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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  propane ("Haborak, Kevin")
  in defense of plastic fermenters ("John Misrahi")
  Beer preservation with yeast? (Ed Jones)
  re: propane (Paul Kensler)
  Re: Glass vs. Plastic (again) ("Joel Plutchak")
  Peter Blum dies in Detroit (Jeff Renner)
  How much priming sugar should I add? (Jake Isaacs)
  corioles effect ("Joseph Marsh")
  Acetobacter Infection (mohrstrom)
  Re:supply stores in southern MA (Steve C Cobble)
  RE: fermenting in plastic (Brian Lundeen)
  Plastic/glass (LJ Vitt)
  Muling Beers (mohrstrom)
  Re: Goose Island IPA clone ("Gary Smith")
  Vienna mild lager (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Acetobacter - Thanks for the help - one more question (DHinrichs)
  Oh heck, I wanted to make an IPA anyway ("Gary Smith")
  Plastic Containers - Another Technique (Don Lake)
  Buon Vino Mini-Jet Filter ("Colby Fry")
  George Fix (Peter Torgrimson)
  Kumiss (Jeff Renner)
  ball lock kegs, stupid brewer tricks ("dave holt")
  Travel Info (Steve Hill)


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:30:05 -0700
From: "Haborak, Kevin" <KHaborak at golder.com>
Subject: propane

I was recently in the market for a new house. One of the houses that we
looked at had converted a large propane grill and two stnad alone burners to
run off the natural gas from the house.  So you can definitely do what you
want to, but I would suggest using a contractor to get it done.


Kevin.


I believe God made man because he was dissapointed in monkeys. --Mark Twain


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:27:44 -0700
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: in defense of plastic fermenters


I can't say for everyone else, but i have never had to use a scrub brush on
my plastic buckets. I find a pressure washer does the job or just hot water
from the tap/hose.

John


Chad Gould said:

longer. Glass can get scratched, yes, but its much more difficult to do so -
a scrub brush certainly won't scratch glass, where a scrub brush could
scratch plastic in a way that's difficult to clean up afterwards. My
personal opinion is that glass is more difficult to clean, physically... but
plastic is more difficult to sanitize. Personally, I've had experience with
the later, and it wasn't pretty smelling -- one of the souring bacterias.





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:14:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at ironacres.com>
Subject: Beer preservation with yeast?

I posted this on the Brews & Views, but I thought I would ask the digest.

I've read that natural carbonation provides for longer storage life of beer
because the yeasties will scavenge the free oxygen that might otherwise stale
the beer. I'm curious to try this theory for my own, except I'm not going to
prime the beer after fermentation, nor do I plan to krausen it with freshly
fermenting beer. I'm willing to artifically carbonate, as usual. I'm asking
because a particulary tasty porter (and a couple of other beers I've made)
began to taste papery after a few months on tap. I don't detect any flavors
from infection that I am aware of, just stale, sort of papery beer. Could it
be that this is HSA rearing it's ugly head? And, if so, storage on yeast won't
help with this anyway.

I racked a CAP from the primary fermenter (2 weeks) to corny kegs last night
and now I'm beginning to slowly drop the temperature to lagering temps. I put
10 pounds of CO2 in to seat the seals, but did not artificially carb. I also
do not think there is much, if any, residual fermentation left. Given all that,
I have a couple of questions for the collective:

1. Will the storage on the yeast that drops out during lagering help at all
with the preservation of the beer? What I mean is, will storage on yeast help
keep the beer from staling?

2. Will the presence of the yeast cause off flavors if I store the beer at
around 42 degrees (after lagering) for several months before I force carbonate
it?

3. Should I dispense a couple of pints of beer before I force carbonate it to
cut down on foaming? Put another way, do I need to worry about the yeast acting
as nucleation points for the CO2?

Thank you,
Ed

- --
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: propane

>Would it be feasible to connect my outdoor burners
>to the big propane tank, and if so, how?

