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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  stuck ferment? (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: re: yeast and schmoo tips ("Pete Calinski")
  Club-only Comps ("H. Dowda")
  Re: flooding in Pilsen ("Pete Calinski")
  Fermentation and Temperature (John Scime)
  Yeast reproduction - important clarification (Alan Meeker)
  RE: Czech floods (Paul Shick)
  IPA, part 2 ("Adam Wead")
  Pilsen ("Bryan Gros")
  Re: Fermentation and Temperature (Demonick)
  Re: Hops & schedule for Fullers ESB or Redhook ESB clone (Paul Kalapathy)
  Exploding Stout (Chuck Doucette)
  Flooding in Pilsen ("Jim")
  ESB/Judging again (Bill Wible)
  Cellar Temps and Building Materials ("Charley Burns")
  Fullers or Redhook (Scott Perfect)
  Re: Fermentation and Temperature (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: Steves Treatise on Mashing (Kevin Crouch)
  Hop Socks and such... ("Todd")


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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:23:47 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <randyr at up.net>
Subject: stuck ferment?

Adam Wead wonders if his fermentation is stuck.

Adam, how do you know fermentation stopped completely? Oftentimes
fermentation will be faster in the first two or three days, then slow
somewhat. That doesn't mean it has stopped fermenting completely. If
you're judging by airlock activity, it could be you don't have a great
seal on the lid of your fermentor and now that fermentation is slower,
the lower volume of CO2 is just leaking through the lid. I wouldn't mess
around adding additional yeast now, only if you've let it sit 3 weeks or
so and it is still a long way from being done. The less mucking around
the better.
Wyeast 1056 is a very forgiving yeast and will produce a delicious beer
when fermented in the mid 70's as you are.





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:48:45 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: re: yeast and schmoo tips

Paul Kensler says:

"p.s.  - for anyone unfamiliar with "the schmoo", he
was a cartoon character from Li'l Abner that got his
own show in the 80's.  He was a round blobby sort of
creature, was white as a sheet, had a fuzzy moustache
and could change shapes."

I remember some other characteristics.  A schmoo was an ideal being.  It
would clean house for you, drive the kids where ever they needed to do,
could turn into money, would set the table, set the oven, then hop in and
cook itself and come out tasting like chicken.

Al Capp (I believe that was the author of the Li'l Abner cartoon strip) was
a political satirist.  His daily cartoon strip, in addition to being quite
funny, had political or social undertones.

Nobody picked up on the comment in my original post:

"And I thought schmoo was how you adjusted core memory."

At the risk of dating myself, in the days before computers had memory chips,
they had core memory.  It was a magnetic technology and required that
adjustment of the current through the cores.  The adjuster attached a
oscilloscope current probe to a special loop and looked at the waveform.
The current was adjusted until it looked like a schmoo; "round blobby sort
of creature".


What does that have to do with brewing?  Maybe we can adjust the shapes of
our schmoos.  Nah, why bother.


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 06:03:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Club-only Comps

Has anyone had their checks cashed from the IPA
competition?  Much longer and the bank will decline
ours because of age.

Anyone heard results from the Amer. Lager comp yet?


4th Annual Palmetto State Brewers'Open, 
September, 28 2002
http://www.sagecat.com/psb/psbo4.htm



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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:58:09 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: flooding in Pilsen

I don't know about Pilsen but last week while watching CNN I saw on the
scrolling text at the bottom of the screen words to the effect that, "The
brewery that was the original Budweiser has restarted brewing after the
flooding".  I never saw anything else about it.

I'm guessing that is the Budvar brewery.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 06:30:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Scime <jascime at yahoo.com>
Subject: Fermentation and Temperature

"Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com> is concerned about
the IPA he pitched with 1056 London ale yeast.  I have
an anecdotal response that Adam can take for what it
is worth.  

