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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Brewing in the Australian bush.... (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Phils Phriend/oxidation ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Maintaining 65F ("Kent Fletcher")
  Temperature Control ("Sandy Macmillan")
  Fermentation Temperature Control (Ken Schwartz)
  Adventures in Bottleing (Mark Anderson)
  AHA Membership Class Restructuring ("Paul Gatza")
  Mild Ale : feedback requested ("John Misrahi")
  Cleaning stainless containers (David Towson)
  Re: BJCP guidelines (Spencer W Thomas)
  DC trip report (Spencer W Thomas)
  Cooler Fermentation Temps (NM)" <MarkC.Lane at voicestream.com>
  Amount of Caraffa (in Dark Lager) (leavitdg)
  Southwold (yeast) (leavitdg)
  Business Bashing???? (Rick Lassabe)
  Re: Hefeweizen mash schedule ("Michael J. Westcott")


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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:52:51 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Brewing in the Australian bush....

Jeff wrote;

> From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
> Subject: Brewing in the Australian bush....

>Think you brew under difficult conditions?  

Fortunately I am well placed away from Graham... thousands of miles
seperate us...

 Yet with all this, one of her beers took first place in a 
> recent homebrew competition.
> 
> My hat is off to you, Philippa.  Hope to meet you and see your setup someday.

Jeff I am just going to make a correction here. Phillipa took out not only  
Classes but also the award for the best regional brewer.

What is more pleasing is that when Phillipa started brewing 2 years ago she
had lots of problems with Infections and such. Instead of throwing her hands 
in the air with dispear and giving up, Phillipa put in the hard yards and the 
work has paid off.

Any accolade that Phillipa recieves is much deserved and I know humbly
recieved!

Scotty






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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 02:07:59 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Phils Phriend/oxidation

The phenomena of phils phonic phermentation phinishing phrobnicator

Carboys 'ping' differently at different phases of fermentation ?   Hmmm -
water and the typical stuff of wort  is nearly incompressible.  Sound in
water is, for this reason, a much simpler phenomena than sound in air.  I
suspect yeast are not particularly compressible either.  Yeast are ignorably
small compared the huge wavelengths of sound in water - so diffraction isn't
possible.   I suspect the explanation is that the still fermenting stuff has
enough CO2 bubbles in it so as to create small compressible pockets within
the wort and this would cause  frequency dispersion (and a little heat)
instead of an almost pure tone you'd get frequency components above and
below the harmonics.

Whatever the full explanation - I just tried an experiment with a carboy
full of water and my aeration pump and the difference in tone is dramatic.
You have a very observant friend Dan Listermann.

===========================

Phil Yates (who should be brushing up on modus ponens) takes my statement
'if I worried about such things .... scooping mash to the tun ....
nightmares' a bit wrong.

Oxidation of the compounds in wort is never a good idea, but a certain
amount is unavoidable.    I'd prefer to avoid the avoidable parts.    My
recent MCAB talk surveyed oxidation issues and I hope the M'CABAL will see
fit to put the computer-ready presentations on a website somewhere (I'd
really like a longer look at AJ's colorless beer color presentation myself).

Anyway as you may already know the oxidation of oils and fatty acids have
the worst ultimate flavor consequences.  This is a two step process tho' and
the initial oxidation is most likely in the mash or before, and doesn't
produce immediately bad results.  The first phase of oxidation is subject to
chain-reaction oxidation of additional lipids.   These damaged lipids do
eventually break down into the nasties we hate to taste - tho' this can take
weeks or months in a decently handled beer, and the timing is partly
determined by how much everything else was oxidized along the way.  There
are papers about that speculate that the trans-2-nonenal precursors survive
the fermentation in the form of lipid-amine compounds - only to jekyll->hyde
after fermentation.

Anyway - keeping trub out of the fermenter and keeping your yeast happy may
be effective in reducing these lipids in the first place.   If I was going
to try to improve things re O2 access, I'd look to the mash - especially
early.

Pete Czerpak adds ....

>One area that I have noticed
>the biggest impact of oxidation in my kegged beers is the impact of large
>amounts of munich or dark crystal malts.

Same here.   The dark malts contain reductones - which are initially
anti-oxidants, *BUT* in the oxidized state and in the presence of rather
tiny amounts of iron or copper ions it promotes oxidation via the Fenton
reaction.   In "The use of O18 in appraising the impact of oxidation process
during beer storage", by Noel, Meais and the crew from Universite'
Catholique de Louvrain, Belgium - they added ascorbic acid to a beer.
Ascorbic has the same sort of anti-oxidant mechanism and bad karma with Fe
and Cu as reductones.   Anyway after aging the beer+ascorbic had higher
levels of oxidation than the control !  The oxidized ascorbic + metal is a
catalyst to oxidation.  I think this will be true of beers with reductones
too.

