---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Re: How Dangerous is STEAM, really? - moreso than Bill Macher thinks. ("Steve Alexander")
  RE: Good Eats ("David Houseman")
  re: RIMS Cleaning and Building ("C.D. Pritchard")
  RE:  starch test using iodophor? ("David Houseman")
  RE: First Wort Hopping (Eis) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Water Retention Rate for Wheat and Oat Flakes ("Deutsch, Stephen D")
  Re: starch test using iodophor? ("The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty")
  Re:  Steam Safety ("Beer Phantom")
  Re: starch test using iodophor? (Demonick)
  RIMS definition (hollen)
  10 gal gott cooler (LJ Vitt)
  steam dangers (ALAN MEEKER)
  Polarware pot ("Bob Hewitt")
  Re: 10 gal Gott capacity (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  Why can steam be safe? ("macher2")
  re: Good Eats (Rama Roberts)
  RE: frozen wort for starters (Kevin Crouch)
  Re: Basic Stamp used for RIMS ("Kent Fletcher")
  Re: How Dangerous is STEAM, really? - Continues... (Bill & Kazuko Macher)
  car boy cleaning ("Stephen H. Mackenzie, esq")


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 05:48:21 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: How Dangerous is STEAM, really? - moreso than Bill Macher thinks.

Bill Macher writes ...

> [..] In my case, steam is injected in a small chamber, that is
> positioned physically in the same place in the system as a chamber with an
> electric element would be.
>
> Now my RIMS is manually controlled. Can a RIMS lack the automation of a
PID
> controller and still be a RIMS? I would think so but will throw that
> question back at Steve.

So you extract wort via a manifold(or false bottom) + pump, pump the
wort-only
thru a chamber that has steam introduced and recirc the heated wort back
into the
tun.  That explains why it's a steam-RIMS.  Thanks for the explanation Bill.

====

> Steve also comments:
>
> "I'd strongly advise against amateur built pressurized steam systems."
> Which simply sounds like a CYA statement to me...

I have several potentially lethal hobbies and I'm no risk aversive CYA
type, but the risks have to provide benefits to balance the downside
and I just don't see that for amateur built pressurized steam systems.
I am also convinced that most folks don't realize the magnitude of the
forces involved in steam pressure or the terrible burns that can be
inflicted
from steam leaks.   Just look to the archives where folks have discussed
using sanke's as pressure vessels or defeating the protections on their
pCookers.


> You can use a pressure cooker as a steam source for low pressure
> steam.

Why is this safe ?   You take a design and modify it with some
plumbing holes, added stresses and  no calculation of the strength.
Most canners and Pcookers are aluminum which is relatively weak
and subject to fracture to start with.  You've got a modified pot
with unknown strength attached to unspecified piping which may
be prone to leaks.

IMO no amateur should consider building or *modifying* a
pressure vessel including the pressurized piping unless you
are working to a recognized spec.

>Keep all the safeties in place and you should be fine.


Probably - but what level of risk is justified when the
downside is boiler shrapnel in your body or 3rd degree burns ?
The clicher is that there is little reason for the use of steam
when HERMS provide better scalability & safety and similar
performance.

> Pressure cookers normally are set to operate at 15 psi. 15 psi is actually
> quite low. [...]

When you apply 15psi across a 100sq.in of modified weakened lid
and back it up with scalding steam you've got an issue.  15psi steam
carries a b*ttload of BTUs and burn potential.

> If we feel the need to be ultra conservative in these things, then we

I'm not being ultra consevative - steam carries serious hazards.
Safe operation of direct heated or an electrical heated system is
much more amenable to amateur efforts than a steam system.

> I do not think it was Steve's intention to scare anyone away from the
> possible use of steam in their home-brewing process.

I would urge anyone considering steam heating systems to investigate the
safety issues and to weigh the advantages against the admittedly low
probability of an accident, but an accident with potentially life altering
outcomes.

> Just like most things in life, if you become knowledgeable about them,
> and use your common sense, and keep safety foremost in your mind,
>you will be fine.

