HOMEBREW Digest #4163 Wed 05 February 2003


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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Speed of Sound in CO2 ("Darwin Airola")
  Chest Freezer Versus Refrigerator for Beer Cooling ("Darwin Airola")
  Re: Man (Todd Goodman)
  Grounding RIMS Heater element (FRASERJ)
  RE: Home made mill (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: Setting the grain bed (Jeff Berton)
  Re: two things (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: two things (Jeff Renner)
  RE: competition ethics (Brian Lundeen)
  Romulan Ale/Speed of sound in CO2 (Bill Wible)
  Re: RIMS water heater element grounding (hollen)
  Question on Sanyo Kegerator ("Mark Nelson")
  Re:  Removing Organic Deposits from Plastic Parts (hollen)
  Re: RIMS water heater element grounding ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: temperature (tun) ("Pete Calinski")
  Re:Home made mill ("Pete Calinski")
  Pump parts cost (David Towson)
  re: Home made mill (Rama Roberts)
  Re; RIMS water heater element grounding (David Towson)
  RE: Relax and have a homebrew ("Mike Sharp")
  culturing Lactobacillus delbruckii (Rama Roberts)
  Original Yeast Sources (Jason Poll)
  Re: temperature (tun) (David Towson)
  84%! (Teresa Knezek)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:31:37 -0600 From: "Darwin Airola" <Darwin at hypergalaxy.net> Subject: RE: Speed of Sound in CO2 To: Andrew Nix and Steve Alexander, Thanks for your replies! I really do appreciate your assistance! It looks like we all came up with about the same answer. However, I was only going by memory from my one high school chemistry class, which I took a long, long time ago, and I would really like to read up on the theories that you based your solutions on... Thus, Andrew, could you please send me the titles, authors, etc. for one or more good references that derive the speed of sound in an ideal gas via your specific heat method (preferably one that derives the result from first principles)? Steve, could you please send me the information for one or more references on your speed of sound = sqrt(gamma * gas pressure / gas density) equation (preferably one that derives the result from first principles)? If you have any information that describes how and why these equations break down and derives how to model second, third, etc. order effects, I would really appreciate it if you would forward those to me as well! I would greatly appreciate your continued assistance with this matter! Regarding what I am doing: My consulting company (HyperGalaxy, Inc.) is working on a rather unusual but very fun project that involves beer kegs... Take care, Darwin - --- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the exclusive and confidential use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute or take action in reliance upon this message. If you have received this in error, please notify us immediately by return email and promptly delete this message and its attachments from your computer system. We do not waive work product privilege by the transmission of this message. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:31:37 -0600 From: "Darwin Airola" <Darwin at hypergalaxy.net> Subject: Chest Freezer Versus Refrigerator for Beer Cooling Hello, again! Is there any advantage to using a freezer as opposed to a refrigerator for beer cooling (or vice versa)? Is not beer at a bar kept at around 36 degrees Fahrenheit? Also, if a chest freezer is used, is there a way to avoid the cooling and condenser coils when drilling holes in the thing? Take care, Darwin - --- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the exclusive and confidential use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute or take action in reliance upon this message. If you have received this in error, please notify us immediately by return email and promptly delete this message and its attachments from your computer system. We do not waive work product privilege by the transmission of this message. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:38:36 -0500 From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net> Subject: Re: Man > In HBD #4162 "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com> wrote: [SNIP] > I have to wait until my Man Room ( that's what my wife calls my new workshop) Ha, my wife calls my brewing and reloading area "your cave." The architect knew though, it's a "Brewing Kitchen" and "Cold Storage" on the plans. :-) Todd Almost Brewing Again in Westford, MA [630.3, 84 Apparent Rennerian] Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:46:56 -0500 From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com Subject: Grounding RIMS Heater element I simply grounded mine to the heater chamber, and I know it works because I accidentally shorted to the heater chamber! Don't ask...... :( Fortunately no one was hurt. If you are concerned about the Teflon tape preventing a contact between the element and the chamber, go buy a cheap voltmeter, they often have a mode that determines resistance. Screw your elements in and then test the resistance between the chamber and the element nut. If its zero, then you can happily ground on the chamber! The following link shows the bare copper wire in the middle of the chamber, attached via a hose clamp: http://rims-brewing.tripod.com/rims_brewing_rims_unit_pic_4.htm Happy brewing John