HOMEBREW Digest #4114 Mon 09 December 2002

[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]

		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

  horseys are your freind ("Dave Sapsis")
  False Bottom Elevation ("Bob Sutton")
  Quick force carbonation ("Mike Maag")
  Cider clearing.. how much? (LJ Vitt)
  Water Comments (AJ)
  RE: Feeding Horses Spent Grains ("L & K")
  Re: where to get parts for march pumps? (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Ayinger yeast, now available (Jeff Renner)
  yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. was re: Ayinger yeast ... ("Steve Alexander")
  restricted recirculation/is my horse ruined ? ("Steve Alexander")
  Parts for March Pumps (David Towson)
   ("Fred Scheer")
  amount of mash in water ("Fred Scheer")
  clearing cider (carlos benitez)
  re:brewing as a career ("Steve Alexander")
  Best Propane Burner? (Steve Tighe)
  Keg Lost it's Top! ("Dave and Joan King")
  Fruit Flies through the air-lock ("Gilbert Milone II")

* * Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! * http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:59:06 -0800 From: "Dave Sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net> Subject: horseys are your freind Bernd asks: >Is it possible to feed spent brewing grains to horses >(in moderation of course)? I was wondering if it was >unhealthy/bad/ or otherwise not good. Reminds me of one of my fondest old brewing stories: Back in the late 80's I spent three field seasons in Eastern Oregon doing research at a small National Monument. I lived in a 16 ft trailer that was located in the middle of a 3 acre corral that was home to two horses, Wil and 'Lil (Ol Wilber was an 'onry old feller -- bit me once). Anyways, I brewed in that damn little trailer, ten million black flies and all. Would feed the spents to the horses who wouldn't even wait for the stuff to cool off before munching (just picture a horse's jaws all a'movin and steam coming out...). Those horses caught on right fast. Soon as I'd get the wort up to a boil and the aromas got out, they'd take to coming over to the trailer, whinnying and bumpin the damn thing till it got to swayin side to side. Had to shut the door to keep 'em from trying to walk on in. Once I'd emerge from the trailer with my ice chest full of spents they'd follow right over to where I'd dump it out, and proceed to eat it -- still hot. Lots of protein and a bit of carb, along with a good deal of fiber. Quite healthy (in moderation) but no doubt tough on the tongue. cheers, - --dave, sacramento Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:10:11 -0500 From: "Bob Sutton" <Bob at homebrew.com> Subject: False Bottom Elevation Reuben Filsell stated... "If your false bottom is more than 15mm above the bottom of the tun you will always have trouble as this causes a pressure differential that compacts your mash." Reuben you've got to explain this one... High circulation rates can lead to compaction, but having your false bottom too far off the bottom of the tun won't - though it can increase the circulation volume required to achieve runoff clarity, and in some small measure reduce extraction efficiency due to hold-up. Cheers! Bob Fruit Fly Brewhaus Yesterdays' Technology Today Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 21:46:22 -0500 From: "Mike Maag" <maagm at rica.net> Subject: Quick force carbonation I have had good results simply setting my regulator on the pressure listed on the carbonation chart, attaching to the "in" fitting, laying the corny on its side on the floor, in fitting up, and rocking the corny back and forth until gas flow stops. If you dont have major hearing loss, you should be able to hear the flow in the regulator (if the room is quiet), or if you submerge the "in" tube, you can hear the bubbles. This usually takes about 30 min for a medium carbonation (as for an ale) or 45 min for a higher carbonation. After settling for an hour or two, and releasing the pressure on the corny, set the serving pressure and the beer is perfect. Of course, drawing a pint or two while it settles is fine, just a bit hazy from the small amount of yeast in my unfiltered but well fined ales. Mike Maag, freezing in the Shennandoah Valley, VA. (my fridge compressor heater comes on frequently, its much colder in the garage than in the fridge) Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 07:15:13 -0800 (PST) From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com> Subject: Cider clearing.. how much? Mike asked about how long to wait for ciders to clear. Be patient! For me it does take a lot longer to clear ciders. I like to do it without fining agents. I take 1 to 2 years! Rack it every 2 or 3 months. If I take more than 1 year, it's laziness. I did fine one that I eventually gave up on. You can do it faster using fining agents like bentonite, sparkleoid. ===== Leo Vitt Rochester MN Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:51:55 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Water