Right - but you can't afford to get that knowledge from the school of
hard knocks which means it's no place for guesswork.

The energy released in taking pCooker steam back to condensed
212F/100C water is some 550 calories per gram !!! That's about 8X
the energy needed to heat water from body temp to 100C.
Huge burn potential.  Typical HB 'plumbing' or backyard brazing
typical of other HB system designs does not constitute a safe
design here.

Bill - you wouldn't drive that tractor w/o a ROPS or dangle a loose
sleeve near a spinning  PTO would you ?

 -S




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:00:28 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Good Eats

Chad Gould says "He also apparently boiled with the grains still
inside, a procedure that potentially brings out astringency. Even in
steeping you are supposed to only bring the water up to 170 degrees."

This is a good point to discuss since this is a misunderstood point.  Chad
confuses simple steeping in too hot or boiling water with something that
"approximates a decoction."   The extraction of tannins causing astringency
happens whenever the temperature is high and the pH rises to above 6.0.
Note that we BOIL the grains in decoctions and this doesn't extract
excessive tannins because the wort has settled to a pH of about 5.2-5.4.  So
if you do as Alton Brown did and put his malt extract in the kettle with the
steeping grains PRIOR to raising the temperature, then this should
approximate the affects of decoction mashing with a lower pH.   So while
Brown's procedure wasn't one that I've  used, it should work fine.

Dave Houseman








Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:05:32
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: RIMS Cleaning and Building

Lou King asked about RIMS cleaning- specifically CIP.

I just flush with hot tap water then recirculate a batch of ~160 degF plain
water thru the RIMS after use.  Just before next use, I usually recirc.
some hot water.  I've used PBW a couple of times by recirculating it for 5
minutes then letting it sit for awhile.  No problems and it removes a fair
amount of gunk.   

- ------
Scott had some questions about a building a RIMS

>Someone at work suggested I use a Basic Stamp as my controller, rather than
>a PID.  Anyone doing this?  

I use a Stamp for controlling both the RIMS and HLT.  Details at:
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/rims_inf.htm

>Source for heating elements, relays, PIDs?

All Electronics and Jameco Electronics (www.allcorp.com/ www.jameco.com/)
have a good selection of solid state relays at decent prices.  Digikey has
a wider selection but is a bit more expensive.  I get heating elements at
the local Ace Hardware.  They can order 'em if they don't have what you
need in stock.  Be sure to get the low watt density type if you're going to
use it in a RIMS heat chamber.  They look like regular elements that are
bent back on themselves.  Regular elements work fine for the HLT.

c.d. pritchard     cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:08:02 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE:  starch test using iodophor?

Fran says:

"Since tincture of iodine seems to be rather hard to find, can
iodophor be used to do a starch test when mashing?

Tincture of iodine seems to be replaced by what I presume
are some safer alternatives like Betadine for use as a
disinfectant.  Three different drug stores I looked in
didn't have any iodine."


I find tincture of iodine at the RiteAid and CVS pharmacies in the suburban
Philadelphia area; there doesn't seem to be a short supply, but then maybe
some teens are getting high on this stuff too ;-)) so it was pulled from the
shelves someplace.   Yes, you can use the concentrated iodophor as an
indicator.  Can't say that the visual indication is exactly the same as the
color range from the tincture of iodine mixture but I have used it in a
pinch.

Dave Houseman




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:08:05 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (Eis) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: First Wort Hopping

Jim Layton gave an excellent response to Dave Towson's query on FWH, but
said he had no experience using plug hops.

I have done a dozen or so batches using plugs as FWH, with good, consistent
results. The plugs break up rather quickly in the kettle, which is
maintained around 170F, and I get good wort contact with the hops. If they
tend to float, I'll just gently stir them in (get thee back, HSA demon!!
;^)). I get a ton of hop flavor in 10 gallons with a 2-3 oz FWH addition,
but still need to dry hop for that over-the-top hop aroma when it is
desired.

