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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Basic questions from a newbie ("B Morey")
  Kegging system 101? (Rob Cherie Busenbark)
  Re: FWH in Partial Mash (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Best priming for Yorkshire bitter (Jeff Renner)
  RO  Water filters (John Scime)
  Cheap but good pH meter? ("Mike")
  Re: Home RO water filter systems (DHinrichs)
  RE: larger batches.. (Kelly Grigg)
  RE: English pub glasses ("Dennis Lewis")
  Re: What do you drink from? ("John O'Connell at Work")
  Re: Home RO filter ("Michael O'Donnell")
  widgets (Jake Isaacs)
  Molson Porter (Marc Sedam)
  pH meters (Marc Sedam)
  Re: FWH - Needs Clarification (Jeff Renner)
  Gypsum in sparging, RO for brewing ("Dave Burley")
  American Brewers Guild ("dave holt")
  Molson Porter (Jeff Renner)
  Mini Kegs (Bill Wible)
  Ph change from Camden tablets (Randy Barnes)
  Scorched pot ("John Adsit")
  Heat and Yeast ("Tom Byrnes")
  Pump motor speed control (Aaron Gallaway)


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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:33:15 +1000
From: "B Morey" <bernardmorey at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: Basic questions from a newbie

From: "B Noll" <bnoll123 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Basic questions from a newbie

>Anyway, with advance apologies to John Asdit and his google
suggestions, my
question is this:  I have purchased a 22-quart aluminum stock pot that
I
wanted to use as a brew kettle for bigger batches. I decided to boil 2
gallons of water on our electric range as an experiment. It took about
25
minutes to get a weak boil that read 210 deg Fahrenheit on a candy
thermometer. I also put the thermometer on the range and got a 275 deg
reading. <

With our former gas stove I would never get the 'large' burner to boil
anything properly -- christmas pud, beer, whatever.  The pot had to be
positioned over two burners.

We now have a new stove where one of the burners is a large wok burner
with a double flame -- no trouble getting a 20 litre stockpot to a
rolling boil in 15 minutes.

I notice Chinese supermarkets sell a variety of LPG burners for
barbeque gas -- they're quite cheap and some are quite hefty (double
or triple circle of flame). They're intended for larger scale rice
cooking or woks.  Why not consider one of those?



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 05:47:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rob Cherie Busenbark <robandcher at yahoo.com>
Subject: Kegging system 101?

I am in the process of getting the equipment to start
kegging and creating a draft system.  Is there any
good sites or does anyone have any info on the matter.
 I plan on filling my CO2 tank with 75% Nitrogen and
25% CO2, for stouts and such.

Any Info would be appreciated,

Rob Busenbark



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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:40:44 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: FWH in Partial Mash

Steve Tighe <steve_tighe at yahoo.com> asks

>1. In following the recent First Wort Hopping thread,
>I was wondering how well that would work in a partial
>mash. The main reason I was questioning it was that it
>seems that the sparge is a bit shorter with the lower
>volume; will the hops be in the pre-boiled wort long
>enough for it to work its magic?

A short steep will be less effective than a longer one, so I think 
what you might do is to steep your first wort hops in the runoff, 
then add your extract and water and simply hold that at ~75C/170F 
until the hops have steeped for a total of an hour, then proceed with 
your boil.  That would add some time to the overall brewday, but you 
wouldn't have to do anything active.  Maybe add some heat once or 
twice as it got cool.

>Similarly, I've been considering adapting John
>Palmer's no-sparge suggestions from the recent Brew
>Your Own (if I can ever find the  at #^%# magazine again)
>to my partial mash. Any reason FWH wouldn't work in
>that method?

Again, I think you could make it work in a similar fashion.

