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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
RE: Speed of Sound in CO2 ("Darwin Airola")
Chest Freezer Versus Refrigerator for Beer Cooling ("Darwin Airola")
Re: Man (Todd Goodman)
Grounding RIMS Heater element (FRASERJ)
RE: Home made mill (Michael Hartsock)
RE: Setting the grain bed (Jeff Berton)
Re: two things (Michael Hartsock)
Re: two things (Jeff Renner)
RE: competition ethics (Brian Lundeen)
Romulan Ale/Speed of sound in CO2 (Bill Wible)
Re: RIMS water heater element grounding (hollen)
Question on Sanyo Kegerator ("Mark Nelson")
Re: Removing Organic Deposits from Plastic Parts (hollen)
Re: RIMS water heater element grounding ("Pete Calinski")
Re: temperature (tun) ("Pete Calinski")
Re:Home made mill ("Pete Calinski")
Pump parts cost (David Towson)
re: Home made mill (Rama Roberts)
Re; RIMS water heater element grounding (David Towson)
RE: Relax and have a homebrew ("Mike Sharp")
culturing Lactobacillus delbruckii (Rama Roberts)
Original Yeast Sources (Jason Poll)
Re: temperature (tun) (David Towson)
84%! (Teresa Knezek)
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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:31:37 -0600
From: "Darwin Airola" <Darwin at hypergalaxy.net>
Subject: RE: Speed of Sound in CO2
To: Andrew Nix and Steve Alexander,
Thanks for your replies! I really do appreciate your assistance!
It looks like we all came up with about the same answer. However, I was
only going by memory from my one high school chemistry class, which I
took a long, long time ago, and I would really like to read up on the
theories that you based your solutions on...
Thus, Andrew, could you please send me the titles, authors, etc. for one
or more good references that derive the speed of sound in an ideal gas
via your specific heat method (preferably one that derives the result
from first principles)?
Steve, could you please send me the information for one or more
references on your speed of sound = sqrt(gamma * gas pressure / gas
density) equation (preferably one that derives the result from first
principles)?
If you have any information that describes how and why these equations
break down and derives how to model second, third, etc. order effects, I
would really appreciate it if you would forward those to me as well!
I would greatly appreciate your continued assistance with this matter!
Regarding what I am doing: My consulting company (HyperGalaxy, Inc.) is
working on a rather unusual but very fun project that involves beer
kegs...
Take care,
Darwin
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Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:31:37 -0600
From: "Darwin Airola" <Darwin at hypergalaxy.net>
Subject: Chest Freezer Versus Refrigerator for Beer Cooling
Hello, again!
Is there any advantage to using a freezer as opposed to a refrigerator
for beer cooling (or vice versa)?
Is not beer at a bar kept at around 36 degrees Fahrenheit?
Also, if a chest freezer is used, is there a way to avoid the cooling
and condenser coils when drilling holes in the thing?
Take care,
Darwin
- ---
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the
exclusive and confidential use of the intended recipient. If you are
not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute or take
action in reliance upon this message. If you have received this in
error, please notify us immediately by return email and promptly delete
this message and its attachments from your computer system. We do not
waive work product privilege by the transmission of this message.
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:38:36 -0500
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: Man
> In HBD #4162 "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com> wrote:
[SNIP]
> I have to wait until my Man Room ( that's what my wife calls my new workshop)
Ha, my wife calls my brewing and reloading area "your cave."
The architect knew though, it's a "Brewing Kitchen" and "Cold Storage"
on the plans. :-)
Todd
Almost Brewing Again in Westford, MA
[630.3, 84 Apparent Rennerian]
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:46:56 -0500
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: Grounding RIMS Heater element
I simply grounded mine to the heater chamber, and I know it works because I
accidentally shorted to the heater chamber! Don't ask...... :(
Fortunately no one was hurt.
If you are concerned about the Teflon tape preventing a contact between the
element and the chamber, go buy a cheap voltmeter, they often have a mode
that determines resistance. Screw your elements in and then test the
resistance between the chamber and the element nut. If its zero, then you
can happily ground on the chamber! The following link shows the bare
copper wire in the middle of the chamber, attached via a hose clamp:
http://rims-brewing.tripod.com/rims_brewing_rims_unit_pic_4.htm
Happy brewing
John M. Fraser
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 05:08:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Home made mill
I'm in the middle of making my own. So far so good,
my test run last night proved to me that the stone
would draw grain, I had some (ok, most) of the malt
escaping along the sides of the stone, so I need to
cut some new boards. if you have access to some
tools. (lathe being the most important) or can
scrounge up a roller, give it a try.
