---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Beer storage, fermenter material (Randy Barnes)
  re: dry ice (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  priming sugar (Saison) (leavitdg)
  re: propane ("Brian Morgan")
  Re: Glass vs. Plastic (again) ("Chad Gould")
  RE: Propane ("Steven Parfitt")
  Beer Road Trip ("Bates, Floyd SEPCO")
  Re: plastic primarys, septic tank, propane ("Larry Bristol")
  Homebrewing chemicals, septic tanks and the environment (John Scime)
  re: beer names (Paul Kensler)
  Re: toasting malt (Rob Dewhirst)
  Re: septic tanks and brewing (Rob Dewhirst)
  RE: fermenting in an engine block ("Drew Avis")
  RE:  ball lock kegs, stupid brewer tricks (Mark Alfaro)
  Re: Beer preservation with yeast? (Kevin Crouch)
  Traquair House, etc. (Scott Perfect)
  Pike's "Naughty Nellie" (eevans)
  Fw: Stockmarket Advice, virutally speechless, Northwest Trip ("Dave Burley")
  Hops and head (gremake)
  Re: Brewing without lifting ("Larry Bristol")
  ball lock kegs, plastic vs glass debate ("dave holt")
  Champagne yeast taste effects? ("Doug Moyer")
  Ball lock kegs (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: Acetobacter - Thanks for the help - one more question (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: HERMS / pump - Immersion chiller as HERMS coil (Kent Fletcher)
  Propane - Todd and Paul's questions (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: What's in your fridge (beer snacks) ("Kevin Morgan")


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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:18:43 -0700
From: Randy Barnes <rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Subject: Beer storage, fermenter material

Ed Jones asked about preservation of beer on yeast. I've had great success
with leaving a minimal amount of yeast in kegs, not intentionally, just the
normal amount left behind after racking. Storage at low temperatures (my
fridge is at about 38 deg. F) may be the key. I brought a 1 1/2 yr. old
Rauchbier to a meeting tonight, and a BJCP Master judge highly complimented
it on its quality.

Regarding fermenters, I've switched from plastic to stainless pots. The
tall, narrow turkey-fryer style. No airlock, set the lid on and put a
plastic trash bag over the top to keep any nasties from "seeping" around the
not-airtight seal. They're unbreakable, easy to sanitize by cleaning then
boiling a couple of inches of water in them (with the lid on). I didn't have
any problems with plastic, however, except I like the idea of heat
sanitizing. I use glass for long-term storage of meads.

Randy in San Diego


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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:14:55 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: re: dry ice

Hi,

I'm a little bit slow with HBDigest (holiday in Germany).
"Kevin Boyer" <kboyer at houston.rr.com asked about using dry ice to cool the
wort.
Dry ice (solid carbondioxyde ) has a temperature of approx. -80 C (-176 F).
In (hot) water it immediately starts to boil. So you will get a lot of foam,
but no fast drop in temperature.
I don't know anything about the potential infection danger, I think it
depends on the source of the CO2.
When you airate your wort, most of the CO2 will be blown off.

Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema http://www.hopbier.myweb.nl



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 06:06:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: priming sugar (Saison)

I am not sure...but have used this yeast many times...and find that it,
like some wine and other belgian styles keep working in the bottle..

I think that the next time I use it I will be closer to 1/2 cup corn
sugar for a 5-5.5 gallon batch..the first few that you have may
be a little under carbonated...but over time they will gain...I think.

It is not uncommon (for me) to leave some of these in the fridge for
several months and find that they are way over carbonated...

Happy Brewing!

