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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Schmitz Process ("Sweeney, David")
  Returning to the list after a long absance ("Edward d")
  Re: Kegging Cabonation Problem ("Dave")
  Long Term Future of Homebrewing (Hayes Antony)
  pre-heating the tun (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: The future of Homebrewing ("Hanlon, Steve")
  RE: QDs ("Walter H. Lewis III")
  Reproduction and Brewing ("Dan Listermann")
  RE:  The future of homebrewing ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Long term future of Homebrewing (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  RE Kegging Carbonation Problem ("Doug Hurst")
  John Harrison and Durden Park: Old British Beers and how to make them (davidedge)
  Re: Kegging Carbonation Problem (Calvin Perilloux)
  Future of Beer ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  RE: Bill's views (Brian Lundeen)
  Nils' Kegging Problem ("Jay Spies")
  looking for pub info? ("Richard S. Sloan")
  RE: "Poor man's RIMS" (Paul Shick)
  QDs correction (Alan McKay)
  Re: 58,000 btu's (Teresa Knezek)
  Picking a mill / Winemaking / brewing and time factors (David Harsh)
  Re: Kegging Carbonation Problem (David Wilbur)
  Homebrewing time and expense (Jim Larsen)
  Summer brews (Pat Babcock)
  RE: The Long Term Future of Homebrewing (Donald Hellen)


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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:56:03 -0500
From: "Sweeney, David" <David at studentlife.tamu.edu>
Subject: Schmitz Process

I recently read with interest the Zymurgy article on Pilsner Urquell.  The 
article references the Schmitz process of decoction, but only briefly.  
Apparently, this is a process of decoction where some of the original mash 
liquor is reserved and the rest of the entire mash is boiled.  However, I 
can find no references to it or hits in the HBD archives.  Does anyone 
have any details on this "new" decoction technique?

David Sweeney
Texas Aggie Brew Club
david at thesweeneys dot org


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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:44:59 +0800
From: "Edward d" <edwardd at dodo.com.au>
Subject: Returning to the list after a long absance

Returning to the list after a long absance.
Edward Doernberg
Perth
Western Australia
About 2 years ago I was a member of the HBD trying to get my brewry to work.
I had some sucseses and a fiew falures but I took it in stride. Unfortunatly
I brewed to often and stoped to try and drink it and slowly stoped reading
the HBD.
Having resntly moved into a smaller place I can no longer do all grain
brewing but I want to brew something this weakend. Unfortunatly I lost my
faverats file over the 2 years or so I don't know the websits I used to use
for resipy idears so I am apealing for help. Please tell me where I can find
resipys on line. It would be wrong to clog the digest witeh these messages
(unless others are interested) so send them directly to edwardd at dodo.com.au.
Also if you are awere of any brewing clubs in Perth pleas tell me where to
contact them.
I look forwood to reading the list again.
Thanking you in advnce.
Edward Doernberg



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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:36:00 -0700
From: "Dave" <brewingisloving at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kegging Cabonation Problem

"Hi,
  I'm trying kegging for the 1st time & having some trouble with the
carbonation.  After racking the wort into the keg, I attach the CO2 &
set it to 20 psi.  I then leave it in the frig for about a week.  Both
batches I've done this with have been all head when poured."

Your first problem is that you are carbonating with too much pressure,
unless your refrigerator is set at an abnormally high temperature.  See
this chart for the proper PSI depending on the temperature of your
refrigerator:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/instructions/co2.htm

Remember that your refrigerator does not maintain
a constant pressure, but, rather, it probably fluctuates by about 5-7
degrees F.  The lowest temperature your keg gets to determines the
carbonation level.

"I am using the 3/16" beer out line as suggested by St Pat's, but am
only using about 8-10" of it if that makes a difference.  I also set
the system up once with about 4' of 1/4" for the beer out & had the
same result.  My gas in line is 1/4 " or maybe 3/8".  Any ideas or
suggestions on what I should try?"

Your second problem is that you have WAY to little beer line.  You
are correctly using the right ID beer line (3/16"), but you need to
balance the line's resistance with the serving pressure, otherwise
the beer comes out too fast and the carbonation is stripped.  1/4"
line doesn't offer nearly enough resistance unless you were to use
20+ feet of it.

So, for example, if you want 2.5 volumes of carbonation
(see the page I sent you to above for approximate carbonation
levels of different style beers), and you are serving at 40 degrees,
then you would want to pressurize your kegs to about 12 PSI.
Since 3/16" beer line has about 2 pounds of resistance per foot, then
you would want at least 6 feet of that tubing.  Start with 8 feet and work
your way down until you get a good pour.

