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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  It's NOT India but.... (LYE) ("Steven Parfitt")
  re: yeast and schmoo tips (Paul Kensler)
  The Sex Lives of Yeast (Alan Meeker)
  Re: Hops & schedule for Fullers ESB or Redhook ESB clone? (Demonick)
  Beer judging again (joseph540)
  uncovered fermentations (Rama Roberts)
  Competition Announcement: 7th Dayton Beefest ("Gordon Strong")
  Oak chips & Schneider  Weisse (LJ Vitt)
  flooding in Pilsen (ensmingr)
  Fermenting in your brew pot ("Kenneth Peters")
  Fermentation and Temperature ("Adam Wead")


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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:42:23 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: It's NOT India but.... (LYE)

Aaron Gallaway requests help on pretzils:

>To anyone who has a minute and can help,

   > It's me again. Aaron in Japan. Although they call this country
>"developed and industrialized" for the average homebrewer it is the 
>equivalent of India though.

>As many know I am getting married in October and am doing everything 
>myself. It will be an Oktoberfest theme. My Oktoberfest lager is dong 
>WONDERFULLY thanks to Jeff and many others.
 .... snip to the meat...

>everything else has fallen into place...EXCEPT the LYE!!! Yes, I said >lye.
 ...snip...
>Aaron in the land of the rising yen

Go to a pharmacy and ask for NaOh, or try a local university chemestry 
department. You only need 100gr (my guess) or so, and might be able to buy 
it from a pharmacy or scrounge from a chem department if you explain what 
you are doing.

Rev. Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:57:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: yeast and schmoo tips

Interesting article on the study of yeast reproduction
 - but the article states that yeast come in two sexes
and reproduce by extending these "schmoo tips" towards
each other...  I have always read and heard that yeast
were non-sexual organisms that reproduced via
budding?...  Or are they talking about some other kind
of yeast, not brewers' strains?

On a related note, I seem to be growing my own schmoo
tip, protruding out the area centered around my navel.
 In fact, I've noticed this phenomenon happening to
several (most?) homebrewers.  Does this mean that we
are yeast?


Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD
Growing my schmoo, one homebrew at a time

p.s.  - for anyone unfamiliar with "the schmoo", he
was a cartoon character from Li'l Abner that got his
own show in the 80's.  He was a round blobby sort of
creature, was white as a sheet, had a fuzzy moustache
and could change shapes.




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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:13:39 -0400
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: The Sex Lives of Yeast

Mark asks about the amorous activities of yeast:

"When the yeast have plenty of food, such as in a nice sugary wort, they
forego their carnal pleasures to keep on eating. Is their mating for
reproduction, or just plain fun?What happens when the food is gone?
So they start thinking about getting alittle?  Start caving into their base
desires?  Rampant pheromones in mybeer?  Maybe we've misunderstood
this whole "autolyzation" effect?"


Sadly (for them), our brewing yeast strains almost never reproduce by having
sex, relying instead on simple binary fission to increase their numbers. In
the wild, S. cerevisiae is able to form three different cell types: two
sexually active haploid mating types (termed "alpha" and "a"), each of which
secretes a mating factor to which the other cell type is responsive. Part of
that response involves a change in the shape of the yeast cell into a
morphological variant termed a "schmoo" (a reference to an entity from Walt
Kelly's classic comic strip Pogo). Two of these cells of opposite mating
type then fuse together, forming the third diploid cell type which, if
nutrients become limiting, can generate four spores that are hardy and able
to lay low in a dormant state until conditions become more favorable. Once
food becomes available again, the spores will grow into the haploid mating
types and the whole process starts over again.

Our brewing yeast have all but lost the ability to reproduce sexually. This
is probably the result of all the years of yeast inbreeding we humans have
subjected them to during the selection of the brewing strains in current
usage. On the plus side, we have developed a set of stable strains that
perform well for us in the brewery. The downside of this, is that we have
pretty much eliminated our ability to easily mix and match traits between
different brewing strains simply by mating them with one another.

One wonders if the yeasts miss their wanton ways of old. Then again, perhaps
they are just as happy to be out of the singles scene.

 -Alan Meeker





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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:36:06 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Hops & schedule for Fullers ESB or Redhook ESB clone?

"First brewed in 1971, ESB is unrivalled in terms of its flavour and
balance. A powerful 5.5% a.b.v. in cask (5.9% a.b.v. in bottles and kegs),
it is brewed from Pale Ale and Crystal malts, and from Target, Challenger,
Northdown and Goldings hops. But don't ask us for the actual recipe -
that's a closely guarded secret.