Be sure to report back on your experience, and good luck with the 
idea of brewing school.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:52:57 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Best priming for Yorkshire bitter

"B Morey" <bernardmorey at optushome.com.au> asks from down under:

>What's everyone's view on the best priming (or, rather, the most
>appropriate for the style) for a 1.045 OG North Yorkshire bitter?
>
>Hitherto I've primed in the bottle but as I've now got two fermenters
>bulk priming might be better as there'll be different bottle sizes.
>The traditional Aussie lager rate -- about 180g per 23l -- would be
>too fizzy. A local fellow brewing expert  suggests 130g.  The brewkit
>manufacturer (Muntons) says 85g.  I liked the less gassy UK style when
>I drank it draught in UK pubs, and the imported cans aren't all that
>gassy either and are very pleasant (John Smith's has 'Bob' - a
>widget).

There are two things that result from priming rate - how big a head 
you get and the subsequent carbonation in the glass.  Strangely, high 
priming rates can result in lower carbonation in the glass because 
you get such foaming and fobbing the it gets knocked out by all the 
bubbles.  But I wouldn't recommend it.  I like the lower rate.  But 
then you won't get much of a head.  That's OK for a southern bitter, 
but up north they like a big, creamy head.

So I suggest your own widget, as mentioned the other day in the 
discussion of widgets, the Pocket Beer Engine, which could also be 
called a pocket beer sparkler.  This is simply a 5 or 10 cc plastic 
disposable syringe, preferably one with a narrow orifice.  You fill 
your glass as usual, taking care not to splash and raise a head, then 
you suck up a syringe full of beer and shoot it back into the glass 
forcefully.  This will knock out some carbonation and raise a thick, 
creamy head, leaving a low carbonation, creamy textured ale in the 
glass.

Now, a few caveats on this technique.  First, make sure your beer 
isn't too highly carbonated or you will end up with a table full of 
foamy beer and little in your glass.  This brings up the second - 
make sure you have enough headroom for the resulting foam.  And 
thirdly, don't break a tooth.

"Huh?", I hear you say.  Well, years back when I suggested this 
method, a brewer reported back that he poured his beer into a heavy 
glass mug, set it on the kitchen counter, and did the syringe thing. 
His beer was so carbonated that it surged forth over the top of the 
mug, so he lunged forward to sup it off the top and hit his front 
tooth on the mug and broke it off.

The trick to all this is to adjust the forcefulness of the squirt to 
the carbonation of the beer.  you don't want to knock it completely 
flat, and you don't want all foam.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 06:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Scime <jascime at yahoo.com>
Subject: RO  Water filters

Art Beall asks about RO (reverse osmosis) water
filtration systems.  As it happens, I recently
purchased and installed one of these systems to filter
our domestic water (we live in a rural, mixed
agricultural and residential area).  Overall, I'm
happy with the system, but I think its performance
abilities should be highlighted for brewers interested
in purchasing an RO for brewing purposes.

First, it should be noted that the gallon per day
(GPD) ratings listed by the manufacturer are from
tests done under perfect conditions (low ppm of
hardness, 50 psi pressure and 75 F temp, on my
system).  Based on what I've witnessed in the 2 months
since installation, I would suggest that you'll never
be able to match (or even approach) this flow rate in
a domestic application.  

I purchased a US Watergroup D75 model, rated at 75 gpd
 - their top-of-the-line domestic model.  The system is
rated for optimal performance at 50 psi - other
systems can be rated as low as 40 psi.  I have found
that the efficiency of my system is directly
coorrelated to the pressure of the domestic water
system.  For you 'townies' or city-folk, a well system
uses a pump to draw water; the pump and pressure tank
have a pressure switch that turns them on and off.  In
my case, my pumps triggers when the pressure drops to
35psi, and switches off when the system has obtained
60psi.  My RO system, however, shuts down when the
pressure drops below 45psi, and I suspect it works
inefficiently under the preferred 50psi.  

I suppose the lesson here is that if you cannot
maintain the preferred psi rating, you must buy the
booster pump.  I maintain the preffered pressure about
50% of the time.  Otherwise, my water temperature is
much lower than the optimal.  I have a water softener,
so I'm likely within the range of hardness ppm.  

My point, I suppose, is that regardless of the
pressure and other criteria set out by the
manufacturers, IMO and in my experience, you will
never get 50 or 75 GPD with a system designed for
domestic use - in fact, even with my system rated for
75 GPD, I would be hard pressed to filter 5 GPD.  even
the the manufacturer's manual lists 2 gallons as an
average production per day.  Keep this in mind when
you start preparing for your 45 gallons batches!!  But
for my family, 2-5 GPD is just fine.  If I want to use
it for brewing, I would prepare ahead of time and
collect the water over the course of a couple of
weeks.