One other thing.  Make sure you open the faucet all of the way.  Opening
it partially causes too much turbulence and strips the CO2 out of solution.

Good luck,

Dave


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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:29:00 +0200 
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Long Term Future of Homebrewing

Dan Listermann's question refers

I recently got hold of a copy of the Town and Country Brewer - published in
1830 (Great book if you haven't encountered it). It had a chapter on home
brewing which sounded very similar to the instructions that our club gives
out now. (You can make better beer on a small scale that a pro can on a
large scale. Use old porter barrels to make your brewery. A false bottom in
your mash tun is easier than using a separate mash and lauter tun, drill a
bunch of "gimlet holes" etc) In fact, the book was much better than some of
the home brew texts written in the 1960's and 70's

So in that sense not much has changed. On the other hand, he thought that
yeast could be made using flour and water, so we have picked up a bit of
learning on the way.

The concerns that I have regarding our hobby are:

1. Young people are increasing attracted to simpler tasting alcoholic
drinks, i.e. the alcopops. (Steve Alexander's arguments refer)
2. Health and Social legislation is more sophisticated than Prohibition
legislation was. Alcohol abuse is linked to family violence, road accidents,
and crime in general. Our Minister of Health has effectively banned smoking,
and is now using similar arguments to go after the alcohol industry.

However, the hobby provides a good balance of science and art, and is
attractive to people with a bit of spare time who want a home based
recreational activity. So as long as alcohol production remains legal, I
think that there will be home brewing on a fairly wide scale. 

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg


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Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:46:50 -0400
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: pre-heating the tun


I used to pre-heat the mashtun, and see that a number of folks here do 
that.  I suppose that these are mostly cooler-tuns?  I ask in that since I 
switched to a PolarWare 10 gal pot, I no longer pre-heat with boiling 
water, but just calculate with ProMash and usually hit the desired strike 
temp right on the button.  For ex, it seems that over the last several 
batches that I have done (given the same amt of grain, grain temp, water 
to grain ratio, etc) that the temp of my strike water (to reach 148F) 
needs to be 160F.....and if I find that I am under-estimating then I just 
heat the strike water a bit next time.....

I guess that I wonder if this pre-heating, even for cooler-tuns, is an 
extra step that can be avoided by heating your strike water up more?

 ...Darrell





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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:16:26 -0400
From: "Hanlon, Steve" <SHanlon at dnr.state.md.us>
Subject: Re: The future of Homebrewing

> I think this is true everywhere.  I can attest personally
> that new children and family obligations are the number
> ONE reason (with a bullet) why we lose brewers.  Alot of
> guys already complain that they don't have the time to brew.
> Add a new child and all that responsibility, and we never
> see the guy again.  Plus, I hear alot of excuses from homebrew
> club members who don't come out or attend events, even with
> older children - soccer practice, games, picking the kids up,
> etc.   The answer, obviously, is not to discourage people from
> having children so they can brew, but to find out WHY these
> people have such a hard time finding the time to brew.

i am married and have a son who is nearly 2.  it is difficult to juggle
spenting time with my family and exploring my hobbies.  several of my
hobbies require hours and hours but not all at once, and others, like
homebrewing require a few hours every at a time when i brew and then an
hour or so when i bottle.

brewing with a toddler is a difficult proposition, and may contribute to
the loss of those homebrewers.  i took a half day from work to brew my
first batch - my son was in daycare and  my wife at work.  my son is
very curious and i know he would want to know what dad was cooking and
then he of course would want some.  he made a bee-line for the fermentor
when he came home.

it is going to be tough to continue to brew, but i am a low volume
drinking and therefore only brew once a month.  as it is, i have 4 cases
in the basement that i haven't started to drink.  no, i don't need any
help :)

it all comes down to why you are making beer.  i make it because i can't
cook or bake.  i'm not a good woodworker or gardener.  this is the only
guilded age craft that i can do well from teh armchair.  plus, there is
something about being able to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

 -steve hanlon


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Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 08:19:10 -0400
From: "Walter H. Lewis III" <wlewis at alliedlogistics.com>
Subject: RE: QDs

Alan! Bite your tongue. I removed the cross with a dremel tool years ago
and haven't had a bit of trouble. GO for it!!