The late George Fix described reductones as  double edged sword re
antioxidant/oxidation activity, but the oxidation side of that sword cuts a
*lot* better than the antioxidant side.   If the reductones didn't come
mixed in with all those great roast and Maillard flavors I'd get rid of 'em.

I think I detect aldehydes in these darker beers as they go off.  Sulfite
will  reportedly mask aldehyde flavors so if you need an experimental
repair effort and aren't allergic a campden tablet into the keg might do the
job.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 02:04:01 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Maintaining 65F

John,
As far as a cheap solution, just place your primary (or secondary) into an
open (rectangular) picnic cooler.  A 6.5 gallon carboy will fit snugly in a
50 or so quart cooler.  Then fill the cooler to one or two inches of full
with water at your desired temp (don't worry about the protion of the carboy
which remains exposed to the air).  Check the temp twice a day.  Freexe
liter PET bottles full of water and cycle them between your freezer and
improvized fermetation cooler to maintain target temp.  The large mass of
water/filled carboy makes for a fairly stabel thermal mass, you really have
to ignore it to get off more than a couple of degrees.



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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:58:17 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at kems.net>
Subject: Temperature Control

I have been watching the posts on temperature control, and although I am
more a lurker than contributor, but I appreciate the help and advise I have
been given and have picked up through this forum. I live and work in a
desert environment and with ambient temperatures over 50C in summer I had to
resort to refrigeration for my fermentors. I have built 2 stainless steel
conical fermentors and fitted them with direct expansion copper coils on the
outside to cool the wall of the fermenter. The conical was then insulated
and mounted in a small wooden trolley. Compressor and condenser are mounted
beneath. A thermostat measures the fermentation temperature and switches
cooling on or off as required. I can adjust the set point from 2C up to 25C
as required. It was quite a major project to build and certainly not too
cost effective, but if anyone is interested I can provide further details.

Sandy Macmillan
Scotsman at kems.net




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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 05:56:18 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Fermentation Temperature Control

John Misrahi and Parker Dutro ask about controlling fermentation
temperature in warm weather.

Consider the Fermentation Chiller, featured as a DIY project on my
webpage http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer , or as a kit from
http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com .

- --
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com




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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 06:04:14 -0700
From: Mark Anderson <MarkA at NHWA.ORG>
Subject: Adventures in Bottleing

Greetings All:

In a move to simplify and hasten the bottling process, I bought the
Listerman stainless racking cane and the Listerman philler.  Both promised a
fast and smooth transfer of beer.  To further simplify bottling, I decided
to try Primetabs, eliminating the need for priming buckets and all that.
The cane and philler worked great.  There was a noticable difference in flow
time.  The Primetabs were easy to handle and there was no foaming, as
someone had warned me there would be, and they were quickly in solution.  My
bottling time was nearly cut in half, and there was much less fussing around
with sanitizers, etc.  It really is a great way to bottle.  The only real
drawback is that after three weeks, there isn't a hint of carbonation.  Not
a puff.  

The problem may be that I didn't allow headspace in the neck of the bottle.
Unlike the common fillers, this philler drains its contents into the bottle
when the filling stem is removed, so the fluid level remains the same after
you withdraw the stem.  Consequently, the headspace in most bottles doesn't
amount to much over 1/8 inch.  (I thought I was doing a Good Thing, avoiding
oxydizing, etc.)  

Or perhaps it's the nature of Primetabs to take a while longer to ferment.
Should I be rousing the yeast by turning the bottles?  I'm pretty careful
with sanitizing and rinsing, using Iodophor, so I don't think I contaminated
the batch with sanitizer when I racked to secondary.  I'd bottled an ale
with Wyeast American / Chico yeast.  1.050 finished at about 1.011.
Secondary for two weeks at about 55 degrees.  Bottled and stored at 65
degrees.  

I've a similar brew in the secondary.  Waiting to bottle until this gets
resolved.  

Thanks for your input.

Mark Anderson
Seattle, WA


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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:35:21 -0600
From: "Paul Gatza" <paul at aob.org>
Subject: AHA Membership Class Restructuring

Hi everyone. It was nice to see some of you at the MCAB hospitality on
Friday night.