 .Darrell


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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:05:06 -0400
From: "Brian Morgan" <brian-morgan at cinci.rr.com>
Subject: re: propane

Paul and Tod wrote:
>>Would it be feasible to connect my outdoor burners
>>to the big propane tank, and if so, how?
>Tod,
>Now, "how" is a different matter. My large propane
>tank is pretty near my brew-deck, so I had hoped to
>find a pre-made solution for connecting it to my
>burners. I checked online, I checked local hardware
>and BBQ stores, I checked with local propane and
>propane accessory companies, and all I got was blank
>stares. I suppose that somebody with the proper
>experience could permanently plumb the line and
>fittings using copper and brass, but I really wanted
>something flexible that could be coiled up and put
>away after use - basically, something exactly like the
>hose that connects my little tank to my gas grill,
>just longer (maybe 10 - 12'). Either a replacement
>hose with regulator, or an extension hose. So far,
>I've come up empty.

Did you try RV supply shops?  RV's and campers use propane as well, and I
would think there would be some long hose runs in some of those vehicles.
They might be able to make or order one.
   Brian
   Cincinnati



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:34:02 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Glass vs. Plastic (again)

> "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >You can ferment in plastic if you want. However, as you said, you
> >will probably have to replace a plastic vessel every year or so. Glass
> >lasts much longer.
>    Do you have statistics for those statements?  The reason I ask is
> that IME carboys tend to break well before plastic fermenters, and
> I use plastic primaries almost exclusively with no infection problems--
> the only infection I've had in the past several years involved brewing
> outdoors and various small flying insects (it wasn't pretty).  I replace
> the plastic fermenters roughly every 5-7 years strictly out of
superstition.
> My beers taste pretty good and do well in competition when I bother to
> enter them.

Hmm... To me, the factor in replacement regardless of cleaning techniques
would have to involve how long you can hold a liquid in plastic before the
plastic starts taking on characteristics of the liquid itself. Perhaps even
then you could probably still brew decent beer, but my personal superstition
would wonder about whether any of the old beer flavor would leak over, and
whether a beer-smelling plastic bucket on its own could be totally clean,
regardless of cleaning technique.

But I know of no studies that explore this, and even then I would say that
its possible different plastic buckets have a different absorbtion rate.
>From my perspective, glass will last as long as you are careful with it. I
suppose plastic will last as long too.





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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:48:52 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Propane

If you wanna brew out you've got to light her up; propane.
If you wanna get down, brew on the ground; propane.
She don't light, she don't light, she don't light; propane.

If you got bad news, you wanna kick them blues; propane.
When your out of gas, and you got no stash of; propane.
She don't light, she don't light, she don't light; propane.

If your gas is gone and you wanna brew on; propane.
Don't forget this fact, you can't sparage and knock out; Without propane.
She don't light, she don't light, she don't light; propane.

She don't light, she don't light, she don't light;  NO! propane.

With all due respect to E.C.


Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:49:19 -0500
From: "Bates, Floyd SEPCO" <floyd.bates at shell.com>
Subject: Beer Road Trip

All:

I am planning a 7-10 day trip to test my body's limitations at alcohol
excretion.  I will be flying to Seattle and ultimately ending up in
Portland.  Can you help me plan my trip by providing me with a list of
breweries/brewpubs that I should visit as I head south?  I can do my own
homework if you can provide a brewery name and town.

Thanks in advance.



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:53:48 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: plastic primarys, septic tank, propane

On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:08:46 -0400, Tod H Lewark <mrgoodbeer at juno.com>
wrote:

>     I'm moving to a country house with a septic tank  and propane heat.
>Regarding the septic tank, are there any sanitizers or other chemicals I
>should or should not use in brewing, winemaking, or housekeeping?

Just remember that a septic system only works if it is alive, so you do
not want to pour so many chemicals down the drain that you kill the
microorganisms doing the work.  But don't get panicky!  Think about how
much iodophor (for example) you would need to pour into the relatively
HUGE volume of the septic tank to get the same concentration you use to
sanitize a 5 gallon fermenter.  The brewing chemicals going into your
septic system will become so diluted that the system is relatively safe
(unless you are brewing something like 50 b. every day).

On the positive side, be sure to dump any trub and any other unwanted
yeasties down the drain!  Your septic system will love you for this.

>     Would it be feasible to connect my outdoor burners to the big
>propane tank, and if so, how?

