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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Charley's wines ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Decoction Mashing ("Steve Alexander")
  Starch conversion ... ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: FWH impressions/hops flavor (Marc Sedam)
  Brewing in Pueblo Colorado ("Stephen Jordan")
  CF Chiller Cleaning ("Mike")
  no topic ("Joseph Marsh")
  Wind shroud ("Mike")
  Stainless fitting welded inccorectly ("Milone, Gilbert")
  Mead Distillation & Questions ("DRTEELE")
  yeast, shmoo tips, Lactomel (Paul Kensler)
  ESB (Dave Kerr)
  Prebuilt Brewery and other things (D Perry)
  Re: IPA, part 2 (Michael Grice)
  Decoction; CFC Cleaning (AJ)
  Re:  Mead ???? ("Beer Phantom")
  Re:  CF Chiller Cleaning Help Needed ("Dennis Collins")
  Re: Wind shroud (Road Frog)
  Subject: Mead ???? ("Todd Tilton")
  Another Star San questions (Danny Breidenbach)
  Boston beer haunts (John Baxter Biggins)
  re: fwh impressions ("Steve Alexander")
  Well it figures doesn't it? (John Sarette)


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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 01:47:51 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Charley's wines

The long lost Charley Burns turns up with a wine cellar !

>1. Is 55F (great for ales) too cold for wine (red or white)?

It's nearly ideal.   Michael Broadbent suggests 55F(13C).
Hugh Johnson says  7C-18C (46F-64F) is OK tho' 50F
is his ideal.  Consistent temps are more important (within
range) than ideal  temps.  Humidity is the other issue.

>2. What materials should I use for the interior walls of the cellar?

Smooth moisture impervious surfaces are bad if humidity is an
issue. Low airflow spaces that gather moisture from condensation
on these surfaces are ideal for mold growth. If you care abt
humidity then porous surfaces have an advantage.  Brick,
cinder block, terra cotta and cement are all slightly porous
and help prevent surface moisture accumulation. These materials
will wet absorbent materials in contact with them (wood,
cardboard ...) so spacers are needed.

You might want to insulate the ceiling or any 'hot sides'  with
conventional insulation approved for your application, but don't
prevent moisture flow elsewhere.  A little ventilation is a very
good thing too.

hvd might be a better forum.

 -S
 



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:51:29 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Decoction Mashing

Caryl Hornberger asks...

>If higher temps cause tannins to be extracted from grain husks,
>then what about decoction mashing?

Some ideas ...
1/ The decoction boil causes the phenolics to
coagulate with the protein
/2 High quality 2-row malt doesn't release so much
phenolics at temperature.
3/ Decoction brews are typically lagered which
reduces the phenolic levels.

There is some truth in all of these.

If you're experiencing primary phenolic flavors (bitter,
astringent, weedy) look to the malt, mash pH, and
sparge first.

 -S




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 05:02:16 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Starch conversion ...

Kevin writes ...

>>EBC, IoB and ASBC each have a 'lab' mash regimes
>>which are rather hot and very thin and these regularly
>>produce high levels of extraction and complete
>>conversion *of starch* in relatively short period of
>>time,  5-15 minutes. 
>[...]
>Sounds like some confusion over terminology, Isn't
>this simply referring to starch in solution?  That I
>believe,  but there is quite a bit of starch still in
>granule form that slowly gelatinizes over the course
>of the mashing process and can thus can be converted
>as well.
 
Yes, you are right.  The conversion time does refer to
starch in solution.

The open question is  .... how much of the starch is
in solution after 5-15 minutes in a lab mash and the 
answer is ... probably more than you'd think.

I don't have specific figures for a lab mash, but a few
sources reveal the trend.  M&BS pp 282 shows a figure 
that 90% of the available extract was extracted in 15
minutes for a particular 65.5C mash.  Similarly a figure
on pp 284 shows results from different research and
gives very early extract of about 27.6point-gallons/lb
at 65C, and about 30.4pg/lb at 70C.

