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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Cascade Dry Hopping (Martin_Brungard)
  Storing corny kegs ("Adam Wead")
  Re: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges (Michael Owings)
  RE: Secondary, fusels (Jeff Renner)
  Re:  Pot Calibration (Peter Torgrimson)
  Re: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges (Mark Kempisty)
  DME & ME pts/lb/gal chart? (Drew Shelton)
  experiments with corn.... (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
  Wine links ("Bill Frazier")
  Re: HBDer Looking for Wine links ("Mike Sharp")
  30 gallon fermentor ("Jeremy Lenzendorf")
  Re: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges ("Hedglin, Nils A") ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges ("Adam G. Fisher")
  General Flavor- Influencers in the brewing process (Victor.E.Franklin)
  Watering Holes in Parsippany NJ and McLean VA (Larry Bristol)
  Preservatives in Spices ("John Misrahi")
  re: Subject: FW: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges (John Sarette)
  last time (for a while) with WLP028 Edinburgh Yeast (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: HBDer Looking for Wine links (Michael Grice)
  Old Fezziwig Recipe? (Steve Tighe)


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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:23:41 -0500
From: Martin_Brungard at URSCorp.com
Subject: Cascade Dry Hopping

Brother Bill Frazier's comments on SNPA and his recommendations for dry
hopping got me thinking.  What is the experience of others on the amount
and the contact time for dry hopping with cascade in particular and other
hops?

I am a big fan of American PA's and BA's.  I've dry hopped with Cascade for
a number of years with varying degrees of success.  Through all this
experience, I've come to the conclusion that 1/2 oz of cascade pellets in a
5 gallon batch with one week of contact time produces the flavor balance
and best results (to my tastes).  I've tried larger additions (1 oz/ 5 gal)
and longer times (2 weeks), but neither produced a pleasing result.  The
flavor becomes more grassy and harsh when I exceed my concluded limits.
I've reviewed this result on recipes that are identical other than the dry
hopping, so there is some comparative basis.  I've also dry hopped with
Northern Brewer and Cascade, which produces a pleasant combination.

The fact that Bill recommended 1/2 oz/ 5 gal Cascade made me wonder if
others had also observed that there is a limit to dry hopping.  Does anyone
have additional data or research that suggests that there is a best dry
hopping schedule?  Best isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:03:22 -0700
From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com>
Subject: Storing corny kegs

Dear All-

I have now, 2 corny kegs for storing beer.  I was wondering what's the 
easiest/best way of storing them while empty.  I have them both dry and 
empty at the moment, but lightly pressurized (about 5 psi).

I was thinking about keeping them half full with a BTF solution so they 
would be sanitized and ready to go come kegging time; however, is it bad to 
keep the BTF in it for an extended amount of time, like a month or more?

As always, thanks for the great advice.

Adam Wead
Bloomington, IN
[258.5, 214.1] Apparent Rennerian







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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:37:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Owings <tafkaks at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges

"Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> wrote:
> Hi, Does anyone have ideas how I can safely mark the
> inside of a stainless steel pot?  I brewed a batch 
> yesterday that I was quite pleased with, hit the OG
> on the nose.  But, I wasn't sure what my starting or
> ending volumes were since my brewing pot & most of 
> my carboys aren't marked.  

The normal method of doing this is with a sight gauge,
but I use a simpler method. Basically, I just use a
yardstick and measured amounts of water to calibrate
the volume of liquid in the pot in inches. For
example, 1 inch = 1 gallon, 2.5 = 2 gallons, 4 = 3
gallons, etc. 

When I need to measure the amount of water in the pot,
I just stick a yardstick in and measure the liquid
level. This is reasonably accurate even with boiling
wort, which takes up about 4% more volume. Low tech,
but it works for me, accurate to around a quart or so.

Hope that helps -- tafKaks



=====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html



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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:08:35 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Secondary, fusels

At 9:26 AM -0800 10/28/02, Kevin Crouch wrote:

>I meant to refer to the fusel
>oils produced during some fermentations that, as I
>understand, are held withing the krausen.

Well, that's a new one on me too.  Sorry to sound picky, but can you 
find a reference for this?

