I like your adaptation of Hubert's idea for a
pseudo-decoction because of it's simplicity Jeff, *but* ....  I'll add to
the ad nauseum by stating that both caramelization and Maillard reactions
occur at *far* lower rates in the relatively watery low temperature thick
decoction than in the maltsters kiln.  The rates are even less in the thin
boiled "half-mash" of this pseudo-decoction.  Do you use this schedule Jeff
?  Does it give notable results ?

IMO you can buy your decoction flavor products from the maltster in the form
of caramel, munich and melanoidin malts cheaper and easier than making them
by decocting.  There are minor differences in the flavors, aromas and colors
that survive into the beer and so it will (and should) remain a matter of
personal choice whether decoction is worthwhile.

The most important advice to DaveR and anyone else about to evaluate
decoction brewing or any other advanced brewing method is this - use
comparative blind tastings. That way you can evaluate the results without
the "flavor addition" made by the ancient and romantic brewing lore or the
sweat and tears of a monumental decoction brewing session.  The 'lore' and
'sweat' factors always make a beer more attractive, but when objectively
weighed against a long, messy and wort oxidizing decoction brewing session
the advantages sometimes disappear into the mists with the Rhine maidens and
other Niebelung.

 -S





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Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 23:01:40 -0700
From: Casey <acez at mindspring.com>
Subject: Survival of the fittest...yeast!

Hey guys,

I was sitting around with some of my coworkers and came up with the
crazy idea of making a crazy hybrid super high temperature yeast.
Essentially, I would like to create a yeast that doesn't create so many
fusel alcohols and off flavors at high temperatures (around 100-105).
Perhaps those yeast that are less active and have just fallen out would
be the best candidates in a batch (as opposed to the the active ones
still in suspension...but I welcome corrections) and I would harvest
several generations weeding out those that remain active. If you live in
the desert without a fridge to regulate your temp, you can appreciate
how helpfull this would be (I actually have a fridge, I just like doing
expiraments).

What are all your thoughts on this? Should I slowly raise the
temperature or just go straight to the 100 range? I will most likely be
using a space heater in some enclosure, so I can control it with
accuracy. What would be the best way to get the yeast with this desired
characteristic (I may be wayyyy off)? Any other neat things I could do
in the process, as in, any alternate characteristics that would be more
practical?

Let me know. I'm really interested in this!

Thanks as always,

Casey
Beer, Beer & more Beer
http://morebeer.com



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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 01:30:28 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report
Jim Busch....
     Seeing as we agree on most, but one point evades concurrance.....I feel
a need to say "Send me beer!."
     If you want to clean more, or offer more oxygen to the brew, who am I
to object?
Besides that, Jim is one of my 'Beer Gods.'
Cheers!
gump (not worthy)

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
New Address- jethrogump at mchsi.com



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Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 11:11:29
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: cooling fermenters, hop trellis, propane & links

Braam Greyling asked if anyone has tried a stainless steel coil inside a
fermenter.  

I use a 3' lenght of corrugated SS tubing (a gas connector) bent into a "U"
inside cornie keg fermenters for cooling by circulating chilled water thru
it.  (Details at http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/kegferm.htm  )  It works well.
 I first tried a coil of copper since it's a better heat conductor, is much
cheaper and much easier to wind into a coil than SS, BUT, it got a pretty
thick & tenecious layer tan colored stuff on it after the ferment.  I don't
know if it was beer stone or some sort of corrosion.  The SS doesn't seem
to get nearly as much of the stuff on it- or maybe it just doesn't show as
much...

- -------
Roger Deschner posted a good news article on the dangers of propane if not
used safely.  From
http://www.nfpa.org/Research/NFPAFactSheets/Propane_safety/propane_safety.as
p : In 1998, there were 1,600 LP-gas fires in U.S. homes, resulting in 41
deaths, 260 injuries and $30.8 million in direct property damage.  
The lessons in both sources- don't bring cylinders inside or pipe in high
pressure propane and check pipe and (especially) hoses for leaks.  For us
brewers, be sure to remember to close the valve on the propane tank or
cylinder when you aren't using propane for brewing.  

