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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  horseys are your freind ("Dave Sapsis")
  False Bottom Elevation ("Bob Sutton")
  Quick force carbonation ("Mike Maag")
  Cider clearing.. how much? (LJ Vitt)
  Water Comments (AJ)
  RE: Feeding Horses Spent Grains ("L & K")
  Re: where to get parts for march pumps? (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Ayinger yeast, now available (Jeff Renner)
  yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. was re: Ayinger yeast ... ("Steve Alexander")
  restricted recirculation/is my horse ruined ? ("Steve Alexander")
  Parts for March Pumps (David Towson)
   ("Fred Scheer")
  amount of mash in water ("Fred Scheer")
  clearing cider (carlos benitez)
  re:brewing as a career ("Steve Alexander")
  Best Propane Burner? (Steve Tighe)
  Keg Lost it's Top! ("Dave and Joan King")
  Fruit Flies through the air-lock ("Gilbert Milone II")


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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:59:06 -0800
From: "Dave Sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net>
Subject: horseys are your freind

Bernd asks:
>Is it possible to feed spent brewing grains to horses
>(in moderation of course)? I was wondering if it was
>unhealthy/bad/ or otherwise not good.

Reminds me of one of my fondest old brewing stories:
Back in the late 80's I spent three field seasons in Eastern Oregon doing
research at a small National Monument.  I lived in a 16 ft trailer that was
located in the middle of a 3 acre corral that was home to two horses, Wil
and 'Lil (Ol Wilber was an 'onry old feller --  bit me once).  Anyways, I
brewed in that damn little trailer, ten million black flies and all.  Would
feed the spents to the horses who wouldn't even wait for the stuff to cool
off before munching (just picture a horse's jaws all a'movin and steam
coming out...).  Those horses caught on right fast.  Soon as I'd get the
wort up to a boil and the aromas got out, they'd take to coming over to the
trailer, whinnying and bumpin the damn thing till it got to swayin side to
side.  Had to shut the door to keep 'em from trying to walk on in.  Once I'd
emerge from the trailer with my ice chest full of spents they'd follow right
over to where I'd dump it out, and proceed to eat it -- still hot.

Lots of protein and a bit of carb, along with a good deal of fiber.  Quite
healthy (in moderation) but no doubt tough on the tongue.

cheers,
- --dave, sacramento



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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:10:11 -0500
From: "Bob Sutton" <Bob at homebrew.com>
Subject: False Bottom Elevation

Reuben Filsell stated...

"If your false bottom is more than 15mm above the bottom of the tun you will
always have trouble as this causes a pressure differential that compacts
your mash."

Reuben you've got to explain this one... High circulation rates can lead to
compaction, but having your false bottom too far off the bottom of the tun
won't - though it can increase the circulation volume required to achieve
runoff clarity, and in some small measure reduce extraction efficiency due
to hold-up.

Cheers!
Bob

Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today



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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 21:46:22 -0500
From: "Mike Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Quick force carbonation

I have had good results simply setting my regulator on the pressure listed on
the carbonation chart, attaching to the "in" fitting, laying the corny on its
side on the floor, in fitting up, and rocking the corny back and forth until
gas flow stops.  If you dont have major hearing loss, you should be able to
hear the flow in the regulator (if the room is quiet), or if you submerge the
"in" tube, you can hear the bubbles.   This usually takes about 30 min for a
medium carbonation (as for an ale) or 45 min for a higher carbonation.
After settling for an hour or two, and releasing the pressure on the corny,
set the serving pressure and  the beer is perfect.  Of course, drawing a pint
or two while it settles is fine,  just a bit hazy from the small amount of
yeast in my unfiltered but well fined ales.

Mike Maag, freezing in the Shennandoah Valley, VA. (my fridge compressor
heater comes on frequently, its much colder in the garage than in the fridge)



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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 07:15:13 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cider clearing.. how much?



Mike asked about how long to wait for ciders to clear.

Be patient!
For me it does take a lot longer to clear ciders.  I like to 
do it without fining agents.  I take 1 to 2 years!  Rack it
every 2 or 3 months.  If I take more than 1 year, it's laziness.

I did fine one that I eventually gave up on.

You can do it faster using fining agents like bentonite, sparkleoid.



