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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Dump Sparging And Extract Efficiency ("Graham L Sanders")
  Unfamiliar with lager yeast? ("Parker Dutro")
  Skunky flavor ("Leppihalme, Miikkali")
  Chest Freezer burnout (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Re: Potato Beer ("Frank J. Russo")
  re: American Amber Ale (Paul Kensler)
  Re: retrograded starch (Marc Sedam)
  UK Brewers Group (Tony Barnsley)
  Fermentation restarted after racking to secondary! ("Grant Conrad")
  Carboy Size ("Dunn, Drew A.")
  Subject: RE: fermenting in an engine block (G C)
  Bubba, say it isn't so ("Mark Tumarkin")


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Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:48:56 +1000
From: "Graham L Sanders" <craftbrewer at bigpond.com>
Subject: Dump Sparging And Extract Efficiency

G'Day All

Well life here in Nth Qld continues is at a hectic pace (where did my
layback lifestyle go). I must stop getting immersed into Aus Craftbrewing.
Interest in craftbrewing in Australia is growing at an incredible pace.
Microbrewies are popping up everywhere, interest in my radio program
on beer is taking more of my time up. And throw on that our Australian
Craftbrewers website/discussion board and that more than fills my day.
But theres more. The Qld brewing competition is arround the corner that
I am organising here in the tropical north, and that takes up any free time
I thought I had. As I type another round of media events are planned.

Now it seems Phil has seen the light with dump sparging
>>>>>I did mention that I probably got the best extract ever using
dump sparging.<<<<<<

Now this is understandable. When Phil attended the Guru Internation
Brewing and Crab Tying Scool of Excellence, I do recall he actually left
the lecture on batch sparging to concentrate on his weak subject
"Immobilising an Angry Muddies with your Bare Feet" or
Keeping all Your Toes 101. So I am pleased that Phil has finnally
caught up with his education, and made up this class.

As Phil says
>One poor obsessive soul here in Oz claims he crushes his grain to
flour and gets 100% extract efficiency using rice hulls to avoid the
inevitable stuck mash.<<<<<

And while that has been true in the past, I may have to revoke Phils
Certificate of Excellance if he keeps making fundimental mistakes.
Its stuck sparge mate, not stuck mash. The only way you get a stuck
mash is if you add glue, but then I have heard rumours your into almost
anything that can be added to a mash, glue included.

But I am now at about 95-97% efficiency at the moment. I used to have 
a slow sparge, about an hour, and that gave me 100%. That was because 
it took my boiler that long to heat up. Since adding a heat scroud, my 
boiler now takes only 30 minutes, so my sparge has quickened to 
30 minutes, and my efficiency has dropped slightly.

Now am i worried about this. At first no, just add a touch more grain. 
But I hear Phil personally handles every piece of grain in Australia. 
The thought of Phil cooties in my beer really troubles me. The idea of 
actually adding more grain- ala more of Phils personal effects to my beer 
is frightening. The least he could do is wash his hands first.

Shout
Graham Sanders

oh - a check of the Guru Internationals records shows another subject 
Phil has missed. "Beer and Crabs - How They Go Together" or
Some Crabs Just Make You Itch 301. 

Hope you are well mate and good to see you have survived post-Ansett.

By the way are you enter my you beaut comp??????????????.







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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:32:14 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Unfamiliar with lager yeast?

I made a 1/2 gallon starter with uhopped extra light DME and Wyeast
Bohemian lager yeast. I used the same method as I always do: Let yeast
tube warm to room temp. for one day (a little longer, about 27 hours),
make starter to approx. same gravity as beer will be (1.058) boil for
about 20 minutes until I have half gallon, cool in an ice bath, pitch
yeast and aerate. I have been using pure O2 lately, with no problems
until now. It's been about 9 hours since I pitched, with absolutely no
activity from the airlock. Being that I am unfamiliar with lager yeast
behavior in general, I don't know what to expect. Does it help to keep
the starter wort at lagering temp? Are lager yeasts slower, even at room
temp? Could I have put too much O2 into the wort (ten seconds of light
bubbles, three times over an eight hour period, twice before bed, once
right when I got up this morning) what's the word, fellers? 
Thanks again, 
Parker 


"Excuse me doctor, but I think I know a little something about
medicine!"
 -Homer Simpson






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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:28:38 +0300
From: "Leppihalme, Miikkali" <leppihalme at quartal.com>
Subject: Skunky flavor


For your information:
Ghent University in Belgium has published a paper named
"Mechanism for Formation of the Lightstruck Flavor in Beer". You
can find it on the internet at
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~ddkeukel/chemeuro74553.pdf

Miikkali


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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:17:08 -0400 
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: Chest Freezer burnout

All the recent posts about chest freezers dropping dead prompts me to post
about another method of fermentation temperature control.

It seems that the problem these folks have is due to the higher running
temperatures of a freezer when used on a thermostat. To avoid this, I
decided to use my thermostat to control a fan pulling freezing air from the
freezer into an insulated box. This allows the freezer (I actually use a
side by side) to run at normal temperatures, yet gives me temperature
control from 70F down to slightly below 30F.