In an EBC paper by B.S.Envoldsen his step mash
extracted 88% of final extract and 90% of
final carbohydrate 10 minutes after the step to
saccharification (63C).  At the end of the 60' 63C
saccharification rest the extract was at 96% of final.

Lab mashes are thin and hot; the old EBC and ASBC
methods had saccharification at 6:1 at 70C.   Under
those conditions extraction should be decent at even
short time periods.


>Wouldn't this explain why one can continue
>to extract more and more dextrins and sugars from
>grains that are allowed to rest periodically during a
>sparge?  [...] I'll let
>my mash rest 15 minutes or so and the runoff has
>jumped up dramatically in gravity.  

Possibly, but I don't think that's the effect you are seeing.
I suspect what you are seeing during a 15 minute sparge
rest is the soluble extract  concentrations are equalizing
between the grist and lauter water.  Extract trapped in
the gristbed is decreasing as lauter run-off solubles
increase.

There is always additional starch granule gelatinization
as time and temperature increase, and sugar concentration
decreases, but the amount is small beyond the
conventional 'gelatinization temp'.

>OK,  so this is based in reality...a reality in a lab.
>but my homebrewery is a long way from this lab, as are
>a majority of HBDers.  

You should be sceptical.  No figure is an ideal
characterization of malt, and lab conditions don't
mimic real brewing conditions.

I mentioned  our mashes are thicker with cooler
saccharification which slows starch extraction.  Still
I'm pretty sure you could mash-out a conventional
HB mash  after 20-25 minutes and never see a
starch problem.

 -S




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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:19:32 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Re: FWH impressions/hops flavor

Funny you should be skeptical about getting high hop flavors and aroma from
FWH, as I only FWH for those beers where I want high hop flavor and aroma.
Although I'd be the first to admit that I find the aroma aspects of FWH a
little overstated, and for a PU clone I would be likely to add a heavy
aroma charge at KO along with either FWH or MHing since you rarely can
overdo that wonderful aroma.

As for how I do it...

1)  I always mash out by raising the mash to 175F and try to maintain temps
with 180F sparge water.  My mash tun is usually insulated with reflective
bubble wrap, and the wort coming out of the tun is generally between
170-175F.  And I almost always brew either 7.5 or 10 gallon batches in a
converted keg system.

2)  I recirculate the mash with a centrifugal pump continuously during the
mash until the wort remains brilliantly clear for about 20 minutes, when it
gets pumped directly into a 14 gallon SS pot.  Screw the iodine test...I go
by intuition.  Let the wort cover the bottom of the pot for about two
inches and then toss in the entire hop charge.

3)  Let the kettle fill halfway with wort then switch on the burner, while
allowing the wort to continue to flow in.  This will allow the kettle wort
to be boiling by the time the last of the wort is drained from the tun.

4)  Boil.  Chill.  Ferment.  Drink.

It's pretty simple, IMHO, and I don't deviate from this general procedure
much.  When MHing I just toss 1.5x the amount of the total aroma and flavor
addition in the mash tun from the start.  I've never had a problem with a
stuck mash yet, but I do take a lot of time to set up the filter bed since
I recirculate the wort through the mash for the entire time.  In fact,
using my March pump and a 1/2" full-port valve, I can eventually leave the
valve fully open while the pump is running even when MHing.  Since the pump
is rated for 3gpm, I recirculate the entire mash every 2-3 minutes!  My
extractions are regularly between 82-85% via ProMash and StrangeBrew.

Hope this provides another set of data points.

Cheers!
Marc

>
> =====
> Steve A. says ...
>
> FWH only might work for a German pils where the hops aroma/flavor
> can be "low to high" but I'm dubious about getting high levels of hop
> flavor and especially aroma from FWH only - a PU clone for example..
> Can you get such a level of hops flavor from FHW only Marc ? What
> technique (details please).  Before defining a Pivo-esque experiment
> to compare FHW with EB hops I think we should understand what the
> proponents suggest gives maximal FWH flavor.
>
> -S

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:36:12 -0400
From: "Stephen Jordan" <Carrotbay at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Brewing in Pueblo Colorado

Hello Brewers!

