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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Skunking and light ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer ("-S")
  Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer (Hayes Antony)
  Wyeast #1187 Ringwood (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: Fat Tire Clone (Jason Woolwine)
  Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer (Michael Hartsock)
  Fat Tire Clone Needed (djhbrew98) ("Ray Daniels")
  Chili Beer--theoretical to practical (Robert Sandefer)
  Jalapeno subtext (Scott)
  Cascades (Nick Nik)
  Chili Beer ("Tom White")
  travels in brewing (Marc Sedam)
  Foam Aid (propylene glycol alginate) ("Susan Ruud")
  FWH practicalities ("Christopher Post")
  Briess Malt ("Dennis Collins")
  Conditioning in corny without priming (neils)
  Spaten Optimator Clone (Glenn M Gardner)
  re: Brettanomyces ("Chad Stevens")


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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:00:14 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Skunking and light

So I was cleaning up for a family visit tonight, and what should I find, 
but a paper titled "Interplay of Photochemistry and Beer: How 
Lightstruck Flavor Is Formed and How It Can Be Prevented" by Denis De 
Keukeleire, Ghent University, Belgium. from The Spectrum, Vol 14, No. 1, 
Spring 2001. I'll quote a bit from the conclusions:

    Photochemistry undoubtedly deteriorates the quality of beer ...
    Isohumulones, the main beer bitter compounds derived from hops,
    undergo light-induced decomposition either on direct illumination
    with UV-A light, or via a photoredox reaction involving excitation
    of a visible-light absorber such as riboflavin. ... Our studies of
    this phenomenon by means of time-resolved electron paramagnetic
    resonance, applied to the photochemistry of individual beer bitter
    compounds and model systems, in conjunction with identification of
    photoreaction products, have permitted to establish reliable
    reaction mechanisms for formation of the lightstruck flavor.

He concludes that light in the range of 350-500nm (near UV to 
blue-green) is (most) responsible for skunking.

=Spencer



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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 04:40:17 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer

Michael Hartsock says ...,

> I couldn't DISagree with you more!  ...

You'll disagree more after you read this post.

> But if you
> look culturally and historically, most indigenous
> dishes are starchy, and overspiced.  Need I point out
> mexican and Indian dishes?

I appreciate that you disagee Michael, it's too bad you didn't bother to
respond to any of my points.

I wrote NOTHING to indicated that many (not most) cultures do not enjoy very
spicy dishes.   Traditional spicy dishes are NOT generally unbalanced.  Very
hot spicy chili can  balance the meat, peppers, spices flavor while lousy
chili is just sweet or spicy glop.   Kung Pao chicken can be very hot, but
it's balanced by other flavors.   If you don't see that then you missed the
point.

I completely disagree with Michael about curry.  I don't enjoy curry, but it
is clearly combination of several spices which represent a true balance of
different flavors.   It's no "johnny one note" simple flavor.   I must agree
that I don't see much balance in Thai food as served in the US - but I
wonder if it's authentic or if it's my lack of experience.   I find types of
balance in virtually all other cultural cuisines I've tried.   Often the
balance point is odd to the inexperienced, but it's usually clearly there.

What I DID say was that infants and children reject many food, for
bitterness or spiciness (or even foreignness).    We in the US have few
common cultural foods and often families have lost their cultural food
roots, so there is no developmental notion of balanced flavor for many.

This vacuum of (generally well balanced) cultural foods is filled in two
ways.  First the MacDonalds and the Budweisers of the world present us with
completely safe and unchallenging low-flavor foods.  These represent the
sort of bland flavor scheme that an infant or child would want.   No one
really likes these - but no one hates them either.  They are truly foods for
the least-common-denominator.  The other direction is in extreme inbalance.
Whether it's Kool-Aid or Pez or  Extreme Habanero sauce for the BBQ or
peppermint schnapps or sugar coated cereals - these do not represent
anything like a balanced flavor scheme.   They are cartoonishly out of
balance.