- ------
A page on making a freestanding 3 legged "teepee" hop trellis from EMT is
at http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/trellis.htm   Use two of 'em with twine and
rope (and maybe guy wires!) between for more growing space.

Also just posted info on making a cheap temperature controller suitable for
fridges, fermenters, HTLs and such.  Basically a thermistor and pot.
connected to a comparator which controls a relay.  

c.d. pritchard     cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 08:21:48 -0700
From: "Jon & Megan Sandlin" <sandlin at bendcable.com>
Subject: Plastic mash tun

I would like to use a mash tun out of a 15 gallon plastic (HDPE) cylindrical
container.  Could the collective please help me with spigot and straining
design?  I am also curious as to how to insulate it in an attractive manner.
Thanks in advance for your help.

Jon Sandlin
Bend, OR




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Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 10:44:10 -0500
From: Mark Kellums <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Cleveland restaurants

Hello,
Kristine and I will be in Cleveland Friday April 12th and we were hoping
someone could recommend a good restaurant downtown.

Thanks very much
Mark Kellums
Decatur Il.



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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 16:12:40 -0700
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Cloudy Runoff

Hi all. I just did my second partial mash yesterday , a British ale.=20
Pale malt,
light malt extract,
light crystal malt,
victory malt,
fuggles and EKG hops,
Wyeast 1968 Special London ESB yeast
a pinch of irish moss
ditto of gypsum

it mostly seems to have gone well and is fermenting vigorously as we
speak (the yeast was packaged on April 2nd - talk about fresh!)

so my question is this: after recirculating and recirculating, my runoff
just wouldn't come particle free like in my first mash, i mean it wasnt
full of debris but there certainly was some coming through. Somewhat
impatiently, I ran it into the pot and boiled anyway. Is this bad? Will
the husks etc.. ruin my beer ? (tannins=astringent? debris=cloudy?)
all grain types to the rescue please!

thanks
John Misrahi
Montreal, Canada





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Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 17:31:37 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: re: decoction

At 5:16 PM -0500 4/6/02, Steve Alexander wrote:
>both caramelization and Maillard reactions
>occur at *far* lower rates in the relatively watery low temperature thick
>decoction than in the maltsters kiln.  The rates are even less in the thin
>boiled "half-mash" of this pseudo-decoction.  Do you use this schedule Jeff
>?  Does it give notable results ?

I have used this only once in a weizenbier, which I believe was 
Hubert's original subject.  I didn't not do any kind of side by side, 
but I was happy with the results.

I have been waiting to use it again for a brew where results might be 
discernable, and my next lager (probably in early May) will be a 
Bohemian Pils.  I will use this technique and report.  I plan on 
making the first mash rather thick, so this may help.

BTW, this brew is because of a kind gift from Jim Bermingham of some 
Zatec Sladek hops, which were a portion of a gift from Lynne O'Connor 
to Bluebonnet Award Banquet attendees.  This is regifting of the best 
fashion.  A public thank you to both.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 19:34:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Mahoney <pmmaho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Asheville NC