Just like the little propane tanks, there is a regulator that controls
the pressure of the propane coming out of the tank going into your
house.  Your new connection must be downstream from that regulator. 
The regulator itself is probably not physically on (or even near) the
big tank.  It is more likely to be found somewhere near the house where
the gas service enters the structure, and probably looks somewhat like
a gas meter.

I would suggest that adding your own gas connections is NOT a
do-it-yourself type of project, but your propane supply company
probably has service people who could do the job.  The most expensive
part of it would probably be running the new gas line (since I assume
you would want it to be underground).

>     I have a nice antique gas stove I've brewed on for about 15 years
>also. Can I convert it to propane, and if so, how?

There are kits available for converting stoves from methane to propane.
 You should be able to find them at just about any good hardware or
home store.  One of the main factors for the conversion is to replace
the actual burners, because propane burns at a higher temperature than
does methane.  I do not know what the rest of the conversion might
involve.

OTOH, if your stove is a high value collectible antique, you might want
to consider the impact conversion might have on its value.  At the
least, you would certainly want to keep the original parts so that it
could be "restored" someday.

>     There is a slow spring (like a faucet  on medium opening) I will
>have tested, downhill. Any suggestions on a low-flow pump? I also have
>city water.

I have no advice in this regard.  Sorry.

Regards,

Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 06:12:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Scime <jascime at yahoo.com>
Subject: Homebrewing chemicals, septic tanks and the environment

Tod H Lewark asks about his septic system and the
affect of chemical sanitizers.  As it happens, Drew
Avis and I (both mebers of HOZERS - the 'Hull/Ottawa
Zymurgic Enterprises and Research Society' - a name
derived from the seminal Canadian cult film "Strange
Brew") have been researching this very issue. We don't
have any solid answers yet, but here are some
suggestions that might be of use.   

Generally speaking, if you're on a septic system
chances are you're also drawing water from a well,
which means you should be aware that chemicals can
leach into the water table, and from there into your
drinking supply and that of your neighbours.

When in doubt about the disposal of a chemical
substance save it in old jars/bottles/buckets and take
it to your municipal hazardous waste disposal site
(held twice yearly in my municipality).  Some
towns/cities have permanent facilities where you can
dispose of anything from used oil, paint thinner and
paint, to gasoline, etc.  They will certainly take
your used sanitizer. Of course, this is also a good
practice for city-brewers, since whatever you flush is
eventually "recycled" through municipal water
purification plants, and consumed again.

Regarding "safer" santizer, in past e-mail
correspondence with a brewert British Columbia,
Canada, (an organic operation) we were told that they
used a product called Oxonia, made by Ecolab. It is
peroxyacetic acid - a mix of hydrogen peroxide and
acetic acid. Apparently it breaks down into water and
acetic acid, which can be neutralized by the addition
of baking soda - a simple pH strip test will tell you
when it has become pH neutral and safe to flush. 

Lastly, it is important to follow the "three Rs":
1.  Reduce - make only as much santizer/cleanser as
you require (this will also save $$);
2.  Reuse - when stored in a sealed bucket, you can
reuse what you make.  You can monitor the
effectiveness of some sanitizers with a simple ph test
(I think  the papers are in a lower range than those
used for mashing) - this will enable you to use the
mixture until the ph drops out of effective range.
3.  Recycle - dispose of spent product responsibly (as
per the above suggestions).

Hope this helps. 

John Scime and Drew Avis
HOZERS

BTW - one of the best ways to protect your septic
system is to use a laundry soap that does not contain
filler material, which can and will eventually plug
drain pipes and weaping beds - my wife and I use a
liquid soap for this reason. 






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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 06:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: beer names

Dave Holt said:  "Part of the joy of brewing is
sharing and thinking up the name of the brew."

That reminds me of the batch of "Armpit Amber" that I
brewed with my friend Rob Hanson...  Perhaps I should
keep that story to myself, at least while there is
still beer in the keg I'm trying to get rid of - er,
wanting to share.


Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:46:47 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: toasting malt

At 01:11 AM 7/23/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Subject: RE:  Toast My malt

On thing to be mindful of is the smell.  I heavily toasted some unmalted 
barley a few months back and the whole house reeked of burnt popcorn for 
days.  No smoke either, and I was doing this at the recommended 300-350F.

30 mins probably won't create much of a problem, but just thought I would 
warn you.



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:02:05 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: septic tanks and brewing

At 01:11 AM 7/23/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Regarding the septic tank, are there any sanitizers or other chemicals I
>should or should not use in brewing, winemaking, or housekeeping?

So long as you are pouring diluted versions of sanitizing solutions into 
the septic system and using common sense, most brewing chemicals should not 
be a problem.  Once your dilute solutions go down the drain and dilute 
again in several hundred gallons of water, they won't be a hazard to the 
beneficial organisms in your tank.  Even if you manage to kill off a lot of 
microbes in your tank, healthy tanks rebound quickly.

There are a few things I won't run into my septic system, but they aren't 
chemicals.  I don't put large amounts of spent grain or hop leaves down the 
drain, and I don't run the exhaust port from my chiller water into the 
septic because of the volume of water (and I reuse that water in the 
garden).  I am far more worried about clogging the lateral field than 
chemically contaminating the tank.

Your best bet is to contact your local extension office (or an extension 
office in a neighboring rural county if your county is mostly urban) and 
ask if they have pamphlets or web pages on septic maintenance.  There are 
many good net sites on this subject, but regional variations in soil and 
health regulations can vary, so a local source is better.

Most of the generic instruction booklets that talk about care and feeding 
of a septic system are easily related to brewing instead of cooking in the 
kitchen.



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:25:06 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: fermenting in an engine block

Winterpeg Brew Bomber and virtual Hozer Brian Lundeen reveals the secret to
his high-torque fermentations when he writes "I ferment my beer in an old
Chevy engine block."  Luxury!  I can only dream of fermenting in plastic,
glass, stainless, or an old Chevy engine block!  I have to ferment in an old
cardboard box I found out at the dump, although I managed to clean out most
of the mould and rat droppings.

Drew Avis ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go, because,
man, they're gone.




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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:56:03 -0700
From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at qcpi.com>
Subject: RE:  ball lock kegs, stupid brewer tricks

Hi Dave,
I have purchased ball lock kegs from RCB Fermentation Equipment a few 
times. The kegs I received were in good condition. Since these are used 
kegs, you should replace all the seals. You can purchase the replacement 
seals from RCB, or from your local homebrew shop for a couple bucks. On my 
last order with them, I bought seven keg lids to replace ones I had with no 
pressure relief. They threw in new O rings for the lids, plus an extra 
screw in relief valve for free. I would recommend them. No affiliation, 
just a satisfied customer.

Mark Alfaro
Chula Vista, CA
1950, 262.1 Rennerian







Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:06:41 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: ball lock kegs, stupid brewer tricks
Has anyone bought ball lock kegs from RCB Fermentation Equipment? Were you
happy with the kegs? Did the o-rings need replacing? Etc. I need a source
for reasonably priced kegs and am open for suggestions. TIA



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:27:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Beer preservation with yeast?

Ed, 

in response to your questions about "preserving" your
beer with yeast, you can find and incredible amount of
experience, prose, and solutions in the archives here.
In short, yeast can have wonderful benefits in keeping
a beer tasting fresh, but there are many ways in which
yeast can ruin your beer if not treated properly. As
far as lagering goes, I've found that a fully
attenuated lager and one without a lot of residual
dextrins,  will withstand the trials of time better
than one that is not. 

This has become a point of increasing interest to me
in my lagering trials.  I once had a big lager that
didn't get down below 1.020 lagering for over 2
months.  Just as I was about to give it a clean bill
of health, tap it up and enjoy its malty wonders, a
thermostat mixup left my lagering freezer **off** for
5 days in 70 degree weather while I was out of town. 
Not thinking too much of it, I tapped into a foamy,
rough Belgian Lager, with ugly esters and phenols. 
After a fit of rage and denial,  with over a pint of
7% bock in me, I said "Bock,  you are dead to me".  
But I let it rest, and it eventually came back into
shape over a few more weeks, but things would never be
the same between us.  

