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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Adding Water After Fermentation ("Steve Alexander")
  NHC 2002 (blutick)
  beer descriptions ("Dave Sapsis")
  * * * HBD SLAMDOWN! is ON For NHC Dallas! * * * (mohrstrom)
  Change in hotels again ("Jim")
  Conical Height Woes (Richard Foote)
  RE:  Adding water after fermentation (KC Sare)
  Re: beer descriptions (Pat Babcock)
  AHA National Homebrewers Conference ("AOB Moderator")
  C?CA ("Drew Avis")
  Hop growing question (Bill Wible)
  RE: NHC Hotel Change ("Sweeney, David")
  Re: AHA in Dallas-moving again but still no need to worry!!! ("Dan Dewberry")
  Good brew in the Big Easy ("Ed Dorn")
  blue rhino propane exchange ("Laura Barrowman")
  Weihenstephan & Wissenschaftliche (Jeff Renner)
  Orlando Beer Scene - the Real Story (Don Lake)
  Blow off (John Maylone)


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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 04:16:42 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Adding Water After Fermentation

I'm with JeffR re the dilution of beer post fermentation, but KC Sare
(Jones?) from Heriot-Watt posted all the practical information re diluting
water.   The water should be soft (distilled is great) O2 free and
carbonated.  pH should also be observed.

Producing the hi-grav wort may involve either an extract addition or mashing
more grist and sparging less.  Of course you have to calculate IBUs needed
in the final beer, multiply to figure IBUs in the concentrated beer, then
chose a formula to get those.

The hardest part of high gravity brewing is (I think) fermenting a brew with
a flavor profile that will withstand dilution.    Fermenting hi-grav beers
is likely to show up as increased fusels and esters.  You absolutely should
pitch more yeast (proportional to the gravity increase) and also add
proportionally more oxygen early in the fermentation to support the larger
pitching.

There are a long list of other things that you might try to hold the fusels
and esters in check.  Narziss has suggested reducing hi-grav wort pH to 4.9
to assist the yeast and also add around 0.15ppm of zinc.  I agree with
Jeff's suggestion to keep the fermentation cool, high temps always increase
fusels & esters.  [I understand Dean Fikar is presenting at the AHA NHC in
Texas this month on the topic of controlling these despite high temps -
should be interesting].  Yeast selection may be the most effective means of
control - selecting a yeast with a profile of lower fusels & esters.

There are also a lot more exotic techniques that are probably unnecessary
when making a 16P wort for dilution to 12P, but your tongue will tell you.

One other catch - fermenting 15+P wort takes a toll on the yeast so you
really shouldn't reuse yeast after the ordeal without regrowing these.

I think I'd find $16 for an additional carboy fermenter rather than deal
with the more difficult fermentation, the careful dilution and the loss of
the resulting yeast - but that's me.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:52:34 -0500
From: blutick at juno.com
Subject: NHC 2002

There have been several posts in the digest regarding the hotel
accommodations for the upcoming AHA National Homebrew Conference in
Irving, Texas. Unfortunately, the situation has been fluid and has
changed again. The event is now planned to take place at the Dallas
Marriot in Las Colinas. I hope that this plan sticks. You can read about
it for yourself at http://66.166.164.98/nhc2002/index.htm

Please accept our apologies for the confusion.

Jim Layton
Judge Coordinator, NHC 2002


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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:15:51 -0700
From: "Dave Sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net>
Subject: beer descriptions

Here's an excerpt from a piece I wrote on some beers I had in Barcelona last
fall:

Dark Lager - Purkmistr.  This was somewhat different than any beer I have
previously encountered.  It was very rich and toasty in the nose - some
toasted light cereal-like graininess mixed with strong, faintly burnt
caramel tones above a backdrop of sweet, dark candy.  The toastiness was not
like the typical Munich malt toastiness of Fests and Bocks, but somewhat
lighter yet richer, with a toffee-like sweet angle.  The rich malt-toast
carried into the early palate flavor, followed by a rich, sweet, light-brown
molasses flavor.  There were only  traces (and significantly less presence
than the Damm negra) of chocolate tones, and the mid-palate was round, fat,
and syrupy.   The maltiness was somewhat unlike anything I had ever had
before, in that the toastiness and sugary-molasses notes combined to make a
very rich caramel middle, not unlike Bract's dark caramel chews, but with
the two combining features still as easily distinct elements.  Overall the
beer finished well past the off-dry point on the sweetness spectrum, coating
the mouth with a medium-brown, rummy and toasty sweetness with a caramel
back.  This beer was eminently rich.  It was a bit too much sweetness for me
given the mood I was in, but was a beer of strong, intriguing complexity.
It seems to me to form just one of many vertices of beer hyperspace that one
could view as black lagerdome.

