---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  How hot is sterile (was: splitting brew day) (Steve Tighe)
  Enkel, Dubbel, Tripel, Quadrupel (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Lagering Box (Which Controller?) ("John Misrahi")
  Blow Off and Burton Union, Real Ale Using the Philtap and Something Else. ("Dan Listermann")
  Heating/Cooling controller (Bill Tobler)
  Re: White Labs 001 use (Bill Wible)
  New York State Homebrewer Of The Year ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Re: Re: Water Softener Using Potassium Chloride (Jeff Renner)
  RE: tap-a-draft v party pig (LJ Vitt)
  Re: White labs 001 use (Jeff Renner)
  hop storage & amazon ("Ronnie Anderson")
  Aeration stone cleaning ("Tom & Dana Karnowski")
  party pigs ("Tom & Dana Karnowski")
  stirred mash ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Bazooka Screen ("Tom Viemont")
  Anybody doing short mashes? (Chris Mikkelson)
  Re: Building a Lagering Box (John Schnupp)
  Highlander Pale Ale (Todd Kenna)
  Re: Water Softener Using Potassium Chloride ("John & Joy Vaughn")


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:17:08 -0800
From: Steve Tighe <stighe at mindspring.com>
Subject: How hot is sterile (was: splitting brew day)

Regarding the thread of doing the mash/sparge one day and the boil the 
second day: I am actually right in between the two phases right now, 
which is the second time I've tried this. Coincidentally just today I 
tapped up the beer I made the *first* time I tried it (not the best beer 
I've made but I'm pretty sure there's no bacterial spoilage to taste).

I'm actually doing partial mashes right now, but I plan to switch to all 
grain soon -- and when I do I expect I'll have a full-time job again, 
which will crimp  my available time. So I expect that this will be a 
technique that will work well for me, so I can brew on consecutive 
weeknights rather than having to devote most of a weekend day to the task.

Anyhow, when I decided to try this, I concluded that when the runoff is 
complete the wort most likely IS infected, since I haven't sanitized 
anything to that point, and doesn't grain tend to be loaded with 
lactobacillus or some related bug? That being the case, I figured that I 
should be sure the wort that would be sitting around the kitchen was 
sterile when I left it. That way, there would be no buggies in the 
liquid, and probably precious few in the airspace above it. Since it 
would be covered, the penetration rate of new bacteria would probably be 
pretty low, and once something did get in it would take a bit of time to 
affect anything -- and as soon as the wort came up to a boil they'd be 
dead. Thus, I could probably assume nothing particularly offensive would 
happen in the 24 (to maybe 48) hours between killing the heat and wort 
boiling..

Anybody see any incorrect assumptions so far?

To accomplish my sterilization goal, I brought the wort to 190F to be 
sure everything was dead. At this point, the layer of whitish foam 
(coagulated proteins, yes?) was starting to form on top of the liquid, 
which I just ignored. I turned off the heat, covered the kettle, and 
walked away.

So my questions are (1) would heating the wort to the point the scum 
forms and then letting it cool, and leaving it for a day, be expected to 
have any effect on the beer? and (2) just how hot do I need to get the 
stuff to be sure everything's dead? Does it need to go to 190, or is say 
170 enough?

This approach really seems like a great method to, as someone said 
yesterday, fit brewing into the rest of my life. Hopefully I haven't 
missed any critical flaws!
Thanks,
Steve Tighe in Berkeley CA



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:34:18 +0100
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: Enkel, Dubbel, Tripel, Quadrupel

Hi,

I'm a little behind reading the digests.
Wade Hutchison (HBD 4094) thinks the name Tripel is explained by the brewer
on the label. I can't find the explanation (they don't say it's a Triple
because of ....). 
Dubbel is refering to the bigger amount of raw materials (dubbel is Dutch
for double). And so is Tripel and Quadrupel and Enkel (single).
See also:  http://www.latrappe.nl/english/frame-setting.htm

Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema
http://home.wanadoo.nl/hoorns.hopbier/




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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:27:33 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Lagering Box (Which Controller?)