 

Moving to Pueblo and would like to know if anyone has any info on brew
shops and brew clubs in that area. Also does anyone know of any good
brew pubs in Pueblo?

 

Thanks

Stephen





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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:45:41 -0700
From: "Mike" <Mike at Bronosky.com>
Subject: CF Chiller Cleaning

A friend of mine has a Hearts CF chiller. They recomend Zip-It, a coffee
pot/thermos-bottle cleaner. I should be in the ground coffee section of
supermarkets. He done this because the heat transfer, after several years
became very poor. I suppose the inside copper became oxidized.

Another friend of mine works for a pipeline company that pumps crude oil
from the Gulf of Mexico to the Ohio valley. Every once in a while they run a
"pig" through the pipe that scrapes and cleans the inside surface of the
pipe. May be you could take a small circular brush the would go through the
tubing and force it through with water pressure.

Mike





Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:14:08 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: no topic



I'm trying to warn people about a new feature from hotmail. The latest 
version does not take your name off the login page when you sign out and in 
some circumstances it will let you login as the last user.

So if you are using a library computer make sure you click on the box labled 
"I'm using a shared/library computer."



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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:11:55 -0700
From: "Mike" <Mike at Bronosky.com>
Subject: Wind shroud

I got the idea for this from a book I believe, Building Homebrew Equipment.

I had an company that custom makes heating ducts to fabricate what is
basicly an adaptor to connect two different diameter ducts.
The top end of the shroud has a1 inch clearance all the way around the brew
pot, 2 inches bigger.
The bottom has a 2 inch clearance, 4 inches bigger.
The shroud is 24 inches tall.
For transportation and storage the shroud was made to consist of 3 pieces of
sheet metal. Each piece is 1 inch longer to provide a 1 inch overlap that I
used sheetmetal screws, top, middle and bottom to hold it together. Pop
rivets would have also worked.
I used 3, 1/4" I-beam clamps, clamped to the legs several inches below the
bottom of the pot with 3 or 4 inch 1/4 inch bolts sticking out to support
the shroud.
A slot was cut into the bottom of the shoud to allow it to go down past the
drain. Why did I want it down that far? When I first put it on there was
lots of heat going out past the shourd and I wanted that heat to go up
between the shoud and the pop. I place my hand down there judging how far
down to move the shoud to collect most of the heat.

This does several things: Keeps the heat off your legs, heats the contents
of the pot faster, save propane and does help tame the wind.

As a side note. I have a mirror that I use as a rear view mirror. It lays
underneath the brew pot so I can see and adjust the flame without standing
on my head. It makes adjusting the propane and air supply much easier.

Mike




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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:44:20 -0400
From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone at uconn.edu>
Subject: Stainless fitting welded inccorectly

Hi All,
	I just had a stainless fitting welded into my brew kettle, and the
dumby used regular welding wire. Is there a coating I can apply over the
weld to seal it? I don't want every batch to be Iron Oxide Ale. I was
thinking of using lead free solder or silver solder.
 -Gil Milone


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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:14:01 -0400
From: "DRTEELE" <drteele at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Mead Distillation & Questions

Mark,

Mead brandy is exactly what they call it, at least from the references I
have come across. Those references also say that a distilled metheglin is
what Drambouie is based on.

Now the questions.

I just transferred my mead to secondary (traditional clover honey mead
started on Mead Day-8/03). It was 2.5 gal into a 3 gal. carboy. In the 12
hours following, the color has changed to a much darker yellow, bordering in
tannish. Is this caused by excessive oxidation during the transfer (is this
a typical problem for meads)? Or is yeast trub just settling out from the
transfer (and this color is typical for a mead)? I would have liked to
reduce the potential for oxygenation during the transfer, but was limited by
equipment. I hope I haven't ruined it.