I find that I don't get that much more bitterness from FWH, so I don't cut
back on the 60-90 minute addition at all. The end result may have a little
more bitterness than without FWH, but my perception is that it is a bit
smoother, so it doesn't seem like it's more bitter.


Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:24:39 -0500
From: "Deutsch, Stephen D" <Stephen.Deutsch at landsend.com>
Subject: Water Retention Rate for Wheat and Oat Flakes

I have 20% as mash H2O retention rate for malt.  Is it greater than that for
raw flaked wheat and/or oat?  I ask cause I lost about 15% of my brewing
water somewhere and this is the only thing of which I can think.

Thanks,

Stephen Deutsch


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:25:44 -0500
From: "The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty" <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: Re: starch test using iodophor?

Fran Flyn writes in HBD 4066:
======
Since tincture of iodine seems to be rather hard to find, can 
iodophor be used to do a starch test when mashing? 
======

I don't know the answer to this, but you could consider just not doing
the iodine test. Provided your temps are reasonably accurate and
you've mixed the grain and strike water well, the mash WILL convert. I
gave up on the iodine test years ago -- it just seems unnecessary. 

Which brings up an interesting survey question: Does anyone out there
with more than a few batches under their belt still do an iodine
starch conversion test? If so, why? I'd be interested in hearing any
contrary opinions. 

Cheers -- m


====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:48:28 -0500
From: "Beer Phantom" <beer_phantom at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  Steam Safety

In response to the recent post by Bill about how cute and cuddly and 
harmless steam is, all I have to say is:

15 PSI steam isn't dangerous!?  Are you out of your &$* at %ing mind?  Oh, you 
say, it's only "low pressure" steam.  Low pressure steam can't be all that 
harmful can it?  If 15 PSI steam isn't dangerous, then ambient pressure 
steam must be harmless like a cute little puppy, right?  Ok then, try this 
experiment.  Bring a pot of water to a boil on the stove with the lid on.  
When it gets to a good rolling boil put your face right down over the pot 
and take the lid off real fast.  Now, after the burns heal, write back to 
the digest and tell us how harmless the "low pressure" steam was.

What most people don't understand is that steam heat is different than 
radiant heat.  It's more than just temperature.  Steam contains energy, a 
lot of it (heat of vaporization).  When the steam condenses, where does that 
energy go?  To the body it condensed on mostly.  That's why things heated 
with steam heat up so wickedly fast.  If that body happens to be skin, well, 
you get the idea.  You can stick your hand into a 212 F oven and leave it 
there for a while with no ill effects, but stick it into a 212 F steam 
chamber and you will be on your way to the hospital.  Try the experiment 
above if you don't believe me.

"But what about a steam room?" you say, "people use those all the time 
without getting burned".  That's because there's no steam in a steam room.  
Steam is invisible.  When it cools down, it condenses into water vapor and 
it becomes visible as a white cloud.  That is definitely not steam.  Try 
another little experiment, find the place in the steam room where the steam 
is coming out and stick your hand really close to it while the steam is 
escaping.  Try to stifle the scream so as not to disturb the other folks in 
the steam room.

15 PSIG staturated steam (the "low pressure" steam) is about 250 F.  This is 
nothing to screw around with.  Pressure cookers have adequate safety devices 
and people use them all the time, but NEVER get complacent about what's 
inside that pot.  Yes, boiling liquid is dangerous, but steam is far more 
dangerous.

Personally, I think it's idiotic use steam in homebrewing.  It takes more 
energy to vaporize the water to steam than to just heat the water to the 
temps required for brewing.  Second, you have to worry about more things 
(condensate, pressure, is the relief valve on my pressure cooker still 
working?, drawing a vacuum on the system when the heat is removed), and 
lastly, even if you know what you're doing, the safety risk due to a failure 
is MUCH higher than just simply heating water.

With that said, folks who are already using steam - don't mind me, I'm just 
ranting.  It's just that some ninny will think it's a good idea and go 
merrily along with the sentence "How dangerous can steam be anyway?" ringing 
in his ears until he finds out the hard way that ninnies shouldn't play with 
steam.  I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Steve Alexander on 
something.