Tod,
I asked a similar question on the HBD about a month
ago.  I received several informed responses that said
yes, you "can" do it - the important point being that
the pressure for propane to liquefy does not change
from small (gas grill) to large (heat your house)
tanks.  Therefore, both tanks are at the same pressure
and can use the same regulators.  In fact, my big ol'
tank has the exact same fitting on it as my little gas
grill tank.  I'm sure somebody with more experience
with propane and propane accessories can state it more
eloquently, but that's the layman's summary I took
away from the responses I received.

Now, "how" is a different matter.  My large propane
tank is pretty near my brew-deck, so I had hoped to
find a pre-made solution for connecting it to my
burners.  I checked online, I checked local hardware
and BBQ stores, I checked with local propane and
propane accessory companies, and all I got was blank
stares.  I suppose that somebody with the proper
experience could permanently plumb the line and
fittings using copper and brass, but I really wanted
something flexible that could be coiled up and put
away after use - basically, something exactly like the
hose that connects my little tank to my gas grill,
just longer (maybe 10 - 12').  Either a replacement
hose with regulator, or an extension hose.  So far,
I've come up empty.

I'd sure be eager to know if anyone has found such a
thing and where they got it.


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:36:32 +0000
From: "Joel Plutchak" <plutchak at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Glass vs. Plastic (again)


"Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>You can ferment in plastic if you want. However, as you said, you
>will probably have to replace a plastic vessel every year or so. Glass
>lasts much longer.

   Do you have statistics for those statements?  The reason I ask is
that IME carboys tend to break well before plastic fermenters, and
I use plastic primaries almost exclusively with no infection problems--
the only infection I've had in the past several years involved brewing
outdoors and various small flying insects (it wasn't pretty).  I replace
the plastic fermenters roughly every 5-7 years strictly out of superstition.
My beers taste pretty good and do well in competition when I bother to
enter them.
   Lets see some studies and stats before raising this (non-)issue again.

Joel Plutchak
Brewing better through plastics in East-Central Illinois



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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:28:47 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Peter Blum dies in Detroit

Brewers

Some of you may have met Peter Blum, beer historian and author of the 
fine book "Brewed in Detroit," at the NHC 2000 where he spoke.  He 
died last week.  He was a fine gentleman with old country manners. 
His death is a loss to the entire brewing community.

Below is his obituary from the Detroit Free Press.

Jeff

================

Peter Blum: Brewer was tester, historian for Stroh

July 19, 2002

BY JEANNE MAY
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Peter Blum, who invented the formulas for Stroh's Light and Stroh's 
Signature beers, died of a heart attack July 12 at Cottage Hospital, 
Grosse Pointe Farms.

He was 78, lived in Grosse Pointe Park and was a beer historian.

"Peter became probably the leading authority on Michigan brewing 
history and the Stroh Brewing Co.," John Stroh III, president and 
chief executive officer of the Stroh Cos., said Thursday.

Mr. Blum wrote "Brewed in Detroit" in 1998 and had been president of 
the National Association of Breweriana Advertising and editor of the 
Breweriana Collector Journal. He also lectured frequently on the 
history of beer.

Brewing was in his blood when he was born in Czechoslovakia.

"His family had sensed the ill wind blowing across Europe," Stroh 
said. "They had a malt house in Czechoslovakia, and his family 
acquired a small malt house in New Jersey."

In 1939, they fled the Nazis and arrived in New Jersey. Mr. Blum was 15.

As soon as he graduated from high school, he enlisted in the Army and 
fought in Europe, earning a Purple Heart for injuries he suffered at 
the Battle of Anzio, Italy.

After the war, he earned a bachelor's degree at the University of 
Wisconsin, then attended the United States Brewers Academy.

He went to work for Pabst in Milwaukee, then for the Albert Schwill 
malt house in Chicago, then for Falstaff in St. Louis.

"We hired him away from Falstaff in 1970," Stroh said. "He came to 
run our pilot brewery. That's a very small-scale brewery used for 
testing formulations. It has a one-barrel capacity. He ran it until 
his retirement in 1989."

