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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: primetabs (Robert Marshall)
  Getting Serious ("Phil Yates")
  Yet more adventures in bottling (Rusty)
  Low Alcohol Beer (Ken Schwartz)
  Re: primetabs (Demonick)
  Re: High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36 (Jeff Renner)
  Re: RIMS choices (Tony Verhulst)
  A very interesting microscope to view yeast and other stuff! ("Hodges, Walt")
  Hello again! ("Todd Kirby")
  Koehler Beer (FRASERJ)
  Re: HSA problems ("Larry Bristol")
  water retained by grains (Rob Dewhirst)
  Crystal Malt Powder ("Jack Schmidling")
  Re: AHA-price gouging, afraid to post opposing viewpoints ("Kate porter")
  RE: AHA (Brian Lundeen)
  holiday ale/spices ("James R Bain    B Elizabeth")


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Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Marshall <robertjm1 at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: primetabs

Go to your local Long's Drugs (or whatever
is in your area) and in the pharmacy
dept. they should have a pill splitter
available. 

Just put the primetab in it and come down
with the lid. It has a knife in it that
will cut it in half.

Robert

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:59:44 -0500
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: primetabs

Randy Walker asks:  The Primetab site
says to use 3 to 5 tablets per bottle.
How many did you use?

Randy, I have had the best luck
using 2 1/2 tabs per 12 oz. bottle.  
Two seemed undercarbonated and 3
was overcarbonated.  Maybe we could talk
Domenick into making a 1/2 size tab??


=====
Robert Marshall
NNY Brewing Co. (NO, not N. New York, No-Name-Yet!)
[6653.5, 339.5] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:22:01 +1000
From: "Phil Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Getting Serious

I note Steve Alexander having a bit of a go at Alistair for his comments on
HSA, or rather his disregard of it. I haven't yet heard anything more about
my comments on oxygenated sparge water. Jeff Renner did send me something
privately and suggested hot water will not easily be oxygenated. This may be
so but the water did not start out being hot and unless it is boiled, I
can't imagine hot water stripping the oxygen out.

Steve suggests an experiment heating bottles and keeping a chilled control.
This would be a good experiment and I suspect the results would be as Steve
anticipates. Why would they not be?

One of the great things about it (in my opinion) and as Steve points out,
homebrew is not stable. I, like Steve, enjoy the changes as the weeks
progress.

My post about sparge water may have had some tongue in cheek components (not
like me to be like that!) but still it was a serious question. As far as I
can see, my procedure and that of probably many other brewers allows
oxygenated (and possibly highly so) sparge water to run into the mash.
Lautering usually takes me a good hour, plenty of time for oxidation to
occur in my mash tun.

You may remember Dave Burley got so serious about it he took to boiling in
his kettle with the lid partially on, to avoid oxidation of his boiling
wort.

When and where or at what point do you stop worrying about all of this? I
wouldn't recommend Alistair's idea of throwing things around from a great
height. That isn't sensible brewing procedure. I glean from Steve's comments
he accepts that one way or the other oxygen is going to get at our beer.

 So simply get on with the business of using sensible brewing procedures to
minimise ill effects. Now I suspect Steve is going to mutter to himself
"Hell Phil, that's all I've been saying, you dumb Ozzie dick!".

But reading between the lines of my off beat posts, that's all I've been
saying too.

Cheers
Phil



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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 04:45:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rusty <kahuna_kapu at yahoo.com>
Subject: Yet more adventures in bottling

With Sunshine Challenge just around the corner, I decided to enter some
of the dry stout I have in the keg.  Mind you, it's been there for some
time, so carbonation is finished.

I tried to use a counter-pressure bottle filler, much to the
entertainment of friends and family nearby.  I couldn't get it to
siphon, and when I finally pushed beer, there was only foam.  Of
course, there was the obligatory mess when I mixed up the valving
order.

Is there an art to this that they aren't publishing?

Russell "Rusty" Gates
Orlando, FL




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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 05:59:17 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Low Alcohol Beer

George Fergussin asks:

"Does anyone have any experience with brewing low-alcohol or no-alcohol
beers? I'm talking ABV percentages in the 0.5% to 1.5% range."

I played around with this a few years ago and posted a summary at
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer .  Hope that helps!

- --
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
Fermentation Chillers and More:  http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com




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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 07:19:44 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: primetabs

Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:59:44 -0500 Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
>I have had the best luck using 2 1/2 tabs per 12 oz. bottle.  Two
>seemed undercarbonated and 3 was overcarbonated.  Maybe we could talk
>Domenick into making a 1/2 size tab??

It seems that most people are using 4 primetabs per 12 oz. bottle.  I
personally use 3 on very flat green beer (I'm a brutal yeast rouser).
This yields a British draught carbonation level.  

Chances are more likely that a 1000 mg scored oval tablet will be the first 
product "enhancement", with 125 per package.  However, nothing is writ in
stone and another manufacturing run is some time away.