If you have more specific questions please feel free
to e-mail me off-list.  Good luck!!

John Scime
Almonte, Ontario
Hull/Ottawa & Periphery StrangeBrewers
 




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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:47:09 -0700
From: "Mike" <brewski at inet99.net>
Subject: Cheap but good pH meter? 

In our homebrew club we have several folks that are professors at medical
school. Several work in the research lab of a petrochemical company, some
for in the lab of the state medical examiner's office. Some just have a
B.S., some a M.S. and a few PhDs.

They said the cheap ones, to take the readings properly, have to be
recalibrated each time they use them. The ones that you don't have to
recalibrate each time you are doing a mash, that is what I, and I suppose
you, were wanting to do with it, cost around $1500. About 10 to 20 times
more serious than I am about this.

They said that they just use the test strips. And yes, to be consistant in
your mash, most water supplies ph need to be checked. The ph can change from
season to season.

Currently I don't do this and my efficiency/results reflect this. Oh, I make
good beer but I do need to tighten up in this area.

Mike




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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:13:21 -0500 
From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com
Subject: Re: Home RO water filter systems


I have never actually used a RO system but I did design them at one time.

First a little background on how a RO system works. Water under pressure is
passed over a membrane material. The membrane is somewhat porous and will
allow very small items to pass, the porosity of the material is sized to
allow water through but prevent contaminates from getting through. The
results is very clean water, almost as good as distilling. Since the
membrane could easily be clogged the filtered material it is washed with
water while filtered, typically only one gallon of clean water is produced
for every 4-5 gallons of water used. The waste water is run down the drain.
Thus in areas where water supply is tight it may not be the best method.
Some system will add a pump to increase the water pressure to force more
good water through the membrane to increase efficiency (depending on your
water supply pressure this may be a good idea).

Most home systems will then store the clean water in a pressurized tank so
it can be delivered to a faucet (typically a small auxiliary one in the
kitchen). In Art's case a pressure tank would not be needed as he would be
going right to bulk storage.

As for sizing they can be purchased for home use, 4-5 gallons per day, up to
municipal system size. The small home systems are intended for drinking,
cooking and coffee where the water is really bad. RO can be used to create
fresh water from seawater, it is costly to so.

All units require extensive pre-filtering to reduce the amount and size of
contaminants that actually get to the membrane. Little, if any, treatment
should be required after the membrane.

RO should not be used to reduce biological contamination as many biological
agents can grow through the membrane, even if they are normally filtered
out. A post filtering UV or chemical treatment would be required in this
case.

In Art's situation it is a good idea to work with a local supplier to make
sure proper pre-treatment of the water is done or the expensive membrane
will be clogged in short order.

As with all water filtering methods proper maintenance and replacement of
the filter media is a must. Remember to use extreme sanitation when
maintaining all filter devices to reduce the chance of contaminating your
water supply.

Dave in Minnetonka, mn

I am finally going to brew at my new home this weekend (after a 9 month
hiatus), should be an adventure.


>Hello,

>I'm considering purchasing a home RO filter system for brewing. I would be
>interested in anybodys experience with these systems.

>I've been buying RO water from a local shop for several years now. About
> .25/gal. My own water is well water, which has too much iron in it for
brewing.
>The softened water doesnt work well for me either. The local shop is going
out
>of business, so I've been considering the home system.

>Some of the systems I've been looking at have a DI filter that removes some
of
>the trace chemicals that slip by the RO membrane. UV light is another
option
>for killing bacteria. Also, permeate pumps are available for reducing the
back
>pressure on the membrane and boasting performance(from what the
advertisiing
>says).

>My idea was to use a few suitable plastic barrels to hold the RO water for
>brewing. Turn it on the day or two before brewing, and let it fill up. I
>occasionally brew large 45 gal batches, so I need about 70 gallons or so
for
>that. I was thinking the 50 GPD membrane would work fine. 

>Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

>=====
>Art Beall
>arthurbeall at yahoo.com

DAve in minnetonka, mn


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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:35:06 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE: larger batches..

I've only finished my 3rd batch of all-grain, and I have only done
10 gallon batches. My sparge takes about 90 minutes. I do try to keep
about an inch of liquor on top of the grain bed...and I keep an eye on
the sparge water...but, am no anal about precise temps. I've found that I've
had good results by just being in the ball park.

Our water here in NOLA is a bit basic, so, I add about 1 tsp lactic acid
per 5 gallons of water...and that seems to work pretty well. (These levels
were recommended by my local brew shop).

Also, I don't have any special mechanism for sparging...I use two regular
(sankey?) kegs we cut the tops off with a grinder...and my mash/lauter
one has an EZ-masher installed in it.  When sparging, I just put an old
plastic outdoor eating plate inverted on top of the grain bed, and
I pour pot fulls of spare water from the other keg on top of the plate,
this disperses the water and keeps from creating channels and disturbing
the grain bed...

HTH,

Kelly

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 06:58:51 -0400
> From: Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY%SUNY at esc.edu
> Subject: larger batches..
> 
> Jeff;
> 
>  this may be obvious,..if so, forgive me, but how long does it take for
> your sparge (5 gallon versus 10 gallon) and
> do you make sure that you maintain temps (168-170F?)  and do you keep an
> inch or so of liquor on top of the
> grainbed?  Also do you watch pH?  These could all be factors,  I believe...
> 
>  ..Darrell
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------

- ------------------

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright
until you hear them speak.

- ------------------


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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:47:32 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <DBLewis at LewisDevelopment.com>
Subject: RE: English pub glasses

I have found English-style no-nick glasses at IKEA in Pittsburgh. 
Fittingly enough, they are called MALT in the IKEA naming style and 
are $1.50 for a 3-pack. Since IKEA is a fairly large international 
company, you may have luck finding them there. A check of the IKEA-USA
online catalog does not list them, but I've found that it doesn't list 
much of the kitchen stuff. BTW, two pulls from my Angram handpump fills 
it right to the brim with a 1/4" collar of foam.

The glass is pretty thin and is easily broken--but at $.50 each the 
breakage tolerance is pretty high. I bought a bunch of them (like 18) 
and have several at the office too. At least the look of an iced tea 
in a no-nick glass is comforting.

Dennis Lewis

[175.3mi, 113.3] Apparent Rennerian (aka Warren, Ohio)
"When I read about the evils of drinking,
I gave up reading." --Henny Youngman 


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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:00:19 -0400
From: "John O'Connell at Work" <oconn at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: What do you drink from? 

Hey y'all,

Crate and Barrel sells branded pint glasses.  They used to sell half-pints, 
but now sell these very cute but quite unofficial quarter-pints:

http://www.crateandbarrel.com/store/details.asp?category=401&index=54

This is the link for the full pints:

http://www.crateandbarrel.com/store/details.asp?category=401&index=53

This choice for glassware was obvious enough that we even registered for 
them when we got married.  They appear to ship worldwide, but you have to 
call or e-mail to make sure.

We use the pints for all sorts of things, as well as the half pints.  Beer, 
juice, sodas, water, etc.  They are durable and well-made (in 
Belgium!?)  They have become our everyday drinking glasses.  We actually 
found that the half-pint was the preferred glass for tapping the kegs, 
since full pints could get pretty warm and flat by the time a 
semi-distracted person got through with them, such as during dinner or 
while feeding the baby or working e-mail.

The price is a littler higher than what has been quoted elsewhere, but the 
ability to buy a less-than-case quantity is nice.

As an aside, we also have a smattering of very nice Belgian glasses and 
some cool Ritzenhoff glassware (pilsners and weiss glasses) we pull out for 
special occasions.  But the Crate and Barrel pints are the real workhorses.

John O'Connell
Atlanta, GA.



