HOMEBREW Digest #4246 Thu 15 May 2003

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  Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer ("-S")
  re: faux decoction ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Cascade hops (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  More on Cascade hops (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: Cascade hops ("Mark Kellums")
  z-approximation rule of thumb ("Frank Tutzauer")
  Google search (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
  Steak and Potato Smoothie ("Tom White")
  Cascade-Free Brewing . . . ("Ray Daniels")
  Skotrat on Cascade Hops (skotrat)
  Re: How popular is Cascade hops? (Matthew Arnold)
  Re: bad brew (Brian Dube)
  UV v. Blue-Violet light (G C)
  Give it a try for me please! ("Royal L. Doss")
  You are hot! ("Weldon Alvarado")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 04:33:08 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer Hi Scott DeWalt suggests of jalapeno beer ..., > Since when is adding an ingredient a colossal mistake? USUALLY it's a mistake! Ketchup on lobster; onions on ice cream; basil in apple pie ... jalapenos in beer - bad flavor matches are far more common than good ones. > Try it, you might find life more entertaining outside >of the box. Outside the box ? You're totally lost, Scott ! Pepper beer isn't innovative. It's a completely predictable Americanism geared toward simple palates. If you'd like to compound the stupidity why not add some cumin with the chilis and called it BBQ beer. Until you figure a way to step-mash MacDonald fries there is no more obvious, stupid, pointless 'hack' beer around. ==== * NB 99.4% opinion follows* == I'm sure there must be a book somewhere that discusses flavor from the subjective POV, but I've never found it. Let me expound my personal thoughts here a little. Taste in food is individual, but there are clearly huge cultural (experience) influence factors involved. Taste in food is also biological - studies that show that infants, children lactating women have decidedly different taste in food, tastes which are appropriate or the biological needs. Infants and young children reject anything bitter or phenolic as phenolics reduce protein and mineral uptake. Kids also seek out sweet, starchy and bland foods. In adolescence and adulthood taste *usually* broadens. The fast-food industry and a lot of mass-market processed food vendors survive on the bland sweet starchy foods that children enjoy. I *think* this and families divorced from their cultural food roots, creates a subculture of adult N.Americans with completely child-like taste preferences. Of course these adults with simple palates are not as restrictive in their food choices - they also find unchallenging and excessively strong one-dimensional food flavors enjoyable and these populate the grocery store aisles from jello to the too_hot sauces to the excessively spiced chili mixes. Taste ... We know that the tongue provides us with sweet/salty/bitter/sour flavor sensations and a bit more, but also the tongue and mouth provide us with texture sensation. Astringency (divorced of bitterness) is really a texture not a flavor for example. Of course the olfactory sense is much keener and provides us with a great many more dimensions - beyond discussion here. Anyway that's the issue - food has texture, has basic(sweet/sour/bitter/salty/umami/?) tongue flavor and has multidimensional aroma. Aroma is a loaded term which may mean odor or more generally olfactory flavor. Most 'natural' foods can be appreciated for a balance of flavors. Cherries, raspberries and banana each have distinct positive flavors which can't be seen as overly complex. They have strong positive fruitiness and individual flavor/aroma character and sweetness with varying acidic sourness and texture. There is also a certain amount of phenolics that provides freshness and a little bitterness to counterpoint the dominant sweetness. As simple as these flavors are, they are vastly more interesting than the one-dimensional artificial flavoring found in cheap hard candies. Somehow the dominant flavor