---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  bottling: overfiller => undercarbonated. ("Steve Alexander")
  Bad RIMS calcs ("Kent Fletcher")
  Re: Ice Stabilization/HSA problems ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: constant sparge flow rate ("Arnold Neitzke")
  Low Alcohol Beer (George Fergusson)
  primetabs (Joe Yoder)
  AHA Membership ("Carrol McCracken")


*
* 10th annual Spirit of Free Beer entry deadline is 5/11/02
* Details at http://www.burp.org/events/sofb/2002/
*
* 2002 Bay Area Brew Off entry deadline is 5/20/2002
* Details: http://www.draughtboard.org/babopage.htm
*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:24:43 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: bottling: overfiller => undercarbonated.

Mark Anderson writes ...

>[...] after three weeks, there isn't a hint of carbonation.  Not
>a puff.  The problem may be that I didn't allow headspace in the neck of
>the bottle.

Parker Dutro adds

>I do know that a head space of an inch or so allows the yeast to utilize
the
>trapped O2 in their conversion of the sugar and production of CO2 (not sure
>how), and for some reason no headspace can prevent full carbonation.


Headspace is the problem Mark.   If you check the HBD archives you'll find
that Al Korzonas and I discussed this phenomena at length several years
back.
Overfilled bottles undercarbonate or perhaps carbonate only very slowly.
Yeast & oxidation processes will use any O2 in the headspace - but this is
unrelated to the overfilled => undercarbonated phenomena.

Why this happens is one of the unsolved mysteries of homebrewing.
    Smaller headspace ->
    higher head pressure (before equilibrium) ->
    poorer bottle fermentation
is a working hypothesis - but lacks evidence and this explanation has
some problems.

 -S



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:31:55 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Bad RIMS calcs

In assessing Steven Parfitt's RIMS test, Michael Schrempp wrote:

"At 109V, the power of you element should be (109/240)*4500 = 2044W =  2044
J/sec"

This is not correct.  The actual power of a 240 v 4500 watt element running
at 109 v is about 930 watts.  Solve for resistance of the element on order
to derive power at other than rated voltage.

Michael continues: "You have 7.5 gallons of water = 75.6 L of water = 75.6Kg
of water"

While 75.6 liters of water does weigh 75.6 kilograms, 7.5 GALLONS of water =
28.3875 liters, hence 28.3875 kilos.  So, in fact Steven's simulation
probably simulated something closer to 13.5 pounds of grain in 20 liters of
water.

The bottom line is, Steven's RIMS is WAY underpowered for anything larger
than 5 gallon batches.  I assume Steven is using the larger element at the
lower voltage to lower the watt density to avoid carmelization and scaling.
You have a few choices: 1. Add a second similarly sized element, as I
mentioned in #3920. 2. Replace the element with a 120 volt  low watt density
model like Grainger # 2E754 at 1600 watts and keep the flow rate high enogh
to avoid scorching. 3. Go to 240 volt, increasing the size of your RIMS
chamber to hold Grainger # 2E673, this is one of their "Water Wizard" models
with a nickel alloy sheath, and the element doubles back on itself to
achieve ultra low watt density.  4. Hook up your present element to 240 v
and use PWM to drive a solid state relay, then tune the pulse rate to a
sweet spot between rapid delta t and scorching.  And have a cold one.  (Or
do like me and go to HERMS!)





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 04:48:43 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ice Stabilization/HSA problems

Scott Murman comments

>>  Ice Stabilization [...]  the concept is unique to me (and in the HB
>>world it seems as well [...]

Hardly - HBers have been making eisbock by a similar process for
many years and claiming softer flavor and better stability.

>surprised you couldn't find anything in the archives, 'cause we did go
>over this, and probably more than once.  if you're really interested
>in this subject i would suggest going straight to the brewing journals
>for the how/where/why, and skip Fix's stuff.

Same here - it is in the archives under eisbock.
Kunze has a great description of the process and it's advantages - and
it's a good book for any HBer interested in how the modern Germans
brew.

>my personal opinion is that it's not something you want to bother with
>as a homebrewer.  the crystallization process is indiscriminate - it
>will remove stuff you want as well as stuff you don't want 

I have only used this process 3 or 4 times, but never had any control
problems.   If you freeze too much you can allow it to warm a little and 
try again - quite easy.  If you are freezing a corny or whatever - you
can wrap the tank in bubble wrap (or whatever) to modulate the heat
flow.  If you let it freeze solid it will expand, overflow and make a mess.

The "trick" is to avoid quick freezing.   If you do it right the ice you
remove will have only a small amount of flavor and color - water with  
a little phenolics & yeast and whisp of trubby stuff.  The ice sinks btw so
it's simple to rack off the beer.  My experience was in removing 5-10%
of the volume as ice after 2-3 day chilling period.  

At one of my local club meetings a few years ago I was served a light
bodied dark colored 'beer' and was told that this that the melted ice
extracted from an eisbock! Now that brewer obviously froze the beer
fast and made a mess of the extraction.

Kunze suggests (except for eisbocks) that after ice removal the fermenter
be topped with pH adjusted water so the beer maintains a constant ABV%.

The resulting beers have a much softer  mouthfeel, which is good in
moderation, but bad in excess as Scott implied.  It won't correct an
overly phenolic beer either - I tried this with a too-rye beer once and it
was an interesting experiment but a failure.
============
alastair  writes ...