Some brewers (both amateur and commercial), as you may know, use an 
anti-foaming agent so they can ferment more wort in their fermenters. 
Many others don't skim.  I always skim ales the first few days so 
that the yeast I harvest later is cleaner, but I don't skim lagers.

Kevin also asks about my comment on dropping at 2/3's gravity drop:

>I'm not exactly sure why you consider this a later stage.

Because the fermentation is more than half completed and there are a 
lot of fermentation products that conventional wisdom suggests is 
harmed by oxidation and oxidation seems likely by dropping after the 
first day or so.

>I've also read that
>some British brewers circulate their fermenting beer
>by spraying it back on top of the head, though I don't
>know when they kill this process.

One of our local brewpubs uses a Pugsley system and true Ringwood 
yeast, and that is what they do.  They have a submersible pump they 
just toss in the fermenter on the second day and pump a fountain over 
the head for a few hours, I think.  This yeast apparently requires 
this treatment for complete fermentation, and rather high diacetyl 
levels mark the house character.  I don't care for their beers 
because of this.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:20:40 -0600
From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re:  Pot Calibration

Nils Hedglin asks about marking a pot for volumetric calibration.

I don't mark my pots.  Instead, I use a hardware store aluminum yardstick
as a dipstick.  I generated a graph which translates inches of liquid to 
gallons.  I have one graph for my pots and another for plastic buckets.  
This seems like a reasonable low-tech alternative to marking the vessels, 
although it is not as fast or convenient as a direct-read system.  I only 
measure the volume a couple of times in a brew session, so this is not a 
big problem.

Peter Torgrimson
Austin, TX





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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:30:25 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges

Nils Hedglin asks about measuring quantities in his kettle and
fermentor...

I use a dip stick for my kettle.  I filled my kettle with water in one
gallon increments, and put an old plastic long stirring spoon down until
the tip just touched the  surface.  At the top I wrapped a strip of
electrical tape around the spoon's shaft where where it met the edge of
the kettle.  Another gallon and the spoon moves up higher.  Since I
don't dunk this into the boil any further than the very tip of it, I
don't have any worries about food gradeness of the electrical tape.  The
spoon is food grade.  Note that this doesn't take wort expansion from
heating into account but is close enough for my purposes.

For my carboys I filled them with 5 gallons, stuck a piece of
transparent tape (the cloudy kind) on the outside and drew a line with a
ball-point pen.  I put another piece of tape over it so the ink wouldn't
run when it gets wet.

Total investment about $0.15.  Can't beat that.

- --
Take care,
Mark






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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:38:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Drew Shelton <drew_lucky_13 at yahoo.com>
Subject: DME & ME pts/lb/gal chart?

i just started brewing this past spring
i haven't really followed many recipes
i've kinda just make stuff up each time
so far nothing's gone terribly wrong
not even when i decided to put sumac in one brew
my question is
does anyone know of a source for estimated pt/lb/gal
for DME and ME, prefferably by brand name?
(i imagine it looking something like this)

Brand         pts/lb/gal        %fermentable
 A              30-35                 95
 B              32-36                 90
 C              40-43                 85

i've read that some brands have more fermentables 
than others
that's why i included that last column
does such a creature exist?
or is there just a general number for DME 
and one for ME?
i ask because
i want to be able to accurately predict my OG of
extract brews

Thanks
Drew
"beautiful" Flint, MI







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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:45:45 -0500
From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
Subject: experiments with corn....

Dear listers, (esp. Jeff)

I bought some wonder fresh milled corn meal at our parish (that's a county
for those of you not in Louisiana) fair with the thought of using it for
brewing.  Now I know that this has been discussed ad nausieum but for those
of us on the back row that were not paying attention, could you go though it
just one more time.  And for my benefit, could you not use words with more
that 2 syllables :-)

p.s., I also purchased some fresh cane syrup, figured if you can make mead
with honey, can you do something similar with cane syrup?  (the guy who was
making it said his great grandfather used to mention something called "cane
buck")

Brian Smith
Big Ring Brewery
Bogalusa, LA


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Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:06:00 -0600
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Wine links

Jay Wirsig is looking for info about wine making.