Very flavorful beers can either be balanced or unbalanced.   Look at Victory
Hop Devil with a huge IBUs count.   An average ale with 100IBUs it would be
horribly unbalanced.   Instead Victory adds a HUGE malt background and a
fair bit of sweetness to this beer and creates a very nicely balanced big
beer.

> So what is the difference in using jalapenos or orange
> peel?  One is traditional, one is not.

It has nothing to do with tradition.  The difference is that the hot
capsecin component of pepper beer adds nothing to the experience except a
sharp kick to the tongue.   It ruins malts' natural smoothness which is a
primary component of beer.  You might as well add peppermint to a fine pils.
It is jarringly out of place whereas a moderate amount of orange peel is not
disruptive to beer flavor and adds nuance to the acidity.

There are a lot of non-standard beer 'adulterants' which actually make
sense.   Raspberries and apples and raisins push beers in different and
somewhat non-obvious positive directions.   Nuts in beer acts very
harmoniously w/ the malt flavor.   The spice selection for Xmas ales
requires considerable experience - but adds to the estery fruitiness and
'justifies' the beers sweetness without covering it as much as hops.  I'm
stunned and surprised at how well pine/juniper flavor works in beer.  I'm
certain there are many undiscovered flavors what will work in beer.  Maybe
someone will discover a new spice or flavor that will revolutionize the way
we think of beer - much as hops did 6 centuries ago.   It won't be hot
peppers I am quite certain.

The only relation to tradition is that grossly unbalanced flavor schemes
don't survive the test of time to become tradition.

>Jazz is the only truely original american art form.

PBS inspired bull**** !   'Art' is just a proscribed subset of crafts.   A
few centuries hence our skyscrapers, vehicles, silicon chips, nuclear policy
and internet will be viewed as art, with distinct American expressions.   If
you opened your mind you'd see that all expressions of style are art.   It's
only due to restricted vision that jazz appears as unique or that it's
'American-ness' matters a whit.

>The spirit behind Jazz drives authentic american
>creations.

That's a highly romantic and childish thought Michael.   Similar to and just
as implausible as Marx' historical dialectic.  The same precise arguments
can justify Yoda's view of 'The Force' as the fountainhead of all
innovation.  Irrelevant and ridiculous.

> A benefit of not being a nation with deep
> cultural roots, is that we are not bound to cultural
> roots.

Right - and this gives us the freedom to try different things.   Great
things like the bill of right, public education, bourbon, jazz, APAs, TV and
the internet; also awful things like Prohibition, pepper beer,  Edsels,
disco, Budweiser, SPAM, TV, public education and the 'Patriot Act'.

>Welcome to america!

I've been here all along Michael, maybe when you get back from Jazz fantasy
land you'll tell us why pepper beer is good.

America is about individuality and individual choice.   I have no difficulty
if you choose to drink pepper beer, or Bud or Corsendonk or Franziskaner.
You have freedom to choose but the choices have differing merit independent
of popularity.   I posted my opinion of the general merit of pepper beer.  I
like pepper and I like conventional ale but I don't think the two belong
together.  If you want to rebut that then tell me what makes it pepper beer
better than the equivalent unpeppered ale aside from  "I like it - it's
jazzy".   I am perfectly aware that tastes differ.  I am not just saying
that I personally dislike pepper beer.   I'm suggesting it's a bad idea
based on more general principles just like peppermint beer and eucalyptus
beer - just not as bad.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:31:54 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer

Our study group's topic last night was beer and food. I used Steve
Alexander's (-S) post yesterday as an example of a well thought out approach
to the subject. His three methods of deciding flavour combinations formed a
useful discussion point.

I find it interesting that the criticisms of his post are not as well
thought out, or set out in as structured an argument. The counter argument
seems to be that flavour is totally subjective, and hence no objective
statements can be made. Whilst this may be true at a philosophical level,
practically, there are some objective statements that hold true sufficiently
for them to be useful. It is in the exploration of these semi objective
observations that the art of flavour lies. I find Steve's work very useful
here.