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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:16:40 -0700
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Home RO filter

I have a reverse osmosis filter from Costco... cost about 
$150.  Unfortunately, they don't give much in the way of specifications in 
terms of GPD or such.  Still, the price is right.  Has 1 particulate 
filter, 2 activated carbon and then the membrane.  I only use it for 
dealing with nasty-tasting city water, and it does a great job.

At 12:45 AM 6/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I'm considering purchasing a home RO filter system for brewing. I would be
>interested in anybodys experience with these systems



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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:30:30 -0400
From: Jake Isaacs <rjisaa0 at uky.edu>
Subject: widgets


>From a friend of mine at Guinness:

The widget itself is a rocket shaped plastic material
with a semi-permeable surface. It has a tiny hole on its base. When the
bottle is filled with beer, the widget is already in the bottle.  The beer
is filled in a super-cooled state and is flushed with nitrogen.  Once in the
bottle, as the bottle warms up, the nitrogen diffuses through the
semi-permeable membrane into the widget.  This system comes to an
equilibruim, until the cap is popped.  Now, the nitrogen, which is at high
pressure, comes gushing out since it is exposed to atmospheric pressure.
This results in a cascade effect in the bottle.  Everytime the bottle is
lifted to the consumer's mouth (i.e. inverted), residual N2 in the widget is
released through the tiny hole in the bottom, resulting in the fresh draught
mouthfeel.

  .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .------------------------.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.
 /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ / Richard J. (Jake) Isaacs \ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\
X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X   Department of Molecular  X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X
 `-'   `-' `-'   `-' \  & Cellular Biochemistry / `-'   `-' `-'   `-'
 .-.   .-. .-.   .-. /  University of Kentucky  \ .-.   .-. .-.   .-.
X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X        800 Rose St.        X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X
 \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \ Lexington, KY 40536-0084 / \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/
  `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `------------------------'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'



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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:34:43 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at UNC.EDU>
Subject: Molson Porter

Daniel,

I can't really help you try and target Molson Porter, but
have a sneaking suspicion that Yuengling Porter would be a
very close approximation.  You should be able to buy
Yuengling in NYC.  Try a bottle and see if you can clone
that.  Or maybe someone on this list has tried to clone this
tasty session beer.

I finally got my Yuengling Lager clone down solid when the
stinking brewery started shipping to NC.  Curses!

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:47:42 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: pH meters

Gary asks about pH meters...

I've used both the pHep and Piccolo pH meters that are for
sale at most of the big HB supply shops.  William's Brewing
and More Beer both carry them (NAYYY).  If you're just
looking for a good estimate at your pH, then the pHep meter
is a sweet deal at $49.  If you want to make a bigger
investment and get a more accurate meter with a REPLACEABLE
probe so you don't have to buy a new meter again, the
Piccolo is the best deal going.

Beer is a pretty hostile environment for a pH meter due to
the heat and protein concentration of the things we
generally care about measuring.  You pretty much need to dip
the probe in 3% NaOH after every measurement to ensure that
proteins are dissolved of the probe and have some deionized
water around to rinse.  Just a few extra precautions so you
have it around longer.

I try to cool wort down to 120F or so to reduce beating up
the probe so badly.  Both of these meters usually have
temperature correction up to 160F, but using it at that
temperature regularly will ensure that you'll need a new
meter after ~10 uses.  Trust me on this one.  I have the
carcasses of many broken pH meters to prove it.  :-)

Cheers!
- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:10:15 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: FWH - Needs Clarification

Mark Ohrstrom pointed out that I wasn't clear when I wrote:

>For FWH, I use this second "aroma" addition in the first wort.  I
>then still use more or less the normal amount of bittering hops
>(although I do take into consideration that the FWH will contribute
>some bitterness) and I also still add the normal aroma hops

What I meant to say,  "second *flavor* addition" ...
//

And what is with the line eating gremlin that occasionally strikes at 
the HBD server?  What was published (note discontinuity of thought 
between the last two lines):

>Normally (non-FWH), I add bittering hops at the beginning of the boil
>(typically 60-75 minutes), then what I call flavor hops (since the
>aroma gets boiled out but flavor remains) for the last 15 minutes,
>then aroma hops (since, hopefully, most of the aroma remains) at the
>I begin chilling with an immersion chiller.

