HOMEBREW Digest #4011 Fri 09 August 2002

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  Liquid Level Control (Tony Barnsley)
  deactivation of enzymes/mashing and attenuation ("Steve Alexander")
  deactivation of enzymes/mashing and attenuation pt2 ("Steve Alexander")
  bitter taste/aftertaste ("Jeffrey McPike")
  Norrish Cleavages ("Dave Burley")
  Pretzel Results (Rick)
  Re: Rest at 122 deg F for Sierra Nevada Pale Ale Clone ("Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D")
  Acid in beer ("Dan Listermann")
  RE:  Rest at 122 deg F for Sierra Nevada Pale Ale Clone (Bill Tobler)
  CACA results (Rama Roberts)
  Hot Peppers. (Wesner Reing)
  All grain logistics question (Victor.E.Franklin)
  Selling recipes (Ken Pendergrass)
  Re: Goose Island Clone (Spencer W Thomas)
  SNPA Clone Recipe ("Eric Ahrendt")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:38:05 +0100 From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk> Subject: Liquid Level Control Hi all I know that there is someone out there that can help me sort this one out. I run off my sweet wort from the mash tun into an under back (Converted Corny) and then pump it to the boiler. What I would like to be able to do is to switch the speed of the pump to different levels depending on the liquid level in the underback. The pump speed is currently controlled by a power regulator and depending on the setting of the variable resistor depends on the pumps speed. What I would like to do, is to have two float switches at different heights in the under back. I think that there are three scenarios IMBW With both Floats open I would like the pump to run at a speed that enables the underback to continue filling (R1) With the Lower Float Closed the Pump runs faster, probably just about keeping up with the run off from the mash tun or just a bit less (R2) With Both floats Closed the pump runs much faster and empties the underback UNTIL the Lower Float Opens (R3) Can anyone come up with a discrete logic circuit to operate relays (opto isolators) that switch the three resistors into the motor speed controller circuit. I don't really want to get into the realm of PIC controllers. Also anyone know of any good (cheap or free) Circuit and PCB design software Probably best to contact me offline as its not 'strictly' beer related - -- Wassail! The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361) Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK Rennerian Coordinates (3605.3,47.5) No Longer Lost In The Brewing Void! Email Disclaimer is: http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/democracy/corpdocs/EmailDisclaimer.htm This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 07:25:22 -0400 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: deactivation of enzymes/mashing and attenuation Hans Aikema asks great questions like ... >Does anybody know how fast enzymes deactivate? In a 65C(149F) mash with a 2.5:1 water:grist ratio (1.25qt/lb) the half-life of beta-amylase(BA) is about 16 minutes, alpha-amylase(AA) half-life is about 42.5 minutes. At 85C(185F) the numbers are roughly 5.5 minutes for BA and 12 minutes for AA. See JIB v97,pp85-92 for details - great paper by Robert Muller of BRI. >When I want to use the beta-amylase at say 1 hour >63 degr.C (145 F) and not so much alfa amylase >and I heat up from 63 degr.C (145 F) to 85 degr. >C (185 F) in 5 min., does that mean I used mainly >beta amylase and both are ineffective at the time the >mash reached 85 degr. C (185 F) ? Or is alfa >amylase than stil working during sparging? This question is based on misunderstandings that are commonly repeated in the HB literature. AA and BA are not entirely competitive. The available sites for BA activity increase as AA acts tho' AA can eventually dice-up the starch into sizes that the BA is slow to digest. Mashing at 63C does not prevent AA from acting. The ratios of instantaneous AA activity to BA activity are nearly independent of temperature. The value of a low temp (60C-67C) mash rest is that it allows a lot of BA activity to occur before denaturing. There is sufficient AA to completely convert all the starch in a single infusion mash at even 85C/185F - far above typical "mash-out" temps of 78C/172F. Conventional pale malts has more than 20 times the potential AA activity as BA activity. The amount of AA in 1kg of pale malt can convert about 88kg (!!!) of starch in a 60':65C mash. Step mashing is about permitting a controlled amount of BA activity to achieve the desired attenuation rate. Separate protein degradation steps are usually unnecessary with modern malts - with *extremely* rare exceptions. Let's use a