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg



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The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
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other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.



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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:21:34 -0400
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Wyeast #1187 Ringwood

I am reluctantly trying Ringwood again, after a very bad experience with 
it when I got some slurry from a brew-pub several years ago.  The flavor 
was VERY phenolic (I believe) and medicinal...and I had to toss the batch 
into the woods!

I have the feeling that this yeast is rather cranky if not dealt with in 
exactly the right way,...but am uncertain as to what those parameters are.
In the absence of any advice I am going to try to keep the temp down near 
the bottom of its range,...and perform a diacetyl rest.

Has anyone used this yeast, and what advice can you give.  I like the 
flavors that result from the ringwood creatures, but in moderation...

 ..Darrell
 Plattsburgh, NY: 44 41 58 N Latitude
                  73 27 12 W Longitude
 [544.9 miles, 68.9]Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jason Woolwine <jasonwoolwine at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fat Tire Clone

The BYO recipe archives have a recipe for Fat Tire.  I
haven't tried it so I can't comment on the recipe but
here's the link:

http://www.byo.com/recipe/685.html

Jason




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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:31:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer

 -S says:

OK, well, -S says a lot.  Unfortunately most of the
arguments are Ad Hominum, scarecrow, red herring, and
otherwise "question begging" arguments.  I will take
up the mission of justifying the pepper beer without
succumbing to an off-topic discussion about
"childish", "PBS" inspired opinions about JAZZ.  

My jalapeno beer is well balanced.  I soaked the
peppers (three total) in water just off the boil in a
covered pot for 15 minutes.  I discarded the water and
added the few peppers to the secondary.  The result is
a beer without even a hint of heat, but I nice pepper
flavor that is balanced against a muted amber ale with
low hopping rates and a nice, dry backbone.  

It is not better than un-peppered ale, and simply I
would never claim that it replacement for any style. 
It is GOOD, however, and it has a profile that is
"garden fresh."  

Much like fruit in a beer, it takes the ale in
different directions.  

Just remember, claiming that an argument is "PBS
inspired" is not an effective rebuttal, and aligning
your opponent with Markism is just a cheap semantic
trick, appealing to the "lowest common denominator." 

Michael
University of Missouri-Columbia

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:49:15 -0500
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Fat Tire Clone Needed (djhbrew98)

Can't spill the beans yet, but Fat Tire also rated high in the Zymurgy
survey of the Best Beers in America and there will be a clone recipe for
it in the July-August issue as well . . . 

Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications
Association of Brewers

ray at aob.org
773-665-1300

For subscriptions and individual copy sales, call 1-888-822-6273. 



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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:56:27 -0400
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Chili Beer--theoretical to practical

I have enjoyed (parts of) the recent chili beer thread.
I agree that opinions are numerous and that homebrewers, being an 
independent lot, will brew whatever they want...

So, for those who have brewed chili beers, perhaps this dicussion can turn 
from 'should you brew chili beer?' into 'how do you brew chili beer?'.

To wit, how many ounces of chili peppers did you add to the brew? What kind 
were they? When did you add them to the brew? Beginning of boil? End of 
boil? Secondary fermenter? Bottle?
How long were they in the brew?
What flavors besides heat were imparted?

Note there are flavors besides bell pepper and heat in chili peppers. I 
tasted several varieties of raw chili peppers a year ago to explore 
differences in heat and taste. If anyone's interested, I'll dig the tasting 
notes out.

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA




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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:08:19 -0700
From: Scott <sejose at pacbell.net>
Subject: Jalapeno subtext

Lots of stuff flying around about putting chiles in beer.  The only reason
I'm looking to brew a Jalapeno Ale is because my brother is hosting a 'Hot
Luck" (as opposed to pot luck).  Everyone brings a hot dish.  So naturally,
I was asked to bring a Jalapeno Ale.  Makes sense, doesn't it?