What I wrote makes more sense:

>Normally (non-FWH), I add bittering hops at the beginning of the 
>boil (typically 60-75 minutes), then what I call flavor hops (since 
>the aroma gets boiled out but flavor remains) for the last 15 
>minutes, then aroma hops (since, hopefully, most of the aroma 
>remains) at the end of the boil.  These steep during 5-10 minute 
>settling time before I begin chilling with an immersion chiller.

Fortunately I cc'd Dan the original note and he understood.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:23:52 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Gypsum in sparging, RO for brewing

Brewsters:

Adding gypsum to the sparge water, as Dominick suggests, in hopes of keeping
the sparge acidic won't do much good as gypsum is not very soluble and is a
salt of a strong acid and a strong base ( in the first ionization cases)
and, therefore, pretty neutral. The pH effect of gypsum depends on the
calcium ion reacting with proton containing components of the mash, like
phosphates and such. In the sparge towards the end there are no such
components left, so the small amount of dissolved gypsum will have little to
no effect.

Use lactic acid in your sparge water to lower the pH.

- ----------------------
Art Beall asks for experience with RO water from a well and brewing.

I had a well when I lived in NJ and used softened water through an RO with
great success. I can recommend it heartily. I had a smaller system than 50
gpd you propose, so I just collected my needs into clean gallon plastic
milk jugs on a daily basis until I had enough. Easy to do.

I also had a UV sterilizer which worked fine in that crowded NJ area of
septic tanks, but it is not necessary for beer as you will boil all the
water/wort.

If you drink the water from the tap be sure to add a mineral regimen to your
diet as softening removes all trace minerals as well as needed calcium and
magnesium.  Softened water is, of course, high in sodium, depending on the
total mineral content - not always a good idea, but likely better for guys
than drinking water with too much iron.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley
Anderson, SC
On beautiful Lake Hartwell
a Bassmaster Tournament Lake




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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 14:10:56 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: American Brewers Guild

Thanks to David Houseman for the MCAB clarification.

Steve Tighe writes:

<Do any of
y'all know  about the ABG and Davis programs? Would
the ABG provide a thorough enough education to a) get
a job in a good brewerey, and b) learn the
art/science/engineering enough to be sufficiently
skilled to make quality beer on a small commercial
scale? And what, exactly, would all the additional
time at Davis provide?>


Several years ago I went to the Advanced Homebrewing workshop, 2 day weekend 
course at ABG.  The class was taught by a homebrewer, UC-Davis graduate, and 
brewer at Sudwerk Hubsch.  For the price of $150, I had fun and learned 
quite a bit.  The organized tasting, after talking about defects in beer, 
was probably the most educational for me.

I'm not sure about the current classes available or the prices, but they 
also used to have a 5-7 day Boots-on Training course where you learned all 
aspects of brewing on their 7.5 barrel system.  Lab work, yeast handling, 
recipe formulation, brewing, packaging, etc all aspects of running a small 
brewery.  At the time, the cost was around $1500.

I met a fellow Arizonan while there.  He eventually did the Apprenticeship 
program.  He was a novice brewer, kit brewer, when I met him. He went on to 
open a successful homebrew shop, and from what I hear, is soon to open a 
brewpub.

On a bad day at work as an engineer, I would look at UC-Davis' Master Brewer 
program and dream.  Ah yes, a B.S or Masters in Brewing.  More work and 1/3 
the pay.  Guy can dream ...... shattered by a recent marriage.

To me, the UC-Davis program is more geared to the Mega-Brewery.  The ABG 
instructor was a UC-Davis graduate and I can attest he was very well 
educated by the program. And he was a brewpub brewer.  From what I 
understand, ABG has an excellent placement program.

Oh yeah, I not affiliated with ABG.

Another option is to volunteer at a local brewpub and learn that way.  A 
young brewer I taught is doing just that.  A local brewpub owner and the 
brewer saw the enthusiasm and passion my friend had for brewing and ask him 
if he would like to volunteer.  Recently, he called and said that he helped 
brew one of his recipes on their equipment.  Brewing is hard work and extra 
hands are welcomed by the right brewery.


