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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Good Eats ("Chad Gould")
  pub pictures (Paul Kerchefske)
  amber waves ("chad. . . .")
  Re: First Wort Hopping Query (blutick)
  How Dangerous is STEAM, really? (Bill & Kazuko Macher)
  RE:  Basic Stamp used for RIMS ("Lou King")
  Re: Hose length and foam (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: CIP Stuff... (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Frozen wort for starters? ("Beer Guy")
  10 gal Gott capacity (steve thomas)
  starch test using iodophor? (Fran Flynn)


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Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 00:53:57 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: re: Good Eats

I have not seen the show, but:

> minutes. I don't know if I would recommend that to a newbie brewer without
> a few caveats though, for the same reasons you mentioned. Sanitizing in
> bleach is sketchy,

?? I was under the impression that bleach was no more or less effective at
sanitizing than other chemicals.

> using 1/2 lb. speciality grain for an extract batch is
> minimal,

I would think this is okay for lighter styles like blonde ales or even pale
ales. One mistake that has been pointed out elsewhere by others is he really
didn't perform a mash, he simply steeped grains in water. In which case,
1/2lb 20L Crystal is plenty. He also apparantly boiled with the grains still
inside, a procedure that potentially brings out astringency. Even in
steeping you are supposed to only bring the water up to 170 degrees.

It didn't sound too bad for a beginner, not concerned with the technical
details. We can get picky, but only the better homebrew books (like Al K.'s
or www.howtobrew.com) seem to cover a lot of the "beginner mistakes" that
this show missed. Of course, if you had to start somewhere, starting with
the detail will get you a better beer from the start. :)






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Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 06:24:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kerchefske <wadworth6 at yahoo.com>
Subject: pub pictures

I am looking for some interior pictures of British
pubs. I am planning on fixing my basement up am am
thinking of doing a pub theme. If any one has some or
knows a good place to find some any help would be
appreciated. Thanks



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Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:04:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "chad. . . ." <eclectic_solitaire at yahoo.com>
Subject: amber waves

the good eats show on the food network that featured
homebrew will be rebroadcast (as per website data)
sunday the 13th at six thirty pm eastern time on the
food network cable channel.  i too saw this episode
and find some minor faults but agree with the post in
that i couldnt do better myself in only thirty
minutes.




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Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:32:39 -0500
From: blutick at juno.com
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping Query

Dave Towson asked about the effects of the physical form of the hop
(whole, pellet, plug) and the effect on the result. I've been FWH'ing off
and on since George Fix first mentioned it on HBD. I've never used
plugged hops with this technique, so I won't speculate about how they
behave.

Whole hops have a tendency to float on the surface while the kettle is
being filled. I don't see how they would have any significantly different
effect than a regular hop addition at the beginning of the boil if they
are left to float on the surface. I've always stirred them into the wort
early during the kettle fill.

Pellet hops break up in the wort and behave nicely until the wort
approaches the boiling point. A large fraction of the hop particles are
then carried up by the foam. Left alone, much of the hops will be
deposited on the side of the kettle and are effectively removed from the
wort. This may account for the often reported decrease in perceived
bitterness from FWH as opposed to additions at the beginning of the boil.
Personally, I stir the foam down and even scrape the hops on the side of
the kettle back into the wort. In calculating bitterness, I assume that
FWH hops give the same utilization as an addition at the start of the
boil and I've been satisfied with the results.

In my experience, using my procedures, FWH'ing works about the same with
either pellet and whole hops. Nice hop flavor, but don't count on it to
add a big hop aroma.

Jim Layton
Howe, TX 


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Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 12:56:21 -0400
From: Bill & Kazuko Macher <macher2 at attbi.com>
Subject: How Dangerous is STEAM, really?

Hi all,

Steve Alexander asks about steam applied to a RIMS...

I think the simple answer is that steam is a heat source just as an 
electrical heating element is. A RIMS is a RIMS, regardless of how you 
apply the heat. In my case, steam is injected in a small chamber, that is 
positioned physically in the same place in the system as a chamber with an 
electric element would be.