Jay - There is a very good "newsgroup" that discusses wine
making.  Subscribe to "rec.crafts.winemaking".  You will find 
a great group of people who make wine from grapes, juices,
kits, fruits, etc.  Novice types to commercial wine makers post there.

Try two excellent on-line winemaking books;
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/

Finally, buy a couple of books.  Try "From Vines To Wines" by 
Jeff Cox (covers all aspects of winemaking from the vineyard
to barrels).  Also, "Modern Winemaking" by Philip Jackisch
(a good technical text that covers the details of winemaking).

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:23:06 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: HBDer Looking for Wine links

>From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at usa.dupont.com>
>Subject: HBDer Looking for Wine links
>
>I've recently re-located to the Santa Barbara Ca. I'm an experienced all
>grain brewer  who would also like to learn how to make wine from Grapes.  I
>have a source of grapes, but have no clue about wine making.  the only
>decision to date is that I want to make a red wine.  I can't seem to find
>the HBD equivalent for wine making.  Can anyone help me?
> >>Jay
>

Usenet:
rec.crafts.winemaking

You can try google to get it, though it's not the best way to do usenet.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.crafts.winemaking

UCSB or the local Community Colleges might have an extension or open 
enrollment class, too.

You're living in a great area for wines.  I used to live there myself, and 
worked in that industry doing industrial controls and electrical work for 
many of the wineries from Santa Barbara to Paso Robles.  The best grapes, 
IMO, for that coastal region is Chardonnay and Pinot Noir.  I like how both 
do in that climate.  Zinfandel, Cabernet and some of the other varietals 
like it much hotter.  Some of the better coastal Chardonnays do a secondary 
malolactic fermentation to soften the acidity, so keep that in mind if you 
do a white.

If you're going to try a red wine, with Santa Barabara area grapes, try to 
find Pinot Noir, or get Zin or Cab from a vineyard farther inland.

BTW all, in case the janitors missed it, I'm sorry about the messed up 
subject line in my last post...clicked "send" too fast...oops.

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:31:35 -0600
From: "Jeremy Lenzendorf" <jlenzendorf at progeng.com>
Subject: 30 gallon fermentor

Going along with the theme that we try to find a way to use anything we can
in our homebrewing setups, I have recently acquired a 30 gallon plastic
barrel that originally contained liquid smoke (and there's still a bit in
it). I currently only do 5 gallon batches, but I figured this would still be
good for a primary fermentor now and for future expansion. Would it be
better to make up two 5 gallon batches and ferment them together?  I know
the barrel will impart smokey characteristics into any beer put in there so
I thought I could start with a porter. My other question is, do I need to
have more than 5 gallons to effectively use this as a primary and should I
use any special cleaners or sanitizers in getting it ready?  I assume it's
food grade plastic since it was used for liquid smoke.  It has two 3-4"
screw-in bungs in the top.  Thanks in advance for any advice.

I also wanted to mention how great an experience I had during my two weeks
at Siebel last month for the Concise Course Lallemand Scholarship. I am
still trying to absorb all the information I brought home with me! I again
would like to thank the AHA, Lallemand and everyone associated with the
scholarship. I look forward to being able to thank everyone involved in
person at the NHC next year in Chicago.

Jeremy Lenzendorf
West Bend, WI
(any brewers in my area out there yet?)



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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:27:04 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges ("Hedglin, Nils A")

Nils Hedglin writes:

> >   Also, I've always thought having a some sort of fluid gauge
> > would be helpful, like on the outlet of the hot liquor tank, so
> > you can know exactly how much water's gone into your mash tun.
> > Anyone know of a gauge like this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Nils Hedglin


The sightglass is IMO the best and safest route.  A Sharpie won't stay
legible, and a dipstick approach has sanitation problems if used post
boil.  You can dimple the kettle from the outside, but this is hard to
see, and damages the oxide layer on the inside, though it can be
re-passivated.  With a sightglass, you can put a scale calibrated in
liters or gallons or whatever alongside the tube.