Walt

Date: Tue,  3 Jun 2003 07:39:05 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: QDs

Several guys in our club have these QDs
http://plastics.newageindustries.com/snpflxmn.asp
made from polysulfone.  They work well except that there are
crosshairs in the middle, and gunk (whole hops) can get trapped
on the crosshairs and clog the line.  Nobody has yet been brave
enough to cut out the crosshairs to see if all remains in order.

cheers,
 -Alan



- --
Walt Lewis
Huntington WV
[6793.4, 10.8] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:35:12 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Reproduction and Brewing

I can see it now. The very concerned homebrew shop owner, " Children?  They
are highly overrated time suckers and they can be destructive too!  Do you
really want to worry about your carboys?  When do you think you will find
time to brew?  What if you have to change one after the cooling, but before
pitching?  You won't believe the infection that can cause.  Just try to go
to a homebrew club meeting when she is 8.5 months along.  If you can't brew,
who will be making your beer, some stranger?  Take a look at our
prophylactic display.  We just started with a new line that has some very
interesting textures and colors."

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:10:20 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE:  The future of homebrewing

If we could accurately predict the future I wouldn't be working but brewing
much more often.  But reading some of the responses feel compelled to
address Dan's question as well.  First, things like hobbies are affected by
a number of factors.  Government policies like taxes tend to drive people to
homebrew or not depending on the affect the taxes have on our pocketbooks.
Recently states have been short on cash so a number of them have been
raising taxes in a number of ways and the tax on beer is one of them, at
least here in PA.  So this will tend to encourage homebrewing.  The
availability of good craft brewed beer is more prevalent than it was 10 and
15 years ago so for those that brew to get beer that they couldn't buy
locally, this will tend to hurt homebrewing.  One writer said that as we get
older, family, kids and other pressures on our time will diminish our
homebrewing.  I agree.  But every year there are more people turning 21 so
that the future of homebrewing is in getting new people into the hobby.  On
the average an American is involved in his or her hobby for 7 years.  Some
people may have the same hobby for a lifetime and others will drop it after
a year or less.  There will be turn-over, for a number of reasons; it's only
natural and not limited to homebrewing.  Getting new people into any hobby
is the only hope to propagate the hobby.   More disposable income and free
time will allow people to try this hobby.  Certainly technology will impact
the future of our hobby.  There will continue to be those of us who want to
tinker with the equipment.  Lower prices for technology that simplifies the
brewing process and time for brewing will help drive more people into buying
this technology and brewing.  RIMS and HERMS are relatively new to
homebrewing.  What will be next?  Beer is today a batch process -- perhaps
the next innovation will the continuous process for beer.  Continually feed
ingredients in one end and beer ready to drink comes out the other end.  The
research for this at the commercial level is well underway.   It would be
interesting to speculate on how this affects home brewing.  The
globalization of markets will impact homebrewing.  Perhaps not so much in
the US where we are blessed with a rich assortment of ingredients and
equipment.  But as other world markets open up to homebrewing, this has the
potential to drive innovation and to lower costs as volume increases.  This
should have a positive impact on homebrewing in the US as well eventually.
Finally, I'm a firm believer in the evolution of things, not the revolution.
I don't see the hobby taking a step function in either direction but rather
it will be cyclic as new brewers come into the hobby and some experienced
brewers leave the hobby.  

Dave Houseman


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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:06:07 -0400 
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: Re: Long term future of Homebrewing

Paul Mahoney says:
>This hobby is expensive and demanding.  The rewards
>are great, but often inconsistent  (I still make a
>batch that is not very good).  It is much easier to
>buy a decent microbrew from the local grocery chain.

Then, No Spam Bill says:
>Expenses can be cut by doing all grain instead of extract,
>and making much of your own equipment, as many here have
>done.  Everybody makes a bad batch occasionally, you just
>hope it doesn't happen TOO often.

Now I say:
Are the ones saying that homebrewing is too expensive and
demanding the same ones that buy $800-$1000 sets of golf
clubs and play golf every weekend for 5 or 6 hours and shell 
out $35-$50 to do it?  Don't these guys have kids, too???

I'd rather stay home, drink homebrew, maybe cut the grass 
or wash the truck all while a nice 10 gallon batch of pilsner 
or pale ale is brewing on the patio and I'm doing this all with 
my wife!!!!  The equipment cost me maybe $400 and the 
10 gallon batch was about $20 total!!!  Come on, quit the 
whining, brew some beer, for crying out load!!!!!   

We make the beer we drink!!
Bob Barrett
(2.8, 103.6) Rennerian
He's coming to my house next Friday 
For the AABG meeting.  Pat, you coming??


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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:22:26 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE Kegging Carbonation Problem

Nils' kegging system is causing foam problems.