>I always
>considered HSA as the brewing equivalent of an urban legend and paid it
>little attention.  [...]  I also collect my runnings in a separate
>container and pour it from a good height into my kettle in what I now
>call the 'salute to those who believe in HSA'.  So far I've not noticed
>any oxidation problems [...]

There's a difference between ignorance and not having a latent
oxidation problem (and you shouldn't be so proud of the former).
I suspect you've never tried to tell the difference Alistair.

Tell you what - place a couple of your bottled beers in a warm spot 
(40C for a week, or 30C for 3 weeks ) while keeping some controls
chilled.  The temperature boost accelerates the aging processes that
have begun with the introduction of oxygen,and culminate with the
development of unpleasant changes to flavor compounds.  Then 
chill all the beers to identical temps.  Call over a few friends and
perform a triangle tasting of the control vs accelerated aged samples.
Try a bock or marzen - they work quite nicely.  The flavor
differences should be obvious.  Once sensitized to the changes
you'll have less difficulty identifying staling in the future.
Some of the better studied oxidation processes are accelerated so
that one week  at 40C is about the same as 3 months at cellar temps.

>I think someone should point out that if HSA is a real effect, it is so
>subtle that no one need worry about it. 

Yeah - aldehydes, fading hop bitterness and a caramel note
never develop in HB.  All HBs taste identically the same at
week 4 and week 15 because it's soooo bloody stable and
there are no oxidation changes in the bottle. That's the urban
legend Alistair.  Major portions of these flavor changes are
due to oxidation.

 -S




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 06:18:44 -0400
From: "Arnold Neitzke" <arnold_neitzke at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: constant sparge flow rate

> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:25:38 -0500
> From: "Ryan and Shelly" <furstenau at worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: constant sparge flow rate
>
<SNIP>
> If the solution is to keep the tube out of the wort, how do I avoid hot
side
> areation?  Do I keep the tube pressed up against the side of the kettle?
>
> Please help.  My 1st sparge took almost 90 minutes.  I would like to shoot
> for 45 minutes.
>
> Ryan, Omaha, NE, USA

Ryan

It sounds like you have solved your own problem.  Put a float on the end of
your hose and as the level comes up the end of your hose will too.

Arnold Neitzke
Brighton Mi (a close satellite to the center of the brewing universe :)



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:51:41 -0400
From: George Fergusson <gsferg at clary.gwi.net>
Subject: Low Alcohol Beer

Hi All-

Does anyone have any experience with brewing low-alcohol or no-alcohol beers? 
I'm talking ABV percentages in the 0.5% to 1.5% range. I'm sure this has been 
discussed before but I went to search the HBD archives this morning only to 
receive a "Syntax error at offset.." error. I've been discussing this on the 
UK-HOMEBREW list but haven't received any suggestions from anyone who has 
tried doing this.

My goal is to brew some of my favorite bitters and pale ales with all the 
flavor, body, hops, and appeal of the originals but with a fraction of the 
alcohol. My reasons are that I really like to brew and drink Good Beer but 
could do with a lot less alcohol in my diet.

What I'm thinking of doing is brewing a "regular" 5UK gallon batch with a 
finished ABV of around 4% and when it's been in the secondary a while, racking 
3/4 of it into my cooker, heating it up gently to drive off the alcohol.. when 
the alcohol is gone, pour it back in the secondary and let it finish up. This 
would leave me with 25% of the original alcohol, or about 1% ABV. There should 
still be enough yeast in the beer to bottle condition- if not I suppose I can 
pitch a bit more at bottling.

Figuring out when the alcohol is gone is a bit problematic, but I think I can 
periodically check the specific gravity to see what kind of progress I've made 
since the SG will rise as the alcohol is driven off- when it stops rising, 
theoretically the alcohol is gone but of course, should I keep heating it 
beyond that point, the evaporation of water itself will cause the specific 
gravity to continue to rise, so it seems like there is some guesswork 
required. I'd expect the rate of change of the SG would change (drop) once the 
alcohol was gone.

Another way to solve this problem would be to capture and condense the vapor 
and taste it, though at the risk of becoming seriously inebriated which is of 
course, the exact opposite effect I'm looking to achieve with this exercise :) 
Then again, the Scotch in me cringes at the thought of vanishing all that 
perfectly good alcohol into the atmosphere so perhaps I'll build a still 
anyways- I can always run my car on it..

Sound reasonable? One concern I have is driving off other volatiles along with
the alcohol, like hop oils, and any other effects on flavor from heating up
fermented beer. I suppose that will take some experimentation.

Suggestions?

George-
- ----------------
George Fergusson
Whitefield Maine




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:59:44 -0500
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: primetabs

Randy Walker asks:  The Primetab site says to use 3 to 5 tablets per
bottle.
How many did you use?

Randy, I have had the best luck using 2 1/2 tabs per 12 oz. bottle.  Two
seemed undercarbonated and 3 was overcarbonated.  Maybe we could talk
Domenick into making a 1/2 size tab??

Joe Yoder
Lawrence, KS



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 17:34:51 -0500
From: "Carrol McCracken" <carrolmccracken at mchsi.com>
Subject: AHA Membership

Here is another example of a business looking at their expenses and then
dividing it by their current membership number to come up with the fee they
want to charge.  I sure hope (but I would be surprised) someone with the AHA
understands and considered economic demand curves.  Simple indirect
relationship, price goes up, demand will usually fall, so they could end up
with the same amount of income as before or sometimes even less until
equilibrium is reached.   I wouldn't make any bets on them increasing their
revenue just yet.




Return to table of contents

---