Shaking my head in anonimity,

The Beer Phantom




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:26:32 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: starch test using iodophor?

From: Fran Flynn <thurber at adelphia.net>
>Since tincture of iodine seems to be rather hard to find, can 
>iodophor be used to do a starch test when mashing? 

Yes.  However, allowance must be made for the color of the iodophor.  
Use the underside of a white coffee mug or other white ceramic surface.
Place a drop of iodophor on one side and a few drops of the mash liquor on
the other side.  Use a toothpick to drag some of the iodophor into the
liquor.  Alternatively, I suppose that the toothpick could just be dipped
in the iodophor and used directly. 

When interpreting the results, remember that particulate matter, even husk
dust, will ALWAYS stain black, so interpret the results on the liquid
portion only.  Helps to use a magnifying glass. 

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com





Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:31:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: hollen at woodsprite.com
Subject: RIMS definition


Bill Macher asks:

> Now my RIMS is manually controlled. Can a RIMS lack the automation of a
> PID controller and still be a RIMS? I would think so but will throw that
> question back at Steve.

And also, about a week ago, someone talked about building a RIMS and asked
about heating with steam in a jacket in the mash tun and should he rig up
a stirrer.

Maybe you all have lost the expansion of the acronym RIMS.  It stands for
"Recirculating Infusion Mash System".

Ask the following questions to determine if you have a RIMS:

1)	Do you recirculate during the entire mash?
2)	Does your system heat the grist with hot water?

If you can answer "yes" to both of these questions, then you have a RIMS.
If you answer "no" to either one, you do not.  Plain and simple.

So, Bill, yes, you have a RIMS system, even with manual temp control.  And
the fellow who was going to heat with steam, if I did not misinterpret, if
you do not recirculate the wort during the mash, you do not have a RIMS,
no matter how you heat it.

There are numerous ways to heat the wort.  Even the simplest, mixing hot
water with grist and letting it sit, if you constantly recirculate while
mashing, then you have a RIMS even if you have no temperature controller
and no way to introduce heat once the initial mashin has occurred.

IMHO, automatic temperature control and constant addition of heat are nice
additions, but not necessary to call your system a RIMS.  The
recirculation is the key factor in a RIMS, not all the other things which
many people seem to have attached to RIMS.  Yes, my system has all the
bells and whistles and automatic control, but that does not make it a
RIMS, it just makes it easier.  What makes it a RIMS is that I recirculate
the wort constantly during mashing, and that is what I feel makes the
incredible head and accentuates the malt character that I have come to
associate with a RIMS system.

regards,
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:54:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: 10 gal gott cooler


In HBD#4066, Steve Thomas wrote:

>Brian asks how much grain a 10 gallon Gott cooler will hold. I have mashed
>43 pounds of grain in mine, but I wouldn't reccomend much over 35 pounds.
 
How much water are you using Steve?
I thought mine was full with 22 lbs!
I had about 1.25 quarts of water per lb.



=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:01:42 -0400
From: ALAN MEEKER <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: steam dangers

Regarding the danger of steam - it is not the pressure so much as the
 /burn hazard/ that steam posesses. Steam can really cause some nasty 
burns because, on top of the fact that pressurized steam is "superheated,"
it also carries more heat bang for the buck due to the fact that it transfers
 its latent heat of vaporization to your skin when it hits it.  

 -Alan Meeker



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:55:33 -0400
From: "Bob Hewitt" <rthewitt3 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Polarware pot

Steven St.Laurent asks about filters 'n such in a 10 gallon Polarware 
brewpot.

I am currently using a ring of 3/8 soft copper, joined with a 
compression-fitting "T". The output of the T is a short length of 3/8 tubing 
that fits right into the welded valve port.

The original idea came from Bodensatz.com:
http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20020429190941604
And I bet I saw the gadget somewhere else, too.

All I did was complete the loop around the perimeter of the pot, and provide 
a way to use the valve port.

The ring is bent so that it sits on the bottom opposite the valve port, and 
rises slowly to the port. There are lots of 1/16 inch holes in the bottom of 
the ring.