Hi All,
Leo Vitt mentioned using a thermostat to control the light bulb in a
lagering box. What kind of thermostat/controller would i need? Is there
something that i could just plug a light bulb socket in to?

Something that could switch the bulb off at appropriate intervals would be
great.

John

Pothole?  Thats luxury!  I have to ferment directly in my mouth.  On brew
day I fill up my mouth with wort in the am and drop a few yeast cells in and
3 hours later I swallow.  Wish I had a pothole to ferment in. -Mike Brennan
on the HBD

"Ah, Billy Beer... we elected the wrong Carter." -Homer Simpson




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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:39:52 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Blow Off and Burton Union, Real Ale Using the Philtap and Something Else.

: "Mcgregor, Arthur, Mr, OSD-ATL" <Arthur.Mcgregor at osd.mil> mentions his
experience with recovering beer from a blow off.  We will be introducing a
related product shortly called "Phil's Pseudo Burton Union" that works in a
similar vein.  ( For the truly persnickety, please note that it is not
implied to be a real Burton Union system.)  It is a half gallon jar with a
hole in its bottom that uses drilled stoppers and a bit of tubing to form a
large chamber above the carboy where the foam can collapse.  Yeast settles
to the bottom of the jar and the resulting beer flows down the tube, against
the foam current, back into the fermenter.  Some yeast is collected in the
jar and the nasty resins adhere to the jar's walls.  While we will let
others make claims regarding flavor changes, we do claim that it allows
fermentation of five gallons in a five gallon carboy with greatly reduced or
eliminated beer loss which is clearly alcohol abuse.

To use the Philtap with a beer engine, you will need to remove the Schrader
valve core to allow the keg to vent.  A simple tool purchased from any
automotive parts store makes this easy.  Alternatively, don't remove the
valve body and just use the CO2 disperser as usual except keep the pressure
very low.  This will give a very similar effect, but not allow the beer to
go stale if it is not drank quickly.

On the subject of new products, watch for "Phil's Phoam Phixer" for kegging
systems.  It is a special clamp that allows you to "dial in" hose back
pressure.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:54:02 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Heating/Cooling controller

Scott and Todd were looking for a controller to heat and cool at the same
time...

There is an excellent controller on the market that does just what you want.
It's made by Ranco. It's the ETC-211000.  I have one, although I only use it
for cooling.  I really like it.  For specs and a general idea on how it
works, here is a link to an aquarium store that sells them.

http://www.automatedaquariums.com/ranco.htm

They are a little pricey and you may be able to find a better price
elsewhere.  You may have to do the wiring yourself, but the guy on ebay who
sells these, will do the wiring for you.  I think right now he just has the
single stage, but if you e-mail him he will probably help out.  Just search
Ranco on e-bay.  I don't know any of these people, just trying to help.
Williams brewing sells a heating pad or you could go to your local pet shop
and buy a reptile heater, which is ceramic heater which screws into a light
socket.  Cheers

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:59:12 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: White Labs 001 use

>I just used the pitchable tube of this yeast for an APA, and
>it seems to have performed quite well.  I would like to use
>the yeast layer in the secondary to brew a different type of
>beer.  Does anyone have suggestions on what other types of
>ales this yeast would be good for?   I am leaning towards
>some type of British Ale.  Thanks


WLP001 is pretty neutral, and good for most styles of ale.
According to the free poster/yeast selection chart that
White Labs distributes, WLP001 is the preferred choice
for all of the following:

American Style Cream Ale
American Style Wheat Ale
Herb & Spice Beers
Specialty & Honey Ale
Smoked Beer
Golden Ale/Canadian Style
American Style Pale Ale
American Style IPA
American Amber
American Brown Ale
English Old Ale/English & American Strong Ale
Barelywine/Strong Ale

Maybe the English Old Ale is what you're looking for?

Bill



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:59:47 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: New York State Homebrewer Of The Year

Attention Empire State Brewers!

Its organizers are pleased to announce the first annual New York State
Homebrewer Of The Year (NYS HOTY) competition.

The purpose of the NYS HOTY competition is to recognize brewing excellence
and activity based on success at participating AHA and BJCP sanctioned
competitions statewide.