After he retired, he worked for Stroh as the company archivist.

"When he came to us in 1970, one of the things he noticed was the 
company didn't have much of an archive of historical material. As my 
grandfather put it, we were very good housekeepers."

Mr. Blum went to work on Stroh's history.

"He developed quite a collection over time," Stroh said. "Peter had a 
great eye for things and an ability to get there first. Until the day 
he died, he maintained and enhanced this collection for us."

Mr. Blum had also earned a master's degree in business administration 
from Washington University, St. Louis.

Survivors are two sons, James and Paul; three daughters, Terry 
Selman, Kathryn Shen and Elizabeth Nelson, and six grandchildren.

A memorial service will be at 11 a.m. Saturday at Grosse Pointe 
Unitarian Church, 17150 Maumee.
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:42:56 -0400
From: Jake Isaacs <rjisaa0 at uky.edu>
Subject: How much priming sugar should I add?

I'm brewing a Belgian Saison soon and would like to use 1.5 L champagne 
bottles I've been collecting (they cap nicely).  Do I need to change the 
amount of priming sugar from the 3/4 cup I use for 12 oz. bottles?  Is 
there a handy formula for making any necessary adjustments?



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:22:40 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: corioles effect

Well(harumph), I got my information from NPR The Weather Notebook 
orgininating at the Mount Washington weather observatory. And sinse 
weathermen are never wrong I suggest you argue with them. (harumph harumph)

Joe
Toung firmly in cheek.



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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:39:26 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Acetobacter Infection

Marc Hache duels with a nasty acetobacter infection:
> Not convinced that's the problem but at this point
> my already receding hairline has almost disappeared!
> I guess what's frustrating is that up until the
> batches started going bad, my process and equipment
> stayed the same.

Marc - with "everything the same", you may have inadvertently "selected"
for a resistant strain of bug.  Perhaps try a dose of bleach or StarSan,
etc. in rotation with the Iodaphor to see if that helps to kill it off.


Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 01:40:17 -0400
From: Steve C Cobble <stevecobble at juno.com>
Subject: Re:supply stores in southern MA


Anyone know of a brew supply store south of Boston? ( in Massachusetts,
that is...)
Steve Cobble
[650.2, 86.6] Apparent Rennerian


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:15:07 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: fermenting in plastic

This bit about replacing a plastic fermenter every year is news to me. I've
had some of mine for nearly a decade, not that that proves anything. I don't
want to be one of these people that say things like, I ferment my beer in an
old Chevy engine block, and people tell me it's the best beer they've ever
had. The last thing I want is to have somebody's batch spoiled by my
unverifiable anecdotes. So never mind that my plastic buckets are scratched
up, or that I have yet to see an explanation for how my beer wort finds
little nooks and crannies that are somehow off limits to my PBW and Star
San. I mean, none of you have tasted my beers and probably never will (well,
with the exception of a certain StrangeBrewer in Ottawa who has usurped my
Really Clever Name(tm) for their brew club in favour of yet another boring
acronym, sigh) so how are you to know my brews aren't sour, nasty, brutish
things that even an Australian wouldn't drink.

What I will do is point you to a really nifty solution that lets you have
your wort and drink it, too. They are called (for lack of a better marketing
name like WortSkins) fermentation bags, and I know of at least one retailer,
Paddock Wood NAJASCYYY, that sells them.

http://www.paddockwood.com/catalog_equipment_kegging.html

Simply place a bag inside your bucket or engine block (this is important, as
simply twist tying the filled bag shut in the middle of your floor will not
yield the desired results,... ummm, or so I'm told), ferment your wort, and
cleanup is as simple as tossing the bag in the trash (although I'm sure
someone is going to get on my case for promoting the dumping of yet more
plastics in our landfills).