alone is not nearly as good as the dominant flavor surrounded by an array of related or contrasting secondary flavors found in natural fruit. The big flavors NEED balance. Another type of balance occurs more often in man-made combinations - when two distinct flavors of similar strength and somehow work well together. Sometimes these combine into something better than the sum of the two. Tomato+basil is a common example tho balanced toward tomato, baked sweet_corn+mature_bell_pepper, baked_rye+caraway(or karnushka) on pumpernickel or poppyseed+lemon - there are millions of combinations that work but billions that don't. Manmade combinations of flavors (like beer, chili, pizza) require calculated human intention in order to achieve a balance of the sensory aspects. I'm an amateur at designing this balance, but I know it when I taste it - clear as day. The balance always takes a common form: 1/ A counterpointing of contrasting flavors, 2/ A cluster of similar flavors which diffuse the simple one-dimensional effect of the a single dominant flavor, 3/ A pair of distinct competing flavors, well balanced. Of course texture and basic tongue flavor design require attention too. ==== Dark chocolate is an interesting case. It's strongly bitter yet sweet. So what else goes with this flavor set ? Bright, sweet but strong mint works and so do strong berry flavors like raspberry - by competition. It's hard to find strong flavors to compete, and it's hard to find complementary background flavors for chocolate (maybe dark malt flavor !). Some other strong and sweet flavors - like cinnamon and ginger just don't work - tho' I can't point to a generalized principle to explain why. It you thin out the chocolate flavor and bitterness, as in milk chocolate, then more possibilities exist. Consider chili as a dish. The best preserved the roasted/sauted beef or pork flavor while adding flavors from peppers, garlic, onion, cumin, salt and other spices without overdoing any one. Like all great dishes each spice adds something without necessarily being individually evident. Bad, one dimensional chilis are more common. Most lose all the meat flavor behind a wall of spices dominated by cumin+tomato and either sugar or hot-chili flavor. The sweet&hot dominant peaks don't create balance. Why ? Oh yeah beer. Beer style is still actively evolving. The addition of hops was a major step forward in creating a harmonious balance between sweetness and bitterness with the added complexity of hop aroma.. The creation of vienna/munich malt too adds to the depth of these complex and harmonious flavors. I just don't see spicy_hot and vegetal pepper flavor as a positive addition toward a harmonious whole. I see it is just another sidetrack toward childish one-dimensional awkward flavor in beer. I really don't understand why anyone would take the ingredients for a great ale and mess it up with peppers or other vegetable garden refugees - !unless! they don't really like ale in the first place. I first tried chili beer about 10 years ago(Cave Creek) , and have several times since and I always think it's one step better than a phenolic infection and one step worse than excess diacetyl. YMMV. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 05:02:02 -0400 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: faux decoction Alan Meeker writes about microwave decoction ... >So, I'm curious as to what folks think of this procedure. Has anyone else >tried this?? I've conducted numerous mini-step mashes in the microwave but never a decoction. I'm convinced that the steps and a microwave boil will extract starch. I'm not at all certain that the microwave heating will accomplish much Maillard product formation. It doesn't in carbo-micro-baking (try making toast in a microwave) and the reason has a lot to do with low surface temps as evaporation occurs. The same should reduce the decoction flavor impact. Other flavor product extraction and conversion appears in decoction, but these are more closely related to dark malt inclusion. There are ways to get 'browning products' in microwave baking, but these involve changing the microwave frequency - see the Chorleywood process (an early UK microwave baking process) for more detail and studies. You'll get similar extraction as per decoction, but I have serious doubts that the flavor is the same. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:09:55 -0400 From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com> Subject: re: Cascade hops Kevin a.k.a. KCSTAR21 at aol.com wrote about Rick Gordon's note: Rick said: "I was introduced to Sierra Nevada on tap in Carmel, CA (OK, I understand they use Chinook, but bear with me)." And Kevin said: Actually, I believe SNPA uses Perle for bittering and Cascade for flavoring. Actually, Kevin, it depends on which Sierra Nevada Rick is talking about. Celebration Ale is bittered with Chinook. As is the Sierra Nevada Stout, for that matter. You are correct that SNPA is bittered with Perle and finished with Cascade. But Rick didn't say he was talking about SNPA only Sierra Nevada. Big Foot, Celebration, Pale Ale and Stout all have Cascade for finishing. But the bittering hops are Nugget, Chinook, Perle and Chinook respectively. Bob Barrett Ann Arbor, MI (2.8, 103.6) rennerian. This guy makes a great cap. I think he said, "I've got that style nailed!!!!" Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:36:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: More on Cascade hops Ah... it is my turn to belabor this point. Also, I plan to make it a bit more esoteric debate. I like cascade hops in some beers, american style beers. I think that neutral yeast and cascade (or similiar citrusy hops) in many otherwise traditional beers makes them markedly american. 'Nuff said about my opinion on that. Now on a bit: I think that americans are scared to be proud about our own brewing traditions. Many if all nations have a dark period that shouldn't make its entire history embarrassing. Do I need to mention the crusades, World War II, and the inqusition? Americans had prohibition and McCarthyism. Corn, cascade, and birch (not to mention many other things) are important to the american brewing tradtion. While I don't like corn, and others don't like cascade - these things are all part of the american tradition. I think that beer in america is automatically dismissed as crap and low quality. Frankly, a particuliar friend of mine from Belfast drinks only miller lite, and another friend from dublin only likes zima and similar "malt" liquor crap. Truely sad. My point is that there is plenty of mass produced import crap that sucks as bad as american crap. There is also plenty of good domestic beer. mike ===== "May those who love us, love us. And those that don't love us, May God turn their hearts. And if he doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles So we'll know them by their limping." Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:14:00 -0500 From: "Mark Kellums" <infidel at springnet1.com> Subject: Re: Cascade hops Hello, Personally I like Cascades. I use both homegrown and commercially available forms for my APAs, American Browns, and even my Stouts and Porters. As far as POR goes it's been a few years since I've used them. All I can recall is that the bitterness was nicer than what I would have expected. Gunnar Emilsson writes that no more than 20% Munich malt should be used when using Cascades. My experience contradicts this. One of my best beers ever was 100% light Munich malt using only Cascades for bittering flavor and aroma. It was a very nice beer. This reminds me of something Marc Sedam mentioned awhile back about not using sulphate in beers hopped with Cascades. Maybe there something to this? My last APA was hopped with only Cascade, without the addition of any sulphate. It was fantastic! John O'Connell writes: One thing about Cascade is it is a really robust-growing hop. Me: Robust growing for this variety might even be an understatement! It's probably the most foolproof variety you can grow. Even a first year Cascade should give you a decent harvest. It's the weed of the hop world! Mark Kellums Decatur Il. