HOMEBREW Digest #3920 Sat 20 April 2002

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  RIMS ramp rates ("Dave Howell")
  re:Fermentation Temperature Control ("Parker Dutro")
  High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36 ("Gregor Zellmann")
  Klein & Synaesthesia ("Charles R. Stewart")
  AHA Memberships ("John Misrahi")
  Sparge pH (AJ)
  RIMS Heater limitation (Tony Verhulst)
  RE: Adventures in Bottling ("Walker, Randy")
  AHA International Membership Question ("Paul Gatza")
  RIMS Heater limitation ("Kent Fletcher")
  Bad RIMS performance ("Schrempp, Michael")
  AHA-price gouging, afraid to post opposing viewpoints ("jps")
  Re: Ice Stabilization (Scott Murman)
  Homer and the weasels (Frank Tutzauer)
  Sparge rates (Paddock Wood Customer Service)
  Dark DME ("David Craft")

* * 10th annual Spirit of Free Beer entry deadline is 5/11/02 * Details at http://www.burp.org/events/sofb/2002/ * * 2002 Bay Area Brew Off entry deadline is 5/20/2002 * Details: http://www.draughtboard.org/babopage.htm * * Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! * http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:04:47 -0700 From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at cableaz.com> Subject: RIMS ramp rates In HBD #3919 Steven Parfitt wrote: "I'm using a 4500W 240VAC heating element on single phase 115vac (60hz)line for the heat source. ... I ran a 7.5 Gallon test run starting at 63F. In a half hour it was only up to 83F, which gives a temp rise of only 0.67F/min, or 0.37C/min." Well, Steve, it's like this: I use a 5kW element, same situation, 120VAC (I must be closer to the substation, huh?). I get ramp rates of 0.95 deg F/min. Insulating (heck, just using a lid on the mash tun) got me this much performance. All I used was some reflective wrap around the RIMS chamber. I don't really think you want to deliver more heat, or at least not without process control on the delta-T across the chamber, for fear of scorching. I've about given up on this holy grail... and finding close to 1 deg F/min and manual control is just fine for my step mashes. 'Course, around here (Metro Phoenix) in the summer, I don't lose heat to the ambient environment... Dave Howell Mesa, AZ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:46:41 -0700 From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com> Subject: re:Fermentation Temperature Control Jim, I checked out your site with the fermentation cooler you built. WOW! That's a beautiful machine you have birthed. It looks like it could use some blinking Christmas lights or neon strips along the outside. Maybe just some glitter... But seriously, it's quite impressive. I think I feel more comfortable attempting to construct the Son of fermentation chiller by Ken Schwartz, not because it looks more capable, but because the process is not so frightening! Chill on, man. Parker Dutro P-town Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:18:28 +0200 From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de> Subject: High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36 Fello Brewers, yesterday I came across the very interesting website of the "Brewing Science Institute" BSI. ( http://www.brewingscience.com/ ) On their yeast listings I found: "L36 High-pressure Lager average apparent attenuation, medium flocculation, broad fermentation range Produces an authentic-tasting, mature lager beer in about a week. Ferments at room temperature under 15psi until final gravity is reached.Conditioned at near-freezing temperatures under 15psi for a few more days. Should not be repitched, but rather propagated fresh every time." A lager in a week? Sounds definitely interesting. Did anybody use and experiment with this strain? Is it a Saccaromyces Cerevisiae strain at all? What is the origin of this yeast? What stands the L for? How does beer fermented with that strain taste? I use heavy duty plastic fermenters, which could stand that pressure. I would only have to develop and attach a spring-valve that releases pressure above the 15 psi. That should not be a big problem. cheers Gregor Berlin, Germany Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:22:43 -0400 From: "Charles R. Stewart" <Charles at TheStewarts.com> Subject: Klein & Synaesthesia On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, "James Sploonta" <biere_god at hotmail.com> >> For instance, not many would associate the term "mouthfeel" with bitterness or sweetness. Those are flavors. I have less difficulty with his wanton destruction of the meaning of the term "body" (to us, a class of "mouthfeel" descriptors - light, thin, rich, heavy, watery...) by using it to describe the physical touch-feel-see instantiation of the brew, but even this does not fit with our beer culture.