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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Scottish Yeast...more (darrell.leavitt)
  Water chemistry question (David Towson)
  Beer in Niagara Falls ("Ed Dorn")
  RE: Secondary fermentation (Kevin Crouch)
  RE: 2 questions..Belgian Abby / Candi Sugar (Kevin Crouch)
  Re: Bottle Labels or Label Glue for Home Brew ("Jonathan Royce")
  Re: Bottle Labels or Label Glue for Home Brew ("Dave and Joan King")
  Re: Water heater element for RIMS (Dion Hollenbeck)
  label glue (carlos benitez)
  Turkey fryer cleanup (Audie Kennedy)
  RE:Bottle Labels or Label Glue for Home Brew (Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger)
  RE: Bottle labels or Label glue ("Doug Hurst")


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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:02:25 -0400
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Scottish Yeast...more

there were several personal mail messages to me regarding my questions about 
the WLP028 Edinburgh yeast...but I can report that the taste has subsided a 
good deal, and I personally think that there was a good deal of yeast left 
suspended and that that was what (in part) I was tasting.

Peter E, from Syracuse, may wish to add his observations...sorry Peter, but I 
don't have them.,...but they seemed to make sense to me as well...

Sorry to not have more definitive answers.....

I reused this yeast in a darker brew, then again in a Christmas ale (the spices 
may hide the flavor...if it is still there) and I will report the flavors here, 
as best I can...with my untrained, and absolutely amateur and subjective 
pallate and perspective/s...

 ..Darrell




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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:33:57 -0400
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Water chemistry question

As I prepared to brew a pale ale this morning, I measured the pH of my mash 
and sparge water, and noted a significant difference prior to 
adjustment.  The mash water measured 6.8 while the sparge water measured 
7.8.  Measurements were made using a Hanna "Piccolo" meter.  Both vessels 
were filled from the same water source within minutes of each other, and 
the water in both was pre-boiled last night.  The water here has enough 
calcium carbonate in it to leave a good scum on the side of a vessel in 
which it is boiled.  The main difference I can see between the mash and 
sparge vessels is that the latter has a 47-foot HERMS coil in it made of 
1/2-inch copper tubing.  Both vessels are stainless steel.  Would the 
presence of the copper coil account for the higher pH of the sparge 
water?  If not, what then?  Perhaps I didn't boil the sparge water hard 
enough to drop out the chalk?

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:21:03 -0400
From: "Ed Dorn" <edorn at cox.net>
Subject: Beer in Niagara Falls

My wife and I will be visiting Niagara Falls next weekend.  Where's the good
beer?  Thanks in advance for any advice.  Ed Dorn, Va Beach, VA




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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:42:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Secondary fermentation

On the following points that Graham makes...

>>primary fermentation is an expression that generally
refers 
>>to the process of fermenting wort to a desired final
or 
>>finishing gravity.  At this point, you often have to
do 
>>something to stop fermentation.  Commercially,this
is 
>>generally done by cooling the fermenting wort to
about 12C 
>>over a period of about 30 hours or more.
  
>>thepurpose of Secondary Fermentation is only to
produce 
>>Condition and not, perse, to drop the gravity of the
beer any 
>>more than necessary 

Graham,  yes, your explanation is quite different than
most homebrew books present it,  but then again,  we
are talking about homebrewing,  a pursuit in which few
of us have consistent control over the variables that
might allow a fermentation schedule as you have
suggested.  In addition, as you stated, some yeasts
behave quite differently than others, and we often use
a different yeast for every batch. All of these
factors combine to make such a discreet schedule as
you have suggested more of a fantasy than a reality.

I mean not to say that we can't, or shouldn't attempt
to acheive such a sweet fermentation, but my
experiences over the last 10 years support most of the
homebrewing texts that I've read regarding
fermentation on a small scale. 

In my reading of homebrew texts, one point seems
fairly well addressed with regard to the typical
homebrewing system.  The SECONDARY fermentation in
homebrewing serves 2 purposes; it removes the beer
from the trub sediment after the vigorous primary has
subsided, and allows for full completion of the
ferment before the beer is sealed in glass bottles. 
This is necessary for *most* homebrewers because we
often don't have a sound means of removing the wort
from the break in the kettle, and bottle conditioning
is normally done by adding a measure of priming sugar
rather than simply letting the residual dextrins
contribute to beer conditioning. Unless the beer is
fully attenuated, or drunk quickly, overcarbonation is
highly probable.

Even if one can produce a wort with a minimum of break
and other sediments in the fermentor, the homebrewer
might choose to "drop" his or her beer if a good
blowoff is not achieved, or if head skimming is not an
option,  as in a closed glass fermentation.  Dropping
is the practice of siphoning the beer from beneath the
head, which contains those nasy hop-headache resins
and other fermentation by-products that are more
desirable in a drain than in a glass. Dropping is
usually executed just as the primary starts to slow,
before the head subsides, at around 2/3 attenuation. 
Unless I'm mistaken, The stage of fermenation after
dropping and before bottling, kegging, or casking, can
be called a secondary as well.  In my experience, this
usually lasts anywhere from 5 - 10 days, again,
because there are forces at work in my small system
and with my yeast that I don't yet truly control or
understand, nor will I ever in all likelihood. 