I fashioned my stone out of quikcrete (not the fast
setting stuff) and sifted the rocks out to give me a
full cement stone. I ran a 1/2 steel rod (with
perpendicular pins ran through it to grip the cement)
and used a 5" wide by 5" dia plastic mold to set the
cement (one of those CD-R spindles) then I used a
lathe with a masonry bit to true up the sides and
surface. I ended up with a knurled finish and a true
stone. The rest is just details. It crushes against
an adjustable aluminum plate.
We'll see how it turns out, the real test will be the
beer I brew with it.
mike
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:20:26 -0500
From: Jeff Berton <jeff344 at galaxy.lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE: Setting the grain bed
Steve Alexander wrote:
> Where you live Bill it's lucky you didn't get a hydrazine burn at the golf
> course !
A shuttle joke? Already? I'd have expected better taste from you, Steve.
Jeff Berton
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 06:31:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: two things
Well, I hate to say it, but you're thinking about this
mushroom thing completely wrong headed. I don't think
that mushrooms would have the capacity to ferment
anything, unless they carried yeasts (likely) just
like apples and grapes.
Yeast is airborne. If you set an agar plate nearly
anywhere in the world and then incubate it at room
temp, you will have cultured yeasts and mold, just
from the wee beasties settling on the plate. The
first fermentations (in most parts of the world) was
probably honey. Possibly honey in an old tree that
collected rainwater and fermented naturally. Grapes
and apples (not to mention any other fruit) have their
own yeasts. The french still largely ferment using
the natural organisms and not pure cultures. As for
beer, the first beers (and still many belgian beers)
are open air fermented are naturally innoculated with
natural yeasts.
The modern Strains we have, are merely these natural
organisms cultured with modern knowledge of
microbiology. Microbiology didn't create them, we
merely isolate and culture them. Wood harbors yeasts,
so the magic paddles and barrels were thought to be
magic because they harbored the appropriate yeasts
(and proabably lacto and aceto bacterias to name a
few). It was magic until science identified yeast as
the power behind fermentation, quite recently.
Sorry this was windy.
mike
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:55:07 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: two things
"greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com> is pondering the origin of life,
or at least of yeast:
>1st a curios question that will no doubt be hard to answer. Where do you
>suppose the first yeast came from? I believe that yeast is classified as a
>fungi, right? So does that mean the first brewers threw in different
>mushrooms to the wort in order to ferment? Which leads me to another
>question. How many people do you suppose died tying that first beer made
>with poison mushrooms? How many times would you have to do that until they
>found a no-toxic mushroom? ok that's just silly but really does any body
>know? I have read that the family's passed down magic barrels, or paddles?
>But where do you suppose it started with all these different strains we
>have..............hmmmmmmmmm
The fungi is a huge group of organisms - at least a phylum or even a
separate kingdom. The fact that yeast and mushrooms are both in that
huge group does not mean they are particularly closely related.
After all, both princes and toads are in the vertebrate phylum.
One of the amazing things about life is that if there niche in which
a living can to be made, something will no doubt evolve to exploit
that niche. Yeast such as we use for beer (and wine and bread)
apparently evolved to make a living off of fruit. In other words, it
is a spoilage organism. People have simply exploited this ability of
yeast to derive energy by metabolizing fruit sugars, and have
selected yeast whose character they preferred, just as desirable
cattle, grain, etc. have been selected.
People probably first exploited yeast in the making of wine. The
outside of grapes have a waxy coating to which yeast cells stick.
That is how wine can be made by simply crushing grapes and adding
nothing else. Of course, this is potluck - you might get good or bad
yeast with good or bad wine.
Bread and beer were probably made with wine yeasts at first, and then
yeasts were selected to be better suited for these. There is fairly
recent documentation (less than 200 years) of English bakeries making
bread with "ale barm," or ale yeast.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:13:48 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: competition ethics
Sven Pfitt writes:
> When YOU brew it, it is YOUR beer.