Another beer, a golden Maibock that did ferment out
nicely to 1012 or so,  kept very well in its
bottle-conditioned womb for 8 months, though, it did
benefit nicely from a week at fridge temps before
serving.  

You state that you are not going to bottle condition,
but will leave live yeast in the bottle.  It is highly
likely that, depending on how you fill it,  the flavor
will diminish some due to the fact that the yeast is
not metabolically active, but it should, however
survive the trauma much better than one that is
filtered.  If youv've been gentle and thorough with it
at all prior stages,  you shouldn't have a problem.  

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:07:52 -0700
From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: Traquair House, etc.


Julio, in 3993, asked:

>Among the highlights of our trip was a visit to Traquair House and its
>brewery. Now my quest is to try and emulate their House Ale.

>I have saved bits of past postings regarding this Ale. As far as I
know,
I>t is a Scotch Ale, 7.2% abv (strong ale?), EKG hops, H. Baird malt and

>black malt. Also caramelization is obtained by boiling the first gallon

>of a five gal batch, down to a quart and adding this caramelized wort
>back at the end of the regular boil. Will probably use Wyeast Scottish
>Ale. Ray Daniels also talks about Traquair House Ale in his book:
>Designing Great Beers, Chapter on Scotish Ales.

>Any guidance, help, notes, recipes will be greately appreciated.


Noonan's book "Scotch Ale" indicates 1% Roasted Barley.

Please don't use black malt...

Hops additions at beginning of boil and 15 minutes before


- ------------------

Gentlemen, what would your dynamics instructors say?

You are all aware that you are speaking of Coriolis

ACCELERATION.

- ------------------

Marc - Be glad you weren't caught with blunt-nosed

child's scissors in your purse as my wife was last month...

(I'll spare you the unfunny aspects of this and keep it light.)

- ------------------

Scott A. Perfect
San Ramon, CA






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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:17:18 GMT
From: eevans at moscow.com
Subject: Pike's "Naughty Nellie"

Uh, long time listener, first time poster.

Last time I was in Seattle I snagged a bottle of Pike's Naughty Nellie, and
I really liked it - very well balanced. I'd like to brew a similar thing up
before I dive into the winter beers.

The official description is "...a mildy hopped beer with a complex malt
character and a soft creamy head. Naughty Nellie's possesses a soft 
fruitiness with light yeast esters of apricot and orange."[1]

I'm pretty much in the dark figuring out a recipe. Given the recent post
about vienna malts modest character, I think it's good candidate.

Any tips on yeast would also be appreciated. Wyeasts 1318 (London Ale
III) "fruity, very light, soft balanced palate, finishes slightly sweet"[2]
sounds promising. 1332 (Northwest Ale) is probably better given it's "One of
the classic ale strains from the Northwest U.S. Breweries. Produces a malty
and mildly fruity ale with good depth and complexity."[2] I've never used
either of these, though.

Cheers,

 -Ed Evans

[1] http://www.merchantduvin.com/pages/3_pike_brewing/nellies.html
[2] http://www.wyeastlab.com/beprlist.htm


- ---------------------------------------------
This message was sent by First Step Internet.
           http://www.fsr.net/




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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:54:16 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_BURLEY at CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Fw: Stockmarket Advice, virutally speechless, Northwest Trip

Brewsters:

Here's a new perspective:

If you bought $1000.00 worth of Nortel stock one year ago, it would now  be
worth $49.00. If you bought $1000.00 worth of Budweiser (the beer, not the
stock)
one year ago, drank all the beer then traded in the cans at a redemption
center for the nickel deposit, you would have $107.00.