Nils, you need a longer beer line for dispensing at 20psi.  As you
decrease the diameter of your beer line and/or increase it's length
there is more resistance and a reduction in pressure.  At 20psi with
only 10" of line you're going to have gusher pours.  You need somewhere
around 6' of 3/16"ID line to serve at that pressure.  You could cut the
pressure down to about 5psi for serving, but then you'd have to wait for
it to settle.  You'd also have to re-pressurize when your serving
session is over in order to maintain the proper level of carbonation.
It's easier just to get a longer line.  

Temperature is a factor as well.  At about 45F you should be fine with
the 6' of 3/16 line.  If you are serving warmer you will need more line.
If colder you'll need less line.  Actually, at 45 degrees having 20psi
on the beer is a little high (unless you like highly carbonated beer).
I think the appropriate pressure for that temp is closer to 16 or 17psi.

I'm sure there's a formula or chart on all this somewhere.  I believe
Papazian's HB Companion has a section on draft serving dynamics.


Hope this helps,

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[215, 264.5] Apparent Rennerian
or
[24,683, 84.5] in the opposite direction



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Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:58:52 +0100
From: davidedge at hsbc.com
Subject: John Harrison and Durden Park: Old British Beers and how to make them

The third and final edition of this was published last week. If you want to
make "authentic" British beers from the period up to 1914 this is an most
useful reference. Over 100 recipes compiled from brewery records and tested
by the Durden Park Brewing Circle over the last 30 years. If you have the
second edition, the "how to make them" bit is not greatly changed, but all
but a couple of the recipes are different.

The Beverage People in Santa Rosa, CA have some copies

No affiliation

David Edge
Signalbox Brewey, Derby, UK




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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kegging Carbonation Problem

Nils Hedglin reports carbonation problems:

>> ...I attach the CO2 & set it to 20 psi.  I then leave it in the 
>> frig for about a week.  Both batches I've done this with have been
>> all head when poured.  

>> While pouring, I've tried leaving it at 20 psi & turning 
>> it down to 10 psi.  I get the same results as described 
>> got both settings.  

Unsurprising!  It's way overcarbonated.  And the serving pressure 
is probably much too high for that short run of line you have.

The pedant in me notes that you did not specify that you
bled off the 20 psi pressure as you "turn it down" to 10 psi.
If you have a one-way valve in your regulator, you'll still be
serving at 20 psi due to the pressure left in the keg.  Yikes!
Swooooosh-fizzzz!

(I assume it's on the 20 psi with the CO2 attached during the
whole time it's in the fridge?  If not, then you won't have
enough CO2 from a small head space to carbonate the beer unless
you keep topping it up repeatedly, and when you do hook it up
and try to serve it at 10/20 psi, you can end up with flat,
undercarbonated "spray beer".)

In any case, according to my handy carbo table that I keep 
in my wallet (you do keep one in your wallet, don't you?), 
if your fridge is set at 40 F and pressure at 20 psi, then
your beer will stabilise at about 3.2 vols CO2, which is 
at the top of the range, even for Weissbier.  If you are 
at 35 F, you're off my chart -- definitely too much CO2!

You probably ought to be storing it at 10-15 psi and (especially
with your short tap line) serving it about 3-6 psi or so.  

If you've got too much carbonation already in your beer, it might
take some days of occasional venting to get the beer and head 
pressure down to a decent level, if you start with a lot of CO2
already in the beer.  But once it stabilises at the above values, 
you ought to be pouring a lot better.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:10:42 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Future of Beer

Paul Mahoney Says:
>In 2050 Pres. Chelsea Clinton's administration bans beer due to its 
>adverse health effects, and by 2100 we will have beer tablets: just 
>drop in water and it will any make style you want.

Actually, this has already happened to some extent.  A Zymurgy issue
from 
a few months ago reported that some college student had made powered
beer, 
primarily for them to use on camping trips, but they are thinking of 
marketing it.

Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA
[1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian
In Heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here,
And when we're gone from here, our friends will be drinking all the
beer.


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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:43:11 -0500 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Bill's views

Our resident curmudgeon Bill Wible writes:

> If the brewers don't support their local shops, the shops
> don't make money, and yes, they end up going out of business. 
> The hot weather months are coming now - June, July, and 
> August which are the worst months for the homebrew shops, 
> because NOBODY BREWS.  The weather is too nice, everybody 
> goes outside or to the shore, etc.  This is when alot of 
> shops lose their shirt and go out of business.