Comments Some comments for Colin in Guelph: Are the numbers you gave (HCO3 280 ppm, Ca 100 ppm, Mg 35 ppm) as the ion or as calcium carbonate? In the case of the bicarb it doesn't make that much difference: 4.6 mEq/L if its the ion, 5.6 if it's as CaCO3. In either case, that's pretty alkaline water. The calcium value, OTOH, corresponds to 5 mEq/L if it's as the ion and only 2 if it's as CaCO3 IOW pretty hard in the former case and not very hard in the latter. For the Mg you'd have about 3 mEq/L hardness if the 35 ppm is as the ion and only 0.7 if it's as CaCO3. Assuiming things are as the ions you'd then have a RA = 4.6 - (5 + 3/2)/3.5 = 2.74 mEq/L or (137 ppm as CaCO3 if you prefer) which isn't too bad but would require supplementation of metals to the extent 3.5*2.74m = 9.6 mEq/L, to "neutralize". You would have to accept, thus, 9.6 mEq/L of sulfate, chloride or a combination if calcium salts are to be used (magnesium salts can be used as well but it requires 7 mEq of Mg to "neutralize" 1 mEq of RA as opposed to 3.5 for calcium). If the numbers are ppm as CaCO3 your RA = 5.6 - ( 2 - .7/2)/3.5 = 4.9 mEq/L (246 ppm as CaCO3) and you'd have to use 3.5*4.9 = 17 mEq/L metal and thus pick up 17 mEq/L sufate and or chloride in the process. This is a bunch! In either event, you proabably will be better off using higher kilned malts in order to obtain the acid required rather than relying on the calcium/magnesium/phytin reaction to provide it. A portion of crystal or caramel malt supplies a surprising amount of acid (and adds dimensionality to the beers as well). Another thing you may wish to try is boiling the water to remove the bicarbonate to the extent of the calcium present (i.e. the temporary hardness) or, by supplementation with lime (a somewhat trickier process done right) nearly all the bicarbonate. In either case the calcium must be restored to a reasonable level with gypsum or calcium chloride. I'd stay away from phosphoric acid for pH adjustment. It will strip most of the calcium from the water. The best mineral acids to add are hydrochloric or sulfuric as their anions are anions typically found in water any way and have desireable properties with respect to, respectively, fullness and hops flavors, but I do not advocate using other than food grade (FCC) acids and these are not readily available to the home brewer (wheras food grade phosphoric is - it's fine for sparge water pH adjustment by the way). For pH measurement a meter is the only reliable way to obtain repeatable readings accurate to the level required to really determine what's going on in the mash tun. But a pH meter is not a panacea - you must hand over quite a few $ for a good one, must calibrate frequently (at least once each day it is used, know how to interpret the readings and the vagaries to which they are subject, clean the electrode, protect it from physical damage and replace it every couple of years, A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 09:42:44 -0800 From: "L & K" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com> Subject: RE: Feeding Horses Spent Grains No problem feeding the horses the spent grains although I would not feed it if there were hops mixed into the grain. i.e.. Mash Hopping. I'm not saying that would be bad but it would be bad for some dogs so I'm not taking any chances. The ponies like the stuff so much that my wife takes the trouble to freeze my grains in quart containers and she thaws one a day and feeds it with the breakfast for the hoses it's like a treat. But then again I think she spoils them with molasses too. Layne Rossi, Campbell River, BC L & K wetpetznospam at oberon.ark.com All incoming and outgoing email scanned by Norton Antivirus updated daily. Return to table of contents
Date: 07 Dec 2002 09:55:44 -0800 From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com> Subject: Re: where to get parts for march pumps? >> Alan McKay writes: AM> I need a new impellor post and possibly a new impellor for my AM> March pump. It's the 6144MM HIGH TEMP from Moving Brews who are AM> unfortunately out of business (though oddly their website is AM> still there!) AM> Where could I get these parts, and any idea what I can expect AM> to pay for them? Alan - Not picking on you, but you just happened to trip over one of my pet peeves. In many newsgroups I frequent, people ask the same kind of question, "I have a blort by XYZ Company, how can I get parts?" I really don't see why people overlook the most obvious answer of all, "Call the Manufacturer!". They make the parts, they want to sell them. If they will not sell them to you directly, they will be more than happy to refer you down the supplier chain so that you can finally find someone who *will* sell them to you. They are also very happy to provide technical support to you. Don't ignore the manufacturer, they are your friend, believe it or not. Can I ask a stupid question? Why don't people ever think of doing this? It is so obvious to me, maybe I have some sort of blind