Dan (branching out from beer)



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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: yeast, shmoo tips, Lactomel

Interesting how the term "shmoo" has different
meanings to different people.  I suppose I too am
dating myself here, but I wasn't introduced to the
shmoo until he appeared in his very own
Saturday-morning cartoon show.  Off the top of my
head, I think it was around '82 or so, only lasted a
season or two and was entitled "The Incredible Shmoo"
or "The Amazing Shmoo" or something similar.  Think of
a Scooby-Doo knockoff with the Shmoo instead of the
'Doo.

I have no idea why I remember it, other than the fact
that my mind seems to be a steel trap for useless
knowledge.  Then again, the shmoo seems to be more a
part of public awareness than I realized...  perhaps
there is more to it...

Who else read the Zymurgy article on lactomels (milk
meads) and found themselves tempted to try one, if for
no other reason than to see what it tastes like?  I'd
like to try one, but I'm not sure I want to try one if
you know what I mean...


Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dave Kerr <dave_kerr2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: ESB

Here's an oldie but goodie from Charles Rich:
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/2357.html#2357-8



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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:11:26 -0700
From: D Perry <daperry75 at shaw.ca>
Subject: Prebuilt Brewery and other things

Has anyone ever bought the Brew Comerade from Stainless Steel
Specialists?  I was wondering because it looks like a nice system, but I
would like to know what any other brewers might think of it.  I have
tried contacting the company but they seem kind of hard to get a hold
of.  If anyone is wondering what it looks like they have an add in the
latest Zymurgy.

On another note, people are always saying that Zymurgy has more
technical information than compared to Brew Your Own, I just finished
flipping through and reading the latest BYO and the is an excellent
article on yeast.  It is nice to see that they are starting to include
more technical articles in their magazine.

Does any one have a clone recipe for Leffe Blonde?

Thanks

Dave
Sorry no Ren coordinates the site is down or moved




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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:41:07 -0500
From: Michael Grice <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Re: IPA, part 2

Adam wrote:

>On another topic: What's been people's experience with secondary
>fermentations of 2 months or more?  The reason I ask is I had a batch of
>Marzen spoil on me when I tried to change the airlock.  The airlock broke
>and the water inside got into the beer and the next day there was mold.
>Has anyone had problems with using a three-piece airlock on secondary
>for 3 months (other than the water evaporating)?

The only problem I've had with an airlock came when I brushed against one 
and knocked it out.

If you're concerned about contamination from the airlock, you could fill
it with something besides water. Winemakers sometimes do this. I've
heard of people using vodka or sulfite solutions in their airlocks. I
don't think I'd use a sulfite solution with beer, but if you had vodka
sucked into the secondary it shouldn't hurt anything--mold wouldn't grow
in it.

The downside to vodka would be quicker evaporation, but you should be
checking it periodically anyway.  
- --Michael


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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:44:31 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Decoction; CFC Cleaning

The generally accepted reason that boiling a decoction does not extract 
husk tannins is that the pH in the decoction vessel is substatially 
lower than it is in the lauter tun at the end of sparging.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I too have seen  black flakes upon backwashing of counter flow chillers 
and have also found them on the insides of the pump I use to feed the 
chiller. I don't think they are bits of hops but rather something 
deposited from other wort fractions - protein would be my guess. My 
procedure has been to hook up the chiller to the pump and fermenter then 
fill the fermenter with iodophor solution. I seal it and use CO2 to blow 
the iodophore backwards through the line, chiller and pump at a low 
enough rate that it takes about an hour to do. Towards the end of the 
boil I disconnect the line from the fermenter and lower it into a 
container of iodophor, turn on the cooling water and connect the pump 
inlet to the HLT which contains boiling water (used for makeup/dilution 
in the kettle) at this point. I run a gallon or so water through the 
system to rinse it, transfer some boiling water to a watering can and 
rinse the inside of the fermenter. At knockout it's then a matter of 
reconnecting the pump input to the kettle out, establishing flow and 
moving the wort line to the fermenter input when wort has pushed the 
remains of the rinse water out of the system. At the end of collection, 
a simple rinse with cool water seems to suffice. Touch wood, I've not 
had an infection from this source thus far.