For an HLT, a float and line approach might work.  A float sits in the
HLT, and is attached to a line which goes up and over the top, with a small 
weight hanging down the outside.  I've seen this used for large
water tanks, but I'd still prefer the sightglass approach, even though
it's harder to clean.

Fermentap has sightglass kits,
http://www.fermentap.com/brewequip.html
and Morebeer has a plain adapter as well:
http://www.morebeer.com/index.html?page=detail.php3&pid=H434

I'm sure there are other suppliers too, but I have a huge old gas fired
stainless coffee urn that came with two sight glasses, so you can hunt
around the local restaurant salvage places for stuff like that.  If you
find the coffee urn style, the tubes are relatively standard
replacement parts.

Regards,
Mike Sharp




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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:36:49 -0500
From: "Adam G. Fisher" <adamgfisher at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges

Nils asks,

>>Does anyone have ideas how I can safely mark the inside of a 
>>stainless steel pot?
>>
What I did was take a wooden dowel and mark it with 1/4 gallon 
increments up to my pots 10 gallon capacity.  Although a bit difficult 
to read in the middle of a full boil, stick it in you pot and you can 
get a reading whenever you need one.  Plus you don't need to mark or mar 
your pot at all.

Adam Fisher
Boston MA



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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:46:55 -0800
From: Victor.E.Franklin at bankofamerica.com
Subject: General Flavor- Influencers in the brewing process



First of all, as others have mentioned, I too am constantly amazed at the
depth and
quality of the information posted in this digest. Thank you to all who take
the time to
post and respond as it not only keeps me excited about this great hobby, it
also
assists me in thinking of things I never would have considered. Cheers!

I have deemed myself a lazy brewer. Not because I don't put in the effort,
but because
 my goal is to brew a great beer - with the minimum effort required. I don't
want to
create an extra step in the process or measure/ change something  if it
isn't going to
enhance the quality of the end product: maximum bang for my buck & time.
Therefore,
I want to concentrate my beer-improvement efforts in the correct areas. My
quandary
 is what the next item for me to improve is. (I think almost anything goes
since I am
still extract / specialty - grain brewing.) I am thinking that the first
step is to delineate
each of the primary beer-changing flavor-enhancing items that are
controllable, and
 rank them in order of importance to ensure I can get and replicate a great
beer. This
will also influence my rate of change into all-grain brewing.

** My questions are this:

1. For both extract and all-grain brewing (as I am thinking of switching)
what are the
items that control the quality of the beer?
I think we all know the ingredients themselves are important. I am looking
for the other
items such as, the temperature of fermentation, the water chemistry, or the
sparging
temperature.

2. The second question then is the ranking of the items.  Which are
imperatives to
ensure a consistent quality beer -  and which are, or might just be,
ancillary items for
 those who are more interested in the process versus the product?

After I get an idea of where to focus my efforts, I can research each of the
steps in
the process to ensure my procedures are as effective as they need to be.

Thank you!

Victor Franklin
Phoenix, AZ




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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:39:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Larry Bristol <larryjbristol at yahoo.com>
Subject: Watering Holes in Parsippany NJ and McLean VA

It looks like I will have to make a sojourn into the big east.  I am
looking for recommendations for brewpubs and/or good watering holes in
or around Parsippany, New Jersey and McLean, Virginia.

Larry Bristol
The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
Bellville, TX




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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:57:36 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Preservatives in Spices

Hi all

Around a week ago, i brewed a kit, a Glenbrew 'Santas winter warmer'. It was
on sale and i wanted a quick Xmas ale, didn't have time to start milling
grain etc..

Anyways, i boiled it for 20minutes with some brown sugar and 2 tsp each of
nutmeg, cinnamon and ginger. Chilled it, and pitched dry Danstar Windsor.
Next day, no sign of life. Pitched 2 more packets. They are all fresh yeast.
Nothing. It started making a little fizzng sound but i never got a head of
krausen and now there are dots of mold. It is going down the toilet
obviously. I have never had this happen in probably close to 50 batches,
extract and all grain. I am wondering now if it's possible there were
preservatives in the spices that inhibited fermentation (it's all i can
think of!). There is nothing listed on the bottles but i am out of ideas as
to why it didnt work. I have another of the same kits but i don't want to
waste it as well!