Plastic. It's a good thing.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:31:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Plastic/glass






>Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:05:12 -0700
>From: "Brian Schar" <schar at cardica.com>
>Subject: Plastic, glass, polycarbonate

>I have been brewing for almost 10 years and fermenting exclusively in
>plastic, and I haven't had any problems.  I like plastic for several
>reasons.  The primary reason is safety.  I am uncomfortable with the 
>idea of
>lugging around big glass bottles full of hot liquid, in part because I 
>have
>known two brewers who have been hurt pretty badly by broken carboys.  

Please DO NOT put hot wort into a glass container!
Cool your wort before putting into a carboy.
You can use a wort chiller or put the kettle of hot wort
into a sink of cold water.  

I use carboys most of the time.  Move the filled carboys as little as 
possible.  I need to lift to rack, but I don't move them from room to 
room when I can help it.



=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:17:44 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Muling Beers

Marc Sedam discovers the illusion of airport security:
> Of course on the return flight I take the
> wonderful cornucopia of alcohol products
> ... through security at DFW in 5 seconds...
> The kicker? My Leatherman made it through
> security without any questions, comments,
> or pauses.

Ah yes, I remember the scrutiny my stash of Bell's got while muling them to
Atlanta, a _very_ pre-September 11th time ago.  Face it, this is not going
to get any better, just more consistently strict.

The answer is to check your bottles as luggage.  Yes, it can be done.  It
only requires a BBoB.  The BBoB (Big Box o' Beer)is simply a
pre-constructed, multi-layered corrugated cardboard box.  Get _two_ of the
appropriate size (mine holds over a case of longnecks).  The outer box is
well reinforced with packing tape, then take the second box and cut the top
and bottom off.  The top and bottom are used to line the, wait for it ...
top and bottom of the BBoB.  The remaining wall portion is then trimmed to
double the walls of the BBoB.  Then, fit smaller boxes inside to hold the
brews.  The piece of resistor is a set of three sturdy nylon straps - two
around the box the short way, and one the long way.  Loop the long one
around the short ones at each intersection, and leave some slack at the top
for a carrying handle.  Don't waste your money on the Sporting Goods Store
Coughlan's-type straps.  Get good MIL-spec OD green rigging straps with
metal buckles from your local purveyor of millitary-industrial complex
surplus items.

Pack the bottles snugly.  I don't pad them, but make certain that nothing
clanks by stuffing paper in the center of the bottles.  Secure the bottles
in all three axis. At the airport, they'll ask about the contents of the
box.  I tell them, "Product samples".  In dozens of trips I've only had
three bottles broken, and two were when my luggage, instead of going to AZO
(Kalamazoo), went to AMS (Amsterdam).  And, the Dutch didn't even have the
courtesy to replace them with a couple fresh Grolsch ...


Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:19:30 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: Re: Goose Island IPA clone

 
> Not sure if anyone saw this post, 
> but I was wondering if anyone had 
> a recipe for Goose Island IPA. I 
> tried it once while in the chicago-land 
> area and would like to duplicate it. 
> 
> Thanks and go Red Sox
> 
> Red Sox fan


Heh,  

White Sox = Chicago

Red Sox = Boston

Goose Island = Chicago

Interesting approach to getting a recipe.

Since asking for a Chicago beer clone & then raising 
the flag of an opposing team to both Chicago teams: 
 -2 points. 

Swing votes from Red Sox fans:
+1 point

To those who root for other teams: 
 -1 point

To people who only the games on a slow day when it's 
raining or they're at a homebrew party & don't 
particularly care who wins:
0 points

To those who think you meant to say 
"go White Sox" & " White Sox fan"
and feel your angst for what they see as a faux pas will 
give sympathy credit:
+1 point

To those who read it & made the now famous 
"Shhhtttt!" sound heard by when the last beer can was 
opened at Alaska's North Pole & couldn't ignore the 
faux pas:
 -1 point

To those who think you first asked for a Chicago beer 
clone & then intentionally said "go Red Sox" & " Red 
Sox fan" and who admire great Chutzpa when they see 
it:
+1 point

To those on this list who actually have a clone recipe for 
Goose Island & appreciate your taste in beers (my fav is 
the anniversary ale with Christmas Ale & Summer Kolsh 
right behind):
+2 points

So... you're points ahead. Excellent approach!