M. Fraser Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 05:08:51 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Home made mill I'm in the middle of making my own. So far so good, my test run last night proved to me that the stone would draw grain, I had some (ok, most) of the malt escaping along the sides of the stone, so I need to cut some new boards. if you have access to some tools. (lathe being the most important) or can scrounge up a roller, give it a try. I fashioned my stone out of quikcrete (not the fast setting stuff) and sifted the rocks out to give me a full cement stone. I ran a 1/2 steel rod (with perpendicular pins ran through it to grip the cement) and used a 5" wide by 5" dia plastic mold to set the cement (one of those CD-R spindles) then I used a lathe with a masonry bit to true up the sides and surface. I ended up with a knurled finish and a true stone. The rest is just details. It crushes against an adjustable aluminum plate. We'll see how it turns out, the real test will be the beer I brew with it. mike Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:20:26 -0500 From: Jeff Berton <jeff344 at galaxy.lerc.nasa.gov> Subject: RE: Setting the grain bed Steve Alexander wrote: > Where you live Bill it's lucky you didn't get a hydrazine burn at the golf > course ! A shuttle joke? Already? I'd have expected better taste from you, Steve. Jeff Berton Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 06:31:00 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: two things Well, I hate to say it, but you're thinking about this mushroom thing completely wrong headed. I don't think that mushrooms would have the capacity to ferment anything, unless they carried yeasts (likely) just like apples and grapes. Yeast is airborne. If you set an agar plate nearly anywhere in the world and then incubate it at room temp, you will have cultured yeasts and mold, just from the wee beasties settling on the plate. The first fermentations (in most parts of the world) was probably honey. Possibly honey in an old tree that collected rainwater and fermented naturally. Grapes and apples (not to mention any other fruit) have their own yeasts. The french still largely ferment using the natural organisms and not pure cultures. As for beer, the first beers (and still many belgian beers) are open air fermented are naturally innoculated with natural yeasts. The modern Strains we have, are merely these natural organisms cultured with modern knowledge of microbiology. Microbiology didn't create them, we merely isolate and culture them. Wood harbors yeasts, so the magic paddles and barrels were thought to be magic because they harbored the appropriate yeasts (and proabably lacto and aceto bacterias to name a few). It was magic until science identified yeast as the power behind fermentation, quite recently. Sorry this was windy. mike Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:55:07 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: two things "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com> is pondering the origin of life, or at least of yeast: >1st a curios question that will no doubt be hard to answer. Where do you >suppose the first yeast came from? I believe that yeast is classified as a >fungi, right? So does that mean the first brewers threw in different >mushrooms to the wort in order to ferment? Which leads me to another >question. How many people do you suppose died tying that first beer made >with poison mushrooms? How many times would you have to do that until they >found a no-toxic mushroom? ok that's just silly but really does any body >know? I have read that the family's passed down magic barrels, or paddles? >But where do you suppose it started with all these different strains we >have..............hmmmmmmmmm The fungi is a huge group of organisms - at least a phylum or even a separate kingdom. The fact that yeast and mushrooms are both in that huge group does not mean they are particularly closely related. After all, both princes and toads are in the vertebrate phylum. One of the amazing things about life is that if there niche in which a living can to be made, something will no doubt evolve to exploit that niche. Yeast such as we use for beer (and wine and bread) apparently evolved to make a living off of fruit. In other words, it is a spoilage organism. People have simply exploited this ability of yeast to derive energy by metabolizing fruit sugars, and have selected yeast whose character they preferred, just as desirable cattle, grain, etc. have been selected. People probably first exploited yeast in the making of wine. The outside of grapes have a waxy coating to which yeast cells stick. That is how wine can be made by simply crushing grapes and adding nothing else. Of course, this is potluck - you might get good or bad yeast with good or bad wine. Bread and beer were probably made with wine yeasts at first, and then yeasts were selected to be better suited for these. There is fairly recent documentation (less than 200 years) of English bakeries making bread with "ale barm," or ale yeast. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:13:48 -0600 From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: competition ethics Sven Pfitt writes: > When YOU brew it, it is YOUR beer. > Enter it. Now we get to the crux of the ethics question. At what point are you considered to have BREWED the beer? There are now true no-boil kits on the market, BrewHouse is probably the best and best known of these. For those not familiar with the line, you can check out http://www.thebrewhouse.com/frameset.htm But to summarize, they are bags of high gravity wort that you dilute with water and pitch the yeast. Clearly, the entire brewing process has been done for you here, assuming you don't tweak the kit in some way. Is it ethical to enter one of these in a competition? Now consider pre-hopped extracts. I don't consider these true no-boil kits even if some manufacturers' instructions don't call for boiling. Most seem to agree they will yield a better product if boiled briefly, with some hops added back to restore the flavour and aromatics. However, they have been around for years, and I'm sure many brewers do make them up simply by reconstituting with water, and have entered competitions with them. Are these ethical, when done in that manner? Does anyone see a difference between them and the BrewHouse style? The only difference to me seems to be the amount of water you have to add back. The big question: should competitions flat out say, you must have performed a boil as part of the process to qualify for entry? It would, of course, be a completely unenforceable rule, but competitions largely rely on the honour system anyway. I mean, has anyone here ever ratted out another brewer that they knew were being less than strict in their adherence to the rules? Cheers Brian Lundeen Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:14:46 -0500 From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net> Subject: Romulan Ale/Speed of sound in CO2 Romulan Ale: 1 shot Blue Curacao 1 shot any clear liquid (gin, vodka, etc) seltzer or sparkling water (Lemon Perrier works great) And just out of curiosity, why does anybody care what the speed of sound is inside a CO2 tank? Is there any practical applicatin for this? Just wondering whether this is something useful, or some of you just have WAY too much time on your hands. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:59:38 -0500 (EST) From: hollen at woodsprite.com Subject: Re: RIMS water heater element grounding > I would just ground the heater chamber itself, but there is a need to > use teflon tape to keep the wort from leaking out the bushings, etc, so > it isn't all electrically connected to the male threads of the water > heater element. If you need to use teflon tape, you are doing something wrong. The heater element should come with a rubber gasket. If you tighten the element into the heater chamber until the gasket just contacts the chamber all the way around and then turn the element 1/2 turn only more, then you will have no leaks, and your element will be thoroughly grounded. Or do you have some setup that would prevent you from doing this? I have never seen a heater element that did not install with a gasket. dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:01:21 -0500 From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com> Subject: Question on Sanyo Kegerator I'm in the market for a kegerator to replace my '70s era, avocado green serving fridge - located in the guest bedroom of my house. Does anyone out there own and have an opinion on the Sanyo BC-1206 kegerator? It's offered on CostCo's web site (look under appliances / wine coolers). Are there other favorite kegerators for serving homebrew from and why? Off-list responses on this one are OK... Mark Nelson Atlanta GA USA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:11:01 -0500 (EST) From: hollen at woodsprite.com Subject: Re: Removing Organic Deposits from Plastic Parts I used my Little Giant pump for close to 10 years before I, too, had the threads of the output pipe snap off (I dropped the pump from 7 feet in the air). I took it apart several times in that time, and also noticed a slight brown film. That film never went away, nor did it continue to accumulate any thicker. I never bothered to clean it. All I do at the disassemble the heater chamber, use a scotchbrite pad on the elements, and use a straightened out carboy brush on the heater chamber. No CIP with harsh chemicals needed. Bottom line, if you never use your pump to move wort AFTER THE BOIL, the sanitation issue is moot. Any "bugs" that get in your wort will be killed in the boil. However, don't make the mistake I did, either. For the first several batches with my RIMS system, I did not know I should clean the heater elements. I thought my hot water flush was sufficient. The very thin layer of beige that can end up on the heater element must be cleaned off immediately, or IT WILL ROT. Guess how I know? dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:20:54 -0500 From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: RIMS water heater element grounding Lou King Asked, "Should I solder something onto the hex edge, which normally screws into the water heater, and put a ground screw into that?" I am not sure of your configuration but I have grounded a number of hex head heaters. I drill and tap a hole through the head for a #4 screw. There is just enough space near the point of any of the 6 "corners". Of course depending on how you have mounted the element, this screw may interfere with other things Hope this helps Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY *********************************************************** *My goal: * Go through life and never drink the same beer twice. * (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.) *********************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:16 -0500 From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: temperature (tun) Yes, there is an 8 to 10 degree F. temperature variation in my mash tun. Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY *********************************************************** *My goal: * Go through life and never drink the same beer twice. * (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.) *********************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:30:58 -0500 From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> Subject: Re:Home made mill This is one I built 2 years ago. Still works like a champ. http://hbd.org/pcalinsk/GrainMill.htm Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY *********************************************************** *My goal: * Go through life and never drink the same beer twice. * (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.) *********************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:45:33 -0500 From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net> Subject: Pump parts cost From time to time, we see in HBD posts from people needing replacement parts for mag drive pumps. Two models that are commonly used for home brewing are the Little Giant 3-MDX and the March MDX3, which nearly identical. I have one of each, and as I just ordered parts for the Little Giant, I thought there might be some interest in the cost. It isn't cheap! The pieces that commonly wear are the o-ring seal and the pump bearing surfaces, which consist of the stationary impeller shaft and the mating surface of the impeller - 3 parts in all - and that's what I ordered. The total came to $43 plus shipping, which is about half what I paid for the pump several years ago. Little Giant doesn't sell parts direct, so I had to order from an in-state distributor. Gag! Dave in Bel Air, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:43:58 -0800 (PST) From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com> Subject: re: Home made mill >I would like to know if somebody could be so kind to give me some >guidelines as to buid a malt mill, or if it is always easier to buy one. >In that case I would have to order it by the Internet.. It is extremely >difficult to find one here in Spain. The book "Brew Ware: How to Find, Adapt, & Build Homebrewing Equipment" has a couple of designs for building your own mill, one with hardwood rollers, one with knurled steel. I don't have any experience building one myself (I'm very happy with my JSP MaltMill), but think its more trouble than its worth. If you want anything that will last as long as the commercial mills, you'll probably spend as much money on building one as just buying one. One a slightly related note, I'm 90% done with motorizing my JSP, as detailed in Mike Dixon's excellent instructions: http://hbd.org/carboy/motorizing_a_malt_mill.htm Thanks Mike. - --rama San Francisco bay area Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 12:56:53 -0500 From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net> Subject: Re; RIMS water heater element grounding Lou - I have no experience with your particular problem, and you'll probably get some answers from others who have dealt with it specifically. However, I will offer some suggestions based of many years of working with electrical things. I would go for a mechanical connection rather than trying to solder. Good soldering technique, particularly where there is the chance of stress caused by movement, always starts with a mechanical connection, and then uses the solder to stabilize the joint and improve electrical conductivity. Just "pasting" a wire onto a surface with solder is not reliable. The two ways of making a mechanical connection that come to mind are a clamp and a screw. If there is a place on the heating element header where you could drill and tap a hole for a screw, that would be my choice. If that is possible, I suggest using a washer on top of the wire to enlarge the contact area and make sure the wire doesn't creep out from under when you tighten the screw. Also, some thread-locking compound in the screw threads would keep the screw from backing out, and would also seal against leaks. Of course, if the header is thick enough to accommodate a screw without your having to drill all the way through, then leakage would not even be a consideration. If the screw idea won't work, than you might try a hose clamp wrapped around the perimeter of the header. Dave Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:02:49 -0800 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Relax and have a homebrew Dennis Collins speaks on The Church of Relax and have a homebrew "Some day I'll recount my story why it's a good idea to put the "out" hose on your keg connector before putting it on a pressurized keg of Porter in your church clothes." Which begs the question...Which Church lets you bring a keg of porter to the service--and do they have a Congregation in Seattle? ;^) Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:29:42 -0800 (PST) From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com> Subject: culturing Lactobacillus delbruckii I'm going to get a slap pack of Lactobacillus delbruckii (Wyeast 4335) shortly, and would