On a lovely Canadian winter day back in January (-7
celsius and sunny) Drew Avis helped me get started in
all-grain brewing by splitting a batch with me (read: 
splitting wort with me - he did most of the brewing!).
 I don't have my notes here, but it was a bitter made
with a variety of malts including 2 row, Baird pale,
but no crystal.  The recipe called for 35 IBU, and our
OG was 1.043.  I pitched my half onto a 2 day old
starter of 1056 London ale yeast at about 5:00 PM. 
Remember, this was the middle of winter in Canada, so
the temperature fluctuations in the house were quite
wide, roughly ranging from about 16C at night to about
23C during the day.  Anyway, I didn't notice any
action that evening before I went to bed and when I
got up next day the airlock was bubbling a little, but
not too vigorously.  By the next day - 36 hours after
pitching, it had more or less stopped.  I too was
pretty worried, but on Drew's advice I left it alone. 
When I racked to secondary 3 days later, the gravity
was about 1.012.  

Based on this, I concluded that in fact, the
fermentation had been mercurial, and that I had missed
the major action whilst sleeping at night.  FWIW, the
beer turned out just fine.  On comparing with his own
half of the batch, Drew, a BCJP judge, preferred my
batch fermented with the 1056 London ale yeast over
his fermented with Coopers dry, which seemed too clean
for style.  Or maybe he was just being kind to a
newbie . . .

Hope this sets your mind at ease.

John Scime
Members of Barleyment
Ottawa 
 



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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:02:02 -0400
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: Yeast reproduction - important clarification

Harold Dowda brought to my attention a glaring technical error in my post
yesterday on yeast reproduction. The term "Schmoo" refers to a character
from the comic Lil' Abner, not Pogo! Mea Culpa.

One other point of clarification. I referred to yeasts' multiplying by
binary fission, which is not strictly correct (not correct at all,
actually). While there are indeed fission yeast, our brewing helpers
Saccharomyces cerevisiae are not among them; reproducing instead by budding.

 -Alan Meeker
Lazy Eight Attobrewery Brewery
Baltimore, MD

"Where the possibilities are infinite"







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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:41:55 -0500
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: Czech floods


Hi all,

     Peter Ensminger asks about how Plsen fared in the
Czech floods.  This comes from the August 21 Prague
Post (online at www.praguepost.com.)

         South Bohemia was perhaps the most
         affected by the floods. Besides Cesky
         Krumlov, the worst-hit southern districts
         included Ceske Budejovice, Plzen (Pilsen),
         Pisek and Strakonice. 

         The worst-hit major city was the south
         Bohemian capital Ceske Budejovice, which
         has battled floods since the beginning of
         August. Eventually the entire city was
         submerged; the city center came under 1
         meter (3 feet) of water. The high water
         forced the suspension of beer production in
         the city, which is the home of the original
         Budweiser.  

I found several accounts of the flooding in Plzen,
but none mention the Urquell brewery.

                        Paul Shick
                        Thinking less harshly of the downpour
                        outside in Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:59:17 -0600
From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com>
Subject: IPA, part 2

Thanks for all the advice!

The consensus is that the fermentation is fine, and not stuck, and that the 
temperature is not too high.

Funny you should all say that because when I checked on it again yesterday, 
I noticed that the airlock was leaking.  Most of the water had leaked out, 
which I why I never saw any bubbles.  Well, after I put a new airlock in, lo 
and behold, there was some noticeable activity.  Not as much as before, but 
still some.

The gravity was around 23, and I stared with 52.  I'm aiming for 16, so I'll 
wait another week and see.

On another topic: What's been people's experience with secondary 
fermentations of 2 months or more?  The reason I ask is I had a batch of 
Marzen spoil on me when I tried to change the airlock.  The airlock broke 
and the water inside got into the beer and the next day there was mold.  Has 
anyone had problems with using a three-piece airlock on secondary for 3 
months (other than the water evaporating)?

happy brewing

adam




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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:33:35 -0400
From: "Bryan Gros"<bryangros at mindspring.com>
Subject: Pilsen

Peter A. Ensminger asked about the fate of the old Pilsner breweries in
Bohemia

The news reports I was reading pointed out that the "original Budweiser"
brewery (not going to try to spell it!) had stopped production at one point.
It was back to brewing about two days later. No mention of the Urquell brewery
though. I guess they figured Americans cared more about original Budweiser?