- --dave sapsis, sacramento




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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:34:14 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: * * * HBD SLAMDOWN! is ON For NHC Dallas! * * * 

Troy Hager laments:
>>>
Just yesterday I wrote a note Jeff Renner lamenting that the HBD seems to
have lost some of its spark for me. It seems that many of the old voices 
are
not around much any more, most topics have been discussed and rediscussed 
ad
nausea, and then with all the fighting, name calling, "I said this, no you
said that" that has been going on, I feel our little community needs
something to bring it all together again. 
<<<

Troy, we have a means of settling this.  The HBD SLAMDOWN! is just the 
place to settle these long-term, on-going debates.  Originally conceived 
as a fund-raiser for the HBD server fund, we have been forced to 
repeatedly cancel the event, as the rancor always seems to die off before 
the NHC.  Let's see if we can keep it stoked and hot this time, OK?

Now is the time to nominate the contenders.  Seating will be limited, and 
ring-side boxes will be sold at a premium.  After all, it's for a great 
cause! 


Mark in Kalamazoo (alright, it's Indy, but I can dream ...)



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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:39:29 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Change in hotels again

Oops! The AHA National Conference has changed hotels once again.  No longer
at the Wilson World, no longer at the Holiday Inn Select, but now at the
Dallas Marriott Las Colinas.  Getting to sound more and more like a Texas
Chili Cook-off.  Bring your motor homes, campers and tents and we will set
up in a Wall-Mart parking lot.  No mater where we will be on the 20th of
June hope to see you there.
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:49:29 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Conical Height Woes


Don writes:

>I would really like to have a conical fermentator.  Unfortunately, this
>one is too tall for my needs in a chest freezer.  I need something
>29inches or less which I have yet to find.

A member of our club got one of the cc's from Beer, Beer and More Beer. He
contacted them by phone in advance of placing an order to see if they'd be
willing to do a custon cc for him.  He went with the 12.2 gal. model and
had them make the support legs in two sections (one fitting inside the
other).  This gives him the option of removing the bottom section so that
he is able to get it to fit in his fridge.  Not sure of the height, but you
could call B3 to see what they might be able to do for you. 

http://www.morebeer.com/

Hope this helps.


Rick ("I'm Going to Disney World!") Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA 





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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: KC Sare <beerbeer95648 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:  Adding water after fermentation

Besides the ingress of O2 into your beer, you may
notice an increase of esters (namely ethyl acetate and
iso-amyl acetate). Research suggests that by altering 
the maltose:glucose ratio of the wort, the ester
levels can be somewhat controlled in high gravity
situations.  This is especially evident with the use
of syrups, where very high maltose syrup shows a 25%
reduction in esters over that of glucose syrup. 
However, this is not usually relevant to home brewers,
due to the low availabity and use of such syrups. You
may also notice a decrease in head retention.  This is
normally thought to be caused by  proteolytic enzymes
(Proteinase A) which are released by the yeast due to
the increase of various stresses imposed due to the
higher gravity fermentations.  Additionally, it is
thought that some hydrophobic polypeptides are lost
due to excessive foaming during higher gravity
fermentations(adhere to the fermenter).  Also
re-pitching can be problematic with yeast harvested
from a high gravity fermentation. 
KC Sare
Heriot-Watt 
Edinburgh 



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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:57:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: beer descriptions

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, "Dave Sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net> of 
beer descriptions:

> Here's an excerpt from a piece I wrote on some beers I had in Barcelona last
> fall:
> 
> Dark Lager - Purkmistr.  This was somewhat different than
> any beer I have previously encountered.  It was very rich
> and toasty in the nose - some...

That is an excellent description. With the exception of the Damm
brew, the reader at least has access to all of the sensory
descriptors you provide, and should be able to build a
"model" for the beer's profile in their mind. (This is FAR
better than the attempts of description our "friend" has
made...). 

More! I want more of this!


- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:45:11 -0600
From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org>
Subject: AHA National Homebrewers Conference

Association of Brewers presents the
AHA National Homebrewers Conference
June 20-22, 2002

Two weeks before the Conference commencement, Wilson World Hotel, Irving TX,
unexpectedly closed it's doors for renovations. The AHA staff and local
Texas committee have been working very hard to find another location, close
by, that is suitable for the needs of the National Homebrewers Conference
and 2nd Round Judging of the National Homebrew Competition.