=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:51:55 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Water Comments

Some comments for Colin in Guelph: Are the numbers you gave (HCO3 280 
ppm, Ca 100 ppm, Mg 35 ppm) as the ion or as calcium carbonate? In the 
case of the bicarb it doesn't make that much difference: 4.6 mEq/L if 
its the ion, 5.6 if it's as CaCO3. In either case, that's pretty 
alkaline water. The calcium value, OTOH, corresponds to 5 mEq/L if it's 
as the ion and only 2 if it's as CaCO3 IOW pretty hard in the former 
case and not very hard in the latter. For the Mg you'd have about 3 
mEq/L hardness if the 35 ppm is as the ion and only 0.7 if it's as 
CaCO3. Assuiming things are as the ions you'd then have a RA = 4.6 - (5 
+ 3/2)/3.5 = 2.74 mEq/L  or (137 ppm as CaCO3 if you prefer) which isn't 
too bad but would require  supplementation of metals to the extent 
3.5*2.74m = 9.6 mEq/L, to "neutralize". You would have to accept, thus, 
9.6 mEq/L of sulfate, chloride or a combination if   calcium salts are 
to be used (magnesium salts can be used as well but it requires 7 mEq of 
Mg to "neutralize" 1 mEq of RA as opposed to 3.5 for calcium).

If the numbers are ppm as CaCO3 your RA = 5.6 - ( 2 - .7/2)/3.5 = 4.9 
mEq/L  (246 ppm as CaCO3) and you'd have to use 3.5*4.9 = 17 mEq/L metal 
and thus pick up 17 mEq/L sufate and or chloride in the process. This is 
a bunch!

In either event, you proabably will be better off using higher kilned 
malts in order to obtain the acid required rather than relying on the 
calcium/magnesium/phytin reaction to provide it. A portion of crystal or 
caramel malt supplies a surprising amount of acid (and adds 
dimensionality to the beers as well). Another thing you may wish to try 
is boiling the water to remove the bicarbonate to the extent of the 
calcium present (i.e. the temporary hardness) or, by supplementation 
with lime (a somewhat trickier process done right) nearly all the 
bicarbonate. In either case the calcium must be restored to a reasonable 
level with gypsum or calcium chloride.

I'd stay away from phosphoric acid for pH adjustment. It will strip most 
of the calcium from the water. The best mineral acids to add are 
hydrochloric or sulfuric as their anions are anions typically found in 
water any way and have desireable properties with respect to, 
respectively, fullness and hops flavors, but I do not advocate using 
other than food grade (FCC) acids and these are not readily available to 
the home brewer (wheras food grade phosphoric is - it's fine for sparge 
water pH adjustment by the way).

For pH measurement a meter is the only reliable way to obtain repeatable 
readings accurate to the level required to really determine what's going 
on in the mash tun. But a pH meter is not a panacea - you must hand over 
quite a few $ for a good one, must calibrate frequently (at least once 
each day it is used, know how to interpret the readings and the vagaries 
to which they are subject, clean the electrode, protect it from physical 
damage and replace it every couple of years,

A.J.



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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 09:42:44 -0800
From: "L & K" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com>
Subject: RE: Feeding Horses Spent Grains

No problem feeding the horses the spent grains although I would not feed it
if there were hops mixed into the grain. i.e.. Mash Hopping. I'm not saying
that would be bad but it would be bad for some dogs so I'm not taking any
chances.

The ponies like the stuff so much that my wife takes the trouble to freeze
my grains in quart containers and she thaws one a day and feeds it with the
breakfast for the hoses it's like a treat. But then again I think she spoils
them with molasses too.

Layne Rossi, Campbell River, BC

L & K
wetpetznospam at oberon.ark.com
All incoming and outgoing email scanned by
Norton Antivirus updated daily.




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Date: 07 Dec 2002 09:55:44 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: where to get parts for march pumps?

>> Alan McKay writes:

AM> I need a new impellor post and possibly a new impellor for my
AM> March pump.  It's the 6144MM HIGH TEMP from Moving Brews who are
AM> unfortunately out of business (though oddly their website is 
AM> still there!)

AM> Where could I get these parts, and any idea what I can expect
AM> to pay for them?

Alan -

Not picking on you, but you just happened to trip over one of my pet
peeves.  In many newsgroups I frequent, people ask the same kind of
question, "I have a blort by XYZ Company, how can I get parts?"

I really don't see why people overlook the most obvious answer of all,
"Call the Manufacturer!".  They make the parts, they want to sell
them.  If they will not sell them to you directly, they will be more
than happy to refer you down the supplier chain so that you can
finally find someone who *will* sell them to you.  They are also very
happy to provide technical support to you.  Don't ignore the
manufacturer, they are your friend, believe it or not.