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros
bgros at aggienetwork.com
www.draughtboard.org


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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:12:50 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Fermentation and Temperature

From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com>

>I let the starter go for two days, and it was warm.  I could see it
>fermenting, but I never noticed a krausen or "head" in the starter jar.

Starters tend to ferment out quickly, particularly if warm.  The krauesen
can easily be missed.  The best indicator of starter activity is color.  
The starter starts a clear brown, and ends up looking like chocolate milk.

>The pitch temp was 74, and it was fermenting at 74-76.  It's a little on
>the high side, but does a few degrees really make that much of a
>difference?

Yes and no.  Wyeast 1056 is fairly stable in its flavor characteristics
across a wide temperature range, but 76F is pushing the upper edge of the
envelope.  One of the reasons to use 1056 is its clean, crisp finish.  At a
high fermentation temp you will lose some of that cleanliness and
crispness. 

Temperature characteristics vary with the strain.  I've noted that some
yeast seem to ferment pretty much the same over a range, but once outside
that range change quickly.  IIRC, Wyeast 1338 is one such.  It seems to
prefer upper 60s F, and once into the 70s F changes quickly. 

>Is what's called a "stuck" fermentation? And is it because it's too warm?

Au contraire, too warm may simply mean "fermented fast".  If your fermenter
is a glass carboy fitted with an airlock, how did the airlock behave?  
Ever note any swirling of gunk in the fermenter.  Again, if your fermenter
is a glass carboy fitted with an airlock, you can "rouse the yeast", by
swirling the green beer, by tipping the carboy and rocking it around.  
This will swirl up the trub and yeast from the bottom and put it back into
suspension for a while.  As long as the carboy is sealed and the airlock is
working there is no danger of oxidation since the carboy will be full of
CO2.  Watch for foaming, as you swirl.  Rousing the yeast may help squeeze
a last few points out of the fermentation.  I routinely rouse for 3 days,
morning and evening, at the end of my fermentation.  Then, I let it sit
undisturbed for a day or two before racking off to the secondary or
bottling.  

And, anti-intuitively, I believe that rousing the yeast encourages
flocculation and leads to a clearer brew.  

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:57:59 -0500
From: Paul Kalapathy <paulk at pixim.com>
Subject: Re: Hops & schedule for Fullers ESB or Redhook ESB clone

Oddly enough, my last batch was a Redhook ESB clone,
and I've got a Fuller's ESB clone in the fermenter today.
Both were made from recipes in "Clone Brews" by Mark Szamatulski.

I used the all-grain recipe and the Redhook was darned close to a 
perfect match with the draft version.  Everyone wants more of it, 
to the point where I've nearly emptied my 5 gal keg in under 
three weeks.  I think I'll have to brew that one again...

Being new to hbd, I don't know the protocol for passing along recipes
from books.  I can send along the info separately if you email me.
	-Paul Kalapathy


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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 11:18:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuck Doucette <cdoucette61 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Exploding Stout

I brewed a stout this past Sunday. It had such
potential! I used a starter, which was not really too
active come pitching time. The wort smelled wonderful,
and it had a beautiful black color. The O.G. was 1.070
(corrected for temp). By Monday morning it was showing
bubbles in the airlock. I happily carried the
fermenter down to the basement (where it is nice and
cool) and promptly left town for Nashua, NH on
business. When I returned last night, I decided to go
down and visit my beer, just to see how it was getting
along. I turned the corner to see dried droplets of
stout all over the floor surounding the fermenter, the
lid of the fermenter half way off ( unsealed, with
about a two inch gap half way around the bucket ) and
beer in the airlock. I was stunned. I have never had
such a strong ferment before. I never even considered
using a blow-off tube since I have never needed one
before. 