Dave Holt
Chandler, AZ
Forest Lakes, AZ








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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:37:36 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Molson Porter

Daniel J. Gestwick <djg at ccy.com> wrote from Williamsville, NY:

>  A friend of mine wants me to try to recreate a beer that no longer exists
>   and that I have never had before. It was a Porter that Molsen Brewery
>  used
>   to offer. He is describing it as a light bodied porter that was not very
>   sweet but had some body and roastiness. Something like a session porter.
>  I'm
>   thinking a combination between a brown ale and a brown porter with some
>  corn
>   sugar to lighten the body. My plan would be to use a Scottish Ale yeast
>  to
>   promote the malty flavors and get the FG down as low as possible. Has
>  anyone
>   out there had this beer and/or tried to make it in the past?

I can trace my beer awakening to precisely a long 4th of July weekend 
in 1970, when we went with a Canadian couple to his parents log 
cottage/lodge on a 2-3 acre island they owned in the Thirty Thousand 
Islands of Georgian Bay in northern Lake Huron, Ontario.  On the way 
up we bought a case of Molson Stock Ale and maybe a sixer of Molson 
porter.

More about the porter in a moment, but it was the stock ale that was 
the eye-opener (so to speak) for me.  The scales fell from my eyes - 
this was beer!  Copper colored, malty, hoppy, rich.  Wow.  I could 
never go home again - at least not to Schlitz, which was my beer of 
choice at the time.  Unfortunately, it wasn't exported, so I had to 
do with Molson Export Ale, which still wasn't bad, but it wasn't the 
same.  We made the trip across the Detroit River often until I 
started brewing a few years later.

Now the Molson porter - also very good.  LaBatt's also made (and may 
still make?) "Velvet Cream Porter," which was a thin bodied, rather 
forgettable beer.  The Molson was not like any porters we may make as 
homebrewers - no real roasted grain flavor.  More like a Munich 
Dunkel.  I wonder if they used Porterine or some similar caramelized 
concentrate to darken it, or Munich malt.  As I recall, it was dark 
but not black, rich, caramelly, fairly sweet, but with some lightness 
of body that in retrospect I think came from corn.  No particular 
bitterness.  Maybe a little licorice.  It was used in old North 
American porters.  All in all, a good, interesting beer, if not my 
favorite style.

In his 1st edition of his Pocket Guide to Beer (1982, Perigee Books, 
later he went to Simon & Schuster), Michael Jackson gave it three 
stars.  He mentioned that it was brewed only Molson's Barrie, Ontario 
brewery.  The porter had disappeared by the 1991 edition.

Jackson also gave 1-1/2 stars to LaBatt's porter, which is still 
brewed, and which he still scores the same.  The Molson Stock Ale he 
gave the maximum 4 stars in 1982, but it fell to 2 stars by 1988.  I 
don't know if it fell in quality or he reconsidered.  It retained 2 
stars through the 6th edition, but isn't mentioned the latest (7th). 
He gave the Export Ale 3 stars in '82, but 2 stars in '88.  It's only 
1-1/2 stars in the 7th.  How the mighty have fallen!

The porter was 5% abv, which would correspond to 1.050 OG or so.  I 
think if you used a base of Munich (N. American 6-row Munich, such as 
from Breiss, would be most authentic), some crystal and some corn 
(20-25%?), maybe a very little (1 oz)Carafa III or debittered black 
malt and some brewers licorice, you would get somewhere in the 
ballpark.  Around 20 IBU bitterness, and no hop aroma.

A search for recipes for another old-style North American porter, 
Yuengling, might give you some clues.

Here is a 1947 recipe from Nugey's Brewers Manual for 100 barrels of 
1.052 porter (divide by 620 for a five gallon batch, or maybe by 600 
to allow for a homebrewer's lower efficiency).  I think it might be a 
little more robust than I remember Molson.

3300 lbs. 5-7L malt [this would be like Munich]
100 lbs. color malt
1075 lbs. caramel malt
1175 lbs. flaked maize
6 lbs. licorice
60 lbs domestic hops


Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:06:42 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Mini Kegs


I recently purchased for myself a set of (4) 5-liter
mini kegs and a Phil's CO2 tap for these.  Uses
12 gram CO2 cartridges.