By entering your beer at the following competitions you are _automatically_
included in the HOTY race:

December 7th, 2002: 25th Annual UNYHA Competition (Rochester)
February 2003: Best of Brooklyn VI  (New York City)
March 2003: 13th Annual HVHB Competition (Hudson Valley)
April 2003: 8th Annual Knickerbocker Battle of the Brews (Albany)
May 2003: 7th Annual Western NY Homebrew Competition  (Buffalo/Niagara
Falls)
May 2003: 6th Annual BEER Brew-Off (Long Island)
August 2003: 4th Annual NYS Fair Homebrew Competition and
 Presentation of 2003 NYS HOTY Award (Syracuse)

For details see www.nyshoty.org  .  The website also contains entry forms
and information for upcoming competitions.  As competitions are held, their
results will be posted on the HOTY site and brewer scores will be calculated
and posted as the HOTY race unfolds.  The winner of the NYS HOTY award will
be honored at the NYS Fair in August.

New York State is full of great homebrewers. We're going to crown the best!

(My apologies to non-NYS residents for the limited scope of this posting.)



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:36:22 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Water Softener Using Potassium Chloride

John Vaughn <hogbrew at mtaonline.net> writes from Wasilla, Alaska

>Obviously, I need to have a water analysis done.  Since this will cost me
>money (it is my own well), what do I need to ask the lab to run?
>
>A.J., are you there?

Until A.J. comes up with a better answer, I think you would want to
know the major brewing ions (ignoring charges here) - Ca, Mg, Na, Fe,
HCO3/CO4 (that's bicarbonate/carbonate), SO4 and Cl.  Ca and total
alkalinity alone would give you a lot if you are charged per test.
The low pH certainly makes it sound like you have low carbonate
alkalinity.  When you boil your water, do you get a precipitate,
especially if you add gypsum first?  If not, it means you don't have
much alkalinity, I think.

You definitely don't want to brew with as much iron as you describe.
AJ has written about iron filters, which aerate the iron to change it
from clear water iron (as you described it) to the other state (I can
never remember ferrous and ferric and Fe++ and Fe+++, or whatever
their charges are).  This latter iron then forms a gel which is
filtered out in a sand bed.  This might be a good thing to have in
front of your softener regardless, and it might be all the treatment
you need for brewing.

If you search the archives for delange and water, or delange and
hardness, or delange and alkalinity, or other water topics, you'll
get lots of useful info.

A.J. - I hope we can talk you into giving a talk on water chemistry
at NHC2003.  Or maybe I should say that I hope the organizers have
asked you, since I'm not in on it.  Or MCAB-5 in February, since it's
in your backyard.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:46:40 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: tap-a-draft v party pig



>have is that I feel you really need two people to fill the Tap-A-Draft
>bottles since they do not have flat bottoms to sit on.  The last thing I
>want to do is drop and spill one of those.  One person supports the
>bottle while the other works the filler and sets it aside.
 

Why can't you find a can, pvc tube or other round item, which the 
bottles can sit inside.  It will hold the bottle upright while you 
fill.  I suppose you need one for each bottle you are filling.




=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:44:54 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: White labs 001 use

homebre973 at mindspring.com writes:

>I just used the pitchable tube of this yeast for an APA, and it seems to have
>performed quite well.  I would like to use the yeast layer in the secondary to
>brew a different type of beer.  Does anyone have suggestions on what other
>types of ales this yeast would be good for?   I am leaning towards some type
>of British Ale.  Thanks

The WLP001 does make a nice top crop of yeast, as I recall, so in the 
future you might want to harvest that rather than the secondary 
yeast.  I think it is cleaner and healthier.

Now that you have it, though, I would not suggest it for a British 
style ale.  I think it is too clean and neutral in character for my 
taste.  http://www.whitelabs.com/ratings.asp?id=WLP001 has a list of 
suggestions.  Since you'll no doubt want something rather different 
from the APA you jsut brewed, how about an American style brown ale?