Now my RIMS is manually controlled. Can a RIMS lack the automation of a PID 
controller and still be a RIMS? I would think so but will throw that 
question back at Steve.

Steve also comments:

"I'd strongly advise against amateur built pressurized steam systems."

Which simply sounds like a CYA statement to me...and I really can't imagine 
Steve wanting to make such a blanket statement in any case. But that advice 
would certainly apply to the steam generator! Amateurs like most of us 
should NEVER consider building a steam pressure vessel. If you are thinking 
of doing so...follow this advice: DON'T DO IT! And you don't need to 
either. You can use a pressure cooker as a steam source for low pressure 
steam. Keep all the safeties in place and you should be fine.

Now It is good advice to stay away from anything that can cause you harm. I 
am not sure the dangers of using low-pressure steam, supplied by an 
approved device such as a pressure cooker, with all its safeties in place, 
are great at all. Even super-heated low-pressure steam is probably not that 
much of an issue. Anyway, it is hard to imagine why one would even need 
super-heated steam for mashing purposes, at least on the homebrew level.

Pressure cookers normally are set to operate at 15 psi. 15 psi is actually 
quite low. A car tire would be pressurized at something like 28 psi, or 
more. Your water pipes in your home could be as high as 80 psi. A bicycle 
tire on a racing bike maybe 100 psi. Just for reference, the hydraulic 
system on my tractor runs at 2,000 psi. Now THAT is something to be careful 
with!

I guess I am not being very helpful to Steve here, but I must again take 
exception to his comment that he would "strongly advise against amateur 
built pressurized steam systems." At least with respect to how one might 
build one for home brewing purposes, using a pressure cooker as the steam 
source.

If we feel the need to be ultra conservative in these things, then we 
really should advise against building anything that uses pressures above 
about 1 psi, voltages above 1 volt, and temperatures above 115 F, as well 
as heights above 3 feet, and on, and on, and on...

Getting back to reality now, one certainly would not want to build his own 
pressurized steam generator. Even as a professional you better be sure of 
what you are doing when you do that! But using a professionally designed 
and commonly used item such as a pressure cooker for home brewing purposes 
is not the same thing as building your own steam-powered bomb.

Using tubing and fittings that are designed for working pressures much 
higher than 15 psi should give an adequate safety factor. Frankly, the 
thought of that keg of scalding hot water, on the top tier of those 
three-tier home-made portable brewing stands some people use, puts more 
fear in my heart than my pressure cooker, or 15-psi steam-filled copper 
tubing does. By a long shot!

Personally, I don't see the dangers of low-pressure steam, when supplied by 
a pressure cooker, with all its safeties intact, as being any greater than 
working with electricity, or large containers of boiling water. Just like 
anything else. If you don't understand what you are doing, don't do it.

I do not think it was Steve's intention to scare anyone away from the 
possible use of steam in their home-brewing process. And it is not my 
intention to talk anyone into using steam either. Steam as a heat source is 
just another home brewing option. Like electricity, it can be as dangerous 
or as safe as you make it.

Just like most things in life, if you become knowledgeable about them, and 
use your common sense, and keep safety foremost in your mind, you will be fine.

Hope this perspective is of interest...

Bill in Pgh, PA







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Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:39:24 -0400
From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: RE:  Basic Stamp used for RIMS

On the subject of PID controller vs. other temp controller, Kap'n Salty
sez:

"...You will want to implement a PID algorithm on the controlling micro
- -- or maybe just a simple setpoint/deadband will work."

I am in the process of pulling together a RIMS system so at this point I
have more questions than answers.  

Regarding the controller I just bought the Ranco temperature controller
(Beer Beer and More Beer part number FE610A) for $64, which I guess is a
'simple setpoint/deadband'.  The BB&MB folks said this should work.

- --> My question is, did I make a mistake or will this work 'just fine'?
To get it to hit the right temperature without overshooting, is it
simply fiddling with the deadband, or are there other factors involved
which can't be dealt with easily unless the PID algorithm is used?  (I
think I asked this before in this forum but didn't get much feedback)
<--

I did buy the Grainger 2E768 recommended by dion hollenbeck's web
site(http://hbd.org/hollen/textdocs/heater-element).  I will say it came
with a bunch of crud on it that I think I'll have to remove with
acetone, but that of course is a temporary setback.  (I received this
yesterday).