Given the current conditions of the stock market, my advice, based on this
example, is to buy beer (but not Budweiser) drink heavily and recycle.
- -----------------
I guess I was in too big of a hurry to fire up my new box of computer toys
when I got back from the NW. I have been virtually speechless since I did a
really stoopid thing on the advice of a computer professional while preparing
to transfer data to my new computer ( I'm using it now)  from my old one. But
it is still my fault since I felt uncomfortable doing it and should have
listened to that still small voice in the back of my skull. Now I need some
help from you computer adepts out there.

I formatted the virtual E drive on my partitioned HD. I lost C drive with all
my stuff and Win95 OS on it. Tape backup was not up to date. D has a full copy
of the C drive but out of date. D,E and F still appear to be intact.  I know,
I know! Trying to boot Win95 from D got me a "Himem.sys missing" error.
Anyone have any suggestions for some good recovery software or other
suggestions please e-mail privately.
- ----------------------------------
On the positive side, I got back from a visit to Victoria, BC and Seattle, WA
and I can definitely say that the myth of the cold and rainy NW US is pure BS,
unless I used up their annual quota of nice weather while I was there. I mean
7 days and nothing but warm and beautiful weather - can you believe it? Both
Victoria and Seattle were beautiful

 SWMBO and I had a great time ( she threatened to stay shopping in Victoria
and send me off to Seattle) .  Best of all I can confirm that homebrewers are
the best and friendliest people in the world. I met and had dinner and brews
with Bill Riel, his SWMBO and friends in Victoria,BC  and Charles Rich in
Seattle where we had a hoppy ESB that would fool a Brit, along with a few
other good pints..  What a wonderful time in both places. Nice people!  Thanks
to both for your excellent hospitality.  I will give my comments on the
various beers I drank and micros I toured at a later date. I'm busy trying to
recover my data and comments I put together.

Keep on brewin'

Dave Burley





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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:57:11 -0500
From: gremake at gsb.uchicago.edu
Subject: Hops and head

Hello all,

A while back, Jeff Renner commented on the improved foam stand
 he got after adding some hops extract to one of his brews.  This 
was the first I've heard about this effect, but when I reviewed my 
own recipe notes, there was a definite correlation between late 
hop additions and foam stand.  In fact, those recipes where I noted 
exceptional head retention were also those with the largest late 
additions.  Notably, the alts where I made only single bittering 
additions had weak head retention (although I guessed that was 
due to protein rests).  Have I just missed out on some common 
brewing knowledge?  Should hops really have that big an impact 
on head?  Does the hop variety matter, or the alpha acid rating?  
I've always thought that the grist and mashing schedule dictated 
foam stand, but if the style can handle it, I'm ready to bump up 
late additions substantially if it gets me that elusive rocky head.

Cheers,

Greg
Chicago, IL



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:12:08 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Brewing without lifting

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:37:20 -0400, walcin1 at comcast.net wrote:

>    I am in need of some advice on how to limit the lifting needed in
>brewing.  I have been diagnosed with a degenerative disk problem in my neck
>which will be fixed soon through surgery.  My wife (SWMBO) insists that I
>need to find a way to brew that won't require the lifting of 5 - 7 gallons
>any longer.  I have been given the green light on getting a brewing system.
>But I guess that my most important consideration is the lifting.  Can this
>this be accomplished?  I am an all grain brewer and really love brewing and
>am supported in this hobby (??) by my wife.  Private or public responses are
>welcome and encouraged.  Who else could I turn to in a time of need but you?

When I have a particularly daunting problem at work, the answer often
comes to me in my sleep.  This happens so often, in fact, that it no
longer surprises me.  Well, since turnabout is fair play, it pleases me
to note that an answer to Mark's question came to me while I was wide
awake, fighting a particularly daunting problem at work!

I certainly agree with the prior comments on this question.  Lifting
liquid is one of the major problems to overcome, and it would seem that
the best way to do this is to use a pump.  But there are other heavy
items that must be lifted and/or moved during a brewing cycle that
cannot be handled this way, such as equipment, grains (especially
spent), kegs of beer, and so on. 