Do I need to sewer this batch? Is there any hope?
I snapped the lid back down tight and left it as it
was. I hate to dump it out, but am unsure. It wasn't
completely uncovered, but the lid was definately
separated from the bucket at least half way around. I
am willing to take a chance on it, but don't want to
waste my time if there is little chance of getting
good beer.

Thanks for any help anyone can give me.

Chuck Doucette
O'Fallon Illinois



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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:32:00 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Flooding in Pilsen

Peter Ensminger was inquiring about the flooding in the Prague area.  I don
t know about Pilsen but I did read an article about Budvar having to shut
down for a brief period due to the floods.  The article can be found at the
following link.  http://www.realbeer.com/news/articles/news-001754.html
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:52:43 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: ESB/Judging again

 - ESB is no longer considered a "style of beer".  It is a
  trademark of Fuller's.

FULLER'S WINS BATTLE OVER BRAND NAME RIGHTS

Fuller's, one of Britain's best-known regional brewers, has won a court
battle to protect its rights to its flagship brand, ESB. The case was
heard in the High Court in London. The dispute was between Fuller's and
Dave West, who trades as EastEnders in Calais, France. West has
exploited the gap between duty rates on beer in Britain and France by
selling large amounts of cheap French beer to Britain in recent years.
More recently, he has attempted to register the trademark for a lager
labeled ESP in Britain. Fullers claimed that ESP and ESB (short for
Extra Special Bitter) were too close for comfort, would confuse
consumers, and infringed Fuller's rights to the term ESB. The court
held that ESB was not a generic term and was distinctive of Fuller's.

http://www.protzonbeer.com/documents/27660-001662.html


 - No flames for Joe Gerteis.  I agree.  Make what you like, drink
  what you like.  If it doesn't quite fit into a recognized style
  or category, so what?

  Every beer is arguably unique.  Similar beers in similar styles
  share similar characteristics.  Certain methods of brewing result
  in certain characters, flavors, or aromas in the finished beers.
  The same flavor or aroma can be can considered a good characteristic
  of one style, but canbe regarded as problematic in a different
  style.

  The categories are generalized attempts to classify similar beers for
  judging purposes, that's all.  They don't catch every beer made.  It
  would take an unmanageable set of guidelines with a ton of variables
  to do that.  And the BJCP Style guidelines are meaningless to professional
  brewers.  Professional competitions are not handled by the BJCP (as far
  as I'm aware) and are judged by a different organization, according to a
  different set of guidelines, though many of the styles are similarly
  described.

  Take Yuengling Lager for example.  If this was entered in a
  BJCP competition as an American Lager, which it is, the first
  thing the judges would do would be to take off points because
  it's too dark.  If it were entered as 'American Dark Lager',
  it would lose points for not being dark enough.  My guess is
  it wouldn't get a great score in either category.

  Yet Yuengling is one of the most popular beers around here,
  and people give it the ultimate 'judging score' by taking money
  out of their pocket and buying it, which is the bottom line
  for a professional brewer.  Even though it doesn't fit into a
  predefined BJCP 'category' exactly.

Bill







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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:02:51 -0700
From: "Charley Burns" <CharleyBurns at SBCGlobal.Net>
Subject: Cellar Temps and Building Materials

Hey, long time no see, I've been away from the digest and brewing for
that matter for about a year.

My relatively new home has an excellent area for a beer/wine cellar. Its
off the basement surrounded by mostly dirt, under the part of the house
that we didn't have a cellar built under.

So I've cut a door into the area and have space for a room about 6' deep
and up to 14' long/wide and a normal 8' ceiling.

My plan at this point is to wood frame it with a brick floor and a
window type A/C unit, although I may need something that can get the
temperature a bit lower (like around 55F).

Thus the 2 questions.

1. Is 55F (great for ales) too cold for wine (red or white)?
2. What materials should I use for the interior walls of the cellar?

Charley (Fair Oaks, CA)



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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:58:45 -0700
From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: Fullers or Redhook

Gary wants to make an ESB:

"I'd like to give a go at an ESB in either of these
directions.