:)

Gary

BTW, I have no clone for Goose Island but would like 
one for the above myself.





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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:22:23 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Vienna mild lager

Scotty Morgan <Scott.Morgan at Sun.COM>, who should bring an Apple for 
the teacher (I'd prefer one with the new 17" monitor) if he really 
wants an early mark, asked about my Vienna mild lager, as did another 
brewer in private email.

This was inspired by George Fix's recipe in his "Maertzen, 
Oktoberfest, Vienna" book.  When he wrote it 11 years ago, good 
Vienna malt was not available in the US, so his recipes use two-row 
Pilsner malt and crystal malts.  Nowadays, with high quality German 
Vienna (and Munich) malt easily available, we can use the proper 
malts.

Vienna is a beautiful malt and produces soft, gentle malty beers. 
Perfect for the style it's intended for (no surprise).  As a friend 
said, a Vienna should shout "Malt!" and whisper "hops."

George's recipe for "Modern Viennese Mild" was for 6.75 lbs. Pilsner 
quality malt, 4 oz. German light crystal malt, 4 ounces German dark 
crystal malt, and 4 oz. English caramel malt (20L), OG 1.044-46, 
18-20 IBU.  He liked Tettnanger for first addition, Styrian Goldings 
for 2nd addition, and Saaz for 3rd addition.

For 7.75 gallons, I used 16 gallons hard well water + 2 tsp CaCl2 
boiled and decanted.  The resulting low residual alkalinity resulted 
in a low mash pH (~5.0) due to to the acidity of the slightly dark 
Vienna.  Didn't seem to cause a problem in the brewing or final 
product.

I used 11.25 lbs Durst Vienna and 0.5 lb. Briess Carapils.  I mashed 
in at 153F, the temperature fell to 151F at the end of 45 minutes (I 
think I wrote earlier that I mashed in at 145 - guess I 
misremembered).  Raised to 160 with boiling water and the propane 
burner while recirculating, rested another 45 minutes, then mashed 
off.

Hopped with 1.5 oz. Hallertauer  at 2.6% alpha for 50 minutes for estimated 8 IBU
1.0 oz. Crystal  at  4.6% for 35 minutes for estimated 7 IBU
0.6 oz. Crustal for 5 minutes for 5 minutes for estimated 4 IBU

It's been sort of lagering at 50F while the CAP fermented but tasted 
great at only two weeks out of the primary.  Soft, lightly bitter, 
spicyu from the hops and malt, easy drinking.  This is for the lite 
beer crowd, although I suspect some of them will go out and buy Bud 
Lite.

I'll rack it once more and carbonate it as it lagers properly.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:29:15 -0500
From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com
Subject: RE: Acetobacter - Thanks for the help - one more question

From: "Hache, Marc" <HacheM at PIOS.COM>
Subject: Acetobacter - Thanks for the help - one more question

>One other possible source is the turkey baster I use for a liquid thief.
The
>owner of my local brew shop traced his infection to that. Apparently it is
>very difficult to sanitize rubber effectively. Will be relegating the
baster
>to it's intended purpose and getting a proper wine thief.

Another thing to remember, do not return samples back to the fermentor.
Drink them, toss them (gasp), just do not return back to your fermentor as
they can pick up nasties while outside the clean fermentor.

Dave, in minnetonka, mn



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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:44:45 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: Oh heck, I wanted to make an IPA anyway

Hi all,

Self effacement is good for the soul it's said. Well... 
something like that anyway. So I bare to you all my 
latest goof. Ahem... series of goofs in a row.

My RIMS is finally completed. There's been much 
thought that's gone into it. Many helpful bits of advice 
from those who have built & designed RIMS systems 
before and sage pointers from many others on different 
topics related to my goal of making consistently 
excellent beer.