I use an immersion chiller, and get a good whirlpool going before running 
off to primary.This works great with leaf hops, and acceptable with pellet 
hops.

Bob Hewitt
Cincinnati, Ohio





Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:30:23 -0400
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: Re: 10 gal Gott capacity

Brian Butenschoen asked and then Steve Thomas replied about
the capacity of a 10 gallon Gott cooler.  Steve said, "I have mashed
43 pounds of grain in mine, but I wouldn't recommend much over 35 pounds."
I would like to know Steve's Qts Water/Lbs Grain ratio for either of these 
two grain amounts.  I mashed 27 pounds of grain at 1.1 qts water/lb grain
this past weekend in my Gott cooler and there is no way I could get another 
gram of grain in that cooler.  I even had to take some of the mash out of
the mash tun and put it in another container so I could stir the mash.  I 
then added it back before covering the cooler for 90 minutes.  From this
I have made a mental note that 25 pounds is tops for a 10 gallon gott
cooler.

Bob Barrett
Ann Arbor, MI
(2.8, 103.6 rennerian)
We make the beer we drink!!!!





Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:12:10 -0400
From: "macher2" <macher2 at attbi.com>
Subject: Why can steam be safe?

Hi everyone,

Steve A. and another person [private email] question how one can have a safe
steam source at home...

Steve asks:

"Why is this safe ?   You take a design and modify it with some
plumbing holes, added stresses and  no calculation of the strength.
Most canners and Pcookers are aluminum which is relatively weak
and subject to fracture to start with.  You've got a modified pot
with unknown strength attached to unspecified piping which may
be prone to leaks..."

Assumptions...assumptions...always gotta be careful when making assumptions!
[smiling here...]

Modification of the pressure cooker is NOT necessary.

It just so happens that the hole in the center of the top of most pressure
cookers (that I have seen) is threaded, and is a common national pipe thread
(NPT) and one can unscrew the little piece that the pressure setting rocker
thingee sits on, put a short pipe nipple in its place, then a small pipe tee
on top of that and then put the original piece back in the top of the pipe
tee, and the little rocker on top of that. The standard is 1/8 NPT I
believe. The little rubber pug which is the emergency pop off is also left
intact.

Out the side of the tee, you can put a ball valve. Close the ball valve and
the pressure cooker functions just like a normal pressure cooker that you
let your wife and children use in the kitchen without second thoughts. The
pressure cooker is not modified in any way that will change its structural
design. If it is safe to use in the kitchen, it is safe to use in the
brewery. Simple as that.

If you are able to solder 1/2 inch copper tubing like commonly used in a
home, and not get leaks, then you can safely use the same copper tubing in
your brewery. Like I mentioned, normal water pressure is 3 to 5 times higher
than 15 psi steam. Using even the thinnest copper tubing that is used for
home water systems would give you a safety factor of probably 10 times or
better. In my opinion, which is worth as much as the ink used to write this
post, there is absolutely no safety issue here at all, with respect to the
likelyhood of one building a bomb rather than a brewery. Piping carrying the
steam will get hot though...be careful of hot piping!

If you drill a hole in your pressure cooker, you are taking a risk. DO NOT
MODIFY ANY PRESSURE VESSLE. That is good advice which any prudent individual
would certainly follow.

But again, you don't have to modify your pressure cooker in an way that
affects it structural integrety in order to use it as a heat source
providing steam to your brewing process.

Somewhere in the archives there may be a post of mine where I tell of the
time [fortunately] when, while standing outside our old home, My wife, kids
and I herd a boom and went inside to find a hole in the kitchen ceiling and
vegetable soup covering the ceiling, walls and floor...

Seems the pressure cooker the wife had was not designed well, and it was
possible to twist the top past the locking point, more and more, as the
gasket got older. She had twisted it till it stopped, and the stopping point
was the point where the lid was about to come back off again, unknown to
her...and after heating up for a while it did just that very thing!

Believe me, that can put the fear of steam into ya' !