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA




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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: 2 questions..Belgian Abby / Candi Sugar

"greg man" is diving into Abbey brewing head-first.

>>First what was the answer given to the guy about the
028 white labs 
>>yeast? He was saying something about the flavor
produced being earthy?

I have used this yeast quite a bit and never
considered it earthy.  It behaved poorly once when I 

 accidentally raised the temperature 10 degrees on it
(55-65) rather quickly, and gave off some 

pretty undesireable higher alcohols. 

>>I know It doesn't ferment well below 62'f which is
strange for an 
>>authentic 
>>Scottish style yeast? They usually like the colder
temps...

I have experienced slow, but steady fermentations down
to 58 degrees with this yeast, assuming a 
healthy starter, as usual.  It was pretty alcohol
tolerant too, fermenting nicely from 1070 to 
1018 or so. 

>>Second an this is the tough one, Can you add sugar
to a secondary 
>>fermenter?
You can do anything you want, as long as your yeast
isn't sick.  

I brewed a Double style abby or trapist 2 weeks ago
this was it......
All grain  Belgian DWC
10 lbs pilsner malt
1 lb aromatic malt
1/4lb special B
1 lb light candy sugar


>>(should have used dark candy sugar) But I was
wondering could I do that now? After the 
>>beers been fermenting? Would I have to add more
yeast? {I culture so that's a 
>>possibility} ;)

That's great that you have the ability to culture
fresh yeast,  but I'm not so sure this will get you
anywhere.  Dark Candi sugar works well in the kettle
with a high-gravity boil to promote the maillard
reaction that darkens your wort, but I don't think it
has sufficient color to darken it now.  I say just
enjoy the beer as is right now without ruining it,
maybe call it a "Special",  yeah that's the ticket.
Some tips for next time would be to reduce the
percentage of pilsener malt and add more Munich malt. 
This is pretty much your call,  but you can go from 50
 - 100% munich, especially the Belgian Munich at 8 L. 
The Special B is probably about right, but I am on the
wary side when it comes to any type of crystal malt.  



>>my beer came out with 
>>an intense caramel flavor which is wonderful
(dec.)an from the special b I 
>>think, However in most of what is written about
abby's I have found 
>>that the majority say the special b provides that
raisin, plum flavor in the 
>>beers an not the yeast?
>>But This beer did not have those flavors, an so
perhaps the dark candy sugar 
>>will do it?, I'll let you know.One writer said
special B can be over used, so i only put in a >>1/4
lb? Maybe if you use more you'll get that flavor that
i'm looking for......(plumy 
>>ness)

I feel your pride in creating a rich, caramelly abbey
ale,  but you should be a bit wary about assuming that
one ingredient, such as Special B, will create that
certain flavor on it's own.  This might be true about
some flavoring adjuncts, but with most ingredients, 
brewing with them is more akin to sorcery than to a
simple flavor infusion. It is the combination of the
grains, the water, the yeast, and the hops brewed in a
certain way, fermented in a certain way, and handled a
certain way that work together to create the flavors
we love.  

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA





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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:30:27 -0400
From: "Jonathan Royce" <jtroyce at directvinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Bottle Labels or Label Glue for Home Brew

Paul Romanowsky asks:

"...has anyone found a good glue/adhesive that when
used on home printed labels on plain paper will allow
easy removal of labels?"

Yes. I use wheat paste, which is a tip that I found
while reading through the hbd archives one slow day at
work. Here is the recipe that I use:

Wheat paste

Prepare 1 cup (2.4 dl) of very hot water. Make a thin
mixture of 3 tablespoons (45 ml) of white flour and
cold water. Pour the cold mixture slowly into the hot
water while stirring constantly. Bring to a boil. When
it thickens, allow to cool. Smear on like any other
glue. For slightly better strength, add 1 tablespoon
(15 ml) of sugar after the glue is thickened. After
using a portion, reheat the remaining in a covered jar
or container to sterilize it for storage or keep
refrigerated. If wheat flour is not available, other
flours will work.

As for stock, I print labels on an inkjet on a master
sheet, then photocopy the master because toner won't
run like ink. When I do color labels, I bring the
master sheet to Staples and have color photocopies
made, but this is expensive ($1.09/8 labels) and I only
do it for special beers (like this year's Xmas beer). I
find that regular photocopy paper is OK, but it tends
to disintegrate after soaking, which sometimes require
careful rinsing. A slightly better option (but again,
more expensive) is the heavy weight inkjet paper that
companies like HP market. I guess it is about twice as
thick as regular copy paper, and it definitely holds
together better when soaking wet. 

As for application, after I make up the paste, I use a
regular rubber spatula. I've found this to be the
fastest method and it provides a very uniform coating
of the paste.