I'm told that mechanical cleaning can be accomplished by attaching a 
small fishing sinker to some thin fishing line and jiggling the chiller 
to let gravity pull it all the way through. This should work 
particularly well if one unrolled the hose containing the copper tube. A 
stouter line can then be pulled through and a cleaning brush attached to 
that can be pulled through the chiller. I note again that I have never 
found it necessary to do this.

A.J.




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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:06:28 -0500
From: "Beer Phantom" <beer_phantom at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  Mead ????

Mark Tumarkin inquires:

"Now, I know it's illegal to distill, and you all know I'd never do 
something like that. But just thinking hypothetically, if one were to 
distill a mead,what would you call the product? Mead brandy just doesn't 
seem right, though I guess it works. Is there a better name for this?"

Why yes Mark indeed there is a better name for this.  I believe the 
appropriate term would be "hog vomit".

For pete's sake, as if mead wasn't bad enough already.  It is really worth 
breaking the law to make something so seemingly disgusting?

Repulsed in anonimity,

The Beer Phantom



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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:41:17 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  CF Chiller Cleaning Help Needed

 Rick asks about his CF chiller:

"...I just dumped my second batch in a row due to infection, a problem I
haven't had in 7 years.  I narrowed the problem down to my CF chiller
(copper tube inside a garden hose design).  I normally pump boiling water
through it for sanitation so on my most recent batch, I went an extra step,
by running hot caustic through it, then rinsing,
then running boiling water for sanitizing.  When I finished cooling the
latest batch, I ran cold water immediately through it to clean it. When I
disconnected the feed line, the backflow pulled out a couple of chunks of
spent hops.  Black ones.  Apparently in a previous brew, my zealousness to
get every drop of wort sucked some hops into the line.  This confirmed my
suspicion, but also puzzled me.  How can these nasties still affect my
finished beer when I've sanitized them multiple times?  The flow rate seemed
normal, so blockage didn't occur to me. It still seems normal but now I'm
concerned about additional chunks that can be in there."

A chunk of hops, however charred or mangled, has millions of tiny places for
nasties to hide.  It's just like not cleaning the stains off your carboy and
simply filling it with sanitizer, you just can't kill everything that way.
The crud has got to be gone first, then the sanitizing can work.

As for what to do now, I do NOT recommend forcing solid objects through your
chiller, this will scratch the inside.  What you might want to do is fill it
with PBW, cap the ends, and leave it for a day or so, then flush it with
boiling water.  That should certainly remove any stains on the inside that
contribute to infection.  If you're really paranoid, try this a couple of
times.

In the future, I would not store your CF chiller dry.  I would purge it with
water immediately after use, using water pressure to (hopefully) flush out
any thing that may have found it's way in, then siphon sanitizer through it,
cap the ends, and store it full of sanitizer.  It shouldn't matter how long
you keep it like this.  When you go to brew again, drain out the old
sanitizer, and siphon new sanitizer in 15 minutes or so before you use it.
After you use it, rinse, fill, and store again.  The trick being not to
store it open to the atmosphere.  It will always be damp inside the coil -
damp + air + time = mold.  With the caps on and full of sanitizer, no air,
no mold.

I have an additional suggestion, use some sort of screen in the kettle.
There are a couple of options.  I've heard many folks here on HBD rave about
the Bazooka screen (I've never used one, but how can all these folks be
wrong?), or I've got plans to build a Pancake Screen on my website.  Either
of these options should work great for keeping whole, or pellet hops out of
the drained wort, or at least keep the particles small enough so that they
can be easily flushed out.

Good luck,

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com





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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Road Frog <road_frog_run at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wind shroud

First I recommend one even if your flame is not going
out, it saves propane.  I use (insert drum roll) an
old metal garbage can.  The bottom rusted out, so I
split it up the side.  Prop it up about 4 inches off
the ground, hold it together with a short piece of
chain.  
Easy, Cheap,
Glyn (insert banjo) in lower middle TN, somewhere out
in the sticks.