Umm, guess that makes me a nobody? As soon as my bag of wheat comes in, I'll
be having another go at a Wit. Probably get some kind of lager started soon,
too. You know that lines wives always try out, "If you really loved me..."?
Well, IMO, if you really loved brewing, you would brew in the summer, too.
Maybe that'll shame a few people into pulling their gear out of storage.
Anyway, I support my local brew shop. I also support on-line retailers. I
also go behind their backs and purchase wholesale or from non-brew related
vendors. Call me a brew slut, I don't care.

> 
> Winemaking also now accounts for better than half the sales
> at most shops.

Good, so cater to the wine kit makers and keep yourself in business. I don't
have a problem with my brew supplier staying afloat on the backs of people
who like crappy wine.

I have nothing to add on why people leave the hobby other than to say if you
quit brewing for reasons as trivial as family, well, maybe you just weren't
as committed to the hobby as much as you thought. ;-) (That's a joke, son, a
joke. Put down the flame thrower).
 
> 
> And any of
> you who support what the govt has done to tobacco better
> keep in mind that tomorrow it can be alcohol, coffee,
> or anything else the govt says is "bad for you".
> 
OK, Bill, now you've raised my hackles (whatever those are). This "slippery
slope" argument is so fallacious as to be laughable. Governments have not
outlawed tobacco, they have simply imposed restrictions on where it can be
used. There are fewer health concerns from urinating in public, yet we have
no problem accepting that restriction. My eating a big, greasy burger or
drinking a glass of beer is not going to cause liver disease or colon cancer
in the person sitting next to me. Adults have a right to kill themselves
anyway they want (although as someone whose health care system is supported
by my tax dollars, I think smokers should be charged user fees for
treatment). They do not have the right to kill others. I think most people
are coming around to accept this mind set (well, in the US and Canada
anyway, there's still a lot of stupid people around the globe). Obviously,
we still have a few holdouts here, as well.

Anyway, I'm not saying prohibition of alcohol can't happen. I'm just saying
it will be the fanaticism of the Loony Majority more than what is going on
with Big Tobacco.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:43:53 -0400
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: Nils' Kegging Problem

All -



Nils Hedglin laments inconsistent carbonation and foamy beers in his kegging
system...



Nils, welcome to the frustrating world of first time kegging...  I went
through this some time ago, so let me try to at least share some of my
experiences in hopes they'll help you...



One word to remember when kegging:  BALANCE.  Balance both sides of the
equation (gas in and liquid out) and you'll be fine.  Sound too simple to be
true?  It is.  The only trick is how to set it up (you knew there'd be a
caveat, right?)  OK, that said, here's how I do it.



The aim of any good draft system is twofold:  to have consistent and
style-accurate carbonation levels, and to have a set-and-forget system that
doesn't require mucking about with.  The first thing to think about when
kegging is what kind of refrigeration container you have.  Most folks have a
refrigerator (I use a converted chest freezer).  If possible, control that
fridge with an external temp controller like a Johnson Controls, or better,
a Ranco digital type.  If you have a fridge, these provide more pinpoint
control over temps than the built in 1-9 dial, and if you have a freezer,
it's mandatory for obvious reasons.  Once you have that, figure out what
temp you want to serve the beer at.  Mine's in the low 40's because SWMBO
insists on storing wine and sodas and says my 48 degree ideal beer temp is
too warm.  You decide what's right for you.



All liquids absorb a given level of CO2 at a given temp.  The lower the
temp, the more CO2 will go into solution at a set PSI.  Once you nail down a
temp, pull up one of the many carbonation charts available to us (maybe
someone can help me out with a link here, I've lost mine) and decide how
many volumes of CO2 you want your beer to be carbonated to.  I've settled on
about 2.4 volumes.  Since I share one CO2 pressure among all my beers, I
have to pick a happy medium.  Yes, it's too low for Hefes and too high for
Irish Stouts, but overall it works.  Find your temp and the carb level in
volumes on the chart, and it'll tell you what the PSI setting should be on
your regulator.  I've got mine set to about 12.5-13 PSI.  Hook that PSI up
to your beers at that temp and leave it for a week and I guarantee you'll
have good carbonation, unless your system leaks CO2 around any of the seals
(I've had that too.say goodbye to a tank of gas..).  That's the GAS IN side.



Now the LIQUID OUT side.  Once again, BALANCE.  To prevent foaming, the
resistance offered by the 3/16" tubing should roughly equal the pressure of
the gas in side.  In my case, that's putting 13 lbs of resistance in the
tubing from the keg to the faucet.  Since 3/16" tubing has 2.2 lbs of
resistance per foot, we need 13 divided by 2.2, or 5.9 feet.  I rounded up
to 6 feet.