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:41:21 -0400 From: "Frank Tutzauer" <comfrank at buffalo.edu> Subject: z-approximation rule of thumb Jonathan mentions an alternative rule of thumb for the appropriateness of the z-approximation. Actually, the two rules I'm familiar with are either Np(1-p) > 9, or, alternatively, that both Np and N(1-p) be greater than 5. The Np(1-p) > 9 rule is more often used. I cited the other rule simply because with that rule I needed to refer only to p and not both p and (1-p). The proportions we're talking about are things like 1/3, 1/4, or 1/8. Hence, Np will be less than N(1-p), and therefore if Np is greater than five, then so is N(1-p). Remember we're talking about the adequacy of an *approximation* -- how adequate it needs to be is open to interpretation. We thus have developed "rules of thumb" -- not laws from on high. Use whatever suits you. Approximation??? We don't need no stinking approximation. Binomial tables coming soon. Also, I'm pro Cascades, especially with a heavy hand. Grapefruit always fades. --frank Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:42:05 -0400 From: "Mueller, Kevin (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com> Subject: Google search Thought this was kind of funny. Last night I bent a rim on my motorcycle when riding over a pot hole. Heard that MDOT has forms to fill out and you can make a claim to get paid back for vehicle damage caused by potholes. So I search google "Michigan bent rims pot hole", and up comes a few links for the HBD!!! Kevin Canton, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:05:04 -0400 From: "Tom White" <twhite at dminsite.com> Subject: Steak and Potato Smoothie > Putting chilis or jalpenos (sic) into beer is to me about as > sensible as running a grilled steak, a baked potato w/ sour > cream and a glass of cabernet together in a blender and calling > it dinner. It's an offensively bad idea. Steak and Potato Smoothie!!! That's a great idea! Thanks. Though, I think I'll add green beans. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:10:35 -0500 From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net> Subject: Cascade-Free Brewing . . . I had to jump in with a comment on Cascades. First, I love them---there are obviously a bunch of great beers made that depend on this hop variety. As a homebrewer trying to recreate those beers, there is no other way to go. On the other hand, when one goes to innovate, Cascades are so, I don't know, COMMON, I suppose, that it really seems like the time to leave them alone. A number of years ago when I was working (unsuccessfully) to start a brewery, I resolved that we would NEVER use Cascades in a beer as a matter of principle. (Why copy what someone else is doing when you are trying to make a name for yourself?) At the recent Craft Brewers Conference I had a chance to visit some with Lee Chase, the head brewer from Stone Brewing Co., makers of Arrogant Bastard Ale and he mentioned that they follow a "no Cascades" policy in their brewery. No doubt this same idea has occurred to other commercial brewers who make great beers. Hmmm . . . might be a topic worthy of an article sometime. By the way, Arrogant Bastard Ale was #5 in our poll of Zymurgy readers on the Best Beers in America. Be sure to check out the July-August issue for full poll results and TONS of clone recipes (both extract and all-grain)---it'll be out in late June. Cheers, Ray Daniels Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer Director, Brewers Publications Association of Brewers ray at aob.org 773-665-1300 For subscriptions and individual copy sales, call 1-888-822-6273. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:57:35 +0000 From: skotrat at attbi.com Subject: Skotrat on Cascade Hops Hmmm, I like Cascade hops... I went through 10 pounds of them last year... There are alot of brewers in the BrewRats and on the Chat that love Cascade hops... Chances are Little Sh--t Face (Tom Smit) decided to speak for the entire US and posted in a Aussie forum that Americans dislike C hops... That would be my guess... Like Phil Sides though I have been unhappy with the over all quality of Cascades as of late. As far as using them... BRING ON THOSE CASCADES AND CENTENNIALS!!! I LOVE EM! Thank you... Drive through please. C'ya! -Scott ===== "My life is a dark room... One big dark room" - BeetleJuice Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:43:19 -0500 From: Matthew Arnold <marnold at ez-net.com> Subject: Re: How popular is Cascade hops? > So I put to this group - what are our thoughts about Cascade hops? I like 'em in APAs and American IPAs. I want to try an American Amber Ale with Cascade one of these days. I even use them in my plambics! Having said that, the Cascades I use in that are whole hops that are many, many years old. They smell more like swiss cheese than grapefruit. On the other hand, I would never dream of using them in an Altbier. Spalt all the way! Matt Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:11:20 -0500 From: Brian Dube <brian.dube at gotgoat.com> Subject: Re: bad brew Thanks to everyone who responded to my astringency question. I'm sorry I didn't respond to your individual replies; I've been ridiculously busy lately. I've concluded that my cream ale sucks because the ingredients were 'more expired' than I previously thought. Thanks, Brian - -- Brian Dube Columbia, Missouri Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:19:31 -0700 (PDT) From: G C <gsd4lyf at yahoo.com> Subject: UV v. Blue-Violet light I thought UV light caused skunking, but someone said that it's the blue-violet region that causes this, and it's NOT the UV frequency that causes skunking. Is blue-violet not considered UV? Could someone please shed some light on the subject and/or point me to some good sources? Here's the link about blue-violet light: http://www.regional.org.au/au/abts/1999/simpsons.htm Guy Los Gatos, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:05:43 +0000 From: "Royal L. Doss" <rdoss93 at virtualis.com> Subject: Give it a try for me please! CQ0KCQ0KIA0KCTxIVE1MPgkNCgk8Ym9keT4gDQoJDQogIDxwIGFsaWduPSJj ZW50ZXIiPjxXRExGPjxmb250IGZhY2U9InZlcmRhbmEiPg0KZ2V0IDxYSFBQ Pmw8WU1STT5hcjxaRz5nZTxRUz5yIGJhbGxzIGFuZCA8V0xRPnBlbu1zLCAg IA0KIDxZWFFFPm1vcmUNCiBwPFhRSkk+bDxXUVNSPmU8Wk0+YXN1cmUsIAkJ IG08WEo+b3JlDQogPEtQS0E+c2F0PFpLST5pc2ZhYzxZWUVBPnRpb248YnI+ DQo8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vaGVhTFRILmhPU3RjbjIuY29NLyU3MCU2NWsv bSUzMiU2My5wJTY4cD8lNkRhJTZFPSU2Yms0JTMyJTMyYSI+RmluZCBvdXQg bW9yZSBoPFpKVj5lPEtIPnI8V1VKST5lPC9hPjxicj4NCjxicj4gDQogPGEg aHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL2hFYUx0aC5IT3NUY04yLmNvbS8lNzAlNjVrLyU2RCUz MmMuJTcwaHA/JTZkJTYxJTZlPSU2YiU2QiUzNDIlMzIlNjEiPg0KIA0KIA0K IDxJTUcgQk9SREVSPTAgU1JDPSJodHRwOi8vaEVBTHRILkhvU1RjbjIuY09t L3AuanBnIj4NCgk8L2E+PGJyPjxicj48YnI+DQo8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8v aEVhbFRoLmhvU1RDbjIuY09tL3JlJTZEbyU3NmUvIj5ObyA8Q1RSVT5tPFhI RlM+b3JlIHBsZWFzZTwvYT4NCjxicj4tPTJuZWRtejFibXY3PS08L2ZvbnQ+ PC9wPg0KCQkNCgkJPC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4gDQogIA0KDQo= Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:15:35 +0000 From: "Weldon Alvarado" <weldonalvarado_4 at americanfinancecenter.com> Subject: You are hot! CTxodG1sPiAgDQogDQogDQo8Ym9keSBiZ2NvbG9yPSIjZmZmZmZmIj48cCBh bGlnbj0iY2VudGVyIj48WUZCUj48Zm9udCBmYWNlPSJ2ZXJkYW5hIj48V1dC Vz4NCmdldCBsYTxLVT5yZzxLSj5lPENaPnIgbnV0cyBhbmQgcDxDSE4+ZW7t PEM+czxLS0k+LCANCiANCiBtb3JlDQogcDxLUVVQPmw8WD5lYXN1cmU8WFFG PiwgDQogICBtPEtWVz5vcjxYU0VHPmUNCiA8WD5zPFpGREY+YTxLPnQ8WVRH PmlzZmE8UVE+YzxDS04+dDxYRFlKPmk8WkdOPm88WEw+bjxicj4NCjxhIGhy ZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly9IZWFsdEguSE9zVGNOMi5jT20vJTcwJTY1ay9tMmMucGhw P20lNjElNmU9JTZiayUzNCUzMjJhIj5GaW5kIG91dCBtb3JlIDxRSj5oZTxa ST5yPFlIVj5lPC9hPjxicj4NCjxicj4NCiANCiANCgk8YSBocmVmPSJodHRw Oi8vaEVBTFRoLmhvc1RDTjIuY29tLyU3MCU2NWsvbTJjLnAlNjglNzA/JTZE YSU2ZT1rJTZCJTM0JTMyMmEiPg0KIA0KCQ0KCTxJTUcgU1JDPSJodHRwOi8v SEVhTHRILmhPc1RDbjIuQ09tL3AuanBnIiBCT1JERVI9MD4NCgkNCjwvYT48 YnI+PGJyPjxicj4NCjxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly9IRUFsdEguaG9TdENuMi5j b00vcmVtb3YlNjUvIj5ObyBtb3JlIHBsZWFzZTwvYT4NCjxicj4tPXFvcG0w ajFoOW04anI9LTwvZm9udD48L3A+DQoJCQkJDQogPC9ib2R5PjwvaHRtbD4N CiAgDQoJDQoNCg== Return to table of contents
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