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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:02:29 -0400
From: "Todd Tilton" <tilton at erols.com>
Subject: Subject: Mead ????

> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 22:29:06 -0400
> From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Mead ????

> Now, I know it's illegal to distill, and you all know I'd never do
something
> like that. But just thinking hypothetically, if one were to distill a
mead,
> what would you call the product? Mead brandy just doesn't seem right,
though I
> guess it works. Is there a better name for this?

It would be rum.  Expensive rum.

Todd Tilton



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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:09:07 -0500
From: Danny Breidenbach <dbreiden at math.purdue.edu>
Subject: Another Star San questions

A while back a few people were raving about star San.  My question: what
kind of impact does the "used" star san have on the environment?  Will
it trash my yard?  Will it get the city wastewater dept on my case for
dumping 5 gallons of stuff that I used only once?  Can I launder my
whites with it?

Just curious?

- --Danny in West Lafayette, Indiana



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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:57:07 -0500
From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggins at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Boston beer haunts

Will be travelling to Boston (specifically Harvard in Cambridge).  Need 
advice on the good places to go.  Note: will only be there a day, so please 
tell me the outstanding, must-see bars/breweries.

Private email OK

 -jb



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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:03:33 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: fwh impressions

Paul Shick writes ...

>   Steve Alexander gives a nice description [....]
>    I think we might need a bit more information of the

The 1st two were around 160F for ~40 minutes before
heat was added.  The other 3 rested perhaps 60-70 minutes. 
The boils times  were <120, 120, 120, 90, 90> minutes.

>These hops seems to contribute
>bitterness at about the same level as a 20 minute boil addition,
>according to my palate.

I'm getting at least 75% of the IBUs I'd expect from a 90'
boil when using FWH.  The two FWH only pils were above
35IBU IMO.  That's far above the 12-15 IBU calculated for
a 20' boil addition.

>...speculation...
>the more the acids and oils are bound up with the malt
>proteins/sugars and the less they're available for bitterness.

You may have something in the longer rest=more FWH flavor,
but the speculation .....  doubtful.  On pp 479 of M&BS you'll
see that at pH 5, wort will dissolve ~100IBU at 70C and
300IBU at 100C of *UN*isomerized humulone !  The
humulones and lupulones have no difficulty dissolving in warm
wort.  Solubility is an issue only after chilling and fermentation.
Perhaps a bit more bitterness from FWH  is lost in the
new-formed break, but not so much.

- ----
The first credible explanation of the mechanism of FHW flavor
survival into the beer was posted by Hubert Hangofer to HBD
just over 5 years ago from Narziss' writings and an EBC
Congress proceedings, see:
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/2479.html#2479-8
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3294.html#Contents
and several other HBDs apply.

The notion he conveyed was that hops flavor was carried by
certain hops oils (sesquiterpenes and terpenes) and that these
are virtually insoluble until and unless oxidized into an epoxide
arrangement with flavorful breakdown components
("caryophyllene-4,5-epoxide and humulene-1,2-epoxide" [...
eventually giving...]  humuladienone").  The unoxidized terpenes
might be lost as boil-off vapor in the boil, so there is speculation
that FHW gives a greater opportunity to peroxidize these oils
before boiling off.

In one of my last two FWH pils' I purposely exposed the hops
to an acidic oxidative environment (phosphoric acid and
hydrogen peroxide) for about 1 hr prior to using them for FWH.
This should have help create epoxides. The differences in hop
flavor of this controlled pair of FWH pils was ... nearly nil.  There
seemed to be a little difference in hop flavor loss wrt age but minor.
These epoxides don't seem to do the trick.

Also the specific types of peroxidized terpenes to ... have recently
been shown to NOT be the source of characteristic hops flavor.
Common hops sesquiterpenoid epoxides such as humulene
mono-epoxides and di-epoxides and their hydrolysis products are
not likely to be significant contributors to hop character.   Their
flavor thresholds are far too high.