Can I ask a stupid question?  Why don't people ever think of doing
this?  It is so obvious to me, maybe I have some sort of blind spot.

regards,
dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen
'85 4runner    '86 4x4 PU


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Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 13:44:08 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Ayinger yeast, now available

Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> wrote from Chapel Hill, NC (now did 
the ice storm treat you, Marc?)

>Much like Jeff R. with his Ruddles yeast

Ridley's yeast, actually.

>I handed a semi-precious
>sample of the Ayinger yeast given to me by a non-Renner homebrewer over
>to Chris White at WhiteLabs.  This is now available as German Bock
>Yeast.

That is great news.  You say it is now available, but I think we have 
to wait until next September as it is a Platinum Series yeast.  From 
the White Labs Customer Club Newsletter - October 2002 listing the 
2003 Platinum yeasts:

>Sept/Oct	WLP833 - German Bock NEW!
>		WLP006 - Bedford British

Since it is no longer be available from YCKC, I was going to contact 
Chris to see if he would carry it.  I only wish he would call it 
Ayinger since it is a legendary yeast under that name here and in 
Australia.

I hope it sells well enough to become a regular yeast.  I'll bet it 
would if it were sold as Ayinger.

>   As many people have, I can attest to this being a great lager
>yeast.  I use it almost exclusively for lagers as I think it does as
>well in a CAP as a dunkles or a bock.

I'll second this.  It is my favorite lager yeast.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:35:58 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. was re: Ayinger yeast ... 

Marc Sedam notes ....

>Ayinger[...]WhiteLabs.  This is now available as German Bock 
>Yeast.
 ...

Glad to hear it - esp since Dan McConnel's isn't
available any longer. 

 ...
>I can also tell you that WhiteLabs' Zurich Lager Yeast is the 
>Samichlaus yeast 

I believe in "dancin' w/ the one wot brung ye", so I can't find
a negative word to say about Wyeast, but I have to admit
that WhiteLabs is producing some great yeasts and the
WL-tubes *usually*  kick if they are fresh enough. OTOH
Wyeast has been there for me for many years, produces
a quality product and continues to add new and interesting
yeasts to their portfolio.

It seems the yeast market is diluting as WL pulls up against
Wyeast in range and quality and several dry yeasts are
clearly good enough for serious brewing.  I wish 'em all well,
but I have serious doubts that all can survive in the HB market.
Obviously these places produce for commercial breweries, and
the big dry yeast companies have tiny costs involved in packing
yeast for the HB market.  It's packaging active wet yeast with
short shelf-life for the HB market that is a marginal.  My local
HB shop isn't so keen on WL.  It's a high volume shop, but they
have a lot of WLtubes go out-of-date and they don't even carry
the full list.  I suspect WLs dating spec is tighter than Wyeast ,
which is a plus for the brewer but a loss for the brewshop.

I know there are/have-been other wet-yeast vendors but these
guys seem to small and nitchy or attached to a shop like
Williams that prefers to package their own brands.   Wyeast
and WhiteLabs seem to me to be the two places that are facing
the forces of this tiny HB wet-yeast market head-on.

Anyone care to comment on their experience wrt Wyeast vs
WhiteLabs products ?   Range, quality ...  If you had to live
with only one which would it be ?  That may be a question
the marketplace answers soon.

 -S






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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 15:13:01 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: restricted recirculation/is my horse ruined ?

>Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au> writes from Western Australia:
>
>>1. If your false bottom is more than 15mm above the bottom of the tun you
>>will always have trouble as this causes a pressure differential that
>>compacts your mash.
>
>Never say always.  You are just inviting some smart a$$ to disagree.

You rang ?

>My false bottom is 1.25 in (32 mm) off the bottom and I have no
>trouble [...]

Commercial false bottoms(FB) are around 50mm/2 inches off the bottom.

>I'm not sure what pressure differential you are speaking of.  Can you
>elaborate, and say how it is greater with a higher false bottom?