like to preserve a sample of it for future use. Any suggestions on how to preserve a culture, and how to step it up come pitching time? Do slants and wort starters apply the same as they do with yeasts? And what about shelf life, the same/shorter/longer than yeasts? - --rama Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:43:29 -0500 (EST) From: Jason Poll <jtpoll at mtu.edu> Subject: Original Yeast Sources In HBD 4162 Greg Man wondered of the origins of Yeast: "1st a curios question that will no doubt be hard to answer. Where do you suppose the first yeast came from? I believe that yeast is classified as a fungi, right? So does that mean the first brewers threw in different" ... <SNIP> ... "know? I have read that the family's passed down magic barrels, or paddles? But where do you suppose it started with all these different strains we" <SNIP> I highly recommend that you pick up a copy of the book "Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers: The Secrets of Ancient Fermentation" by Stephen Harrod Buhner. I got this as a holiday gift, and kinda looked at it oddly at first, but upon some reading, found it quite interesting. And it answers your question, at least part of it. Evidentally, a wort would be made, it was just left to be populated by wild yeasts. Once a favorable wild yeast was found, one that made good beer, you kept it, and used it in the future. How that was done differs among different peoples. Some would swirl (juniper?) branches in the fermenting wort, and the yeast would remain on the branch. The branches would be later swirled in a new wort for the next beer. Other cultures had special fermentation jars: once the wild yeast populated a jar, that jar was always used for fermenting. An interesting piece I remember about this fermenting-jar practice was that if they wanted to make more fermenting-jars, they would place new, wort-filled jars near the yeast-populated jars so that these new jars would "learn" how to ferment wort. :-) The knowledge of yeasts doing the fermenting is relatively new in our history as a humans. These 'ancient' peoples knew that if you did the right things, the wort would bubble, and with it, it became more nutritious, as well as intoxicating. There's a whole spiritual aspect to it, which I can't get into without straying farther off topic. :-) I'm really just skimming the surface of what Buhner covers in the book, and I'm almost sure I've screwed something up in my recollection. Unfortunately, I'm unable to answer your question of how it went from this, to today's cultivated and managed yeast strains. Anyway, time to get back to work. --Jason Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:07:29 -0500 From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net> Subject: Re: temperature (tun) In HBD 4162, Darrell Leavitt asks about temperature gradients in a mash. If a heated surface is exposed to a cooler environment, heat will flow from the heated surface. This is what you do when you cool your wort after the boil. The surfaces of a heated mash tun that are exposed to a cooler environment (the room air, for example) are the sides, the bottom, and the top. If you leave the lid off, heat will be lost from the top faster than if you leave the lid on. So unless you keep it stirred, the mash near the exposed surfaces will cool faster than the mash in the center. And depending on the air currents around the mash tun, some surfaces may cool faster than others. You can maintain a more-or-less even temperature by (1) constant stirring, (2) insulating the mash tun, (3) recirculating the mash liquid, or (4) putting the whole mash tun into an environment the same temperature as the desired mash temperature, (e.g., an oven). Some replacement of lost heat will be needed for any these methods. Dave in Bel Air, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:28:00 -0900 From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com> Subject: 84%! Just brewed a stout this Sunday, enjoying all my new gadgets (turkey fryer set, ATC refractometer, glass carboys... with more in the works), and finally found the magic setting on my little grain mill... My mash actually hit (according to the refractometer and my "Brewculator" PDA software) 84% efficiency! Even with my stupendously ugly vinyl hose manifold. :-) What a huge relief after seeing my last three batches barely hitting 60%. Next project: designing a sparging sprinkler arm for the square cooler, and installing a ball valve in the hot liquor pot, so I can abandon the "shaking a perforated milk jug over the mash tun like some trailer-park holy-water dispenser" routine I've been doing. My arm gets tired after an hour. I am of course, so tickled about the efficiency breakthrough that when the fermentation got out of hand a few hours later, and my carboy spent about 12 hours oozing foam all over my towels and closet, I didn't mind a bit. Also... finally rigged up a mini-keg beer engine tap (I'm really loving the hardware store's tubing & plastic fitting department...), and put 5L of rye ale in a mini-keg on Saturday. In a couple of weeks, assuming it works, I'll take photos of the whole assembly and post them on my website... - -- Teresa - Two Rivers, Alaska [2849, 325] Appt. Rennerian "It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." -- Abraham Lincoln Return to table of contents
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