Thoughts?

John Misrahi

Pothole?  Thats luxury!  I have to ferment directly in my mouth.  On brew
day I fill up my mouth with wort in the am and drop a few yeast cells in and
3 hours later I swallow.  Wish I had a pothole to ferment in. -Mike Brennan
on the HBD

"Ah, Billy Beer... we elected the wrong Carter." -Homer Simpson




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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:01:45 -0800 (PST)
From: John Sarette <j2saret at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Subject: FW: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges



> Hi,
>   Does anyone have ideas how I can safely mark the
inside of a 
> stainless steel pot? 

I had this question too.  First I cut a notch in my SS
spoon at 5 gallons but that was hard to see against
the dark wort.  The people on the list suggested that
a high temp resistant paint such as grill paint or
enamal cookware touch up paint might serve to mark the
inside of the pot.  I checked at my local hardware
store, they only had spray paints and they tried to
direct me miles away to their wood stove and fireplace
shop.  What I ended doing was getting a stainless
steel yard stick cutting it off to the depth of my pot
and recording the various volume/inch relationships on
a laminated reference card.

John
(pretty much a straight shot to the U.P. from here)
 

=====
God is not on your side
God does not take sides
God is a pure fan of the game.

Play hard.  Play fair.



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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:43:55 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: last time (for a while) with WLP028 Edinburgh Yeast


ok...I am sorry to stay in a rut here,...and do apppreciate all of the replies 
and comments, but I think that I am slowly getting closer to this 
yeast "problem" that I have had, and continue to have....in that I try to use 
my yeasties 3 times...and try to make stronger and darker (usually) brews as I 
proceed from the first, to the second, to the third use...

 Well..I just put a batch of "Christmas Ale" (you know cinnamon, nutmeg, 
allspice...in the boil) into the secondary after 10 days in primary.  The 
gravity did not drop as much as I'd liked, but that , I see as less of a 
problem and will not bore you with it...


 What is more confusing to me is that the brew was VERY cloudy.  It tasted 
rather yeasty,...even though I could get the wonderful wassail flavor...

 I see that WhiteLabs says that this yeast is "medium" in flocculation.  Is 
this my problem? ie, do I need to cold condition at the end...or use some 
whirlfloc/ defloc product to get this yeast to get to the bottom?

 I have generally like WhitelABS...but think that I may go to the Wyeast 
version of the Scottish yeast next time...as several very helpful fellow 
brewers have suggested....

 Any advice or recommendations would be welcome...

 ...Darrell



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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:34:32 -0600
From: Michael Grice <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Re: HBDer Looking for Wine links

Jay wrote:

>I've recently re-located to the Santa Barbara Ca. I'm an experienced all
>grain brewer  who would also like to learn how to make wine from Grapes.
>I have a source of grapes, but have no clue about wine making.  the only
>decision to date is that I want to make a red wine.  I can't seem to
>find the HBD equivalent for wine making.  Can anyone help me?

There is the Home Vintner's Digest (HVD) on HBD, although the traffic
is *very* low at this time. You should be able to subscribe by sending
the word "subscribe" in an email to hvd-request@hbd.org.

On USENET, check out the group rec.crafts.winemaking (the archives are
also available at groups.google.com).

See also:

http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/

Michael


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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:34:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Tighe <steve_tighe at yahoo.com>
Subject: Old Fezziwig Recipe?

Hello brewers,

It's getting to be about time to think about brewing a
holiday beer. I was thinking that I'd like to try
something similar to Sam Adams' Old Fezziwig, which
has always been one of my favorite Christmas beers
(except the %&#^% only put it in the "holiday pack" so
I have to buy two "cranberry lambics" in order to
drink two Fezziwigs. Ugh!). 

So far no luck searching either the hbd archives or
the net as a whole. Anyone got anything that could
pass? How about holiday ales in general? I tried one
last year, and kinda over-did the spices.

I do partial-mash brewing, but I use promash, so I
could  pretty easily convert an all-grain or maybe
even an extract recipe, whatever's available.

Thanks!
Steve in Bezerkeley CA



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---