Well, that's probably more than you bargained for, but
I hope you find it helpful.


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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:38:44 -0400
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Bottle Labels or Label Glue for Home Brew

I make bottle labels on my PC, and apply them with diluted plain old white
paper glue (Elmer's or similar), cut about 50% with tap water, then use an
old tooth brush to apply it, just enough to barely get it wet.  It dries
quickly, and a short soak gets them off.  The only down side is that you
can't put the bottles in a cooler with ice, and get them wet, but then my
printer's ink will run, too.

        Dave the Hop Head (BIER)  [396.1, 89.1] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: 26 Oct 2002 11:32:06 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: Water heater element for RIMS

>> Scott  writes:

Scott> Hello!  I just acquired 5 water heater elements new, 4500W at
Scott> 240V, but the element is not doubled over.  The total length of
Scott> the u shaped element (if it were straightened out), is 22", or
Scott> in other words the overall element length is 11"

Scott> Question is will this be ok to use for RIMS?  Should I be
Scott> concerned about scorching my wort?  

Scott> The tag indicates Incoloy.....suitable for RIMS?

As far as the alloy is concerned, yes, absolutely suitable.  These are
the ones I would recommend.  However, your final watt density is going
to come out about 3 times higher than I would recommend.  

If anyone out there has used watt densities higher than 15 watts per
sq. in. please chime in.  I would love to see how far the envelopy can
be pushed without scorching.  However, I like to stay on the safe side
and stay with somewhere around 1500 wpsi.

Here are the calculations for your element :

          Heater Element Watt Density Calculations

          Ovarall Length (inches)             22
          Number of Folds                      1
          (one loop = 1)
          Element Diameter (dec inches)   0.3750
          Watts  at  240v                      4500
          Calculated Watts  at  120V           1125
          Calc. Cross sectional area    1.178097
          Calculated Area               25.91814
          Calculated watt
          density in
          watts per sq. in              43.40589



regards,
dion
- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen


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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 12:10:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: label glue 

HI All!
  Paul Romanowsky is searching for the perfect glue -
I have found my 6 year old's glue sticks from school
are fantastic  - I print out a page full of labels on
any old paper (colors are nice!) then I cut them out
with corrugated scisors from the craft store (DO NOT
USE SWMBO'S PINKING SHEARS - that is one surefire way
to p/o the wife!!!) this leaves a fancy edge to the
labels - then I use a glue stick on the back and try
to line it up on the bottles so it is straight (no
sampling the brew prior to attempting this...)	
   these stay on well and come off with rinsing or
very slight soaking - good luck!

=====
BIBIDI !
        Brew It Bottle It Drink It 
       Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing
        Bainbridge, PA,  U.S.A.



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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 17:50:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Audie Kennedy <audie_24293 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Turkey fryer cleanup

I just bought one of those turkey deep-fryers with a
32 qt. kettle.  For the time being, it will have to
double as a brewpot/deep fryer.  I am concerned about
getting all of the oil out of it before I brew.  Has
anyone else been using one for both?  How have you
cleaned the pot?  I know it would be better to have a
dedicated brewpot, but I don't for now, and have been
brewing for quite some time in a 3 gallon and 5 gallon
enamel "canning" pots, using both, so the fryer pot is
an improvement in that respect.



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Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:33:26 -0400
From: Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger <katerob at erols.com>
Subject: RE:Bottle Labels or Label Glue for Home Brew 

Paul,

  I make a lot of labels for special beers, and my favorite method is to
print the label on my inkjet in a sheet of 5-9 (depending on bottle
size), take them to my local Kinko's and use the self-serve color copier
(I've found that the money-taker doesn't distinguish well between
8.5"x11" and 11"x17" paper...sshhhh...), cut the copied sheets into
individual labels, and adhere to bottles with any old glue stick.  They
come off easily under warm water (but don't preserve well with this
method -- save one or two from the copier job for framing), and are of
equivalent water-resistancy to laser printed stuff.

  Hope this helps.


- --Rob Hanson
the Closet Brewery
Cheverly, MD
'post tenebras lux'

- -------
He that drinks strong beer and goes to bed mellow,
Lives as he outhg to live and dies a hearty fellow.

 - 17th c English drinking song


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Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:46:49 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: Bottle labels or Label glue

Paul writes:

"Has anyone found a real good source for label stock, that when used to
create home printed labels for beer bottles, will come off easily when
soaked??

Or has anyone found a good glue/adhesive that when used on home printed
labels on plain paper will allow easy removal of labels."

I occasionally make labels for gift beers.   I print them on heavy white
paper with an ink jet printer.  The best adhesive I've found is glue
stick.  It's a pasty type of paper glue which comes in a cylindrical
container.  A few wipes of glue stick on the back of the label and they
stick to the bottle quite well.  They come off after about a ten second
soak in water.  I have noticed that the labels do fall off if the
bottles are stored for a long time (>6months) in the refrigerator, but
for most purposes glue stick works great.

Hope this helps,

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL


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