You do need to be careful about pressure differences between the FB and
above but I don't see the relation to a higher FB height either.   Where is
John Palmer when we need a more qualified a$$   ;^)

When you have a central drain from under the FB the flow pattern obviously
draws more from the area around the drain and less from farther away and
there are some corresponding differences in pressure as the variable flow
rates pass thru the restrictive grist bed.  On commercial tuns where the
dimensions are much larger and the problem much worse they add many drain
tubes over the whole bottom and lead these to a common grant chamber so the
pressure is more equalized at the drains and the runoff pattern more
uniform.   If they didn't then most of the sparge water would flow through
the central portion of grist bed.  This is a question for JohnP really, but
my hunch is that a higher FB would reduce the unevenness of flow but only a
little.

There are many entries in the HBD archives about RIMS systems which require
thinner mashes and/or very slow pumping rates to prevent mash compacting
above the FB.  Again the low pressure under the FB caused by pumping is the
culprit.  Even on gravity drain systems if the siphon outlet us sufficiently
far below the FB then you can develop excessively low pressure under the
plate and ...

Some commercial rake systems control the rake depth automatically using
manometer readings from below the plate.  They rake progressively deeper
will the pressure differential drops 'low enough'.

On a related topic I recently read in an HB publication that grist beds
should be kept under 4 inches for good flow ... HOGWASH.   I lauter through
12 inches of grist  w/o incident regularly.  I think a lot of newbie
all-grainers miss the point when they look toward adding screens or filters
on the outlet side.    The grist bed *IS* the filter and the false bottom is
just a porous support for the gristbed to build upon.   You don't have
usably clear wort when grist no longer appears - that's just the beginning.
You should recirculate (vorlauf) till the cloudiness diminishes.

- --

Spent grist are often fed to cattle but recommendations are to keep the
amount below some small percentage of diet (10% as I recall).  Of course
cattle are vastly more adept at digesting fiber/cellulose than horses
because of their 'plumbing'.

Please remember that altho' grist may taste sweet from residual wort sugars,
that mashing/lautering has removed 90+% of the calories and most of the
nutrients.  You are feeding your horses sweetened indigestible fiber and
tho' it won't hurt a well fed horse with a decent diet I can't see that you
are doing it any favors either.  Maybe spent grist will remove the
'restricted circulation' in the horse's GI tract but I doubt it's a
commendable fodder.

Other bad (IMO) ideas are feeding spent grist to wild birds some of which
can be fooled & harmed by its lack of calories.  Putting spent grist in
bread - the Metamucil loaf - is another example of homebrewers being too
cheap to use a compost heap.  If you like whole grain in bread (and I do)
then steep some cracked barley, wheat, rye, or malt and add the whole thing.
Eating indigestible fiber with carbs and nutrients removed is perverse
frugality - may as well add rice hulls to bread.

 -S




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Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 17:57:41 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Parts for March Pumps

IN HBD #4113, Alan McKay asked about getting parts for March 
pumps.  Everything you need to know can be found on the March website, 
http://www.marchpump.com/ .  If you need a parts list, click on "Pump 
Documents".  Then select "North American Distributors" for the location of 
the dealer nearest you.

Dave Towson
Bel Air, MD



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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:22:32 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads at msn.com>
Subject: 

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:27:06 -0600
"Mark Linton" <cryptcl at earthlink.net> wrote:
Subject: Diacetyl rest question

HI Mark:
Usually, the Diacetyl rest is at the end 
of the primary fermentation for at least 24 hours.
Brewers check the gravity daily and when almost
we keep the temperature at the last setting for
another 24 hours, than cooling on.
>From my experience in Homebrewing, I would consider your
fermentation as finished and would start the Diacetyl rest
Fred Scheer
Nashville, TN


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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:44:01 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads at msn.com>
Subject: amount of mash in water

Hi fellow brewers:
We just discussed with some of our MusicCityHomebrew
club members the amount of water used for mash in 
and the amount of sparge water.
Can someone post the formula for 5 and 1o gal
finished wort brews?
Thanks,
Fred


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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:22:33 -0800 (PST)
From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: clearing cider


Mike
Barkhamsted asked how long his cider would take to
clear  - and while I don't have the answer to that one
(sorry Mike !) I can tell you how I make my cider
crystal clear - I use apple juice (Motts or
store-brand and add 1 can per gallon of liquid apple
juice concentrate (get whichever is on sale - this
should be located near the regular apple juice in the
grocery store) - I pour this on top of the yeast
sediment from my last homebrew after racking to the
secondary or bottling bucket and in 2 weeks I have
some really potent hard cider that is ready to bottle
 - 2 weeks after that ( I use 1/2 - 3/4 cup of dextrose
to prime) I have crystal clear - carbonated "scrumpy" 
 - watch out however, the carbonation continues to
increase and while I have never had any bottle bombs,
I have had gushers (using the 3/4 cup) after 2 months.
 - easy-easy recipe for scrumpy - wine cooler-like
cider which the girls will drink.