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD



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Date: 13 Oct 2002 08:16:36 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: Hose length and foam


What I have found is that no matter what hose length or diameter you
use, the first pint will always be too foamy.  Have you ever been in a
pub in the early afternoon and ask for the first pint from a
particular faucet for several hours???  Just watch, the server will
pour off a first pint of almost completely foam.  A faucet will never
settle down immediately after having sat for a while unless the lines
are refrigerated.  The small diameter of the line makes it a very good
heat transfer mechanism.  And as it warms, the CO2 comes out of
solution and is in the hose.  Until all that gaseous CO2 gets out of
the faucet, you will have foaming.

So, be sure to tune your system for how you drink.  If you pour
several pints in a row, make sure it works that way and expect the
first pint to be all foam.  If you only pour one a day, like I do,
then make sure to tune your system for pouring the first pint.  The
two ways can lead to very different hose lengths.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen


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Date: 13 Oct 2002 08:28:56 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: CIP Stuff...


I am probably the person referred to as taking their system apart and
brushing out the heater chamber in my RIMS.  I purposely designed the
system so that this would be easy.  I can have my heater chamber
disconnected from all wires and hoses and the elements out in about 2
minutes.  It takes about another 2 minutes to clean off the elements
and brush out the chamber.  Then I hang it up to dry.

I have never advocated that this method is better than CIP.  We all
have different ways, and this one works well for me.  I wanted to
minimize the amount of cleaning chemicals I had to dump down the drain
into my septic tank, so I use none at all.  I pump several gallons of
180F water through the whole system, drain it all, then brush out the
heater chamber with running hot water, and use a scotchbrite pad and
hot water on the heater elements.  By doing this quickly, I can then
hang up all the hoses and elements and heater chambers and they will
air dry very quickly because they are at about 140F.  In 8 years of
using my RIMS system, I have never done more than rinse the hoses with
hot water, and they are fine.  I only have to brush and scrub the
heater chamber.

If you intend not to use CIP, then it behooves you to design your
heater chambers so that it is easy to disassemble them for cleaning.
Both methods work fine, but for both, you must design ahead for the
choice you will make.  However, if you design for disassembly, there
is nothing stopping you from using CIP methods.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen



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Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:16:46 -0400
From: "Beer Guy" <beerguy at 1gallon.com>
Subject: Frozen wort for starters?

I was talking with my nephew about starters for a batch of steam beer that
he was making (his wife is worried about infection, since it's their first
batch ever, so I suggested making a starter and pitching tons of yeast, so
her worries can subside). During the conversation, I suggested that he take
a cup of the finished wort, before pitching, and freeze it in a baggie.
Then, next batch, boil that up for a couple minutes in a measuring cup the
day before brewing and pitch his yeast into that (putting it in one of his
sanitized bottles with a airlock and stopper), then pitching the starter
into his batch the next day.

But I started to think (always a disaster) that this might not be a sanitary
solution or that microwaving the wort to boil it (which was just to
sanitize) might cause problems.

Now am *I* being too paranoid?

Is this technique sound?

Henry in Portage, MI



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Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:22:04 -0400
From: steve thomas <fabricus at hvi.net>
Subject: 10 gal Gott capacity

Brian asks how much grain a 10 gallon Gott cooler will hold. I have mashed
43 pounds of grain in mine, but I wouldn't reccomend much over 35 pounds.
      --Steve Thomas



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Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:27:23 -0400
From: Fran Flynn <thurber at adelphia.net>
Subject: starch test using iodophor?

Since tincture of iodine seems to be rather hard to find, can 
iodophor be used to do a starch test when mashing? 

Tincture of iodine seems to be replaced by what I presume
are some safer alternatives like Betadine for use as a 
disinfectant.  Three different drug stores I looked in 
didn't have any iodine.

Thanks


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