Brewers:
   Last month Steve Jones (thanks Steve!) gave us a
report on good beer places to visit in Asheville NC. 
My wife and I visited Asheville last week to see the
Biltmore Estate, and to visit some of Steve's
recommended sites.  Here is a brief report on our beer
tasting.
   The best place in Asheville is Jack of the Woods
(95 Patton Ave.).  The ambience is unique: old hippie
professor types, lots of hair (looked like a revival
of the Broadway play "Hair"), very 60s.  The food was
very good (try the wings), and service was pleasant,
prompt, but not overbearing.  We were there on a
Wednesday night when they held a 'mountain jam'.  Lots
of folks just showed up with instruments and started
playing mountain music.  All acoustic. They tried to
recreate an Irish pub.  I think they succeeded.
Bathrooms were immaculate (wives like that).
  I tried several Green Man brews: the IPA was over
the top on hops.  Truly a hop heads delight.  The
Stout was thick, black, smoky-peat flavored.  Nice
long-lasting creamy head.
   The worst place was Asheville Pizza.  It is in a
large building, it is also a movie theater.  It is
very eclectic, dirty, young hippie appearance.  The
place was dirty, service was slow.  Almost had to beg
for a beer.  We were there mid-afternoon.  4 or 5
other customers in the place.  We ate salsa and chips
(salsa was very good).
   I tried their Houdini ESB.  It was very good,
hoppy, well-balanced.  This is an excellent pale ale. 
The Piedmont Pilsner was close to the orgininal PU,
some diacytyl but within style.
The Red Lager (I was told by the bartender that it is
brewed by French Broad Brewing)tasted like new
cardboard.  Almost undrinkable.
   Finally we visited Barleys Taproom (42 Biltmore
Ave.).  Thjey have lots of great beers on tap, and
also serve Highland Brewing's beers (which is in the
basement).   Pizza was OK (there are 2 or 3 places in
Roanoke, VA. that serve better pizza, but we do not
have any brewpubs!).  
  I sampled Highland Gaelic Ale: a good session beer,
nice balance between hops and malt, nice example of a
British mild or bitter.  Next I tried Highland Oatmeal
Porter: nice creamy head, good flavor balance, but it
almost seemed like Porter "lite".  It needed more
body.  Finally I tried the French Broad Brewing's
Amber Bock (I think that is the name, by that time
palate fatigue and alchohl overload was setting in):
toasty, malty, excellent beer. 
  All in all we had a great time, and we had an
opportunity to try lots of real beer brewed in western
North Carolina.  It is worth a 2 or 3 day visit to see
the Biltmore Estate and visit the brewpubs.

Paul M. Mahoney
Roanoke, Va.
Star City Brewers Guild



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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:44:11 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: heat of fermentation

Someone asked how much heat is generated in fermentation.

Fermentation releases 587Joules as heat per gram of fermented sugar.
That's 140 calories  per gram [NB: these are small (gram) calories,
not dietary "C"alories(kilocalories)].

So how much fermentable sugar is in wort ?

For a 12P wort, 12% of the mass is extract.   How much of the extract is
fermentable ? A common rule of thumb is that 81% of the *apparent*
attenuation represents the real attenuation (and extract).   A very
attenuative wort might reach 80% apparent attenuation, so the real
attenuation would be about 80*0.81 = 64.8%.  As a commonly used upper bound
is  fermentables never exceed 2/3rd of the extract weight for conventional
wort.

Example calculation:
20Liters(5.2gallons) of 12P wort (density 1.048) weighs 20.96kg, where
2.51kg is extract and 1.673kg  fermentable.  Fermenting this would produce
(1.673kg*140cal/gm) 234kcal.

// calcs
20L * 1.048SG = 20.96 kg  total wort mass
12% * 20.96kg = 2.51kg extract mass
2.51kg * (2/3) = 1.673kg fermentable mass (upper bound)
1.673kg*140cal/gm =  234kcal.

==========

For scratchpad estimation of the upper bound of the heat generated from wort
fermentation we can simply multiply ....

PlatoDegrees times Liters and get a bound figure in kcals

//    e.g.  12P * 20L => 240kcal

or for the english unit types estimate  ...

SGdegrees times Gallons bounds the heat released in kcals.

//    e.g.  48SGdegrees * 5.25gal  =>  252kcal

This simple estimation gets a little edgy at high gravities.   A highly
attenuative 20L of barleywine at 25P would calculate at 516kcal vs an
estimate of 500kcal.  Since no one actually makes 80% attenuable
barleywines, and the very hi gravity worts  don't ferment as fast it's still
an excellent decent upper bound estimate when designing a fermenter chiller.

One kcal is sufficient to raise 1L of water by 1C in temp (or 1 gallon by
almost 0.5F )  The fermentation of conventional gravity (12P) wort could (if
contained) raise the fermenter temp by about 11C or 20F.


========================

The other important factor in choosing chiller capacity is the amount of
time over which the heat is released.   Clearly most is released during
primary fermentation, but that might mean anything from 60% of the heat
released over 5 days to 90% released in 6 hours.  I *think* (personal guess
coming) that a chiller capable of removing 50% of the total upper bound
fermentation heat evenly over 24 hours would be sufficient   Like a 15gal
fermenter capable of handling 1.120SG barleywines with a (120*15*0.50/24hrs)
37.5kcal/hr.

That's not a huge chilling capacity.


 -S





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---