If you are an American Homebrewers Association member, you will be receiving
the details of the AHA Membership Class Restructuring in a letter coming
shortly. The letter details the price change in an individual AHA Membership
to $38, the addition of a new Family Membership option, the addition of a
joint AHA-Institute for Brewing Studies Membership and a merging of the
Canadian and International memberships into an International Membership
class. The official date of the changes is May 16th. You may renew now for
up to three years to lock in the current price for three years beyond your
current expiration. No one likes to pay more for what they currently
receive, and I know this restructuring will lead to strong emotions. I
encourage you to channel those passions into continued support for the hobby
of homebrewing and for the AHA to run programs for homebrewers and be a
major promoter of homebrewing to the uninitiated. For those of you looking
to join the AHA, you can do so at $33 through May 15th. After that date the
price goes up to $38.

New benefits that accompany this restructuring are the Pub Discount Program
and the upcoming changes to the www.beertown.org website. We have over 100
brewpubs spread around the country who have offered to provide a discount on
beer, food and/or merchandise (in compliance with individual state laws). A
typical discount will be happy hour prices on beer all the time for showing
an AHA card. All members will receive a current AHA card with the mailing
and a new, updated card will be sent to each member upon renewal. The pub
discount program will grow to include better beer bars and more pubs as it
gains momentum. The program kicks off July 1 in conjunction with American
Beer Month. Beertown is being redesigned to be more interactive and to be a
portal to the world of brewing and beer and a going-live date will be
announced soon.

The reasons for this restructuring are to update the price of membership to
more accurately reflect what the costs are per member and to respond to
numerous requests for a family membership for those who brew together but do
not desire to receive multiple copies of Zymurgy to the same household. As
we create greater synergies between AHA and IBS we are seeing increased dual
memberships, and creating a class will suit the needs of homebrewers wishing
to keep in touch with the craft industry and professional craft brewers who
still homebrew.

The price increases for AHA individual members and Canadian members and new
lifetime members, but drops for international members and joint members. A
thumbnail summary on the math shows that we currently develop annual revenue
of $50.50 for each current member (average $28 for dues, $12 from
advertising, Zymurgy sales on newsstands and shops $2.50, programs and
sponsorship $8). On the expenses side we are at $55.25 per member (Zymurgy
$24.50; overhead--rent, database, admin, member services, web--$12.50; other
programs--conference, national and sanctioned competitions, clubs,
legalization $9.25; divisional and support staff not attributed to programs
$5; marketing and renewals $4). We have not kept pace with inflation since
the last price change 6 years ago, and with a smaller membership number now
than 1996, the spread of fixed costs is not as broad.

I encourage all homebrewers to join the AHA to promote the hobby of
homebrewing. AHA keeps people connected to clubs and shops and develops
media and programs which keep the hobby vibrant by bringing new people into
homebrewing. This benefits current brewers by allowing shops to remain open
and ingredient supplies to turn over allowing for better beer from your
fermenters.

Thanks.

Paul Gatza
Director--American Homebrewers Association
Director--Institute for Brewing Studies
Association of Brewers
736 Pearl St., Boulder, CO, USA 80302
+1.303.447.0816 ext. 122
mailto:paul at aob.org
www.beertown.org



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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:00:21 -0700
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Mild Ale : feedback requested

Hi all,

After much thought, I brewed this a couple of days ago.

What do you guys think ? Any comments and constructive criticism are
welcome.

It tastes good so far, but i suspect its too light in colour to fit the
stylistic definition  of a mild. I was going to put more brown sugar but
that was all that was left.
I think it needs more chocolate malt, i later read that milds generally vary
in colour from a dark brown to mahogany colour, and this doesnt look very
dark.. i guess a very light brown maybe. More chocolate malt next time.

the o.g. was 1.034, which appears right on target

1 can/1.5 kg (3.3 lbs) . Glenbrew Light Malt Extract
0.5 kg (about 1.1 lbs) . Light Dry Malt Extract
0.25 kg. 50/50 Crystal Malt (30-40 lovibond) and Carastan Malt
1/2 C. Dark Brown Sugar
1 shot glass full of Chocolate Malt (1 1/2 fl. oz - more or less)
25 g. Kent Goldings (boil)
25 g. Fuggles (finish - 10 min)
2 tsp. Gypsum
1/2 tsp. Irish Moss
Whitelabs Burton Ale Yeast

18L. Batch





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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:12:04 -0400
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Cleaning stainless containers