But if you step back, take a couple deep breaths, and reason it out, 15 PSI
steam from a professionally designed pressure cooker that is not modified
structurally, well...frankly, 10 gallons of scalding hot water, sitting up
there six feet in the air on that home-made portable 3-tier brewing
stand...certainly scares me a lot more than my pressure cooker!

Reminds me of that dog a friend had when I was a kid...should have called
him Big Red...had long white hair before the pot of boiling water fell of
the stove on him...looked like a bald guy with a bad sunburn from the rear
legs forward...survived though...

Bill in Pgh, PA.






Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Good Eats

In response to:
> Sanitizing in bleach is sketchy,

Chad Gould wrote: 
?? I was under the impression that bleach was no more or less effective at
sanitizing than other chemicals.

Bleach is actually one of the best sanitizers available in the household (not 
sure how it ranks against homebrewing stuff like StarSan and Iodophor). 
The reason I say its sketchy is 2 fold:

1- I don't recall Alton Brown (the host of Good Eats) mentioning _rinsing_ the 
bleach solution off afterwards.

2- bleach is detectable by the tongue in super small quantities; so without a 
thorough rinse, you could end up with some off flavors. 

At least he pushed for plain, unscented stuff.
If I missed the part where he said "rinse well", then I could possibly see 
using bleach as a sanitizer, but personally I'll never recommend its use to a 
newbie.

In response to:
> using 1/2 lb. speciality grain for an extract batch is
> minimal,

Chad Gould wrote: 
I would think this is okay for lighter styles like blonde ales or even pale
ales. 

You could very well be right, but if you're going to go through the trouble of 
using specialty grains, why not up the quantity to 1+ lbs and get more good 
flavors? (perhaps for the reason you pointed out- he boiled the grains after 
steeping. Maybe using less grain was to help minimize that risk.)

- --rama roberts



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: frozen wort for starters

"Beer Guy" asks about freezing wort for later use as a
starter.

>But I started to think (always a disaster) that this
might not be a 
>sanitary
>solution or that microwaving the wort to boil it
(which was just to
>sanitize) might cause problems.

I have been very successful in creating starters with
this technique.  Instead of using baggies, I use 300ml
and 1000ml Erlenmyer flasks that I bought at an
internet science equipment supply site, but baggies
should work as well. Make sure they are odor proof, if
such a thing actually exists. I always brew a bit more
beer than will fill a 5 gallon carboy and often I will
fill some flasks with the dregs and freeze them.  The
nice thing about these flasks is that they can be
warmed directly on the stove top, or microwaved,
whatever works, to thaw them out. I *personally* don't
worry about pasteurizing them as freezing will stop
any of the likely resident bacteria from growing, if
not kill them.  E.Coli, for example (though we brewers
rarely worry about that one) has a temperature growth
range down to around 8 dgC, and it is a fairly
temperature-tolerant strain.  To ward off the hail of
"but thens....",  yes there are some highly
temperature tolerant strains that can grow down to -10
or -20 dgC, but you probably won't find them listed in
any of your brewing texts.

I really hope that no-one has made it their life's
work to determine the effects of microwaving on wort,
but I imagine that there is nothing to worry about
there. 

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, Washington



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:12:45 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Basic Stamp used for RIMS

Lou King  asked if his new temp controller would work for a RIMS setup.

> Regarding the controller I just bought the Ranco temperature controller
> (Beer Beer and More Beer part number FE610A) for $64, which I guess is a
> 'simple setpoint/deadband'.  The BB&MB folks said this should work.
> My question is, did I make a mistake or will this work 'just fine'?
> To get it to hit the right temperature without overshooting, is it
> simply fiddling with the deadband (snip)?