I've read various posts on here from time to time
regarding these.  It seems some people like them
and some people hate them.  Guess I have to find
out for myself.

I like to do english pale ales, IPA's and Mild
Ales.  These seem ideal for these styles if
done correctly.  And they fit in a regular
fridge.

I'm seeking advice from those who have used these.

What is the correct amount of priming for these?
How easily do they bulge or get damaged by
over-carbonation?  That seems to be the number one
complaint I've seen.

Do these take in air once tapped, or is the air
totally replaced by the CO2 cartridge?  How long
can an untapped 5 liter minikeg be stored,
refrigerated or otherwise?  How long is a 5 liter
mini keg good once tapped?

I also picked up 4 of the Phil's Relief Bungs for
these. Anybody used these, had any luck?

Thanks in Advance

Bill



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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:35:26 -0700 
From: Randy Barnes <rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Subject: Ph change from Camden tablets

My last batch included three Camden tablets in the brewing liquor tank (used
both for mash and sparge) 
for a 5 gallon batch. This was done to eliminate chloramines in my water
supply as well as minimize
oxidation of the mash (based on past HBD discussions). 

My questions: will Camden tablets affect the Ph of my mash? If I combine
Camden tablets 
in the water tank with lactic acid additions does this present a problem?

Thanks,
Randy Barnes
San Diego


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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:31:18 -0600
From: "John Adsit" <jadsit at attbi.com>
Subject: Scorched pot

> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:57:22 -0500
> From: "B Noll" <bnoll123 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Basic questions from a newbie
>
> > Anyway, with advance apologies to John Asdit and his google suggestions,

Hey!  I never said don't write in!  I was just offering a suggestion as to
how you could get some kinds of information quickly when you need it.  Your
question would certainly not be one of those that I would submit to a search
engine at all.

And as for the Camden tablet stuff, well, that site was from the UK.  Maybe
the Brits have bigger... oh, never mind.

The real irony there was that the very day I sent that post, I wrote a
lesson for an online education class, a lesson which focused on the
unreliability of some Internet sources.

>my
> question is this:  I have purchased a 22-quart aluminum stock pot that I
> wanted to use as a brew kettle for bigger batches...

Let me try to help.  It was not clear to me exactly what you were boiling.
If you were just boiling water, then you really do have something unusual.
If you had put in some liquid malt extract (LME) already, then you have a
very common scorching effect.  (Even if that is not the case, let me offer
you this tip.  If you are using LME, boil the water first and then take it
off the heat completely until the LME is totally stirred in.)

Finally, one of the smartest brewing purchases I ever made was a propane
burner.  I get to make my messes out on the back deck instead of ruining the
stove, and it gets the boil going in a real hurry.

John Adsit
Boulder, CO
jadsit at attbi.com





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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 22:37:51 -0400
From: "Tom Byrnes" <kmstfb2 at exis.net>
Subject: Heat and Yeast

 I have a hefeweizen in my secondary fermentor. Unfortunately
the temperature got out of control and rose to 85F and possibly higher. When
I bottle it  the beer would be in the secondary for
three weeks. Are there still viable yeast for bottle carbonation
with dextrose or should I add fresh yeast three days prior to 
bottling. I used White Labs Hefeweizen IV in a 1000ml starter
for 5 gallons. I did have some yeast escape the primary
in the first two days.  Thanks Tom


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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:24:59 -0700
From: Aaron Gallaway <baseball_junkie at hotmail.com>
Subject: Pump motor speed control

 

To the collective,

I own a mag drive pump and am
interested in a speed control for my pump in order to increase
my ramp times a bit in heat exchanger. I want to maybe ick one
up for cheap at ebay&nbsp; but there are SOOOO many there and I
am an electronics idot(remember I teach English in Japan) can
anyone give me some ideas on what I am looking for?? It is an
Iwaki pump rated for 115V at 1.0 amps...That is all I could read
off of it...Any help would be great

Aaron in Japan



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