A while back, someone posted a request for information on cleaning 
stainless steel containers without damaging the protective passivation 
layer.  For several years, I have using a product with the strange name of 
"Zud" to clean my stainless vessels, and I have been very pleased with the 
results.  From what I can tell, Zud is essentially a scouring powder with 
oxalic acid added.  I believe there are other similar products on the 
market.  I use a "Scotchbrite" pad with the Zud, and I have been very 
impressed with how quickly this combination removes soil from my mash tun, 
brew kettle and hot liquor tank, all of which are stainless.  The water 
here in Bel Air, MD contains a lot of temporary hardness, which leaves a 
scum behind after boiling.  That's why I have to clean the hot liquor tank 
as well as the other vessels.  After cleaning, it is important to rinse 
very well, since oxalic acid is poisonous to humans.  It is also important 
to wipe the cleaned surfaces well after rinsing because the process leaves 
behind a residue that shows up black when removed with a paper towel.  The 
stainless is left in a bright, spotless condition, and remains so.  Because 
of the oxalic acid, Zud also removes any rust that might have been present 
due to previous improper cleaning, such as with steel wool.  This cleaning 
combination also does a remarkable job of removing stains from white 
enameled cooking pots.  Around here, Zud is available in supermarkets and 
hardware stores.

Dave



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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:41:22 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: BJCP guidelines 


    Brian> "This is what really bugs me about
    Brian> homebrew contests.  They are not about brewing good beer.
    Brian> They are essentially exercises in conformity.  To me, beer
    Brian> should be judged on its own merits and not according to how
    Brian> well it conforms to some narrow and arbitrary definition"

[Stick tongue firmly in cheek]

Gee, I took my mutt to the dog show, and they told me it wasn't a good
poodle.  But I love my mutt, she's the most wonderful dog in the
world?  I looked at the rules, and my mutt doesn't fit into ANY of the
categories! Why can't dog shows lighten up and stop being so focussed on
conformity?  Why can't they be about how wonderful the dog is?

[Remove tongue from cheek]

=Spencer


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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:53:12 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: DC trip report

I was in DC for a 2-day conference, so I managed to make it to two
brewpubs (both within walking distance of my hotel).  Both had a
pretty weak selection, with many beers "out."

The first night I walked to John Harvard's brew pub.  They had 3 of
their own beers on: an "espresso" porter, a nut brown, and maybe a
wheat beer?  None of these appealed, so I ended up with a nice pint of
Dominion Pale Ale.  They had nothing on cask, even though a cask
selection was advertised, and no seasonal beer (even though one was
advertised).

The next afternoon I walked over to Capitol City.  Again, they had 3
(or maybe 4) of their 7 (or 8?) beers on tap.  I was disappointed that
the Kolsch was out, and elected to try their "Nut Brown."  This was a
decent northern English-style brown ale (dryer than Newcastle and
maltier), but WAY too fizzy.  I had to swirl the beer in my glass
several times to get the fizz down to a tolerable level.

I know that lots of DC brewers are going to write to me and say "but
you SHOULD have visited XXX or YYY."  Maybe so.  But I didn't have the
time to go far, so I did the best I could.  I wasn't getting paid to
drink beer. :-(  And there's always "next time!" :-)

=Spencer



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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:18:40 -0700
From: "Lane, Mark C. (NM)" <MarkC.Lane at voicestream.com>
Subject: Cooler Fermentation Temps

Parker Dutro and others ask about maintaining (or achieving) cooler
fermentation temps.  With all the talk previously about stainless
cylindroconical fermenters, nothing was mentioned about the cooling options
available from morebeer.com (not affiliated and whatever the rest of the
acronym is).  I purchased the 7.1-gallon fermenter with the external cooling
option.  Yes, it was a huge chunk of change.  But, it was tax time and I
received a sizable return and SWMBO let me splurge.  Gotta love her.
Anyhow, this bit of equipment has been the greatest thing.  I live in the
desert southwest.  I did an experiment with one brew to see how much I could
knock off ambient with the chiller.  In 75-degree Fahrenheit ambient, I was
able to get my fermenter (in secondary fermentation) down to 42 degrees!  My
fermentations are great - no matter what the temp, I can (to quote Mr.
Popeil) "set it and forget it" and have consistent 68 degree fermentations.
Of course, there will more than likely be some gradients within the volume;
but, with only 5 gallons of beer in a very well insulated CCF, the gradients
should be minimized.

I fully recommend the set up, if you get a large tax return and don't need
to pay off debt.