"Andrew Jefford, the respected UK drinks critic, sums up ESB's flavour
thus: "an ample, grainy-nutty aroma and a broad, authoritative flavour,
with lashings of dry marmalade-like bitters", whilst 'Beer Supremo' Roger
Protz describes "an enormous attack of rich malt, tangy fruit and spicy
hops in the mouth, with a profound Goldings peppery note in the long finish
and hints of orange, lemon and gooseberry fruit".

Hmmmm.  "Authoritative"? "Lashings"?  "Enormous attack"?  "Gooseberry"?  
Good grief.  

English Target, Challenger and Northdown.  East Kent Goldings in the finish
& cask hopping.  Aim for 40 IBU.


Redhook ESB Vital Statistics

Grain Variety:
2-row Klages, Caramel 60

Hop Variety:
Willamette, Tettnang

Flavor Profile:
Rich, round, toasted malt with pleasant finishing sweetness

Color:
Copper (12.4)

Bitterness Units:
29.0 IBU

Alcohol % Weight:
4.45

Alcohol % Volume:
5.69

Original Gravity:
1.0555

Calories / 12 oz.:
178




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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: joseph540 at elvis.com
Subject: Beer judging again

Hi,

Sorry for this late addition, but I have been out of
the loop for a while.  There has been some comment on
repetition in beer judging.  Some think this is awful
and we should get rid of it; some think it is the
result of diversity of educational backgrounds in our
judges.  For the sake of argument, l'll add one other
that might be worth thinking about.  There is not only
diversity in the backgrounds of the judges -- more
importantly, there is diversity in the way that they
think about beer.  This seems amply demonstrated every
day on hbd!  Being simplistic, we could say that there
are two kinds of people in the world -- those that find
every beer to be unique and utterly irreducible (call
this, with tongue in cheek, the "Papazian" model) 
and there are those that think about and experience
beer in strictly categorical terms (call this the 
"Korzonas" model).  

Let me say that for me, my heart is with the first 
group, but my head is with the second.  Here's what
I mean, by way of an educational analogy.  I teach, and 
I read *a lot* of student papers -- like 50 at a time, 
sometimes more.  I truly do believe that each and every 
student is an individual person with an unique mind and 
unique experiences that matter.   But to judge each and 
every paper as an absolutely unique thing would be 
overwhelming. It would also be impossible to assign 
grades, since to grade the papers in a non-arbitrary
way means that I have to impose the same set of
standards on all of them.  

Most importantly, treating all
the papers as absolutely unique would deny an important
reality.  Those papers do in fact tend to have common 
kinds of problems.  Not every paper has the same set of
problems, and some papers are truly original and
surprising and wonderful.  But it quickly becomes clear
each time I grade that there are maybe 10 sorts of
common,
easily definable problems in the pool of papers, and
that most of the papers have symptoms of maybe one or
two of those.  What's a grader to do?  A bad grader
will *either* give the same comment on each paper, *or*
(equally bad) will give unique comments that don't give
an indication to the student that there is a common
problem in the paper.  My own decision has been to try
to use comments to recognize the uniqueness, but also
to rely on a couple of stock phrases to signal what
common problems are involved.

You see my point -- switch this to beer.  What's a
judge to do?  It would be great if the utter uniqueness
of our beers would be appreciated.  But the judges also
experience some common problems in the pool of beers;
it seems sort of silly to expect them to come up with
unique ways to characterize what are really common
problems.  It may actually help me to see that the
problems that the judge finds in my beer are actually
common problems rather than unique ones.  The
particular judge in question may have not been a good
judge, but I can't imagine that even the good judges
can manage to sustain unique language for each and
every brew they taste.  

[An aside to fill out the tongue in cheek analogy to
basic brewing books above: this "uniqueness is
everything" model is what makes Papazian's writing
about beer so fun to read, but it also makes it sort of
unhelpful at the end of the day.  Korzonas' writing is 
maddeningly, maddeningly structured, but his 
categorizing is also pretty useful.]

Okay -- I'm done.  Flame away!

Joe Gerteis
St. Paul, Minnesota

- -------------------------------------------------
Get your free  at Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com!
http://www.elvis.com



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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:58:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: uncovered fermentations

>So my advice is to not worry about looking inside.  After all, lots 
>of breweries ferment entirely uncovered.

True, Anchor Steam for example. But they (Anchor at least) go through steps to 
allow this- like filtering their air, and using pressurized ferm. rooms so when 
someone opens the door, it blows clean air out, and not suck "dirty" air in.