> Enter it.
Now we get to the crux of the ethics question.
At what point are you considered to have BREWED the beer? There are now true
no-boil kits on the market, BrewHouse is probably the best and best known of
these. For those not familiar with the line, you can check out
http://www.thebrewhouse.com/frameset.htm But to summarize, they are bags of
high gravity wort that you dilute with water and pitch the yeast.
Clearly, the entire brewing process has been done for you here, assuming you
don't tweak the kit in some way. Is it ethical to enter one of these in a
competition?
Now consider pre-hopped extracts. I don't consider these true no-boil kits
even if some manufacturers' instructions don't call for boiling. Most seem
to agree they will yield a better product if boiled briefly, with some hops
added back to restore the flavour and aromatics. However, they have been
around for years, and I'm sure many brewers do make them up simply by
reconstituting with water, and have entered competitions with them. Are
these ethical, when done in that manner? Does anyone see a difference
between them and the BrewHouse style? The only difference to me seems to be
the amount of water you have to add back.
The big question: should competitions flat out say, you must have performed
a boil as part of the process to qualify for entry? It would, of course, be
a completely unenforceable rule, but competitions largely rely on the honour
system anyway. I mean, has anyone here ever ratted out another brewer that
they knew were being less than strict in their adherence to the rules?
Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:14:46 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Romulan Ale/Speed of sound in CO2
Romulan Ale:
1 shot Blue Curacao
1 shot any clear liquid (gin, vodka, etc)
seltzer or sparkling water (Lemon Perrier works great)
And just out of curiosity, why does anybody care what the
speed of sound is inside a CO2 tank? Is there any practical
applicatin for this? Just wondering whether this is something
useful, or some of you just have WAY too much time on your
hands.
Bill
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:59:38 -0500 (EST)
From: hollen at woodsprite.com
Subject: Re: RIMS water heater element grounding
> I would just ground the heater chamber itself, but there is a need to
> use teflon tape to keep the wort from leaking out the bushings, etc, so
> it isn't all electrically connected to the male threads of the water
> heater element.
If you need to use teflon tape, you are doing something wrong. The heater
element should come with a rubber gasket. If you tighten the element into
the heater chamber until the gasket just contacts the chamber all the way
around and then turn the element 1/2 turn only more, then you will have no
leaks, and your element will be thoroughly grounded.
Or do you have some setup that would prevent you from doing this? I have
never seen a heater element that did not install with a gasket.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:01:21 -0500
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
Subject: Question on Sanyo Kegerator
I'm in the market for a kegerator to replace my '70s era, avocado green
serving fridge - located in the guest bedroom of my house.
Does anyone out there own and have an opinion on the Sanyo BC-1206
kegerator? It's offered on CostCo's web site (look under appliances /
wine
coolers). Are there other favorite kegerators for serving homebrew from
and why?
Off-list responses on this one are OK...
Mark Nelson
Atlanta GA USA
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:11:01 -0500 (EST)
From: hollen at woodsprite.com
Subject: Re: Removing Organic Deposits from Plastic Parts
I used my Little Giant pump for close to 10 years before I, too, had the
threads of the output pipe snap off (I dropped the pump from 7 feet in
the air). I took it apart several times in that time, and also noticed a
slight brown film. That film never went away, nor did it continue to
accumulate any thicker. I never bothered to clean it. All I do at the
disassemble the heater chamber, use a scotchbrite pad on the elements, and
use a straightened out carboy brush on the heater chamber. No CIP with
harsh chemicals needed.
Bottom line, if you never use your pump to move wort AFTER THE BOIL, the
sanitation issue is moot. Any "bugs" that get in your wort will be killed
in the boil.
However, don't make the mistake I did, either. For the first several
batches with my RIMS system, I did not know I should clean the heater
elements. I thought my hot water flush was sufficient. The very thin
layer of beige that can end up on the heater element must be cleaned off
immediately, or IT WILL ROT. Guess how I know?
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:20:54 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: RIMS water heater element grounding
Lou King Asked, "Should I solder something onto the hex edge, which normally
screws into the water heater, and put a ground screw into that?"