So, I have 13 lbs of CO2 in and 6 feet of 3/16" tubing out, and at my
freezer temp of 42 degrees I get perfect carbonation every time, no foam and
set-and-forget simplicity.  Ah, kegging is fun!



Hope this helps!

Jay Spies

Charm City Altobrewery

Baltimore, MD



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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:21:06 -0700
From: "Richard S. Sloan" <rssloan at household.com>
Subject: looking for pub info?

Someone mentioned having trouble with pubcrawler.com when looking for pub
info for Columbus, Ohio
I've received the same message the last few days too. An good alternative
choice is the Beerfly section at http://beeradvocate.com/beerfly

Cheers!

Richard in San Diego, CA
http://beeradvocate.com/user/profile/xlperro/




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Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 13:10:30 -0400
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: "Poor man's RIMS"




Hi all,

    Ben Rodman asks about using a pump and a burner to make a "poor
man's RIMS" out a 1/2 barrel keg.  Ben, this works quite well for gentle
temperature rises, as long as you have a burner that adjusts well
enough.  It's not as good for jumping from proteolysis temperatures
to saccharification, but this is another good reason to skip protein
rests, eh?  You don't need a high-tech return manifold at all.  I just
clamp my flexible tubing to the top of the mash tun and flow into a
stainless steel collander.  Others do the same with a bowl or a pizza
pan on top of the mash.  As long as you can avoid the flow from
recirculation digging too deep a whole in the grain bed, you'll be
fine.

    This "semi-RIMS" approach is also very nice for getting uniform
mash temperatures, something the pure infusers seem to be struggling
with, if recent HBD traffic is any indication.  There are a few small
details to attend to in setting up and using such a RIMS system,
though:
        1) Be sure to have a reliable valve at the outlet of the pump,
to control the flow rate.  It's easy to collapse a false bottom if you
pump too fast and set the grain bed.  Sticky mashes (those with lots of
flaked adjuncts, lots of wheat, or using mash hops) can be a problem,
but using rice hulls when needed has fixed most of these issues for me.
Some folks use a grant to avoid this, but keeping the flow rate fairly
slow (just enough to get the temperature rise I want) works nicely for
me.
       2) It's difficult to do a dramatic rise (like from 104F to 150F)
just by recirculating and running the burner.  If I need a low
temperature rest, I'll dough in at the low temperature with a thick
mash, then infuse to the saccharification range.
        3) After dough in, be sure to let the grain bed set up for a
while before recirculating.  When recirculation starts, you might get a
small amount of draff running through the pump, but as long as you can
keep the valve clear, it should clear up nicely.

     Overall, it's a very inexpensive and easy way to get the benefits of
a RIMS without all the electronic or plumbing worries that an electric
RIMS or HERMS involves.  You get very accurate and uniform mash
temperatures, easy temperature rises and crystal clear kettle runoff.

	Give it a try, Ben.  You'll enjoy it.


                                        Paul Shick
                                        Cleveland Heights, OH





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Date: Wed,  4 Jun 2003 14:22:19 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: QDs correction


Well, my buddy with the QDs read the HBD today for the first time in
months, coincidentally (his ears must have been tingling) and told me
that these are not the ones he has, though they do look identical to them.
Not sure if the ones in question have the crosshairs or not in the
middle.  My buddy wonders why he's the only one that never has problems
with them.

The ones the folks in our club (including him) use are
from Colder Products Company.

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site


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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:47:07 -0800
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Re: 58,000 btu's

On or thereabout 6/4/03, Mark Kellums spoke thusly:
>whether or not 58,000 btu's would be adequate for boiling 5 or 10 gallons
>batches?

I'm using a 50-somthing-K btu burner for my five gallon batches. It 
takes its sweet time getting the wort up to a boil, so if you're 
going for maximum efficiency, you might want a bigger burner... but 
once it's up to a boil, it works just great.