I would agree with Jeff though- looking inside the ferm tank is hardly a high 
danger exposure-wise, especially since it will be fermenting or finishing 
fermentation by then. The time you need to be super careful is the period 
between the kettle and the primary fermentation tank, when the wort is full of 
oxygen and sugars, has no protective layer of carbon dioxide, etc. 

- --rama




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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:50:53 -0400
From: "Gordon Strong" <strongg at voyager.net>
Subject: Competition Announcement: 7th Dayton Beefest

Entries are now being accepted for the 7th Dayton (Ohio) Beerfest.  The
competition will be held on September 14th; entries are due by September
7th.  All details are on our web site:
http://hbd.org/draft/daybeerfest.html.  Quick summary: Easy online entry, no
recipe, 2 bottles, $5, any type of bottles including draft packaging, enter
sub-categories as often as you want (only top-scoring is eligible for prize
in a single sub-category).  All 1999 BJCP styles accepted including mead and
cider.  Nice wooden plaques for category winners.

Gordon Strong
Dayton Regional Amateur Fermentation Technologists
strongg at earthlink.net



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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:11:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Oak chips & Schneider  Weisse





In HBD#4020, Matt asked about using oak chips:

>Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:52:36 -0400
>From: Matt Benzing <benzim at rpi.edu>
>Subject: Oak Chips
 
>I am experimenting with a braggot and I would like to add oak chips in 
>secondary to get that "barrel aged" character. Anyone have experience 
with 
>this? Should the chips be steamed? How much should I add? Can anyone 
>recommend a commercial beer aged in oak so I can get an idea of what 
I'm 
>aiming at?
 
I have used oak chips in wine, pyment and one barley wine.
What I think of "whiskey barrel aged", you will not get.
But you can get a oak effect that is wine.

I boil water and remove from the heat.  Put the oak chips in the hot
water and hold for 5 min.  I then strain out the chips and transfer 
into an empty carboy and rack the beverage onto them.

I put 1 oz of chips in and wait 2 weeks.  Tast it and decide if there
is enough oak.  If not add more.  I don't rack agin, just add to the
carboy.  I use a sanitized funnel and racking cain to push them 
through the funnel.  Wet chips tend to just stick to the funnel.
The reason for 2 weeks - with chips, all the flavor impact will 
occur in 2 weeks.  My source for that is the local home wine makers. 
Longer doesn't hurt anything.

I get chips from a wine/beer supply store.  There are different
levels of toasting.  I use untoasted, but medium toast is popular.

- ---------------------------
Schneider weisse:
I had it along the Rhine area.  It is better than we find it in the 
midwest.





=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:22:20 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: flooding in Pilsen

There's been much in the news lately about the flooding in
Europe, especially Prague and Dresden. Presumably, Pilsen
(birthplace of pilsner beer and home of Pilsner Urquell) has also
been flooded. In fact, since Pilsen lies near the confluence of
the Mze, Radbuza, Uhlava, and Uslava Rivers, I might expect
flooding there to be at least as bad as in Prague. Unfortunately,
not much news is available over here on Pilsen.

The Pilsner Urquell brewery has extensive sandstone caverns that
were used for lagering during the birth of Pilsner beer. What
happened to them? Does anyone out there have information?

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
Homebrewer, http://hbd.org/ensmingr




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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:08:51 -0500
From: "Kenneth Peters" <kpeters6 at cox.net>
Subject: Fermenting in your brew pot

In reference to and Jeff Renner's reply to John Sarette about fermenting in
their brew kettle. I have a question for Jeff -when you say you ferment ales
in a ten gallon stock pot, is this the same kettle that you boiled it in? Do
you boil, cool, aerate and ferment without moving the liquor? Do you remove
the trub from the kettle? If so, when? Sounds like a labor saver to me and as
clumsy as I am, the fewer wort transfers the better.

Kenneth Peters

somewhere south of Jeff






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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:14:05 -0600
From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fermentation and Temperature

Dear HDB:

I have a 5 gal. batch of IPA that I just pitched on Monday, Aug. 19.  I 
pitched it from a 500ml starter of Wyeast 1056, which I had going for 2 days 
and had accumulated a good 1/8" of trub at the bottom, but no krausen.  It 
was going great until the Wendesday, when I noticed that the fermentation 
had stopped completely.  I haven't tested the gravity yet.

Is what's called a "stuck" fermentation? And is it because it's too warm?

The pitch temp was 74, and it was fermenting at 74-76.  It's a little on the 
high side, but does a few degrees really make that much of a difference?

Could it be related to the starter?  I let the starter go for two days, and 
it was warm.  I could see it fermenting, but I never noticed a krausen or 
"head" in the starter jar.

Should I try re-pitching from another starter if the FG isn't low enough?

thanks!

adam




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