Would anyone have a hop schedule (type, ibu &
when to put them in the boil)?

Heck, if you have the whole recipe worked out &
wouldn't mind passing it along I'd be overjoyed."
- ----------------------------------

Dominick has you covered on grain and hops but
just to be sure you are aware - yeast strain is
important.  Wyeast 1968 is a good bet.


Scott Perfect

San Ramon, CA





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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:39:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fermentation and Temperature

Adam Wead is concerned about his fermentation:

>I have a 5 gal. batch of IPA that I just pitched on
>Monday, Aug. 19.  I pitched it from a 500ml starter
>of Wyeast 1056, which I had going for 2 days and had
>accumulated a good 1/8" of trub at the bottom, but no
>krausen.  

Assuming you made your starter with extract, the layer
on the bottom of the starter jar was most likely
yeast, not trub.

>It was going great until the Wendesday, when I
>noticed that the fermentation had stopped
>completely.  I haven't tested the gravity yet. Is
>what's called >a "stuck" fermentation? 

Well, you didn't mention your OG, but if it's not a
really big beer it may have finished.  You also didn't
mention equipment, are you judging activity solely by
airlock bubbles?  If the CO2 is escaping elsewhere
(lid on a bucket, stopper or cap on a carboy), you
won't see bubbles in the airlock.  Check your gravity,
it's probably done, more or less.  

>And is it because it's too warm?
>The pitch temp was 74, and it was fermenting at
74->76.  It's a little on the high side, but does a
few >degrees really make that much of a difference?

Elevated fermentation temps can lead to a rapid
ferment, higher levels of esters.  Not necessarily a
BAD thing, depending on the style and yeast strain.
You were probably a little warm for this particular
combination, the telling will be in the tasting.
Hope that helps, Cheers!

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Steves Treatise on Mashing 

I'm sorry I'm so late on this,  I've been in Mexico
and then trying to catch up around home.  I appreciate
the in depth education on mashing and enzymes, 
however I have a few questions.  

To my speculation that "The notion that "full starch
conversion
>can be achieved in 15 minutes" appears to be
saturated
>in a good deal of commercial brewing rhetoric 

Steve answers..

It's saturated in reality and not rhetoric Kevin.

EBC, IoB and ASBC each have a 'lab' mash regimes
which are rather hot and very thin and these regularly
produce high levels of extraction and complete
conversion *of starch* in relatively short period of
time,
5-15 minutes.   In our cooler thicker mashes the
conversion
is slower and the release of starch is slower as well
 - but
not so slow.    In an all malt grist with a high
percentage of
pils or pale-ale type malt you should get a clean
iodine test
in under 20-25 minutes at saccharification temps."

Sounds like some confusion over terminology, Isn't
this simply refering to starch in solution?  That I
believe,  but there is quite a bit of starch still in
granule form that slowly gelatinizes over the course
of the mashing process and can thus can be converted
as well.  Wouldn't this explain why one can continue
to extract more and more dextrins and sugars from
grains that are allowed to rest periodically during a
sparge?  For example,  when my extract levels start to
dip during runoff, (If I haven't mashed out) I'll let
my mash rest 15 minutes or so and the runoff has
jumped up dramatically in gravity.  

OK,  so this is based in reality...a reality in a lab.
but my homebrewery is a long way from this lab, as are
a majority of HBDers.  

Kevin Crouch



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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:28:20 -0700
From: "Todd" <bis9170 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Hop Socks and such...

Hi all:

What is the definitive rule-of-thumb, for using pellets in hop bags? I 
already know for a fact that there is an IBU extraction loss when using 
bags (vice just throwing the hops in loose), but have never been able to 
track down a semi-scientific calculation for estimating IBU's while 
using a hop bag (a.k.a. hop sock).

Ideas??

Cheers,

Todd Bissell

Eye Chart Brewing Company,
Imperial Beach, CA

(Sorry, I don't do Rennerian) //TSB



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---