Don't know about a 10 gallon batch, but I'm sure some 
bigger-is-better types will be along to tell you it won't work for 5 
gallons in the first place. ;-)
- -- 
Teresa - Two Rivers, Alaska [2849, 325] Appt. Rennerian
visit http://rant.mivox.com/ - mostly stuff and nonsense
"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices
have very few virtues."  -- Abraham Lincoln


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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:02:09 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Picking a mill / Winemaking / brewing and time factors

Greetings-
	I see the mill thread has come up (again).  Well, here's the poop.  No 
mill will give you a better crush than any of the other mills 
available.  Heresy?  'fraid not.  Due to the mechanics of size 
reduction, ANY SINGLE PASS ROLLER MILL WILL GIVE A SIMILAR SIZE 
DISTRIBUTION.  Now I know that George Fix once posted data that said 
the size distribution from one mill was identical to the six roller 
mill, but no one seems to be able to tell me exactly how to do it.  
I've asked.  Fix couldn't (or wouldn't) tell me how to do it and the 
manufacture can't (or won't) give the details either.  Without such 
details, I ignore the data.  	
	So, you have several good mills out there that will work, you just 
have to choose.  For a homebrewer grinding up to 50 lbs at once, the 
throughput issues are comical at best - as throughput increases, so 
does the required torque to run them.  Well known mills may have 9 inch 
rollers, but nowhere near the full length is used for that reason.  
(Yes, I'm aware of the claims made by some manufacturers and they are 
wrong)  I've used different mills and put the grist into sieve shakers 
just for the h*ll of it.  No significant difference from any of them, 
except the Corona, which is no surprise since its a flour mill anyway.  
Anybody want my old Corona mill?
	I still use a PhilMill I and see no reason to upgrade.  No, the husks 
aren't torn, my beers aren't full of tannins and I routinely get about 
30 extraction points per pound of grist - occasionally as low as 28.   
If I were upgrading or buying a new one, I'd get the PhilMill II 
because Dan Listermann is a large supporter of our local club (and the 
other homebrew club in town too!) and he deserves my business (more on 
that below).  He's also never told anybody they were a d*ck on the 
digest or other brewing forms.  He's told me I'm one in person, but 
that's how it goes   ;)

	So - pick one.  No mill will let you make better beer than any other.
- ----------------------
Which brings me to the lament for the local homebrew shop.....
Bill  <nospam at brewbyyou.net> writes:

> Winemaking also now accounts for better than half the sales
> at most shops.

Winemaking is quick and easy - essentially, you fill the carboy and you 
are done.  The currently available kits make acceptable wine and I've 
noted that most homebrewers don't have experienced wine palates and 
think that the wine is great.  It does compare well to $7 bottles 
available, but I don't drink many $7 bottles of wine.  What can I say, 
I was a wine geek way before I was a beer geek (back when I was 
childless!).  I often wonder if making wine for spouses earns some 
homebrewers brewing credit....  Anybody?
- -----------------------
Bill also writes:
>  The answer, obviously, is not to discourage people from
> having children so they can brew, but to find out WHY these
> people have such a hard time finding the time to brew.

Why do people with children have trouble finding time to brew?  Is that 
really a mystery or are you childless and have no friends with kids?  
With a family comes obligations - yes - sports, school events, birthday 
parties, music lessons, play dates and it only gets busier as your 
child grows.  And from what I can tell, my kids aren't nearly as 
scheduled as most kids (but that's another topic entirely!)  Then there 
are issues like playing with, reading to and otherwise interacting with 
your kids.  It takes up an enormous amount of time.  Brewing requires 
relatively large uninterrupted blocks of time - on the order of 6 hours 
from start to finish.  Many of my kids' events don't take up large 
blocks, but they take chunks out of the middle of days and that can 
make it really tough to try to work in brewing.  Sure, I could start 
brewing at bedtime on a weekend, finish at 3 a.m. or so and then still 
get roused by my son at 7 a.m. but I'd rather not.

It comes down to the fact that brewing is something I WANT to do, but 
not something I HAVE to do.  I can afford to buy good beers so I do 
when homebrew supplies get low.  I also have other hobbies and 
interests that are easy to fit in.  I'm not going to go back to extract 
brewing, so I brew when I can.  And fitting it in becomes harder and 
harder as other things in life compete for my time.

Since all grain brewing is a big time commitment, you have to accept 
that the single and the childless are the ones that will always brew 
the most.  I'm not knocking people's life choices, I'm stating the 
facts.  Having kids is a huge obligation and drain on your time.  If it 
isn't, you shouldn't be a parent.  I'm not complaining about my life - 
but I do get annoyed when people are stunned that I can't commit 
weekends for brewing or related activities.

The quick answer to Bill's WHY question:  Because they are busy being 
parents.

Dave Harsh 				Parent of 2, spouse of 1	
Cincinnati, Ohio			Bloatarian Brewing League



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Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 12:53:49 -0700
From: David Wilbur <dave at infolure.com>
Subject: Re: Kegging Carbonation Problem

Nils:

Here is the process I use to force carbonate in cornelius kegs (which works 
well on my setup):

First, keg the beer.  I usually put a little C02 in at this point just to 
make sure that any air is purged, but I don't turn up the pressure yet.