spot. regards, dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen '85 4runner '86 4x4 PU Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 13:44:08 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Ayinger yeast, now available Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> wrote from Chapel Hill, NC (now did the ice storm treat you, Marc?) >Much like Jeff R. with his Ruddles yeast Ridley's yeast, actually. >I handed a semi-precious >sample of the Ayinger yeast given to me by a non-Renner homebrewer over >to Chris White at WhiteLabs. This is now available as German Bock >Yeast. That is great news. You say it is now available, but I think we have to wait until next September as it is a Platinum Series yeast. From the White Labs Customer Club Newsletter - October 2002 listing the 2003 Platinum yeasts: >Sept/Oct WLP833 - German Bock NEW! > WLP006 - Bedford British Since it is no longer be available from YCKC, I was going to contact Chris to see if he would carry it. I only wish he would call it Ayinger since it is a legendary yeast under that name here and in Australia. I hope it sells well enough to become a regular yeast. I'll bet it would if it were sold as Ayinger. > As many people have, I can attest to this being a great lager >yeast. I use it almost exclusively for lagers as I think it does as >well in a CAP as a dunkles or a bock. I'll second this. It is my favorite lager yeast. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:35:58 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net> Subject: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. was re: Ayinger yeast ... Marc Sedam notes .... >Ayinger[...]WhiteLabs. This is now available as German Bock >Yeast. ... Glad to hear it - esp since Dan McConnel's isn't available any longer. ... >I can also tell you that WhiteLabs' Zurich Lager Yeast is the >Samichlaus yeast I believe in "dancin' w/ the one wot brung ye", so I can't find a negative word to say about Wyeast, but I have to admit that WhiteLabs is producing some great yeasts and the WL-tubes *usually* kick if they are fresh enough. OTOH Wyeast has been there for me for many years, produces a quality product and continues to add new and interesting yeasts to their portfolio. It seems the yeast market is diluting as WL pulls up against Wyeast in range and quality and several dry yeasts are clearly good enough for serious brewing. I wish 'em all well, but I have serious doubts that all can survive in the HB market. Obviously these places produce for commercial breweries, and the big dry yeast companies have tiny costs involved in packing yeast for the HB market. It's packaging active wet yeast with short shelf-life for the HB market that is a marginal. My local HB shop isn't so keen on WL. It's a high volume shop, but they have a lot of WLtubes go out-of-date and they don't even carry the full list. I suspect WLs dating spec is tighter than Wyeast , which is a plus for the brewer but a loss for the brewshop. I know there are/have-been other wet-yeast vendors but these guys seem to small and nitchy or attached to a shop like Williams that prefers to package their own brands. Wyeast and WhiteLabs seem to me to be the two places that are facing the forces of this tiny HB wet-yeast market head-on. Anyone care to comment on their experience wrt Wyeast vs WhiteLabs products ? Range, quality ... If you had to live with only one which would it be ? That may be a question the marketplace answers soon. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 15:13:01 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net> Subject: restricted recirculation/is my horse ruined ? >Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au> writes from Western Australia: > >>1. If your false bottom is more than 15mm above the bottom of the tun you >>will always have trouble as this causes a pressure differential that >>compacts your mash. > >Never say always. You are just inviting some smart a$$ to disagree. You rang ? >My false bottom is 1.25 in (32 mm) off the bottom and I have no >trouble [...] Commercial false bottoms(FB) are around 50mm/2 inches off the bottom. >I'm not sure what pressure differential you are speaking of. Can you >elaborate, and say how it is greater with a higher false bottom? You do need to be careful about pressure differences between the FB and above but I don't see the relation to a higher FB height either. Where is John Palmer when we need a more qualified a$$ ;^) When you have a central drain from under the FB the flow pattern obviously draws more from the area around the drain and less from farther away and there are some corresponding differences in pressure as the variable flow rates pass thru the restrictive grist bed. On commercial tuns where the dimensions are much larger and the problem much worse they add many drain tubes over the whole bottom and lead these to a common grant chamber so the pressure is more equalized at the drains and the runoff pattern more uniform. If they didn't then most of the sparge