A three tier brewing system is certainly a step in the right direction,
but only if a pump is included.  In an all-gravity system, you
generally have (from top to bottom) the liquor tank, mash/lauter tun,
and brew kettle.  This overall height required for such a system may
make it difficult to use if you are lift challenged.

In a system that uses a pump, however, it is better to have (again from
top to bottom) the mash/lauter tun, boil kettle, and liquor tank.  This
enables you to introduce cold water into the system at the lowest level
(no lift), heat it, and then pump it up to the mash/lauter tun for both
the dough-in and the sparge.  Gravity moves the runnings into the boil
kettle.  And since the kettle is not on the bottom tier, there is
plenty of height left to drain the wort into the fermenter, although
you can also pump it from the kettle, eliminating the need to lift the
fermenter after it is filled.

There is a nifty option on a brewing system from Beer, Beer, and More
Beer (http://www.morebeer.com) [Yabbadabbadoo] where the mash/lauter
tun is mounted on hinges, allowing you to tilt it over and dump the
spent grains onto a chute that feeds into your garbage can (or whatever
means you have for their disposal).  This surely seems to me to be
handy to avoid lifting the spent grains, although it does not address
the problem of lifting them into the mash tun in the first place.

Perhaps there are other interesting goodies available.  But no matter
how many gadgets you find, there are still going to be items that just
have to be lifted or moved in some way.  It seems, perhaps, that no
perfect solution is available.

This is where serendipity steps in.  Recently, I met some fairly
inexperienced, but very enthusiastic homebrewers.  We have gotten
together to brew on three different occasions.  The experience (to me,
at least) has been very satisfying in many ways.  But the point is,
perhaps because they have taken pity on the old man, but I have noted
that I have not done nearly so much heavy lifting recently.

Eureka!  Here is the perfect solution to the problem!  Locate some
younger, less experienced, but enthusiastic brewers in your area. 
[Read: strong backs, weak minds.  Gosh, I hope my guys are not reading
this!]  Offer to share your brewing knowledge and experience with them.
 You gain, because they get to do all the lifting.  They gain because
they learn all those brewing secrets you have acquired.  We all gain
because the homebrewing community becomes closer together.

QED

Regards,

Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:37:17 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: ball lock kegs, plastic vs glass debate

I received one favorable response regarding RCB Fermentation Equipment for a 
keg source.  As expected, it was recommended to buy the o-ring kit too.  
Thanks.  I would like to support my local HB shops on this item but they 
have become ridiculously expensive in the Phoenix area.

While on ball locks, all that I own leak on the CO2 side with the tank 
attached.  I use quick disconnects.  I have tried replacing the outer 
o-rings, thicker ones, keg lube, none of these have worked.  The only thing 
left is replacing the poppets or go to a different type of connection.  
Anyone else had this problem and have suggestions?

Generally, I just gassed up with 15 psi, use 5 ft of 3/16" hose and draw 
down until it needs charged again.  A pain to keep up on during a party.

Got to join the fermenter debate.  In the early years of brewing, I used 
plastic fermenters and bleach as a sanitizer.  Why, because that was how I 
was taught.  In competitions, every judge commented that my beer had bleach 
residue in the flavor profile.  I believe it was described as chlorophenol.  
Rinsing with scalding water did not help and defeated the purpose of 
sanitizing.  Add infection was enough for me to switch to glass and 
iodophor.  Pouring out beer is a horrible thing.  For me, the switch made a 
notable difference. I'm sure great beer can be made in plastic, it just 
didn't work for me.

There are as many ways to brew as there are brewers.  Part of the fun.

Dave Holt
Forest Lakes, AZ




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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:43:09 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Champagne yeast taste effects?

Brewers,
    My BigBrew '02 old ale is still at 1.054 (started at 1.128).
Accordingly, I took a vial of champagne yeast that has been sitting in my
fridge for over two years and made a starter. Tonight, I decanted the
chilled supernatant off of the yeast. The starter wort was made from pale
DME and pressure canned. (No hops.)
    So, I tasted the "beer" from the starter. Obviously not hoppy... It had
a taste similar to a Belgian dubbel. Almost a bit sour. What taste effects
can I expect from champagne yeast? I will put some more starter wort on the
cake to build it up and await answers...
    IMSR?