History: I've been brewing one thing or another since 
1977. Thanks to many years of several colleges, a past 
professional career, two "Big D's, relocations & a career 
change, the brewing has been spotty so I'm not a pro at 
brewing but I've been at it enough I do understand parts 
of the big picture.

Equipment: 
All stainless construction, no brass Exception is copper 
sparge arm.
Single tier RIMS
Converted sabco kegs
SABCO false bottoms
3" thermometer in each vessel
SIght gauge on boil kettle & HLT
Extra long Rims chamber with 6,000 watt ULWD 
element at 120V =1,650 watts
Omega PID Temperature controller
Two mag pumps, one peristaltic pump
Polysulfone quick disconnects with Norprene tubing
1/2" full bore valves
Insulated mash tun & HLT
Counterflow chiller
1 flame element (a modified camp chef)

Theory of operation:
Peristaltic brings in Brita filtered water from carboys, to 
the boil kettle. Temp is brought to the mash temp & 
pumped into the mash tun by pump #2 (#2's Output is 
dedicated to the input of the RIMS chamber). Once flow 
is established, the RIMS element is turned on and the 
PID takes care of temperature changes from here on 
through the mashing cycle.. 

More Brita water is brought to the boil kettle by 
peristaltic. Just before mashing is completed, this water 
is heated to sparge temp & pump #1 pumps it to the 
HLT.

When sparge starts, pump #2 input is connected to the 
HLT output, the PID is set to sparge temp and the 
recirculating arm remains in place but now acts as the 
sparge arm. 

Pump #1 input connects to mash output and the pump 
output connects to the boilkettle.

Now sparge happens.

Clean, sweet, all at arms length & only one flame 
element.

So... I should be able to make a decent beer given this 
equipment, eh? Well....

I thought my christening brew should be something 
lighter than my usual old ales & doppel wizens so I 
opted for a pale ale. My next door neighbor Ted has 
wanted to see my project in action and repeatedly 
asked to see it in operation. So when I ground the grain 
& started mashing, I put up the brew flag, went next 
door & told him I was starting but that it was my first 
batch with the system and I'd like to just show it to him 
in action & then I'd need to concentrate on what I was 
doing so I'd need to be alone this first time. NP was the 
reply...

As you might expect, he was so interested he was 
asking all kinds of questions & didn't leave. Since this 
was the RIMS maiden run, I kept finding things I 
needed to change & fix for the future (basically running 
around like the chicken with it's head cut off doing this, 
fixing that) & Ted started asking involved questions right 
at all the critical times like when I needed to switch 
pumps or change the flow of fluids.

Long story made shorter...

When I transferred the hot water from the bolikettle to 
the HLT, Ted started asking questions and offering his 
ideas on what was happening & I tried to explain what 
what actually going on, heard the boilkettle go empty & 
shut off the pump & answered his question. I neglected 
to shut off the valve though and gravity pressure started 
pushing water back into the boil kettle. When I did shut 
off the valve it wasn't in time and about 2-3 gal of water 
backed up into the boil kettle & I didn't notice it.

I finished the sparge, started the boil, Ted finally left and 
about this time I started seeing things weren't adding 
up. The color in the sight gauge was too light. I took a 
sample, cooled it & saw the spec grav from the boil 
kettle was about .35. I understood why I was short of 
sparge water at the end & my backflow from not turning 
the valve when the HLT was full causing dilution of the 
wort. 

So...I connected the mash tun up to the boil kettle & 
infused 2 more remaining gallons of mash to the boil 
kettle making it 13 gallons at the start of the boil. I had 
to boil it so much longer to get the spec grav right. In 
the midst of the chaos, But... now I discovered my hops 
mistake; in my confusion I got the order of the hops 
wrong so I added way too much in the bittering stage 
but since I wanted some hop aroma at the end I had to 
the boil for aroma.

I haven't yet worked out the IBU's yet but it's way up 
there. The 90 min boil became 3 hours and there might 
be some astringency from the secondary infusion of 
mash to up the lost spec grav. Probably not too much, 
but some, maybe.