Thank you for your interest in PrimeTab.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com




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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:54:52 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36

"Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de> writes from Berlin about :

>"L36 High-pressure Lager
>average apparent attenuation, medium flocculation, broad fermentation
>range
>
>Produces an authentic-tasting, mature lager beer in about a week. Ferments
>at room temperature under 15psi until final gravity is reached.Conditioned
>at near-freezing temperatures under 15psi for a few more days. Should not be
>repitched, but rather propagated fresh every time."
>
>A lager in a week?
>
>Sounds definitely interesting. Did anybody use and experiment with this
>strain? Is it a Saccaromyces Cerevisiae strain at all?
>What is the origin of this yeast? What stands the L for?
>
>How does beer fermented with that strain taste?

I know that 4-5 years ago Dan McConnell here in Ann Arbor had such a 
strain, and Bill Holmes was going to set up a 15 psi pressure valve 
on a Corney to test this yeast, but I'm not sure if he or anyone else 
in AABG did do it.  I will check and report back if there were any 
results.  I believe that I fermented a lager with it at normal 
pressures and temperatures with unremarkable results - that is, 
normal lager flavor.*

I am pretty sure it is a S. cerevisiae strain.  I seem to remember 
Dan saying that it was becoming fairly popular with German commercial 
brewers.  The reasons would be obvious.  However, I am a 
traditionalist, not a commercial brewer, and I prefer the old 
fashioned way of fermenting lagers.

I suspect that the "L" simply stands for lager.

* - just found my records.  I brewed two batches at normal lager 
temperatures with YCKC's L36 high pressure lager yeast in 1997.  The 
results were NOT unremarkable in that a CAP I brewed in June, 1997 
and fermented with this yeast at 50F (10C) took Best of Show in the 
1997 Michigan State Fair.  I repitched the yeast from this (this 
would be OK with non-pressure fermentations) in a Dunkel which turned 
out fine.  It was slow to start as the repitched yeast was old.

So this yeast is produced fine results at one atmosphere pressure and 
10 degrees C.  I'll still try to find out if anyone pressure 
fermented with it.

BTW, I wonder if with the same "L-36" designation if the YCKC is the 
original US source for this strain.  I believe that Dan got it 
directly from Germany, I think from Herr Durst of Durst Malting when 
he was visiting GW Kent.

Jeff

- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:12:08 -0400
From: Tony Verhulst <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS choices



> .... Replace the element with a 120 volt  low watt density
model like Grainger # 2E754 at 1600 watts and keep the flow rate high
enogh
to avoid scorching. 

This is a delicate balancing act IMHO. You want the flow rate high
enough to prevent scorching but not high enough to compact the grain
bed. In a worst case situation, like 70% wheat 30% barley, it probably
can't be done.

(Or do like me and go to HERMS!)

and me ! :-). Scorching is simply not an issue.

Tony V
http://www.world.std.com/~verhulst/RIMS/rims.htm


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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:43:05 -0500
From: "Hodges, Walt" <whodges at teamists.com>
Subject: A very interesting microscope to view yeast and other stuff!

I have just purchased at $48.52 (U.S.) a very nice microscope - warning:
no viewing optics - it uses your computer screen (with included
software).  SO if you are looking to obtain a microscope, this might be
a good purchase.  (The usual: no affiliation, no ownership, etc.)
applies.  Just a happy client.  If interested, please visit the original
posting on slash dot ( a computer geek news medium):
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/21/1719259


Thanks,

Walt Hodges



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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:55:41 -0400
From: "Todd Kirby" <tkirby at neuralsignals.com>
Subject: Hello again!

Well, I've been off the list for several years, but I'm back! For anyone
that remembers me, I'm now in Atlanta...moved from NC in 2000. I'm ready to
brew again, and I'm hoping that someone can steer me in the right direction.
I'm looking for good homebrew supply stores in the Atlanta metro area? Also,
which microbreweries in this area should I visit?
Hope this finds everyone well. Any old members from the Winston-Salem
Worthogs, feel free to email me so we can catch up!
It's good to be back!

Todd Kirby, Ph.D.
Research Neurophysiologist
Neural Signals, Inc.
430 10th Street, Ste N-009
Atlanta, GA 30318





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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:52:30 -0400
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: Koehler Beer

Having a girlfriend, of last name Koehler, she is way interested in seeing
if I can get a recipe of this old brand!  There is some attempt to revive
the brewery in PA, where her family originated from early in the 1900's.

If anyone knows of a Koehler recipe, please send it to me!

John M. Fraser




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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:52:00 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: HSA problems

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:15:43 -0400, "Steve Alexander"
<steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>There's a difference between ignorance and not having a latent
>oxidation problem (and you shouldn't be so proud of the former).
>I suspect you've never tried to tell the difference Alistair.
><...snip...>
>Yeah - aldehydes, fading hop bitterness and a caramel note
>never develop in HB.  All HBs taste identically the same at
>week 4 and week 15 because it's soooo bloody stable and
>there are no oxidation changes in the bottle. That's the urban
>legend Alistair.  Major portions of these flavor changes are
>due to oxidation.

I am somewhat surprised and disappointed in the hostile attitude I
sense in your posting.  I hope you are having a better day today.