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:36:43 -0500 (EST)
From: "Ronnie Anderson" <lerxst at webmages.com>
Subject: hop storage & amazon

Do hops still degrade when they are in vacuum sealed "shiny bags"
(very technical term) and kept in a freezer? How about if they
aren't vacuum sealed, but are in bags that have had the air purged
from them with nitrogen? We have some old, unopened, sealed hops
left over from several months ago, and were thinking about using
them for a batch coming up, but are unsure about their freshness.


Also, I found this pretty funny:

I was recently looking through Amazon for Michael Jackson books.
Amazon recently opened their Apparel store, and have a new feature
like the "Customers who bought this book also bought...", except it
has to do with their clothes. Here's the excerpt:


Customers who shopped for this item also wear:
    *  Clean Underwear from Amazon's Target Store

Nice to see that beer lovers are clean people!!

Ronnie




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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:53:27 -0500
From: "Tom & Dana Karnowski" <karnowsk at esper.com>
Subject: Aeration stone cleaning

This is kind of skirting the issue of cleaning aeration stones,
 but I use a  PLASTIC white aeration stone (I think 
they are called Discard-a-stone) and I don't clean it at all.  
I buy a pack of 6 stones from the pet store (they are for aquariums)  
for about 2.50 & I usually buy a length of tubing too 
(works out to be about $1 US per 6' of tubing).  I chop 
the tubing into 6' pieces and then I thread the tubing into 
a racking cane with its "hook" part cut off.  I put the 
stone on the end of the tubing so now I have a totally plastic 
aeration wand. I set it in my iodophor solution for at least 
15 minutes.  I attach the oxygen and start it up so I can 
see bubbles coming out, then I take it and aerate the wort.

Now the beauty is, when I'm done, I don't clean it at all.  
I just throw it away (stone, tubing, and stone-tubing 
connector), rinse out the racking cane, and I'm all set.  
It is more expensive, but it probably adds less than $1.50 
(US) to the whole operation.  Maybe not quite worth the time 
savings (esp. if you already have a stainless stone) but maybe it is.

Tom Karnowski
Knoxville TN



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:57:59 -0500
From: "Tom & Dana Karnowski" <karnowsk at esper.com>
Subject: party pigs

I have a party pig & it is great, although I admit I haven't used
 it in a few years as I need to get a new o-ring for it.  If you are
 interested in "cask-conditioned ale" you can get a pretty good 
facsimile of it with the party pig.  The out spout even gets some 
slight beer engine sparkler action going because of its small opening.

I believe the pressure pouch that you use with the pig does NOT 
carbonate the beer. It simply expands to fill up the space created 
when you remove beer from the pig.  This way the pig doesn't go flat.  
You get the carbonation from priming just like in a bottle. In fact the 
pig is like a giant bottle that never goes flat.

Just my 2 cents but I think the party pig is pretty cool.

Tom Karnowski
Knoxville TN




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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:30:25 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: stirred mash

Shawn E Lupold asks about how long to stir his mash and how often.

I stir my 12 to 15 lbs mash as I'm adding my grain to water.  Once they are
combined, I gently stir for maybe another 1 minute.  I mash in a 10 gallon
Gott with a Phils by the way.  After 75 to 90 minutes of mash time, I drain
my runoff after 2 qts of reciruclation.  The rest of my brew session is via
batch sparge techniques.

My yields are consistent at 60 to 62% except for big beers where I limit my
sparge and drop to 55 to 58%.  I don't really push my sparge too hard
obviously but it is stable.

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:05:39 -0600
From: "Tom Viemont" <t_viemont at hotmail.com>
Subject: Bazooka Screen

Helllloooo Fellow Brewers-

Is this thing on?  I haven't seen an HBD in a few days.  I wonder if anyone 
else is having the same problem?   I guess not...

I bought a bazooka screen for my brew pot.  I've found that the screen is 
longer than the diameter of my kettle.  Is it OK to bend the screen to make 
it fit?  I hope so...



Best regards,


Tom Viemont
Raleigh, NC

[6916.6, 14.4] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:57:06 -0600
From: Chris Mikkelson <chris at mikk.net>
Subject: Anybody doing short mashes?