=====
BIBIDI !
        Brew It Bottle It Drink It 
       Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing
        Bainbridge, PA,  U.S.A.



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Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 05:48:04 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re:brewing as a career

Bill Wible posts a long and rather negative view of professional brewing as
a career and tho' I agree with the factual content there is something very
wrong about the viewpoint.

Yes pro-brewing is typically low paying and a lot of work.   In that respect
it's a lot like homebrewing where you spend $15 on materials and invest $300
of labor to make $100 worth of beer.   When Bill implies that it's
pointless, thankless drudgery tho' I have to disagree.  Just like HBing - if
you love the process and take pride in the product it can be a great thing.
I know two pro-brewers who left clearly more lucrative jobs to brew and both
seem happy as clams (both *excellent* brewers btw).  The biggest
frustrations they express to me is their inability to brew specialty beers
that management don't support.

Is it low paying - generally yes,  and anyone looking for a high paying low
risk career should certainly look elsewhere.   OTOH I think Jim Koch at
Boston Beer has $17M in personal stock and a high 6 figure salary.   The
nice thing about capitalism is that it's possible to get such a reward for
something as simple as a well hopped lager (the downside is that all rewards
are available on a pre-tax basis only).    JK isn't 17 times smarter or
harder working than the average person so yes  - there is still another
million$ out there for the next brewer-entrepreneur with a decent idea.

One factual point where I do disagree w/Bill is in the calculation of $3mill
as vastly underfunded.

>We had one brewery here in
>Phila who started on a shoestring budget of 3 million
>dollars and said they never had enough money from day 1.

That sounds like a brewPUB not a brewery.  The high initial outlay for the
food/retail/location part of the business drives costs through the roof.   A
'B-market' MacDonald's requires over $1mill of capital from startup to
profit.   If you tack on higher risk and the capital & expensive space to
add on a brewery $3mill is about right for a brewpub.   Despite this we've
all seen successful shoestring operations as in smalltown  Colorado and
Oregon that never saw even $0.5mill of startup money.  A Microbrewery
(non-brewpub, no retail) has vastly lower financial reqs and better margins.
As Bill says marketing & distributing  the brewpub product is a bitch, but
the costs, margins, business model, growth potential and growth limits seem
better than for a brewpub.

 -S




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Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 03:19:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Tighe <steve_tighe at yahoo.com>
Subject: Best Propane Burner?

Hello Brewers,

Well I think I'm about *this close* to picking up the
right brew kettle to brew 5-gallon all-grain, and step
up from partial mash on the kitchen stove. Once I've
got the brew pot I'll need a propane burner to heat it
up. I'm just curious what the latest wisdom is on the
best-value burner around these days.

I figure I'll want at least 125+KBtu, as I may one day
want to do 10 gal with the thing. I tried poking
around the HBD archives, but may not have come up
w/the right keywords.

Anyhow, what's out there these days? Are all the
fryers with the aluminum pots and the *ahem* "high-BTU
burners" appropriate? The manufacturers don't seem to
want to tell me what "high-BTU" means on the
packaging, so I'm skeptical. How about the stuff
available on the various online homebrew store sites,
e.g. StPat's etc.? I'd like to get the best value I
can while getting something that'll have the power I
need and be reasonably durable.

I'd appreciate the  collective's input on this pretty
big decision.
Thanks,
Steve Tighe in Berkely CA



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Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:13:38 -0500
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Keg Lost it's Top!

I just cleaned a pin type soda keg, and the top came loose, completely off!
Any ideas for a good adhesive to bond it back on with?  Thanks,

         Dave, the Hop Head from BIER
         [396,89.1] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 23:02:58 -0500
From: "Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fruit Flies through the air-lock

I recently brewed a Fat Tyre cloan, and had it in secondary for almost =
two months. Today I bottled it, and after I was finished I noticed 5-10 =
fruit flies in the bottom of the bucket. Does anyone know how they make =
it through an air lock? Maybe I need to start putting mesh around the =
air lock so the fruit flies can't get in? I'm stumped. Should I through =
the beer out?
Thanks
 -Gil Milone



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---