Hops flavor and aroma are characterized as citrus, floral, spicy
and herbal.    The citrus & floral parts have long been
associated with monoterpene alcohols.  One of the mysteries of
brewing has been the chemicals responsible for hops spicy&herbal
flavor.    The leading candidates were the breakdown products of
Huberts' sesquiterpene epoxides.  Yet,  "Despite advances in
separation methodologies, development of very sensitive GC
detectors, and availability of poweful statistical techniques, our
understanding of hoppy aromatic characters in beer is still sadly
incomplete." [ASBC Q4, 2000, v58(4), "Hops a Millenium
Review"]

In Q1 2002, JIB published a paper by Goiris et al (Belgian researchers)
[JIB 108(1) pp86-93, "the oxygenated sesquiterpenoid fraction[OSTF]
of hops in relation to the spicy hop character of beer"].  This paper
describes the fractional distillation by supercritical CO2 dissolution
of certain oxygenated hops sesquiterpenes from 5 different hops
<Saaz, Tettnanger, Hersbrucker, Spalter Select, Perle>.    When these 
combinations of OSTF extracts  were added to beer devoid of hops
aroma compounds at only 20ppb(!!) it  "undoubtedly demonstrated the
spicy or herbal properties...".   A GC analysis of the fractions showed
21 peaks with very decided differences in the relative amplitude
(concentration) between hops.  Saaz had 10 times the amplitude at
peak 5 than any of the others for example.  Of the 21 peaks four of the
largest represent sesquiterpene epoxides known to be far below (>10X)
their flavor threshold.  IOW the minor OSTFs of hops are effective at
just a few ppb each.

This is obviously a tentative result, and it does little to resolve the
mystery of the specific chemicals,   but at least we know some things
that aren't responsible for the hops flavor; namely epoxides & their
breakdown products that everyone has been looking at for 10+ years.

=====
Marc Sedam says ...

>I've done plenty of pilsners where the FWH addition were the
>ONLY hops added. [...]  I did this on a N. German pils ...

FWH only might work for a German pils where the hops aroma/flavor
can be "low to high" but I'm dubious about getting high levels of hop
flavor and especially aroma from FWH only - a PU clone for example..
Can you get such a level of hops flavor from FHW only Marc ? What
technique (details please).  Before defining a Pivo-esque experiment
to compare FHW with EB hops I think we should understand what the
proponents suggest gives maximal FWH flavor. 

 -S







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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Sarette <j2saret at yahoo.com>
Subject: Well it figures doesn't it?

So I get my lifting restriction raised to 40 lbs, that
means I can do a full boil, I get my Spigot and screen
installed in my mash kettle only 5 years after I first
down loaded Jack Schmidling's article on Kettle
Mashing, I do an almost all grain Vienna Ale for
practice and I convert my popular (with friends and in
laws) Autumn Red Ale recipe from mostly extract to all
grain.  Then I go to the Homebrew Store.  It is
closing in a couple of days!!   I am going to have to
shop on line.  Shipping and Handling fees are going to
make it more economic to brew kit beers if I can't
come up with a plan to buy in bulk.  What I am asking
is this:  What is a good basic stock of malts, hops
and yeasts to have on hand?  I'm planing to buy in the
$40-$50 range at a time.  I brew about three 5 gal
batches in two months.  In the warmer weather I am
content to use cooper's or munton's dry yeast. In the
late fall and winter I have used wyeast in the past
getting no more than two batches from each one.
What pitfalls await me?  What tips and tricks in
storage should I know?  How open are brew pubs and
craft brewers to selling base malts to walk in
customers?  What is the most polite way to ask?
I really appreciate the assembled experiece of the
list and some day hope to contribute answers rather
than questions.

John
j2saret at homemail.com
Duluth Mn.


=====
God is not on your side
God does not take sides
God is a pure fan of the game.

Play hard.  Play fair.



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