The new location of the 2002 AHA National Homebrewers Conference is:

Dallas Marriott Las Colinas
223 West Las Colinas Blvd
Irving, TX 75039
972-831-0000
 http://www.marriotthotels.com/dpp/PropertyPage.asp?MarshaCode=DALCL
(copy and paste this link)

The Dallas Marriott Las Colinas will honor all hotel reservations previously
made at the Wilson World Hotel. If you have made reservations already with
Wilson World, the AHA will ensure your reservation is transferred to the new
site. The $59 room rate will only be honored until June 19, so if you have
not reserved a room - do so today! Please remember to mention the conference
when you register your room.

Should you need car rental service in Irving, please check out this link:
https://www.avis.com/AvisWeb/html/meetings/webpage.html?1446, Avis has
offered special rates; so don't forget to mention you are with the AHA
National Homebrewers Conference.  Also, if you are looking for a shuttle
from Dallas/Fort Worth Airport to Dallas Marriott Las Colinas, contact Super
Shuttle  at  1-817-329-2000.

If you have any questions regarding the event, please check www.beertown.org
for updates or call the Association of Brewers, 888-U-CAN-BREW.

Sincerely,

Kate Porter
2002 HBC Event Registrar
AHA Administrator
kate at aob.org
303-447-0816 x 123






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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:25:32 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: C?CA

Brewers, in today's HBD I again see the acronym CACA, or Classic American
Cream Ale - an unfortunate term that seems to be gaining currency in these
parts.  Now, I'm no beer historian but I am a wee bit of a nationalist, and
would like to carve out a bit of Canadian territory on the beer style map,
or at least claim that territory back from our encroaching neighbours.

Perhaps a real beer historian has better information, but I always had heard
that the style and name "cream ale" was a Canadian invention - first brewed
by the Sleeman Brewing company in Guelph, Ontario.  The brewery was founded
in 1851 (Sleeman had been brewing w/ others since 1834), and their cream ale
was their flagship brew by the turn of the century.  (This is a synopsis
lifted from sleeman.com).

>From the Genesee web site, it appears that their cream ale didn't show up
until the 1960's.  I can't seem to find an introduction date for "Little
Kings" (the only other commercial cream ale mentioned by the BJCP) - but I
don't think it predates this century.

So I make the humble request that we refer to Canada's only truly native
style as the Classic Canadian Cream Ale, or CCCA.

Cheers!
Drew Avis ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca



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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:49:18 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Hop growing question


This is my second year growing hops.  I have a
Perle, a Cascade, and a Nugget.  They are growing
Philadelphia, or a suburb of Phila called
Downingtown.  It's out near Victory Brewing
Company, for those of you fortunate enough
to know about them and to have tried their beer!

These plants must really love where they are.
At this point, the Perle are the most robust and
biggest vine.  The vine is over 14 feet high,
and actually has fully formed cones on it already.
The Nugget and Cascade are a foot or two shorter,
and the vines seem thinner and just not as hardy.

>From what I've read, Perle is an early bloomer, or
an early harvest.  When do you take down the cones?
How do you know when they're ready?

Again, this is my second year growing hops, and I
got about zero harvest from these plants last year,
being the first year they were grown from little
tiny rhizomes.

Thanks.

Bill




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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:38:28 -0500
From: "Sweeney, David" <David at studentlife.tamu.edu>
Subject: RE: NHC Hotel Change

Dan Dewberry writes:

>>>The Wilson World Hotel is being closed for renovations but all the hotel
rooms & the whole conference has been moved to the Holiday Inn Select
DFW/South Airport Hotel.  Check it out:
http://hbd.org/nhc2002/hotel.htm
<<<

I received email confirmation of my registration today.  The new hotel is 
NOT the Holiday Inn Select, but rather the Dallas Marriott Las Colinas. 
The link above lists the hotel correctly.

David Sweeney
Texas Aggie Brew Club (TABC)
Millican, Texas
david at studentlife.tamu.edu
[1067.2 mi, 219.8 deg] (Apparent) Rennerian


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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:51:00 -0500
From: "Dan Dewberry" <dandew at ev1.net>
Subject: Re: AHA in Dallas-moving again but still no need to worry!!!

Amazingly the AHA National Convention has been moved again.  I'm sure this
is driving the organizers crazy & I sympathize with them.  The Wilson World
Hotel was been closed unexpectedly & then it looked like the convention
would be at the Holiday Inn Select....however it has been changed to:

Dallas Marriott Las Colinas
223 West Las Colinas Blvd
Irving, TX 75039
972-831-0000
http://www.marriotthotels.com/dpp/PropertyPage.asp?MarshaCode=DALCL

Again, you won't need to make reservations if you already had.