So I turn to this forum for assistance, and did receive some.  Also
witnessed the sort of banter and talk that reminds me of sitting at a bar,
drinking many beers.  Very much fun.

So let's keep it up, and yup, I'm going to put veggies in my beer.




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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:20:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nick Nik <nikifor99 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cascades

I just happened to have some Cascades AND some POR and
with the recent discussion
I was tempted to bitter with 1 oz of POR at boil and
hop up with 3+ ozs of Cascade. But instead
I used the Nugget for bittereing as I had originally
planned. I also steeped some smoked peated
malt with some amber malt.

I will use the POR with the Styrian Goldings in the
next batch (some of you are probably
crunging...ouch). Then again, maybe I will not. I am
thoroughly enjoying experimenting
with different hops.

My first lager is fermenting away at 50 degrees and
has a real strong wlp800 ripe banana, fruity, estery
smell. 

I had a few pints of Magic Hat's Blind Faith recently.
Delicious! Does anyone know what that
is hopped with?

Nick



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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:45:52 -0400
From: "Tom White" <twhite at dminsite.com>
Subject: Chili Beer

I find myself pining for days of the Yeast Infection thread.
- --Tom



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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:59:34 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: travels in brewing

I'm going to be in Chicago in the first week in June (yes, I know I'm 
missing the NHC).  I've been to Goose Island and have had suggestions to 
go to the Map Room too.  Any other good places or beer-related events 
going on that week?  I'm going to see a couple of Cubs-Yankees games.

Also planning a trip to Oslo, Norway.  From what I can tell it's a beer 
wasteland, but I have little knowledge outside of the Lonely Planet 
guidebooks.  Any brewpubs or beer-esque drinks (something analagous to 
Finnish sahti) worth going to or trying?

Cheers!
Marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:42:31 -0700
From: "Susan Ruud" <susan.ruud at ndsu.nodak.edu>
Subject: Foam Aid (propylene glycol alginate)

Hi,  I was wondering if anyone had any experience with Foam Aid (propylene
glycol alginate).  A friend of mine obtained some when a local Brew Pub went
to pub heaven.  It gives directions for how much to add per barrel - has
anyone tried this in a 5 gallon batch?  Also - any flavor changes noted with
it? Any other problems/advantages to it?

Thanks,  Your help is really appreciated,
Susan Ruud
[716.5, 301.1] Apparent Rennerian
Harwood, ND



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Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:20:54 -0400
From: "Christopher Post" <chrispost@ earthlink.net>
Subject: FWH practicalities

Resend in plain text since it didn't appear in the Digest first time
around - perhaps a formatting incompatibility?

All,

Read the debate on FWH with interest but some frustration, since I'm a
zillion miles away from understanding the chemistry and simply want to know
how I can best test empirically.  My main questions are:

 - In adapting my own or published all-grain recipes, what part of the hop
schedule to modify?  I assume that the FWH addition will take the place of a
bittering addition since, flavoring considerations aside, the hops will be
in the kettle for the full boil.  But, how much (if any) additional alpha
acid isomerization will take place during the ramp up to the boil, i.e. will
I have to adjust the amount of bittering hops accordingly?

 - I generally boil my wort hard for a half-hour before making any hop
additions and use the time to skim off the protein "scum" forming in with
the foam.  I do this by simply ladling the foam out and rinsing down the
drain, trying to take as little good wort with it as possible.  But, is it
possible that the flavor compounds created as a result of the FWH process
are concentrated in the foam I'm discarding, and in this case am I better
off just ignoring the protein buildup?