In the book "Secrets from the Master Brewers", the authors
refer to one of the brewers' 15-minute mash procedure.
I recently heard a local brewpub brewer talk of his
15-minute mash schedule (single rest at 160F, then sparge).
This mash technique sounds like it could be a real time
saver, and would probably make temperature control in an
uninsulated kettle a moot point, also.

If full conversion (resulting in a usable wort, and good
beer from all I've heard/had) can happen in 15 minutes,
why are so many AG brewers spending the extra 45 minutes?
Is there some great downside or gotcha with this approach?
Is it as simple as replacing your standard 60-minute ~150F
rest with a 15-minute ~160F rest, mashing out, and sparging
as normal?

Chris Mikkelson
St. Paul, MN


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:46:13 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Building a Lagering Box

John asks about building a lagering box.
 -I have a few thoughts, but basically i'm thinking of some kind of plywood
 -box with styrafoam or maybe fiberglass insulation. Just a simple hinge or
 -latch to keep raccoons out ;-)
 -snip-
 -the heating part
 -(a) light bulb painted black. don't know if it can generate enough heat, but
 -i think in a small insulated enclosed space, it might be able to do it.
 -(b) small electric space heater
 -I figure it will need some kind of controller...i know they sell gadgets you
 -can plug a fridge into to maintain lagering temperatures. Could it work like
 -this - sort of in reverse?

I've done this using a crate that I got from work.  I didn't even bother to
insulate it.  Not the most efficient but it works.  I just use a light bulb.  I
think I wound up using something like 75w for an average ambient temp of 20F. 
Just cover the fermenter with a blanket.  My method of control was also crude. 
The sensor was just stuck in the box.  This means I was actually controlling
the air temp.  I found that there was a difference in temp top/bottom so I
rigged up a small that came on when the light (heat source)turned on.

For a controller I used a controller from work.  Any controller that has a heat
function should work.

=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:58:14 -0800
From: Todd Kenna <Todd_K at cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Highlander Pale Ale

I am looking for a cloned recipe for Highlander Pale Ale From MacTarnahan's 
brewing co.  Any resources?




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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:52:53 -0900
From: "John & Joy Vaughn" <hogbrew at mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Water Softener Using Potassium Chloride

Jeff,

Thank you so much.  I wish I had teachers like you way back when I was in
high school. Of course, I was in high school only shortly after you were.
;>)  I have not added gypsum before boiling but when I boil, there is no
precipitate.  The softener has removed the iron .  Todd Snyder suggested
(off-line) that I aerate the water, pre-softener, to oxidize the iron and
decant off the water.

I think I'll get analyses for both pre and post softener water.  If all
else fails, I'll use bottled water or R/O water and add salts.

Thanks for your help

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 11/22/2002 at 10:30 AM Jeff Renner wrote:

>John Vaughn <hogbrew at mtaonline.net> writes from Wasilla, Alaska
>
>>Obviously, I need to have a water analysis done.  Since this will cost me
>>money (it is my own well), what do I need to ask the lab to run?
>>
>>A.J., are you there?
>
>Until A.J. comes up with a better answer, I think you would want to 
>know the major brewing ions (ignoring charges here) - Ca, Mg, Na, Fe, 
>HCO3/CO4 (that's bicarbonate/carbonate), SO4 and Cl.  Ca and total 
>alkalinity alone would give you a lot if you are charged per test. 
>The low pH certainly makes it sound like you have low carbonate 
>alkalinity.  When you boil your water, do you get a precipitate, 
>especially if you add gypsum first?  If not, it means you don't have 
>much alkalinity, I think.
>
>You definitely don't want to brew with as much iron as you describe. 
>AJ has written about iron filters, which aerate the iron to change it 
>from clear water iron (as you described it) to the other state (I can 
>never remember ferrous and ferric and Fe++ and Fe+++, or whatever 
>their charges are).  This latter iron then forms a gel which is 
>filtered out in a sand bed.  This might be a good thing to have in 
>front of your softener regardless, and it might be all the treatment 
>you need for brewing.
>
><snip>
>
>Jeff
>-- 
>Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
>"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943





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---