I built a 4' x 4' x 18" insulated box, connected it to the freezer with both
supply & return ducts, and control a duct fan with my Johnson controller.
I've been using it for several years, and couldn't be more happy about it. I
will soon add my 12.2 gallon conical into the loop, using a second insulated
box for it.

Interested parties can see it at
http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/gadgets/ferm_chamber.html. For a drawing
on my design for a 12.2 gallon conical chiller (in progress) using a chest
freezer (could be applied to a simple insulated box) see
http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/gadgets/ccf_chiller.html.


Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
Proud member of the American Homebrewers Association





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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:24:42 -0400
From: "Frank J. Russo" <FJR at NFGSales.com>
Subject: Re: Potato Beer


As I read over the many postings on Potato Beer I wonder why some brewers
were cooking the potato and then throwing the water out and adding the
potato to the mash.  The water will contain a significant quantity of
starch.  Just like cooking pasta.

Yes I make a 'Pasta Beer' but do not call it that because people begin to
look for pasta flavor in the beer.  I changed the name to 'Italian Wheat
Beer'.  I cook the pasta to remove as much starch as possible and add the
starch laden water to my mash.  This is how I would imagine using potatoes
in my brew as well.  I have not determined what the extraction value is.


Frank J. Russo
ATF Home Brew Club
New Bern NC



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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 06:28:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: American Amber Ale

Erik,
I'm not surprised that you are having a hard time
finding information on the American Amber Ale - its
particularly misunderstood and many beer geeks take
arms against the suggestion that it should be
considered a style at all.  Many brewpubs and micros
sell an "amber" ale that may actually be an APA, or a
UK-style bitter but too often its simply just a little
redder and just as bland as their "blonde" ale. 
"Amber" is often applied to beers as a product name to
distinguish them from the brewery's other offerings
(and they may be great beers) but they don't really
fit the bill for the "classic" American Amber Ale. 
Old Dominion Ale, Bell's Amber Ale and New Belgium's
Fat Tire come to mind - fantastic beers, definitely
amber colored ales, but not classic examples of the
American Amber Ale style.

A real American Amber Ale is truly malt-oriented.  In
contrast to an APA where hops are forefront and malt
provides a nice firm backbone, the AAA is just the
opposite - the complex malt flavor and aroma is.  Most
of the malt flavor generally comes from Munich or
Vienna malts, but crystal is sometimes used also.  The
style should be relatively dry, so large amounts of
crystal should be avoided (much of the color and malt
flavor comes from the Munich type malts). Roasted
flavors are inappropriate (black patent, black barley,
roasted barley, etc.) in this style.  Chocolate-type
malts are often used, but only in small amounts and
usually just for color.  The malt flavors should be
toasty, biscuity, perhaps a little caramel - again,
the grain bill should be mostly pale ale malt (or US
two row), Munich and/or Vienna, with wheat malt,
crystal malt or chocolate malt making up a much
smaller percentage if used.

Bitterness should be enough to balance the malt
flavors and sweetness, but shouldn't dominate.  Hop
flavor and aroma should be both low but noticeable,
and should ideally be from US varieties.

Yeast contribution should be negligible - any of the
standard US ale yeasts will do fine.  Basically you
just don't want a yeast that throws any strong flavors
that will compete with the malt and hops - just
ferment the wort and give a few fruity ale esters.  No
DMS, diacetyl, sulfur, or phenols.

Depending on where you live, you might be able to get
ahold of Full Sail Amber or Anderson Valley's Boont
Amber ale - both are fantastic when fresh and are, in
my opinion, perfect examples of the style.  Once
you've tasted one you'll be able to put your finger on
exactly how this style differs from a Pale Ale. 
Others might argue that Mendocino's Red Tail Ale is
the ultimate Amber Ale, but I think its a little too
light in color and malt flavor, and too hoppy and thus
blurs the line between amber ale and pale ale - but
when fresh its also a nice beer and shows the
progression from pale ales to the amber ale side of
the spectrum.

Brewing Techniques ran a nice article a few years ago
about Amber Ales and I recall that the article
referred to them as "West Coast Amber Ales" -
apparently this style originated out west (perhaps in
response to all the hoppy beers being made?) which
would explain why my three examples are all Pacific
coast breweries.  I'm sure there are some fine east
coast examples too, and I'm really sure that somebody
in Colorado is making a decent Amber - I just haven't
had the pleasure yet.


Good luck, I hope this helps -
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 10:46:18 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Re: retrograded starch

Jeff Renner asked me to comment on starch gelatinization a few weeks ago
and...well...I didn't.  In an effort to avoid some work, I did some
Google searching and came up with two great links:

http://www.orst.edu/food-resource/starch/temp.html -- Lists the
gelatinization temperature for every grain you'd ever want to use.  A
great list to determine when boiling adjuncts is appropriate.  A quick
highlight, but all temps in Celcius.  If you go to the chart you'll
notice that gelatinization temps vary with concentration.