The Ranco ETC, for those not familiar with it,  is basically an electronic
thermostat with a very accurate thermistor temperature sensor, an LCD which
displays the current sensor temp, selectable Centigrade or Farenheit scale
and adjustable setpoint and differential.   While the relay contained in the
Ranco unit is rated for a 15 amp resistive load,  switching that load may
shorten the life of the relay contacts.  You may want to consider using an
external contactor or SSR to switch the heating element.  If you go with a
higher wattage element use of an external relay will be mandatory.  The
differntial on the ETC is adjustable down to 1 degree F., but you will need
to use care (not to mention a bit of trial and error) in placement of the
ETC sensor  to avoid short cycling with the differential set to the minimum.
Shorter cycle rates will also decrease the life of the internal relay IF it
is used to switch the heating element.

Due to the nature of an electric element (it takes time for the element to
cool once deenergized), you will have to adjust the setppoint on the ETC x
degrees lower than your target mash temp to avoid overshooting.  This is why
a PID is the prefered controller for RIMS applications, especially newer
units with 'autotune' logic which slef-adjust to individual systems.  But
since you already have it, why not try it?  I would suggest starting with
the setpoint 3 or 4 degrees below your target temp, and a simple mash
schedule for the first brew.  Start by comparing the ETC displayed temp and
that of your test thermometer in boiling water.  Then monitor your mash
temps frequently with multiple thermometer locations, and see how close the
ETC will control to your target temp.
Hope that helps,

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:34:57 -0400
From: Bill & Kazuko Macher <macher2 at attbi.com>
Subject: Re: How Dangerous is STEAM, really? - Continues...

Hi again,

Steve continues to worry about the safety of steam in the home 
brewery...and I think this is a good thing. Concern is ten times better 
than careless abandon!

Friendly discussions are fun and actually can even be meaningful...so let 
me respond a bit more...

>I have several potentially lethal hobbies and I'm no risk aversive CYA
>type, but the risks have to provide benefits to balance the downside
>and I just don't see that for amateur built pressurized steam systems.

Seems experience is opposing opinion here. My experience and Steve 's 
opinion.  Steve seems to feel that  a system running low pressure, 15 psi 
steam would somehow be set to self destruct at any moment. The reality is 
that such a system is far less like to blow apart than the water system in 
your home is. Now if you would use plastic pipe to build a steam brewing 
system, well that would not be a good idea. But who with any common sense 
would do that?

>I am also convinced that most folks don't realize the magnitude of the
>forces involved in steam pressure or the terrible burns that can be
>inflicted from steam leaks.   Just look to the archives where folks have 
>discussed
>using sanke's as pressure vessels or defeating the protections on their
>pCookers.

I am not sure what people realize, but this point is well taken. Steam will 
burn worse than hot water, both because it IS hotter, but more because when 
it changes state from gas to liquid a tremendous amount of heat energy is 
released.

> > You can use a pressure cooker as a steam source for low pressure
> > steam.
>
>Why is this safe ?   You take a design and modify it with some
>plumbing holes, added stresses and  no calculation of the strength.

As I pointed out in a quick post earlier, you are wrong in your assumption 
here. No structural modifications need to be made. And as Steve points out, 
they should not be made!

>Most canners and Pcookers are aluminum which is relatively weak
>and subject to fracture to start with.  You've got a modified pot
>with unknown strength attached to unspecified piping which may
>be prone to leaks.

A moot point since no modifications need to be made.

>IMO no amateur should consider building or *modifying* a
>pressure vessel including the pressurized piping unless you
>are working to a recognized spec.

Absolutely!

> >Keep all the safeties in place and you should be fine.
>
>Probably - but what level of risk is justified when the
>downside is boiler shrapnel in your body or 3rd degree burns ?
>The clicher is that there is little reason for the use of steam
>when HERMS provide better scalability & safety and similar
>performance.

I don't know about that either way, BUT my GUESS is that a HERMS-like 
setup, using a heat exchanger and steam instead of a hot water tank, could 
offer some advantages.

> > Pressure cookers normally are set to operate at 15 psi. 15 psi is actually
> > quite low. [...]
>
>When you apply 15psi across a 100sq.in of modified weakened lid
>and back it up with scalding steam you've got an issue.  15psi steam
>carries a b*ttload of BTUs and burn potential.

We need to erase the idea of modified pressure cookers from the discussion, 
since no modification of the pressure cooker is required or desired.