The beer's working nicely in the basement right now 
and the starting spec grav is .45 but it has the hop 
quotient of a Sierra Nevada plus. Not quite what I 
planned on (though I do like the hops myself but wanted 
the neighbors & my bluegrass festival friends to have a 
nice mild brew to show what I've been working at).

Lessons learned/remembered:  

1. The RIMS works wonderfully. I might like a bit faster 
ramping speed when changing mash temps but it's just 
fine as is.

2. Never but never ask someone full of interest & 
questions to see what you're doing when it's your first 
time doing something in which you haven't memorized 
the routines yourself.

3. Do use a timer.

4. Plan your work & work your plan; be sure you have 
each step done in order including the order of 
ingredients.


I suspect this beer will be enjoyable but with the hops 
it's got in it, the starting gravity should have been .55 so 
it really doesn't fit into a standard category but IPA's 
probably pretty close..

Next time, the moon...

Cheers,

Gary

Gary Smith

http://musician.dyndns.org

"Grief can take care of itself, but to get the full value of 
a joy you must have somebody to divide it with."
 - Mark Twain -




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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:57:50 -0400
From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com>
Subject: Plastic Containers - Another Technique

I have been using an unusual technique for over a year to brew with
plastic loosely based on a article in Zymurgy a while back.  For my
primary fermenter, I use a 6.5 gallon plastic container with a 3-inch
diameter screw-on lid.  They originally held caustic cleaner used in the
brewing industry given to me by a pro-brewer friend.

Because my main goal was to eliminate cleaning those damn narrow-neck
glass carboys, I line the container with food-grade plastic bags.  After
the primary fermentation, I rack the beer to another container
(unfortunately a glass carboy at this point) and dispose of the bag with
all its spooge, yeast & glop.  No smell and no mess!  I simply rinse out
the plastic container and store it until the next time.

Another added benefit is that I eliminated the blow off tube which has
enhanced my yield.  The cleaning of the carboys after a secondary is a
breeze since the activity is minimal.  The question of sanitation of the
plastic is moot since the bags are sanitary due to the high heat
extrusion process of manufacturing them.

One weakness in the technique is the bag opening.  So far, I've had the
best results by pulling the top of the bag outside of the container as
far as it will go and then screwing the lid on with the bag edges
hanging on the outside.  I then take (sanitized) scissors and cut the
bag around the lid and as close to the lid as possible.  Because of the
potential of contamination, I do restrict myself from opening the lid
and peaking in (my favorite part) until I believe the primary
fermentation is finished.

I highly recommend this technique for anyone who hates cleaning carboys
and handling glass.  The only thing better would be a conical
fermentator.  But I can't find one that will fit in my chest freezer.

Don Lake
Orlando FL



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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:51:04 -0400
From: "Colby Fry" <colbyfry at pa.net>
Subject: Buon Vino Mini-Jet Filter

I am interested in filtering my beer and my B-day is coming up. My wife ask me
what I wanted and the wheels started to turn. I would like to filter my beer,
but I do not want to secondary in a cornie (if it is possible). I keg most of
my beer, but i like to see what's goin' on in there. I am reading about this
product on several web-sites that is a motorized filter and is made for wine.
The item is Buon Vino Mini-Jet Filter. Listermann sells it as does a number of
other co.'s. The questions I pose are:
1. Does this product perform well with beer?
2. What filters are best to use?
3. Will I still have to 2ndary in a cornie?
4. Is it worth the cash ($165)?

Thank you in advance.
Colby Fry





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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:21:31 -0500
From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net>
Subject: George Fix

  The following appeared in the Spring 2002 issue of the Rice Owlmanac, 
the alumni newsletter for Rice University.  I thought it might be of 
interest to some in the HBD community.

"Nancy Fix Anderson, sister of George J. Fix III (M.S.), writes:  "My 
brother, George, died of cancer on March 10 at the age of 62.  After 
receiving his M.S. from Rice, George went on to get a Ph.D. in math at 
Harvard.  At the time of his death, he was the chair of the Department 
of Mathematics at Clemson U.  He was very prominent in his field, and 
the Rice Department of Mathematics should feel quite proud of him.  