Brew on!

Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry







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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:57:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ball lock kegs

Dave Holt asked:
>Has anyone bought ball lock kegs from RCB
>Fermentation Equipment?  Were you happy with the
>kegs?  Did the o-rings need replacing? 

Dave,
I have purchased 7 ball lock cornies from RCB over the
last year or so.  They have all held pressure and not
been really beat up looking, though you will have to
remove those pesky, sticky, "Propery of Pepsi" type
labels.  RCB occasionally has other great deals, as
well.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:12:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Acetobacter - Thanks for the help - one more question

In Digest #3996 Marc Hache asked:

>Kent Fletcher mentioned test strips for the iodophor
>solution, Kent can I get more detail ? I checked with
>my LHBS and they have never heard of them, do you
>?>have a brand or manufacturer name ?

Marc,
I should have mentioned that at the time.
Check out All QA Products at
http://www.allqa.com/aqa1227-8.htm
I have personally switched to StarSan, as it doesn't
stain tubing. But Iodophor is still a valuable
product, and with the test kit you can keep a standing
bucket of solution, just top it up to strength as
needed.  And with those plastic fermenters, I really
do think you need to fill them  and let them sit to be
sure of your sanitation, "swishing" is just not as
effective. Hope that helps.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal





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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:49:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: HERMS / pump - Immersion chiller as HERMS coil

In Digest #3966, Road Frog (any relation to the Bud
Mascots?) asked:

>Is anybody using their immersion chiller as their
>HERMS coil?

We (a few Maltose Falcons) recently did a club/demo
brew doing just that at out host LHBS. 50 foot 3/8" OD
immersion chiller. Worked very nicely, making aoubt 1
degree F/minute rise.

>Is a 1/15 hp pump to much?  I have a variable
>transformer to back it down a bit.  

I brought my home HERMS pump in for this brew.  This
little pump is only 1/50th hp, but can still move 6
gpm at 5 foot of head. To answer your question, while
1/15 hp is certainly more than you need (assuming
you're HLT isn't on the roof), it is also not too much
pump. But do yourself a favor: use a valve on the
output side of the pump instead of a variac. Lowering
supply votage to any A.C. motor is not a good
practice. Some brewers use solid state speed controls
(which actually pulse the full voltage on and off at
varying rates to adjust motor speed).  The prefered
method of controling throughput of centrifugal pumps,
ESPECIALLY fractional hp units, is to throttle the
output. This keeps the motor turning at full speed,
which is necessary to avoid overheating the motor
windings. Using a variac will work, but with horrible
efficiency and shortened equipment life.
Hope that helps.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:27:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Propane - Todd and Paul's questions

While it is always best to use hard pipe as much as
possible, the Uniform Plumbing Code allows a flexible
gas connector of up to 15 feet in length for outdoor
portable appliances only [UPC 1212ex.7] [2607.6].
Note that some state and local jurisdicitons have
shorter maximum lengths for some types of connectors. 
Generally, a shut-off valve is required at the
appliance, and the flexible connector cannot pass
through any building or appliance walls. Some
jurisdictions allow copper piping for gas, which is
very easy for a reasonably "handy" brewer to install.
If copper isn't legal in your area, use threaded black
iron pipe with proper sealant, and with all materials
perform bubble tests at all joints. While the SOV is
required at the appliance, it's also a good idea to
have one at the supply end of the flex line for
additional safety.  Hope that helps.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:56:55 -0400
From: "Kevin Morgan" <vze29s6t at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: What's in your fridge (beer snacks)

Jim asks
cut>
What is your favorite beer snack and
what is the most unusual "snack" you have seen served at a bar?
cut>

In Thailand you can usually find fried grasshoppers in a bowl on the bar.
They aren't half bad as long as you don't eat the heads.
Kevin.....Brewing in South Jersey



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