water would flow through the central portion of grist bed. This is a question for JohnP really, but my hunch is that a higher FB would reduce the unevenness of flow but only a little. There are many entries in the HBD archives about RIMS systems which require thinner mashes and/or very slow pumping rates to prevent mash compacting above the FB. Again the low pressure under the FB caused by pumping is the culprit. Even on gravity drain systems if the siphon outlet us sufficiently far below the FB then you can develop excessively low pressure under the plate and ... Some commercial rake systems control the rake depth automatically using manometer readings from below the plate. They rake progressively deeper will the pressure differential drops 'low enough'. On a related topic I recently read in an HB publication that grist beds should be kept under 4 inches for good flow ... HOGWASH. I lauter through 12 inches of grist w/o incident regularly. I think a lot of newbie all-grainers miss the point when they look toward adding screens or filters on the outlet side. The grist bed *IS* the filter and the false bottom is just a porous support for the gristbed to build upon. You don't have usably clear wort when grist no longer appears - that's just the beginning. You should recirculate (vorlauf) till the cloudiness diminishes. - -- Spent grist are often fed to cattle but recommendations are to keep the amount below some small percentage of diet (10% as I recall). Of course cattle are vastly more adept at digesting fiber/cellulose than horses because of their 'plumbing'. Please remember that altho' grist may taste sweet from residual wort sugars, that mashing/lautering has removed 90+% of the calories and most of the nutrients. You are feeding your horses sweetened indigestible fiber and tho' it won't hurt a well fed horse with a decent diet I can't see that you are doing it any favors either. Maybe spent grist will remove the 'restricted circulation' in the horse's GI tract but I doubt it's a commendable fodder. Other bad (IMO) ideas are feeding spent grist to wild birds some of which can be fooled & harmed by its lack of calories. Putting spent grist in bread - the Metamucil loaf - is another example of homebrewers being too cheap to use a compost heap. If you like whole grain in bread (and I do) then steep some cracked barley, wheat, rye, or malt and add the whole thing. Eating indigestible fiber with carbs and nutrients removed is perverse frugality - may as well add rice hulls to bread. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 17:57:41 -0500 From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net> Subject: Parts for March Pumps IN HBD #4113, Alan McKay asked about getting parts for March pumps. Everything you need to know can be found on the March website, http://www.marchpump.com/ . If you need a parts list, click on "Pump Documents". Then select "North American Distributors" for the location of the dealer nearest you. Dave Towson Bel Air, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:22:32 -0600 From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads at msn.com> Subject: Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:27:06 -0600 "Mark Linton" <cryptcl at earthlink.net> wrote: Subject: Diacetyl rest question HI Mark: Usually, the Diacetyl rest is at the end of the primary fermentation for at least 24 hours. Brewers check the gravity daily and when almost we keep the temperature at the last setting for another 24 hours, than cooling on. >From my experience in Homebrewing, I would consider your fermentation as finished and would start the Diacetyl rest Fred Scheer Nashville, TN Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:44:01 -0600 From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads at msn.com> Subject: amount of mash in water Hi fellow brewers: We just discussed with some of our MusicCityHomebrew club members the amount of water used for mash in and the amount of sparge water. Can someone post the formula for 5 and 1o gal finished wort brews? Thanks, Fred Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:22:33 -0800 (PST) From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com> Subject: clearing cider Mike Barkhamsted asked how long his cider would take to clear - and while I don't have the answer to that one (sorry Mike !) I can tell you how I make my cider crystal clear - I use apple juice (Motts or store-brand and add 1 can per gallon of liquid apple juice concentrate (get whichever is on sale - this should be located near the regular apple juice in the grocery store) - I pour this on top of the yeast sediment from my last homebrew after racking to the secondary or bottling bucket and in 2 weeks I have some really potent hard cider that is ready to bottle - 2 weeks after that ( I use 1/2 - 3/4 cup of dextrose to prime) I have crystal clear - carbonated "scrumpy" - watch out however, the carbonation continues to increase and while I have never had any bottle bombs, I have had gushers (using the 3/4 cup) after 2 months. - easy-easy recipe for scrumpy - wine cooler-like cider which the girls will drink. ===== BIBIDI ! Brew It Bottle It Drink It Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing Bainbridge, PA, U.S.A. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 05:48:04 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re:brewing as a career Bill Wible posts a long and rather negative view of professional brewing as a career and tho' I agree with the factual content there is something very wrong about the viewpoint. Yes pro-brewing is typically low paying and a lot of work. In that respect it's a lot like homebrewing where you spend $15 on materials and invest $300 of labor to make $100 worth of beer. When Bill implies that it's pointless, thankless drudgery tho' I have to disagree. Just like HBing - if you love the process and take pride in the product it can be a great thing. I know two pro-brewers who left clearly more lucrative jobs to brew and both seem happy as clams (both *excellent* brewers btw). The biggest frustrations they express to me is their inability to brew specialty beers that management don't support. Is it low paying - generally yes, and anyone looking for a high paying low risk career should certainly look elsewhere. OTOH I think Jim Koch at Boston Beer has $17M in personal stock and a high 6 figure salary. The nice thing about capitalism is that it's possible to get such a reward for something as simple as a well hopped lager (the downside is that all rewards are available on a pre-tax basis only). JK isn't 17 times smarter or harder working than the average person so yes - there is still another million$ out there for the next brewer-entrepreneur with a decent idea. One factual point where I do disagree w/Bill is in the calculation of $3mill as vastly underfunded. >We had one brewery here in >Phila who started on a shoestring budget of 3 million >dollars and said they never had enough money from day 1. That sounds like a brewPUB not a brewery. The high initial outlay for the food/retail/location part of the business drives costs through the roof. A 'B-market' MacDonald's requires over $1mill of capital from startup to profit. If you tack on higher risk and the capital & expensive space to add on a brewery $3mill is about right for a brewpub. Despite this we've all seen successful shoestring operations as in smalltown Colorado and Oregon that never saw even $0.5mill of startup money. A Microbrewery (non-brewpub, no retail) has vastly lower financial reqs and better margins. As Bill says marketing & distributing the brewpub product is a bitch, but the costs, margins, business model, growth potential and growth limits seem better than for a brewpub. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 03:19:18 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Tighe <steve_tighe at yahoo.com> Subject: Best Propane Burner? Hello Brewers, Well I think I'm about *this close* to picking up the right brew kettle to brew 5-gallon all-grain, and step up from partial mash on the kitchen stove. Once I've got the brew pot I'll need a propane burner to heat it up. I'm just curious what the latest wisdom is on the best-value burner around these days. I figure I'll want at least 125+KBtu, as I may one day want to do 10 gal with the thing. I tried poking around the HBD archives, but may not have come up w/the right keywords. Anyhow, what's out there these days? Are all the fryers with the aluminum pots and the *ahem* "high-BTU burners" appropriate? The manufacturers don't seem to want to tell me what "high-BTU" means on the packaging, so I'm skeptical. How about the stuff available on the various online homebrew store sites, e.g. StPat's etc.? I'd like to get the best value I can while getting something that'll have the power I need and be reasonably durable. I'd appreciate the collective's input on this pretty big decision. Thanks, Steve Tighe in Berkely CA Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:13:38 -0500 From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com> Subject: Keg Lost it's Top! I just cleaned a pin type soda keg, and the top came loose, completely off! Any ideas for a good adhesive to bond it back on with? Thanks, Dave, the Hop Head from BIER [396,89.1] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 23:02:58 -0500 From: "Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com> Subject: Fruit Flies through the air-lock I recently brewed a Fat Tyre cloan, and had it in secondary for almost = two months. Today I bottled it, and after I was finished I noticed 5-10 = fruit flies in the bottom of the bucket. Does anyone know how they make = it through an air lock? Maybe I need to start putting mesh around the = air lock so the fruit flies can't get in? I'm stumped. Should I through = the beer out? Thanks -Gil Milone Return to table of contents
[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]
HTML-ized on 12/09/02, by HBD2HTML v1.2 by KFL
webmaster at hbd.org, KFL, 10/9/96