"Dr. Max Bunzburger, a professor of math at Iowa State U., wrote the 
following regarding George.

"George was one of the pioneers of finite element methods.  He wrote the 
first or one of the first papers on finite element methods for 
eigenvalue problems, finite element methods for time-dependent problems, 
finite element methods for problems with singularities, least-squares 
finite element methods, finite element methods for PDEs of mixed type, 
the effects of quadrature errors on finite element solutions, finite 
element methods for compressible flows, and mixed and hybrid finite 
element methods.  He was the co-author, along with Gil Strang, of the 
seminal book AN ANALYSIS OF FINITE ELEMENT METHODS, which became one of 
the most important and influential applied mathematics books ever published.

"George was a man of great energy, enthusiasm, knowledge, talent, and 
most of all, of great heart.  He gave unselfishly to his students and 
co-workers, all of whom benefited greatly from interacting with him. 
 His colleagues, friends, and family will miss him immensely."

Peter Torgrimson
Austin, TX





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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:10:44 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Kumiss

Brewers

In the past, some of you may remember my mentioning kumikss, the 
fermented mare's milk of central Asia.  I've used this as an example 
of how we might not notice flaws in our own beer, because it gives us 
that kick to our brain's pleasure center from the alcohol.  We come 
to associate the flavor, flawed though it may be, with the kick. 
I've tasted some horribly oxidized homebrew and wine whose makers 
smacked their lips over.  I've called this the kumiss factor, 
imagining Kyrgyzstanis smacking their lips over kumiss that we might 
find nasty, and remarking, "That sure was a good batch last Thursday!"

Well, there is a really good article on kumiss in the international 
NY Times this week at 
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/19/international/19KYRG.html .  Hope 
you all enjoy it.  Maybe some of you may even be moved to try making 
it yourself.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:06:41 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: ball lock kegs, stupid brewer tricks

Has anyone bought ball lock kegs from RCB Fermentation Equipment?  Were you 
happy with the kegs?  Did the o-rings need replacing?  Etc. I need a source 
for reasonably priced kegs and am open for suggestions.  TIA

I recently stepped up to 10 gallon batches and I have a shortage of 
available kegs.  This led to my stupid brewer trick on Sunday.  Normally, I 
won't drink homebrew while brewing.  What!!! Heresy, man!!!I want to enjoy 
my brewday.  Too many times I was ready to sleep before it was time to put 
the beer to bed.

There's not much left in that English Strong Ale keg, 10% abv.  I can use 
one of those kegs for the ESB and then brew the APA.  I thought maybe there 
was a growler and a pint left.  I'll have the pint and take the growler to 
the step-son.  Two growlers and 2 pints later.  Damn, can't waste this beer 
and no one is here to help me.

With 15 minutes left in the boil, I added the flavor/aroma hops.  I sat down 
on the sofa for a brief rest....I woke up an indeterminate time later.  
Hours!  Oh crap, I was brewing.  Didn't have too much evaporation loss, well 
maybe because now it's raining outside.

I added the finishing hops and called it a day.  I wanted a little hoppier 
APA, I guess I got it.  I'll adjust the flavor/aroma by dry hopping.  I am 
happy to say, it was bubbling away like mad the next morning.

Moral of the story:  Buy more kegs or pick a keg to empty that isn't so 
robust. Or have help.

Part of the joy of brewing is sharing and thinking up the name of the brew.  
So far, we've come up with Passed Out Pale Ale.

Cheers!
Dave Holt
Forest Lakes, AZ




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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:26:39 -0400
From: Steve Hill <stevehill at comcast.net>
Subject: Travel Info

Hey Guys and Gals,

I am looking for anyone that has access to cheep air fare.  I need
connections.

If you can SERIOUSLY help out, please email the sites or persons of contact.

Thanks
Your fellow homebrewer!

Steve Hill




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