variation of Hans' mash as an example (60minute:63C, and boost to 85C for a 20 minute very hot mash-out). During the 60':63C mash there is enough potential AA activity to convert 83kg of starch for every 1kg of pale malt !! In the first hour there is enough potential BA activity to produce 4kg of maltose per 1kg malt. Obviously there isn't enough starch available to use all this potential. After the hour about 46% of the AA is still available and only 17% of the BA. During the next mash phase 20':85C there is about 32% additional potential AA activity (enough to convert 26kg of starch per 1kg of pale malt) and 11% additional BA activity (enough to produce 0.4kg of maltose per kg of pale malt). At the end of this very hot mashout 15% of the original AA survives and only 1.4% of the BA. I give this example not because the specific numbers are of any value (even minor changes in malt, pH, mash thickness etc will throw the numbers off ) but because it's important to observe the magnitudes of the activities under various circumstances. The figures above are based on calculations that account for the temperature dependent denaturation rates and activity rates for the enzymes. This model does not include separate terms for product inhibition (for example high maltose concentration slows BA activity) or changes in water availability. Note that - / Pale malt contains a vast excess of potential enzyme activity compared to the available starch. / Malt contains far more potential AA activity than BA activity. / Any saccharification rest will see the destruction of most of the BA within 1hr (about 75% loss at 60':60C, more at higher temps), but substantial AA activity can continue through mash-out. / The additional enzyme activity during the mash-out period is similar to the same period at a lower temp, tho' losses of enzymes are greater. / The ratio of AA activity to BA activity during the mash is constantly shifting in favor of AA, because BA denatures so quickly. /The end of mash-out effectively destroys the BA in the mash but mashout does not rapidly destroy the vast amounts of AA - that takes considerable time even at 85C. Contrary to popular belief, the potential enzyme activity during the (very hot 85C in this case) mashout period is considerable. - --- It should be apparent that even given great losses in potential activity from sub-optimal conditions that the limiting factor in saccharification is the availability of starch in the mash. A topic never addressed in the HB lit. From various tables .... a 65C mash will release about 90% of the final malt extract in 20 minutes ... at 60C it's 90% in 50 minutes (much slower) and at 50C only 50% is in solution after 2+ hours. The reasons for the slow release are NOT the degree of malt modification, but the gelatinization temperature(GT). The GT of malt is higher (64-67C) than raw barley (60-62C) because of the kilning. It used to be the case that English PA malt was called 'high kilned' malt because there was a final high temp toasting phase which decreased the amounts of BA enzyme considerably and also *presumably* caused a yet higher GT. I read in Kunze tho' that current European practice is to kiln-off malt at 100-105C in order to reduce SMM levels and so avoid the costly long boils that used to be needed to reduce DMS/DMSO levels. Perhaps little difference in the GT. Anyhow after any reasonable saccharification rest the activity of BA will be greatly decreased and the starch release rate during that period will depend significantly on the mash temperature. For a highly attenuative beer it's probably better to get most of the starch into solution early with a 65C mash-in rather than slowly let the starch out with a 60C mash-in. My experience is that the Fix (60C-70C-mashout) mash schedule can produce beers with 70-74% attenuation despite the slow starch release. For higher attenuation (as in pale-ales) look to a different schedule with a hotter saccharification step. During the boost to mashout there is another release of starch from the grist yielding 3-10% of total extract. The enzymes active during mashout will certainly convert the starch, but with the BA levels so low this final puff of starch may yield more dextrins than previously released starch. For a more attenuative wort we'd like this final starch release to be small - which calls for a warmer saccharification step (like 65C) and perhaps a slow climb to mashout temps. My comments - after 1hr at 63C your mash should have completed degrading all the starch available. The mash-out boost will release a little more and the fermentability of the carbohydrate from that last little gasp is probably medium-low. Just for reference - in Muller's paper his results give the following fermentability vs mash temperature for a mash with a 2.5:1 water:grist ratio 70C 70% 75C 52% 80C 28% 85C 22% Obviously very dextrinous beer styles require saccharification temps above 70C/158F. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 07:34:00 -0400 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: deactivation of enzymes/mashing and attenuation pt2 I know Kevin Crouch has been providing some interesting speculation on Paul Shick's mash .... Kevin Crouch ... >The notion that "full starch conversion >can be achieved in 15 minutes" appears to be saturated >in a good deal of commercial brewing rhetoric based >on the principles of chemistry that we've discussed in >recent posts, and the experiences of this community. >This cannot pertain to the total % of available starch >in the mash. It's saturated in reality and not rhetoric Kevin. EBC, IoB and ASBC each have a 'lab' mash regimes which are rather hot and very thin and these regularly produce high levels of extraction and complete conversion *of starch* in relatively short period of time, 5-15 minutes. In our cooler thicker mashes the conversion is slower and the release of starch is slower as well - but not so slow. In an all malt grist with a high percentage of pils or pale-ale type malt you should get a clean iodine test in under 20-25 minutes at saccharification temps. A clean iodine test tho' only demonstrated that the amylose segments are below length .. ?16?.. or so - too short to trap iodine pairs in the amylose helix. The stuff is still often too dextrinous to make good beer. >In addition, malt modification really >shouldn't be a major factor here. Probably not. Malt extract levels (using hot thin lab mashes) are nearly constant from about halfway thru malt germination period. see the previous post re starch release and gelatinization temp. [...] > I am under the impression that >the main purpose of the mash-out is to de-activate any >viable enzymes so that the integrity of the malt >constitution will be maintained after the sparge, >which in most instances is going to be longer than the >combined rest times. That mashout inactivates all enzymes is a common and incorrect belief. Complete conversion of all starch can be accomplished with a single infusion at 85C - well above conventional mash-out temps ! Mashout spells the end for beta-amylase tho' BA can be fairly active during a 77C-78C mash-out. AA will continue to act to some extent after mashout and into the sparge. fwiw, -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 07:24:54 -0500 From: "Jeffrey McPike" <n9cqs at insightbb.com> Subject: bitter taste/aftertaste Greetings. I have brewed for several years, and have recently had three batches that had a strong bitterness to them. It isn't exactly a hop bitterness, and it is worse in the aftertaste than while drinking. I thought I was getting an infection. I changed everything. I sanitize with Iodopher. I have little brushes to clean out tubes. I boil all water. I use an imersion wort chiller. I have purchased a new plastic primary, as there were scratches in my old one. I still have the troubles. I am boiling in an aluminum brewpot that came with my burner as a turkey fryer. I don't do anything it but boil water and boil wort. I use a Stainless Steel brew paddle to stir. Immersion chiller is copper. Could my beer be picking up a taste from the aluminum? Do I need to scrub the aluminum clean between brewings? (I wash the aluminum pot, but I don't use anything like steel wool and actually work to get to a bright shine inside) Could the aluminum be reacting with the copper chiller? Maybe I just need to give in a buy a stainless steel brew pot, which I'm willing to do, but I want to know before I spend the money if it's going to solve my problem or not. In other words, a SS brewpot would be desireable, but I want this problem of bitterness solved FIRST, or have the new pot solve it. Thanks in advance. Jeff - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 8/2/2002 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:50:09 -0400 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_BURLEY at CHARTER.NET> Subject: Norrish Cleavages Brewsters: Leppihalme Miikkali provided a reference for a skuky beer mechanism that recalled some of my early academic work.. Having done my Ph.D. in Photochemistry and research in electron spin resonance spectroscopy on organics as an undergraduate only a couple of years after it was first demonstrated at Univ. of Chicago, I found it interesting that these esoteric techniques are at last being used for practical purposes! But Malcomb Forbes as the lead researcher? Oh, yeah that Malcomb Forbes of UNC. I also have done my share of study of Norrish Type I and II cleavages, but we'll leave that for another time. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:32:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com> Subject: Pretzel Results I finally baked a batch of Jeff Renner's pretzels last night, and they were so damn good I had to report it immediately to the HBD. They were a huge hit with everyone who had them. I've tried making them before using baking soda with disappointing results. I bought some purified lye and used that this time, and all I can say is that they were fantastic. The lye really does make the difference. One note for those making the dough in a bread machine like I did: you may want to use a bit more water. I started with 1 1/8 cups and had to add at least another 1/4 to 1/3 cup. Best thing to do is monitor your bread machine and add water as needed. Thanks Jeff. Rick Seibt Mentor, OH Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:33:14 -0400 From: "Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D" <lupolds at jhmi.edu> Subject: Re: Rest at 122 deg F for Sierra Nevada Pale Ale Clone William Menzl writes about his first all grain recipe: This is the exact same recipe (Perle bitter and Cascade flavor?) as my first mash! First, let me say that this turned out to be a great beer. It blew away all of my previous extract brews (over 10 years worth). All grain is labor intensive, but so far it's worth the effort. I can't tell you whether or not to do the protein rest, but I can tell you the problems I ran into brewing this recipe as my first mash. I followed Papazian's schedule for 1 quart of water per pound, with an expected drop in temperature of 16-18 F, to get near 122 F. It ended closer to 115 F, so I added more hot water to get to 122. After the protein rest, I followed the recommended water addition to get to 150. In the end, I added almost double the recommended amount to only get to 142-145. In short, the lesson is that these recommended temperatures are guidelines and can vary widely with mash systems, temperature, insulation, grain density, etc., etc. Even with all of these troubles (a water:grain ratio way over the 'recommended' limits, a lower temp mash, rain pouring into my boiling brewpot) the beer turned out awesome. If you do decide to go for the protein rest on your first mash, be ready for some deviations from the expected. Some other pieces of advice I wish I had: Run your first gallon or so of run off back through the grain bed. They'll tell you to run until clear; however, in my experience, the first runnings are rarely crystal clear. Finally, lauter slowly, as running too fast will give you low extraction efficiency. I would guess the average lauter takes 40-60 minutes for 6 gallons? This will be a great beer! Shawn Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:41:41 -0400 From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> Subject: Acid in beer Steve Alexander discusses acetic acid in beer and notes that O2 is required for its formation. I get a lot of customers who complain that their beer tastes like "vinegar." Usually they are tasting acid and vinegar is the descriptor that they are most familiar with. Almost always their real problem is lactic acid, not acidic acid because O2 should be hard to come by in brewing equipment. Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:12:06 -0500 From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> Subject: RE: Rest at 122 deg F for Sierra Nevada Pale Ale Clone In HBD #4010 William Menzl asks, "Is this rest at 122 deg F really needed or should I just do a 90 minute mash at 150 deg F? With the malt bill you're using, I would skip the protean rest at 122 and do the single infusion at 150. I have read (I think on this digest) that a longish rest in the 122 range can effect head retention. If you were using a lot of wheat, you might want to do a protean rest. To find you Rennerian Coordinates, try this Calculator. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/levetzowbt/homebrew/rennerian.html Bill Tobler Lake Jackson, TX (1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:38:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com> Subject: CACA results I brewed a CACA about a month ago, and thought I'd share the results. The recipe I used was more or less what Jeff Renner suggested here a couple months back, but using Maris Otter as the base, and 24 oz of corn meal. The yeast used was Windsor, which I think was responsible for a fairly high FG of about 1.018 (used Jeff's mash schedule, a large yeast starter, and well aerated wort). Having never lagered, I don't have a dedicated fridge. After about 2 weeks in the secondary for a rest, I thought I'd drop it in my food fridge at 40F, where it stayed for about 3 more weeks. Not sure what affect this may have had, as this was my first CACA. If I were going to do it again, I think I would keep the grain bill and hops just as Jeff suggests, but change something to lower the FG (or perhaps raise the alcohol content instead) to match its fairly full body, which doesn't seem to fit. Or maybe use a domestic 2 or 6 row instead of Maris Otter? In all, a very tasty beer. - --rama roberts san francisco bay area Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:31:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Wesner Reing <wreing at lynx.dac.neu.edu> Subject: Hot Peppers. I'm attempting the Dry Heat Chili Ale form the July-Aug Brew Your Own. And I have a question about putting peppers in the bottle. Since The majority of the capsaicin is contained in the seeds, should I put a small slit in the peppers first to make sure that my beer is as hot as possible or will the "heat" leach out through the pepper anyway? Has anyone brewed a beer like this? Thanks for your help. Wes Brookline, MA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:33:36 -0700 From: Victor.E.Franklin at bankofamerica.com Subject: All grain logistics question Hello! I am going to be switching over to all-grain soon. I know the process takes more time so I wanted to brew larger batches. The thought being I will be spending the same amount of time on the same volume of beer if I brew a larger batch (i.e. instead of brewing 3 extract 5 gal batches, brew 1 large all-grain). However, I am not sure how large is too large. How much can one reasonably brew at one time? I already have a good propane cooker. But I haven't purchased any of the additional equipment yet and wanted to make sure I got the right stuff. If I wanted to brew a 20 gallon batch for example, does the logistics of handling that much grain and water etc. make it an exercise in futility? Any experienced all-grainers have equipment advice for the new guy? What you would do different a second time around, for example? Are there places that sell large pots and such for just such an at home set-up? Also, If you know of a good on-line supply company would send me the link or number? (personal email is fine too) If anyone is interested in the list let me know and I will shoot you a copy. Thank you Victor Franklin victor.e.franklin at bankofamerica.com "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:48:12 -0400 From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net> Subject: Selling recipes Colby, I have bought thousands or at least a few hundred recipes in that I continue to by brewing recipe books and magazines. If one divides the price of a book by the number of recipes $1.25 is a ridiculously high price. I am very reticent to trust on line posted recipes. I fear anyone could post anything and probably before they try it. While I do know enough about styles to tell at a glance if a recipe is pointing in the right direction I just can't bring myself to use one unless posted by a person I recognize and then I might email the alleged author to see if he had posted it. Ken Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:54:10 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: Goose Island Clone >>>>> "Beer" == Beer Drinker <srm775 at yahoo.com> writes: Beer> Does any one have a recipe for a Goose Island clone? Well, first you raise a few million dollars. Then you get yourself a nice old building in Chicago. Rip out the insides and install a brewery. Build a good restaurant to go around it. Hire yourself some kick-*ss brewers. Or did you mean one of the MANY beers that Goose Island makes? =S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:55:20 -0400 From: "Eric Ahrendt" <Rock67 at PeoplePC.com> Subject: SNPA Clone Recipe William Menzel writes: "I am going to be brewing my first all grain batch this weekend and I am planning on using the recipe for cloning Sierra Nevada Pale Ale from Tess and Mark Szamatulski's "Clone Brews"." I don't think you need the rest you suggest. I brew a clone recipe by Chris Frey (near, but not quite 0,0 Rennerian) that is awesome and is single infusion. I think Chris developed this over 30 tries or so, and it was chosen for Big Brew 2000. Chris inclides some wheat for head retention. If you want this recipe let me know. Eric Ahrendt Fremont, OH Return to table of contents
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