Mark Lane
Albuquerque, NM


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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:07:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Amount of Caraffa (in Dark Lager)

I just bottled a Dark Lager...brewed on 3/17/02...2 stage infusion:
        
 [ 10 gal Polarware Mash-lauter tun] so heat can be applied....

9 lb Franco-Belgian Pils Malt 
1.5 lb Flaked rice   (trying to making it somewhat lighter)  
 .5 lb Caraffa II            (made it darker!!)
 .5 lb wheat malt     (head retention,....I think)

2 hour boil   (good to reduce volume...and more)

target gravity was 1.05 

Yeast was the third use of Czech Budovice slurry....

Hops were: .5 oz Perle  at  staart of last 60 min ( what I had..)
          1.0 oz Hallertau  at  30
          same at last 15

First runnings were 1.080
Boil gravity waws 1.047
Original gravity was 1.056

Final Gravity was: 1.014


The question is:  I intended to make this dark in color, but lighter in 
flavor (by using the Caraffa)

BUT, when I tasted the the  hydrometer sample....it tasted more 'roasty'
/dark than I had planned...

Should I have used 1/4 lb of Caraffa II?

Or, should I have used less?

It is good...ie, to me somewhat like a Scwartzbier ( for those of you who are 
true to style...please be patient...

But, simply more roasty than I had planned.

Pete, and others who use Caraffa regularly: Please give me some guidance.

 ..Darrell


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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:48:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Southwold (yeast)

You guys...

Have you used the wlp025?

I just brewed a batch of Blonde Ale...and smelling the airlock is something-
else...if smells VERY floral...


It may be the hops (mostly cascade...)...

Or it may  be the yeast....

Are others using this member of the 'Platinum Series' from WhiteLabs??

 ..Darrell



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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:24:35 -0700
From: Rick Lassabe <bayrat at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Business Bashing????

Brian stated in 3918
"In another forum, Lynne has stated there is a topic here she is dying
to
comment on, but doesn't want to risk putting in an appearance because it

will only bring out the St. Pat's bashers."
  If  Lynne is only concerned that her opinion or expertise won't carry
much merit because she is the owner of a home brew supply house, or that
it may hurt her business,  why can't she just post under the name of
Mark Twain  at  hotmailusa.com ( or something like that). By posting under
another name, she get her point across and no one has to know who she is
or if she owns a business. Now I understand this would only work if the
person truly is only interested in helping their fellow brewer, if there
is an underlying motive to just advertise a business then I guess this
is a stupid idea.
  Now, before someone jumps down my gullet, I don't have a problem with
Lynne, and I am not affiliated with any homebrew shop. I am sure that
most of the 2 row grain I have ever used has come from St. Pat's, via a
friend in Austin. Lynne has just as much a right to post on this forum
as the next person as long as the janitor approves it. I say try posting
under an alias and don't throw St. Pat's in the mix and I would bet her
comments would be received just like anyone else's. Some will agree,
some won't and some just won't give a damn; oh well... that's life.
  My Dad use to say "it doesn't do much good to complain, half the folks
don't care and the other half think you deserve everything you get", so
Lynne let you conscience be your guide. Post or not to post, bashed or
not bashed????
   Oh, and Brian; thank you very much for your "public service" you
provided. I'm just glad you didn't let it slip what the other forum was.
Can you imagine how many of these mean ole St. Pat bashers would have
enjoyed the gratification of bashing on another forum???
Rick Lassabe (WB5OTX)
Bayrat's Bayou Degradable Brewery




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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:29:22 -0700
From: "Michael J. Westcott" <mikew at sedona.net>
Subject: Re: Hefeweizen mash schedule

Len, I still do the protein rest, but i have also limited it to 20 minutes.
Whether the malts are well-modified or not, it seems to me that the
rest helps to maximize amino acid levels in the wort and aid in problem-
free lautering.  I've used Warner's mash schedule in Diagram #3 of his
Beer styles book successfully many times, and I can tell you my most recent
effort has a dense, thick, meringue-like head, the protein rest
surely is not hurting the head formation in this brew.  I also typically
bottle from the primary after 4-5 days of cold conditioning in the primary
vessel after late krausen. On another note, I'm curious about the hefe yeast
that other brewers are using.  For the last 4 hefes I've done, i've used the
white labs yeast(WLP300).  I just cannot seem to get the flavor I used to
get from Wyeast Weihenstephen.  Advice from White labs is to increase the
fermentation temps to the high range of what is acceptable to increase the
esters, I'm going to try it next time, but if it doesn't work, I'm going
back to Wyeast.
Hope some of this helps.

Mike Westcott



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