I am not sure of your configuration but I have grounded a number of hex head
heaters. I drill and tap a hole through the head for a #4 screw. There is
just enough space near the point of any of the 6 "corners".
Of course depending on how you have mounted the element, this screw may
interfere with other things
Hope this helps
Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
***********************************************************
*My goal:
* Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
* (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:16 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: temperature (tun)
Yes, there is an 8 to 10 degree F. temperature variation in my mash tun.
Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
***********************************************************
*My goal:
* Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
* (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:30:58 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re:Home made mill
This is one I built 2 years ago. Still works like a champ.
http://hbd.org/pcalinsk/GrainMill.htm
Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
***********************************************************
*My goal:
* Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
* (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:45:33 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Pump parts cost
From time to time, we see in HBD posts from people needing replacement
parts for mag drive pumps. Two models that are commonly used for home
brewing are the Little Giant 3-MDX and the March MDX3, which nearly
identical. I have one of each, and as I just ordered parts for the Little
Giant, I thought there might be some interest in the cost. It isn't cheap!
The pieces that commonly wear are the o-ring seal and the pump bearing
surfaces, which consist of the stationary impeller shaft and the mating
surface of the impeller - 3 parts in all - and that's what I ordered. The
total came to $43 plus shipping, which is about half what I paid for the
pump several years ago. Little Giant doesn't sell parts direct, so I had
to order from an in-state distributor.
Gag!
Dave in Bel Air, MD
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:43:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Home made mill
>I would like to know if somebody could be so kind to give me some
>guidelines as to buid a malt mill, or if it is always easier to buy one.
>In that case I would have to order it by the Internet.. It is extremely
>difficult to find one here in Spain.
The book "Brew Ware: How to Find, Adapt, & Build Homebrewing Equipment" has a
couple of designs for building your own mill, one with hardwood rollers, one
with knurled steel.
I don't have any experience building one myself (I'm very happy with my JSP
MaltMill), but think its more trouble than its worth. If you want anything that
will last as long as the commercial mills, you'll probably spend as much money
on building one as just buying one.
One a slightly related note, I'm 90% done with motorizing my JSP, as detailed
in Mike Dixon's excellent instructions:
http://hbd.org/carboy/motorizing_a_malt_mill.htm
Thanks Mike.
- --rama
San Francisco bay area
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 12:56:53 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re; RIMS water heater element grounding
Lou - I have no experience with your particular problem, and you'll
probably get some answers from others who have dealt with it
specifically. However, I will offer some suggestions based of many years
of working with electrical things.
I would go for a mechanical connection rather than trying to solder. Good
soldering technique, particularly where there is the chance of stress
caused by movement, always starts with a mechanical connection, and then
uses the solder to stabilize the joint and improve electrical
conductivity. Just "pasting" a wire onto a surface with solder is not
reliable.
The two ways of making a mechanical connection that come to mind are a
clamp and a screw. If there is a place on the heating element header where
you could drill and tap a hole for a screw, that would be my choice. If
that is possible, I suggest using a washer on top of the wire to enlarge
the contact area and make sure the wire doesn't creep out from under when
you tighten the screw. Also, some thread-locking compound in the screw
threads would keep the screw from backing out, and would also seal against
leaks. Of course, if the header is thick enough to accommodate a screw
without your having to drill all the way through, then leakage would not
even be a consideration.
If the screw idea won't work, than you might try a hose clamp wrapped
around the perimeter of the header.
Dave
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:02:49 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Relax and have a homebrew
Dennis Collins speaks on The Church of Relax and have a homebrew
"Some day I'll recount my story why it's a good idea to put the "out" hose
on your keg connector before putting it on a pressurized keg of Porter in
your church clothes."
Which begs the question...Which Church lets you bring a keg of porter to the
service--and do they have a Congregation in Seattle? ;^)
Regards,
Mike Sharp
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:29:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: culturing Lactobacillus delbruckii
I'm going to get a slap pack of Lactobacillus delbruckii (Wyeast 4335) shortly,
and would like to preserve a sample of it for future use. Any suggestions on
how to preserve a culture, and how to step it up come pitching time?
Do slants and wort starters apply the same as they do with yeasts?
And what about shelf life, the same/shorter/longer than yeasts?