<< Synaesthesia! That's the Klein's problem. He has that rare neurological condition that allows him to taste colors and feel flavors. I just plugged the two spellings into Google (synaesthesia and synesthesia) and came up with 12,700 and 22,600 fascinating links, respectively. These included The American Synesthesia Association - http://www.multimediaplace.com/asa/, and some other interesting ones - http://www.ncu.edu.tw/~daysa/synesthesia.htm and http://www.lunarium.net/synesthesia/syn.htm. Now the only question is whether this is naturally occurring or is of a chemical origin (hashish, peyote, ketamine, etc.). Case solved. Now it's time for a nice, loud beer. Chip Stewart Charles at TheStewarts.com http://Charles.TheStewarts.com Pursuant to United States Code, Title 47, chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, any and all unsolicited commercial e-mail (spam) sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee of US$500.00. The sending or forwarding of such e-mail constitutes acceptance of these terms. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:48:06 -0700 From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca> Subject: AHA Memberships I too was considering getting a membership with the AHA, I am a Canadian brewer. I went to the sign up page and was quite disappointed, and I have to agree with this previous post below. I will not be joining either. John Misrahi Montreal, CANADA Could it be that you are eliminating the Canadian membership class simply because of your inability to spell the word correctly? We find two occurrences of the letter 'n' to be quite sufficient for our purposes. In all seriousness, I can accept Canadian rates going up to better cover your costs. However, it appears by combining the classes you are having Canadian members subsidize the costs of international memberships. Unless I hear back from you with a valid rationale for this, I shall be writing a letter to CABA (our association), and posting in brewing forums (such as this) encouraging all Canadians to discontinue their memberships in the AHA. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:50:58 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Sparge pH For Arnaud, It's not surprising that adding calcium chloride and gypsum to your sparge water doesn't lower the pH much . In fact if you see any change at all it would probably be due to increased ionic strength. Calcium and magnesium lower pH in the mash tun because they react with malt phosphate and we hope that your mains water hasn't enough phosphate to cause a pH shift. You shouldn't really need to lower sparge water pH if you keep an eye on runoff gravity and terminate collection at about 2 P or you can monitor runoff pH and terminate when you get uncomfortable. This should start to happen at about 2 P. Certainly you can lower sparge water pH with mineral or organic acids. If you have decarbonated the sparge water it shouldn't take much. Ken Schwarz pounted out to me several years ago that the handiest acid for treatment of sparge water, and one with no objection flavor from the cation, is a little dry malt extract. Depending on the alkalinity left in your water after decarbonation it should only take a few tbsp to acidify the volume of sparge water. BTW, if you see this Ken, I was questioned by a pro brewer at the CBC last week who was trying to acidify sparge water with gypsum and I suggested this same trick - add some early runoff to the sparge water. - -- A.J. deLange CT Project Manager Zeta Associates 10302 Eaton Place Fairfax, VA 22030 (703) 359 8696 855 0905 ajdel at mindspring.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:48:45 -0400 From: Tony Verhulst <verhulst at zk3.dec.com> Subject: RIMS Heater limitation From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> > I test fired my RIMS heater that I added to my brewery the other > night, and was rather dissapointed in the temp ramp capibility I > achieved. I'm using a 4500W 240VAC heating element on single phase > 115vac (60hz)line for the heat source. > Actual measured voltage at the element terminals is 109VAC > (the rest is lost in line loss, TRIAC drop, circuit breaker drop, > etc. I ran a 7.5 Gallon test run starting at 63F. In a half hour it > was only up to 83F, which gives a temp rise of only 0.67F/min, or 0.37C/min. This sounds about right. With my electric powered heat exchanger (http://www.world.std.com/~verhulst/RIMS/rims.htm) running 4500 watts at (measured) 236VAC (slightly more than 4 times your power) I see a 3F/min temp rise under similar conditions. > It will take roughly 30 minutes to ramp 10C. Yup! > Is this going to be a fast enough ramp to do multi step mashes? Pretty marginal, isn't it? Most 120VAC RIMS systems I've seen are no larger than 5 gallon capacity. Tony Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:03:03 -0600 From: "Walker, Randy" <Walkerr at littongcs.com> Subject: RE: Adventures in Bottling The Primetab site says to use 3 to 5 tablets per bottle. How many did you use? Randy Walker Northrop Grumman Navigation Systems Division Salt Lake City, UT 801-539-1200, X-7484 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:13:52 -0600 From: "Paul Gatza" <paul at aob.org> Subject: AHA International Membership Question Brian asks if the increased cost on AHA memberships in Canada is subsidizing a lower international membership rate for other members. The answer is no, and perhaps the fees for international members have been slightly reducing everyone else's cost over the years. There is more to the cost than just the international shipping surcharges. There is a separate list we have to run for the printer, which adds to our administrative costs, and we are charged by our printer (who ships the magazine for us as well) beyond the difference in the beneficial bulk shipping rate we receive on the domestic copies. Thanks to you and Pat for the heads up on the spelling error on www.beertown.org. As a passionate ice hockey fan, I have always used the rule of thumb that the team is the "Canadiens" with an "e" and all other uses are "Canadians" with an "a." "Canandians" fits neither of these choices and I'll submit a web request to change it on the site. I certainly mean no slight. In fact, the Canadian national anthem is one of two songs I am willing to sing in public. (Why does everyone leave the area when I sing?) We rely on our members to catch web issues like this--which we often miss because we are so close to the content and do not always see it for what it really says. If you see any other site errors, please let Gary Glass know at (www.gary at aob.org). We currently are fixing up a couple of errors on the legalization section brought to our attention by members. On a side note, keep up the brewing in Canada. I know it is not always easy to get quality ingredients, as the supply side of the industry there tends to cater less to beermakers than to winemakers--not that I have anything against winemaking, it would just be nice to have better access to fresher supplies with more selection for brewers. In talking with several Canadian supply shop owners in Niagara Falls, Canada in 2000, they indicated that many supply shops do not carry base grains or grain at all in some cases. Paul Gatza Director--American Homebrewers Association Director--Institute for Brewing Studies Association of Brewers 736 Pearl St., Boulder, CO, USA 80302 +1.303.447.0816 ext. 122 mailto:paul at aob.org www.beertown.org Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:04:22 -0700 From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com> Subject: RIMS Heater limitation Steven, Off the top of my head, I would think you are going to need to expand your rims chamber to run a second element the same size as the first. You achieved 2/3 degree F./minute on your test, 1 degree F. per minute is a more desirable rate. To raise 7.5 gallons of water one degree F. per minute at sea level requires something around 3800 btu/hr heat input. While a single derated element would be adequate fo 5 gallon batches (it has been for several RIMSers on this board), your declared mash of 20 liters and 20 pounds (can't commit to either English or Metric, can you?) is a healthy 10 gallon brew. Double the thermal mass, double the heat input. Shouldn't be too hard to expand your heater. Presuming you used threaded fittings, all you need is a coupling (or elbow, you could "bend" your heater if you have a linear space limitation) and a second nipple the same length as the original. And the second element, of course. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:56:40 -0700 From: "Schrempp, Michael" <michael.schrempp at intel.com> Subject: Bad RIMS performance Steven Parfitt writes: "I test fired my RIMS heater that I added to my brewery the other night, and was rather dissapointed in the temp ramp capibility I achieved. I'm using a 4500W 240VAC heating element on single phase 115vac (60hz)line for the heat source. Actual measured voltage at the element terminals is 109VAC (the rest is lost in line loss, TRIAC drop, circuit breaker drop, etc. I ran a 7.5 Gallon test run starting at 63F. In a half hour it was only up to 83F, which gives a temp rise of only 0.67F/min, or 0.37C/min. I choose 7.5 gallons to simulate 20L water and 20# grain. The Specific heat of grain being much less than water. It will take roughly 30 minutes to ramp 10C. At 109V, the power of you element should be (109/240)*4500 = 2044W = 2044 J/sec Specific heat of water is 4184 J/KgC You have 7.5 gallons of water = 75.6 L of water = 75.6Kg of water So the specific heat of your whole experiment is 4184 * 75.6 = 316310 J/C With you heater running at 2044J/sec, you get 2044/316310 = 0.0065 C/sec = .387 C/min This matches what you saw. I think that your assumption for your simulation is wrong. Using 75.6 L of water to simulate 20L water plus 20# of grain means that you are using 55.6L of that water to simulate the 20# of grain. 