Next, I chill the beer to serving temperature.  My experience is that warm 
beer does not carbonate well.  This takes about 24 hours or so in my 
refrigerator.

Now that the beer is cold, I turn up the pressure to 35 PSI and leave it 
there for 35 hours.  24 hours never seems to be enough and at about 48 
hours it is over carbonated for my taste.  I have carbonated single kegs 
and as many as three kegs simultaneously and it worked just as well.  Be 
conservative, it is easier to turn up the pressure again than warm the beer 
and bleed off the excess CO2.  Turn down the pressure occasionally and pour 
a glass to see where things are at until you have the hang of it.

There are, of course, charts with things like volume of beer, temperature, 
CO2 pressure, etc. that can tell you exactly what to set the pressure at 
and how long to leave it.  I find these sorts of things tedious and they 
don't seem to make the beer that much better.  I like my 35/35 method 
because it's simple, easy to remember, and it works for me.  YMMV.

Once the beer is carbonated, I turn the pressure down to about 5-6 psi for 
serving.  If it is a little too foamy, I turn the pressure down another 1-2 
PSI.

Based on my experiences, I would say that 20 PSI for five days is way too 
much.  Besides, who wants to wait five more days to start drinking their beer!

Good Luck,

David

P.S.  To fix your over carbonated beer, just warm it up (room temp.) and 
bleed off the excess CO2.



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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 16:48:41 -0400
From: Jim Larsen <jal7 at cox.net>
Subject: Homebrewing time and expense


Paul Mahoney and Bill Nospam posted on the future of 
homebrewing and made (at least) two interesting points:

 -Addition of children to the family tends to distract a 
homebrewer from his or her avocation.

 -Homebrewing is an expensive hobby.

Regarding familial distractions, it's true that the presence
of very young children makes homebrewing all but impossible.
It seems every spare moment of the day is taken up. However,
once the little beggars are old enough to amuse themselves
for a few hours at a time, homebrewing is an ideal hobby,
have to work as it is done at home. True, you still
around soccer and band practice, but there are still
hours at a time at home one can be brewing. It does not take
your full attention for the 3-8 hours you're at it. With a
little organization, it can be worked in.

Regarding expense, homebrewing is cheap. How many other
hobbies can you get into for $100 with all new equipment?
(Considerably less if you buy used or scavenge.) What does a
set of golf clubs or a decent camera go for? And besides,
as beer brewers, we're all beer drinkers. If we didn't brew,
we would be spending more money of beer someone else brewed.
As far as hobbies go, homebrewing is a bargain.

Jim Larsen
Omaha, NE
635, 267.9 R




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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 16:54:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Summer brews

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

To Monsieur Wible, I must say: when I brew - when i had time to
brew - "back in the day" - I brewed almost exclusively in the
summer. It was a summer activity to fill my larder with lagers
(well, ales, actually, but "larder" and "lager" go together
better than "larder" and "ale"). In any case, I was always
bumping into similar folk in the shops - was never
lonely. Oddness, hey?


- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:14:02 -0400
From: Donald Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: RE: The Long Term Future of Homebrewing

"Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> asked this question:

What will Homebrewing be like in 2025, 2050, 2100?
- ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   --- 

(This reminds me of the song by Zaeger and Evans "In the
year 2525)

I would guess at some point we would push a button--no--just
speak to our replicator and tell it we want a Guinness. 

Or, a more advanced model might allow us to explain how much
bitterness, what SRM, what grains, a style, etc. and let it
give us samples in a spectrum to choose from and then set
our preference in memory for future use.

An even later/better model would allow us to read it a
recipe/procedure and it would give us what we would have
gotten if we did things under ideal conditions.

In the future, we won't have any time left for things we
like to do except to eat or drink. The more we advance, the
faster we go through life, the less time we have for things
we'd like to do. Sometimes looking at the Mennonites and
Amish it looks like we lost a lot as we advanced in
technology. This leads us to . . .

There would be a homebrew rebellion at some point, a sort of
religious approach to doing lots of things by hand
(including making homebrewed beer) like the aforementioned
religious groups. No more packaged foods for these people,
no more trips to McDonalds for morning coffee, no more
commercial bottled beer or use of replicators.

I could go on and on, but for sake of brevity here, I'll
leave the rest up to your imagination.

Donald Hellen



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---