Barley:Canadian  55.9 - 70.1
Barley                    54.5 - 68.3
Maize, normal       68.4-69.5
Potato                    61
Rice: native           61.5-80.0
Wheat flour: Red  56.2 - 75.8

The second link is on the same page:
http://www.orst.edu/food-resource/starch/gelatinization.html

This talks about what effects gelatinization.  It's a little geeky (Ray?
Do I see a good article w.r.t. cereal mashing?) but explains what's
happening during heating of starches.  Keep in mind that malting a starch
will dramatically effect these numbers (they'll be lower), so these are
for "raw" grains.

Cheers!
Marc



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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:36:57 +0100 
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: UK Brewers Group

Hi Collective

Having just returned from holiday, and caught up with my HBD reading,
someone asked how to subscribe to the UK Homebrewing Forum. Unfortunately
the website that the brewer was referring to is well out of date (At least
two hosts to my knowledge!), and from what I have been able to determine we
can no longer get to it to update it.

However The group is currently hosted at SmartGroups and you can subscribe
by using the website at

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/uk-homebrew

If you wish to subscribe by email then send a blank email to 

mailto:uk-homebrew-subscribe at smartgroups.com 

You will then get a response from the mailbot asking you to confirm that you
want to subscribe. Reply to that and you will start to receive the
individual posts as they are sent to the group. You will be able to post but
the first few posts are moderated (We got caught by a couple of spammers
early on) so your replies may take a few hours to appear. If you wish to
receive a digest version then send a blank email to

mailto:uk-homebrew-setdigest at smartgroups.com 

I hope that this helps

- --
Wassail!
The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK
Rennerian Coordinates [3605.3 , 47.5 ] No longer wandering the brewing void

UK HOMEBREW - A Forum on Home Brewing in the UK
              Managed by home brewers for home brewers

Email Disclaimer is:
http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/democracy/corpdocs/EmailDisclaimer.htm

This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange
as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy.


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Date: Tue,  6 Aug 2002 12:28:49 -0400
From: "Grant Conrad" <beer at aimofconrad.com>
Subject: Fermentation restarted after racking to secondary!

Hi all - The subject says it all.. after letting my golden ale sit in the
primary for about 8 days, I racked it into the secondary.  About 6 hours
later, fermentation restarted.  It's bubbling a lot (I think.. I'm using a
3-piece airlock and it's about 1 bubble every 3 secs).  I racked it 3 days
ago, and it's still fermenting like a champ.  It has about an inch of bubbles
and yeast at the top and the beer looks very cloudy.  
   The weird part is that it fermented like a champ in the primary for the
first couple days, then the bubbling died off completely.  The beer appeared
very cloudy in the primary and I noticed a lot of sediment pouring in during
racking.  My beer's been sitting in a closet with a relative temp of about
75-80 degrees (a little hot, but it's summer here in philly)
  My question is this -- is my beer infected?  Why would it start
re-fermenting?

Thanks in advance,
Grant




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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:25:49 -0400 
From: "Dunn, Drew A." <Drew.Dunn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Carboy Size

I am interesting in brewing batches smaller then the "standard" 5 gallon
size.  I had considered using the same carboy I currently use for my 5
gallon batches but a friend was concerned about headspace.  He felt that if
I put 2.5 gallons into a 6.5 gallon carboy there might not be enough CO2
produced to fill the head space and protect the brew.  I found a 2.8 gallon
carboy on Beer, Beer & More Beer but was wondering if 3/10th of a gallon
would be enough headspace for a 2.5 gallon batch.  Does anyone have any
opinions on this?

Thank you, 
Drew A. Dunn


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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:06:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: G C <gsd4lyf at yahoo.com>
Subject: Subject: RE: fermenting in an engine block  

I just read this and felt compelled to respond to
prevent any new brewers from attempting this 
fermentation method. This method should be avoided
unless your goal is to produce a very aSStringent
beer.
>From John Palmer's How to Brew, "Astringency differs
from bitterness by having a puckering quality, like
sucking on a tea bag."  So you see, puckering and
asstringency go hand-in-hand, or is that...never mind.


Guy in CA 


<<You guys are so fortunate to have such convenient
fermentation vessels. I wont tell you where I ferment,
but I will tell you that I walk funny during high
krausen and I can't sit up straight for a couple
weeks. 

"Excuse me doctor, but I think I know a little
something about
medicine!"
 -Homer Simpson>>




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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 21:30:42 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Bubba, say it isn't so

Oh, Bubba, say it isn't so.....
Latest reports from  the Texas political scene contain some disturbing news
about Clay Henry, the beer drinking mayor of Lajitas, Texas......

Anyhow, check it out for yourself.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/05/national/05GOAT.html

Jim Bermingham's staying quiet on this one, but I'll bet it's got Bubba and
the boys talking in the bars and back-rooms of Milsap.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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