See ya there,
Dan in Austin
Austin Zealots Homebrew Club



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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:35:31 -0400
From: "Ed Dorn" <edorn at dukes-stein.com>
Subject: Good brew in the Big Easy

My wife and I will be in the New Orleans area next week for a few days, and
we'll also spend some time in casino country on the Miss. coast.  Would love
to know where to find good beer in those areas, and maybe some restaurants
serving really good Cajun food and (dare I ask it?) Zydeco music in house?
That's a tall order, I know, but one never knows until one tries.  I don't
mind going off the beaten path if necessary.  Thanks in advance.



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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:42:04 -0400
From: "Laura Barrowman" <llbarrowman at hotmail.com>
Subject: blue rhino propane exchange

I am finally exchanging my old propane tanks, w/o the overflow thing the
gov. says we must have. I tried Blue Rhino but am not confident that they
won't leak. The inside of the valve is a different shape than on my old
tanks. Yeah, the threads match & I can get it tightened.  It just feels
feels funny when I get the fitting tight like the connection is only metal
to metal, not the squishy feel, I'm used to,  when the O-ring is
compressing. I can't tell if it is leaking, there is no smell or sound when
I open the valve. I tried calling Blue Rhino but I talked to a serious
maroon who told me to start up my grill (he didn't know what a cajun cooker
was) and if it lit, the connection to the tank was probably fine. I guess I
was supposed to wait for the big KaBoom! After trying to state my comcerns
for ~10 minutes I finally hung up on him.

I'm sure someone else has been in my boat. I couldn't find anything via the
HBD search engines. I tried the one that really works and the one that
doesn't. BTW, my cookers have a threadded male fitting ~3/4" dia.

TIA, Laura in NC


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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:28:32 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Weihenstephan & Wissenschaftliche

Brewers

I promised to report back on what I found out from an expert on the 
subject.  He wrote:

>Weihenstephan is the name of the University ... Wissenschaftliche 
>means the scientific part of that, including the yeast bank. ... 
>W34/70 is one of the oldest bottom fermenting (lager) yeast that I 
>know.

So that clears that up.  He has told me in the past that W34/70 is 
perhaps the most commonly used lager yeast in Germany.

Wyeast 2124 Bohemian and WhiteLabs WLP830 German Lager are reputedly 
W34/70.  SafLager sells a dried version as well 
http://www.dclyeast.co.uk/DCL_Main/main_brewing/craftbrew/craftbrew_prorange.htm

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:06:33 -0400
From: Don Lake <debil at sunnyorlando.com>
Subject: Orlando Beer Scene - the Real Story

Although I was a confidential informant to Rick Foote's original
inquiry, I feel compelled to speak out.

While the real beer scene here is nowhere near the smorgasbord of say,
Colorado, the availability of good beer has come a long way in Orlando.

The bad news is that Shipyard Brewery lost their sweetheart lease at the
Orlando International Airport. They are looking for a new building, but
for right now the brewery is in storage and their fine ales are
currently being brewed and shipped down from the original brewery in
Maine.

The good news is that we have a new distributor and beer in town. Since
he is too modest to brag, I'll do it for him. Homebrewer and
semi-regular HBD poster, Tom Moench, has recently started a beer
distributorship named "Unique Brews." Tom has acquired the distribution
rights to all of Shipyard's products(draft & bottles)plus the
lines of several other fine breweries.

And if that's not enough, Tom is having his own award-winning Coconut
Porter recipe brewed under contract and it is now on tap at several
locations in the Orlando market.

Here are some places in Orlando for fine beverages:

*Rossi's Pizza - Local hangout with great food & great beer

*Back Booth - Downtown with over 30 tap handles

*Bodhisattva - Downtown great taps and "the shine of your Japan, the
sparkle of your China ...."

*Jax 5th Ave - Downtown & College Park - lot of good taps

*Cricketeer Arms - Great Brit Tap selection in tourist area

*Orlando Ale House - Chain w/ avg food & above-average beer

*Big River Brewpub - At Disney's Boardwalk - cool locale

So, the next time you come to blow all your savings on vacation at Wally
World, check out the beer scene and specifically ask for Unique Brew's
Coconut Porter.

Don Lake
Orlando, FL



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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:45:29 -0700
From: John Maylone <mrkoala at mac.com>
Subject: Blow off

    
This is a rookie question, but what is the accepted/best way to deal with
blow off?  

I have a batch of Belgian Dubbel in my 6.5 carboy and it gushed out through
the air lock big time yesterday afternoon.  I popped the airlock out, then
took a carboy cap and jammed a 3/8 plastic tube over the small outlet with
the large outlet capped, then coiled the end of the tube into a jar of
water, but there must be an easier/better way.

This is only the second time this has happened and the first time was a very
benign episode; short lived and not very messy.  This one was was more of a
"gusher" and I'd like to at least FEEL more prepared next time.......

Thanks for any input,


John in Tollhouse






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