Thanks, and apologies if these and other practical points are addressed
elsewhere -

Chris




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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:18:21 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Briess Malt

I've noticed on my last two bags (50 lb) of Briess 2-row malt that my
extraction was way down, like 8 - 10%.  When I use the same mill and the
same procedures with Munton's or Marris Otter 2-row, the extraction goes
back up.  I've learned to compensate for this and the beer tastes okay, but
it seems strange for the extraction values to be so different.   Are the
extraction values for Briess just that much lower?  I've always relied on
the default extraction numbers from Promash and hit them dead on with the
Muntons and MO, but with the Briess, this doesn't appear valid.  What are
others' experiences on this?  It would be nice to have actual (accurate)
extraction potentials for not only malt types, but specific brands as well.
Thanks in advance.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice".




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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:29:53 US/Central
From: neils at texas.net
Subject: Conditioning in corny without priming

Greetings from Austin, Texas (sorry, no Rennerian)

Anyone have any experience with a method suggested by Dave Miller in his 
classic homebrewing book in which conditioning and carbonation is conducted in 
a corny keg without priming?

I ran across this passage again in his book awhile back and having recently 
just returned from two weeks in Scotland conducting research for my forthcoming 
book and having visited some Scottish breweries that this technique is quite 
similar to how cask conditioned ales are actually carbonated/conditioned (at 
least today) by some of them.

Has anyone tried this? Any success/failure?

Slainte!
Neil Spake
Email:
neils at texas.net



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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:28:53 -0500
From: Glenn M Gardner <ggardner at juno.com>
Subject: Spaten Optimator Clone

Heat 1/2 gallon of water to 160.  Add:
18 oz. Belgian Cara-Munich Malt
1 oz. British Chocolate Malt
In another pot, heat 1 gallon of water to 160.  Add:
24 oz. German Munich Malt
4 oz. Belgian Aromatic Malt
Remove pots from heat source and steep for 30 minutes.  Sparge the grains
with 1 gallon
of 150 degree water.  Bring the water to a boil, remove from heat source
and add:
5.5 lbs. M&F Extra Light Dry Malt Extract
3.5 lbs Bierkeller Light Malt extract Syrup
8 oz. Malto Dextrin
2 oz. Tettnanger  at 3.9%AA bittering
Add water to make up 3.5 gallons.  Boil for 45 minutes then add:
1 tsp. Irish Moss
Boil for 15 minutes.  Remove the pot from the heat source and chill the
wort for
20 minutes.  Transfer to the primary fermenter and add cool water to
bring up to
5 1/8 gallons.  When wort temp is below 80 degress pitch the yeast.
1st choice:  Wyeast 2308 Munich Lager.  Ferment at 47-52 degrees for 4
weeks then
at 57-62 degrees for the remainder of fermentation.
2nd choice:  Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager.  Ferment at 47-52 degrees.
Transfer to secondary fermenter after 7 days or fermentation slows. 
Pitch a second
batch of the same yeast used above 3 days before bottling.  Bottle when
fermentation 
is complete, approximately 5 weeks.
Prime with 1 1/4 cups M&F Wheat Dry Malt Extract that has been boiled for
10 
minutes in 2 cups of water.
Let prime at 70 degrees for approximately 3 weeks, then store at cellar
temperature.
OG: 1.077 - 1.079
FG: 1.021 - 1.022
ABV: 7.2%

Glenn in Plano
"Ein tag ohne bier, ist vie ein tag ohne sonneschein"



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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:57:27 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: re: Brettanomyces

I tried this a week ago and got no response so I'll try again.

 It is my understanding that in 1996 the genus Brettanomyces was replaced by
Dekkera:

 Brettanomyces abstinens is now Dekkera bruxellensis
 ""                    anomalus            ""      anomala
 ""                    bruxellensis         ""      bruxellensis
 ""                    claussenii            ""      anomala
 ""                    custerianus         ""      custeriana
 ""                    custersii              ?
 ""                    intermedius         ?
 ""                    lambicus             ""      bruxellensis
 ""                    naardenensis       ""      naardenensis


 Can anyone confirm the genus Brettanomyces no longer exists?  Any
additional info?

 Thanks,

 Chad Stevens



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---