At any rate, neither Alistair nor anyone else in this forum have
suggested that oxidation is not a major problem in the shelf life of
beer, both commercial and home brewed varieties.  Alistair is
commenting on the lack of evidence that HOT SIDE AERATION is a
significant factor in the production of off flavors in his beers.

I am somewhat bewildered by the implication that there is a
relationship between HSA and spoilage due to oxidation.  Perhaps I have
missed it, but I have seen no evidence (even anecdotal) from any source
to imply such a relationship.  I would be happy to see any evidence to
which you can point.

Your experiment has nothing to do with HSA.  It would prove only that
accelerated oxidation occurs at 40C and that Alistair's friends could
detect that.  I am willing to concede both points, although I have
never met Alistair or any of his friends.  An experiment to detect HSA
would have to eliminate all other variables.  Frankly, I have never
seen an experiment proposed that would satisfy me that HSA was the only
variable.

I consider HSA and oxidation to be separate and unrelated topics. 
Alistair seems pretty confident that there is no such relationship in
his beers, and I will second that notion.  I do not take actions to
flagrantly increase (or decrease) aeration of the mash or of hot wort. 
I suspect that Alistair's tongue was pressed firmly against his cheek
when he made his comments in this regard.

While I know that cold-side oxidation is a real-life problem, I do not
know whether HSA is an urban legend or not.  But I can confidently tell
you that in the many years I have been brewing (and drinking!), I have
never detected an off-flavor in any beer that could not readily be
attributed to some tangible cause rather than HSA.  HSA is simply not
something that I lie awake at night worrying about.




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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:31:08 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: water retained by grains

I recently mashed a CAP-like pilsner and had close to 0.20 gallons/lb of 
water retained by the grains where I usually have 0.12.  The highest I've 
seen before was 0.17 with my system.

Does flaked maize or 6-row retain more water than 2-row? 



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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:18:04 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Crystal Malt Powder


I can't seem to find anyone who carries crystal malt powder anymore.

It's ice cream season and I am pining for the stuff.  Anyone have any ideas?

js


PHOTO OF THE WEEK http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Sausage, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf




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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:21:36 -0600
From: "Kate porter" <kate at aob.org>
Subject: Re: AHA-price gouging, afraid to post opposing viewpoints

 John,
As moderator for TechTalk, I only look for slamming or defaming another
brewer, blatant advertising, or false information. I think that your message
contains none of these and have no problem posting your opinions to
TechTalk. In fact, I had not seen your post@ all until today when I read
it here, on the HBD. I think you might have experienced problems posting if
you sent your note from an address other than that on our list serve
(segedy at gsinet.net), or the slim chance that you sent your message during a
short power outage on Wednesday of last week. Receiving a message claiming
"denial" is most often the result of posting from an unknown address.

If you would still like your opinions about the membership restructuring
posted to TechTalk, please write me back personally (kate at aob.org or
moderator at aob.org) and I'd be happy to post them in tomorrow's edition.

Kate


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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 14:47:22 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: AHA

Paul Gatza writes:

> Brian asks if the increased cost on AHA memberships in Canada 
> is subsidizing a lower international membership rate for 
> other members. The answer is no, and perhaps the fees for 
> international members have been slightly reducing everyone 
> else's cost over the years.

Well, to use some hockey vernacular, you neatly stick-handled around that
one. OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not use my considerable
influence amongst the howling savages to encourage a boycott of the AHA.
>From the sounds emanating from other posters, I suspect Canada will be the
least of your concerns, anyway.
> 
> "Canandians" fits neither of these choices and 
> I'll submit a web request to change it on the site. I 
> certainly mean no slight.

No slight taken. I knew it was a simple typo, I was just giving you the
gears.  

> On a side note, keep up the brewing in Canada. I know it is 
> not always easy to get quality ingredients, as the supply 
> side of the industry there tends to cater less to beermakers 
> than to winemakers--not that I have anything against 
> winemaking, it would just be nice to have better access to 
> fresher supplies with more selection for brewers.

Uh-oh, should have stopped while you were ahead. I think the two Steves at
Paddock Wood might take exception to this comment. In my opinion, they have
definitely filled a need here in Canada for a good selection of quality
ingredients.  Although you certainly can't compare them to St Pat's. ;-)

And don't think that quality winemaking supplies (read: grapes) are any
better for the majority of Canadians who are not fortunate enough to live
near the Niagara or Okanagan regions. Here on the Prairies, it costs me
hundreds of dollars in shipping to bring in quality fruit or frozen musts
for my winemaking endeavours. But yeh, we have crappy wine kits up the
wazoo, if that's what you are referring to.

Cheers
Brian


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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:31:46 -0700
From: "James R Bain B Elizabeth" <nutfarm at snowcrest.net>
Subject: holiday ale/spices

Next up for me will be a holiday ale for year's end, need to get it done for
aging.  Have had satisfactory results in the past using a strong ale or scotch
ale recipe and upping the hops and adding spices.  I've done well with the
combination of added clover honey, ginger, cinnamon, and orange zest but am
looking for new ideas.  For instance, perhaps fruit flavors/concentrates,
vanilla bean, other spices (with the exception of "hot" spice).

Would appreciate the benefit of others' experience and advice.
TIA,

Jim in Chico



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