>I'm not being ultra consevative - steam carries serious hazards.
>Safe operation of direct heated or an electrical heated system is
>much more amenable to amateur efforts than a steam system.

No Steve, you ARE being ultra conservative, but do not realize it because 
you lack experience working with low pressure steam in a practical 
way.  OK, I admit it. I am making an assumption. Correct me if I am wrong...

You know in the worst case, it only takes 0.01 amps to kill a person. Most 
of the time not, but it can happen if you believe what is published by 
people teaching safety seminars. But many build a RIMS and tie the electric 
heating element to a 20 amp circuit breaker. That supply breaker can 
provide 2,400 time the minimal lethal current needed to do one in. Why 
should amateur efforts with respect to electrical power be less worrisome 
than low pressure steam?

>I would urge anyone considering steam heating systems to investigate the
>safety issues and to weigh the advantages against the admittedly low
>probability of an accident, but an accident with potentially life altering
>outcomes.

Good advice, but don't just limit this advice to the application of steam. 
Applies equally well to the gas line you connect when you install that new 
stove, or whatever.


> > Just like most things in life, if you become knowledgeable about them,
> > and use your common sense, and keep safety foremost in your mind,
> >you will be fine.
>
>Right - but you can't afford to get that knowledge from the school of
>hard knocks which means it's no place for guesswork.

And you should not have to. And no guesswork is needed with a steam 
homebrew system or an electrical system or gas piping or water 
piping...or...or...

>The energy released in taking pCooker steam back to condensed
>212F/100C water is some 550 calories per gram !!! That's about 8X
>the energy needed to heat water from body temp to 100C.

That sounds about right and is what gives steam the ability to carry heat 
energy from one place to the other..that is the beauty of steam.

>Huge burn potential.  Typical HB 'plumbing' or backyard brazing
>typical of other HB system designs does not constitute a safe
>design here.

WHAT??? Steve, respectfully, GET REAL. Do you somehow think that 240 degree 
steam at 15 PSI is going to melt the solder that holds copper tubing 
together? Do you think that 15 psi steam is going to blow a pipe nipple out 
of a pipe fitting? Do you think that 15 PSI is going to split copper tubing 
or threaded pipe? I can't believe you do...but if you do...please site the 
reference that has shown this to be the case. I doubt that you will find 
one. At least under real world conditions.

>Bill - you wouldn't drive that tractor w/o a ROPS or dangle a loose
>sleeve near a spinning  PTO would you ?

No I would not. And I would not claim diesel fuel to be as dangerous as 
nitroglycerin either.

My experience tells me that what you are stating with respect to using 
steam in the home brew environment is equivalent to advising that one not 
purchase a tractor because it is possible to catch your hair in the 
spinning shaft, and suddenly lose your scalp! And yes, this has happened to 
an unfortunate young lady on a farm...as have worse things. But we still 
buy those tractors, don't we?

Anyone reading this thread now and in the future should keep the following 
in mind:

Steam can kill you. So can electricity. So can scalding hot water, at least 
if it burns enough of you.

Never, ever modify your steam source. Don't build one yourself. Use a 
pressure cooker and take the steam out the existing center hole, and keep 
the pressure setting little rocker devise intact as originally designed (as 
explained in my previous post). Leave the design of the pressure vessel to 
the professional with experience. Leave all the original safeties in place.

Remember that steam burns much worse than water. GREAT energy is released 
when steam turns back into water. Also the pipes carrying the steam will be 
HOT. 240 degrees F or thereabouts.

If you have any doubts about your ability to work with steam safely, read 
and totally believe, and follow to the letter Steve's advice!

For what it's worth, this is my experience speaking.

Bill Macher in Pgh, PA




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:09:28 -0400
From: "Stephen H. Mackenzie, esq" <smacken at mac.com>
Subject: car boy cleaning

I have a carboy that has accumulated dried wort on its sides, and so far
neither soaking or blasting with a hose can get the stuff off.  Any ideas on
how to make this usable again???
Stephen Mackenzie




Return to table of contents

---