55.6L of water is 25#. You've got way too much water. The specific heat of malted barley is about 1200 J/kg C (ref hbd # 3882). You should have used 1200/4184 = 29% of the grain weight, or 5.73lb = 12.6L. Now, with 20L of water and 12.6L of water to simulate the grain, you get a total specific heat of 4184 * (20+12.6) =136398J/C. With your heater running at 2044 j/sec you get 2044/136398 = 0.0015C/sec = .9C/minute Mike Schrempp Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:58:53 -0400 From: "jps" <segedy at gsinet.net> Subject: AHA-price gouging, afraid to post opposing viewpoints The below statement was denied posting on Techtalk. This censorship is even more offensive than the price raising itself. As far as the offer to subscribe for 3 years in advance, sounds like $ down the tube, what happens to the $ if bankruptcy hits?? Well the begining of the end is here. Just a few monthes ago when the subject came up the people indicated a desire for a cheper more limited membership. And what did we get? Higher prices. Perhaps we could have increased membership. Oh well... R.I.P. AHA. I for one will not be renewing. One true point made by Mr Gatzas : People should direct their energies into the hobby of homebrewing. I will and when my subscriptipn expires I will look to fellow homebrewers on HBD for information. Perhaps I ill start contributing some of my saved money to their server fund. John Segedy Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:53:15 -0400 From: Scott Murman <smurman at segosha.net> Subject: Re: Ice Stabilization > While re-reading G. Fix's (RIP-we all miss him) Principles of > Brewing Science I ran across the section on Ice Stabilization on > p. 149 and the concept is unique to me (and in the HB world it seems > as well - I did some searches in the archives and found nothing) > although it seems to have many benefits. <big ol snip> surprised you couldn't find anything in the archives, 'cause we did go over this, and probably more than once. if you're really interested in this subject i would suggest going straight to the brewing journals for the how/where/why, and skip Fix's stuff. my personal opinion is that it's not something you want to bother with as a homebrewer. the crystallization process is indiscriminate - it will remove stuff you want as well as stuff you don't want - and it's also hard to control with homebrew equipment (how were you going to stop the freezing at X%? which cooling process to promote crystal formation were you going to use?) the big boys don't have these problems as they don't have much left that we'd want to keep, and they're not overly concerned about keeping it anyway. they also have large line items in their budgets for capital expenditure, and if it will improve the bottom line (longer shelf life, more consistent product), they're all for it. i think the folks selling bottled water may have already beaten them to the ultimate beverage product however. -SM- Redwood City, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:34:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu> Subject: Homer and the weasels Biffy the Brewer wrote of Lynne: >Of course if she did that, the "weasels" would criticize her for >being "dishonest". She can't win with the weasel-types. Hey, hey, ease up there. Weaseling is what separates us from the animals. Well, except for weasels. Doh! Homer Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 18:34:26 -0600 From: Paddock Wood Customer Service <experts at paddockwood.com> Subject: Sparge rates Ryan asks for help with his sparge rate, in his 2nd use of his new all grain system. There are far more qualified folks to deal with sparge and flow rates (John Palmer, where are you?), so I will just suggest that many folks find not worrying about details like sparge rates is a good reason to use the batch sparge method. Plus you get better beer, and it's simpler. I get evangelical about it so I'll stop now, and just post this link: http://www.paddockwood.com/guide_batch_sparging.html Batch sparging! It will save your time, it will save your beer, .... right, I was going to stop... Hope this helps, Ryan, even if it's not quite what you asked for! cheers, Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiis sugant." Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK, Canada experts at paddockwood.com www.paddockwood.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:38:29 -0400 From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net> Subject: Dark DME Greetings, I have come across some Dark DME, 9 lbs to be exact. The color is 60 EBC................ This is not something I would normally buy. The best way to get rid of it, Russian Imperial Stout! Any other ideas? Since I have not used this type of DME except in small quantities, any idea of how it would fit into a RIS recipe. How much would I cut back on the Roasted, Black, or Chocolate malts or would I? I have Promash, but I need some guidance here. Thanks for any input................ David B. Craft Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery Greensboro, NC Return to table of contents
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