- --rama
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:43:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Poll <jtpoll at mtu.edu>
Subject: Original Yeast Sources
In HBD 4162 Greg Man wondered of the origins of Yeast:
"1st a curios question that will no doubt be hard to answer. Where do you
suppose the first yeast came from? I believe that yeast is classified as a
fungi, right? So does that mean the first brewers threw in different"
... <SNIP> ...
"know? I have read that the family's passed down magic barrels, or paddles?
But where do you suppose it started with all these different strains we"
<SNIP>
I highly recommend that you pick up a copy of the book "Sacred and Herbal
Healing Beers: The Secrets of Ancient Fermentation" by Stephen Harrod
Buhner. I got this as a holiday gift, and kinda looked at it oddly at
first, but upon some reading, found it quite interesting. And it answers
your question, at least part of it.
Evidentally, a wort would be made, it was just left to be populated by
wild yeasts. Once a favorable wild yeast was found, one that made good
beer, you kept it, and used it in the future. How that was done differs
among different peoples. Some would swirl (juniper?) branches in the
fermenting wort, and the yeast would remain on the branch. The branches
would be later swirled in a new wort for the next beer. Other cultures had
special fermentation jars: once the wild yeast populated a jar, that jar
was always used for fermenting. An interesting piece I remember about
this fermenting-jar practice was that if they wanted to make more
fermenting-jars, they would place new, wort-filled jars near the
yeast-populated jars so that these new jars would "learn" how to ferment
wort. :-)
The knowledge of yeasts doing the fermenting is relatively new in our
history as a humans. These 'ancient' peoples knew that if you did the
right things, the wort would bubble, and with it, it became more
nutritious, as well as intoxicating. There's a whole spiritual aspect to
it, which I can't get into without straying farther off topic. :-)
I'm really just skimming the surface of what Buhner covers in the book,
and I'm almost sure I've screwed something up in my recollection.
Unfortunately, I'm unable to answer your question of how it went from
this, to today's cultivated and managed yeast strains.
Anyway, time to get back to work.
--Jason
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:07:29 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: temperature (tun)
In HBD 4162, Darrell Leavitt asks about temperature gradients in a mash.
If a heated surface is exposed to a cooler environment, heat will flow from
the heated surface. This is what you do when you cool your wort after the
boil. The surfaces of a heated mash tun that are exposed to a cooler
environment (the room air, for example) are the sides, the bottom, and the
top. If you leave the lid off, heat will be lost from the top faster than
if you leave the lid on. So unless you keep it stirred, the mash near the
exposed surfaces will cool faster than the mash in the center. And
depending on the air currents around the mash tun, some surfaces may cool
faster than others.
You can maintain a more-or-less even temperature by (1) constant
stirring, (2) insulating the mash tun, (3) recirculating the mash liquid,
or (4) putting the whole mash tun into an environment the same temperature
as the desired mash temperature, (e.g., an oven). Some replacement of lost
heat will be needed for any these methods.
Dave in Bel Air, MD
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:28:00 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: 84%!
Just brewed a stout this Sunday, enjoying all my new gadgets (turkey
fryer set, ATC refractometer, glass carboys... with more in the
works), and finally found the magic setting on my little grain
mill... My mash actually hit (according to the refractometer and my
"Brewculator" PDA software) 84% efficiency! Even with my stupendously
ugly vinyl hose manifold. :-) What a huge relief after seeing my last
three batches barely hitting 60%.
Next project: designing a sparging sprinkler arm for the square
cooler, and installing a ball valve in the hot liquor pot, so I can
abandon the "shaking a perforated milk jug over the mash tun like
some trailer-park holy-water dispenser" routine I've been doing. My
arm gets tired after an hour.
I am of course, so tickled about the efficiency breakthrough that
when the fermentation got out of hand a few hours later, and my
carboy spent about 12 hours oozing foam all over my towels and
closet, I didn't mind a bit.
Also... finally rigged up a mini-keg beer engine tap (I'm really
loving the hardware store's tubing & plastic fitting department...),
and put 5L of rye ale in a mini-keg on Saturday. In a couple of
weeks, assuming it works, I'll take photos of the whole assembly and
post them on my website...
- --
Teresa - Two Rivers, Alaska [2849, 325] Appt. Rennerian
"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices
have very few virtues." -- Abraham Lincoln
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