---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Orval ("Peter Myers")
  homebrew consumption poll ("Ian Watson")
  Re: brew shops near [Marina Del Rey] CA ("Kent Fletcher")
  Re: hbd post ("Jim Yeagley")
  shipping alcohol ("Dave Burley")
  A question of style and ingredients ("Chip Bulla")
  re Shipping/Mailing Beer (Bill_Rehm)
  AHA Conference Attendance & Pub Crawl ("Martin Brungard")
  Cheap Buffers ("A.J. deLange")
  pH solutions (mas4786)
  Re: mailing beer (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  RE: a little power... (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: Chicago next week (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Regional American Styles (Ted Teuscher)
  Re: Mailing Beer ("Troy A. Wilson")
  RE: Mailing Beer ("Mike Sharp")
  NHC conference ("Rob & Robin Beck")
  re:  mailing beer ("Jim Yeagley") ("Mike Bronosky")
  Re: Conditioning Scotch Ale in a Virgin Barrel (Robert Sandefer)
  RE: AHA Conference ("Leonard, Phil")
  burnt rubber smell -- yeast culture ("Janie Curry")
  Bamberger Brewery Museum ("Fred Scheer")


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:51:05 +1000
From: "Peter Myers" <myerspeter at bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Orval

    On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:35:13 -0400, Joel Gallihue reflected on the taste
of Orval.
    I had been a Belgian fan for quite a while when I tasted my very first
Orval, and have not had one since! A few years ago Belgian beers were quite
difficult to find in Australia, and for many months prior to the experience
I had been reading and listening to others expound upon the virtues of the
brew. After several months I was shocked to see it stocked at a nearby
liquor store. My impression upon tasting it was; "Aptly named! This stuff is
bloody Orval!!" It tasted all the world like dishwashing liquid, and it was
an experience I have not been quick to repeat. Now I realise that in all
likelihood, the bottle was old and the beer had fallen from it's last legs
many months prior to my opening it and with this in mind, I will probably
force myself to buy another one for comparisons sake when next I see it on
the shelf. But as far as first impressions go, it was a memory I will always
remember ... for all the wrong reasons.

Cheers,
Pete



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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:10:17 -0400
From: "Ian Watson" <realtor at niagara.com>
Subject: homebrew consumption poll

Hello all

I was reading the digest the other day and someone mentioned the amount of
homebrew they consume daily and I got to thinking how this hobby of ours
supplies is with almost unlimited booze and I was wondering if I was not
alone in my daily drinking.  So I ask:  How much homebrew do we swallow on
an average day?  My answer would be 2 to 4 pints.

Ian Watson
St. Catharines, Canada
Rennerian co-ordinates to be recalculated.



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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:29:55 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Re: brew shops near [Marina Del Rey] CA

Braam asked about:

> There is a small chance that I will visit nearby the following :
> Marina Del Rey, CA
> If you know of a good Homebrew shop nearby pls send me the name/URL.
> Any shop within quick shipping distance is also o.k.

Braam, the Culver City Home Brewin Supply Co,  http://www.brewsupply.com/ is
about four miles from MDR, and very easy to find.  It's the host shop for
the Pacific Gravity http://www.pacificgravity.com/ club.  The Homebrew club
scene is pretty active in Southern California, with four good sized and very
active clubs including the Maltose Falcons http://www.maltosefalcons.com/
Strand Brewers http://www.strandbrewers.org/ Long Beach Homebrewers
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/geldridge/lbh.htm and the
aforementioned P.G., all in the greater L.A. area, and not to mention a few
smaller, less active clubs.  Should CCHBS not have something you need, the
Home Beer, Wine and Cheesemaking Shop is just over the hill in the Valley
(with a great selection of malts, hops and yeasts).  Usual disclaimers
apply.

Kent Fletcher,
Brewing in So Cal




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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:07:03 -0400
From: "Jim Yeagley" <jyeag at core.com>
Subject: Re: hbd post


- ----- Original Message -----
> Dear Mr.Postal Inspector,
>
> You sound like a weenie to me.

Well, I'm no inspector, just a mail processing equipment mechanic who's been
scared sh#tless a few too many times by false "white powder in envelope"
alarms, got me a little on edge.   I suppose I could be considered a weenie,
though.

>But then what should I expect from
> an employee of a government-mandated monopoly with huge tax
> breaks, exorbitant costs, high debt levels, low productivity,
> shrinking revenues, no incentive to innovate, no incentive to
> lower costs, no incentive to improve service, and no incentive to
> improve productivity ... but lots of incentive for rate hikes.
> And there is that pseudo-governmental status.

Whew!  I'm shocked you left out the part about the firearms, etc.  Heard 'em
all, still get a kick out of 'em!

 >I will lie to you
> and your 800,000 coworkers as often as possible ... especially if
> I am shipping homebrew.

 ...and there's nothing I can do about it.  Thanks.

Jim Yeagley




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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:22:43 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: shipping alcohol

Brewsters:

I really wonder about the  ill-legality of shipping alcohol by common carrier.
I know wine is shipped interstate to those states willing to accept it.

Can someone define the regulation?

Is it possible the carriers don't want to do it?

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:54:25 -0400
From: "Chip Bulla" <chip_bulla at hotmail.com>
Subject: A question of style and ingredients

Hello fellow brewers!

I wanted to get some feedback from the collective, in particular, the 
certified beer judges in the group.  But before I get to my question, a bit 
of background info.  When I first got into brewing, the third batch I had 
ever made was of my own creation (I made up a recipe from scratch).  I added 
what I had in stock at the time, in terms of hops, which consisted of 
Hallertauer and Tetnanger, and made an ale.  It turned out to be one of my 
best, if not the best beers I've ever made.  My wife, who is not a big beer 
drinker, loved it so much that she always wants me to make it again.  Now, I 
have been reading the style guidelines recently (both AHA and BJCP), in 
addition to information on ingredients, and note that the noble hops I used 
are traditionally used in lagers.  Also, the style guidelines do not always 
mention the types of hops typically used for a particular style.  So my 
question is hopefully simple -- how do you determine which ingredients to 
use, in order to make a certain style, when general examples of traditional 
ingredients are not always mentioned?  Secondly, given the fact that I did 
use traditional lager hops to make an ale, how can I determine the style for 
that particular beer?  Some of the other vital stats for the beer in 
question were as follows:

OG 1.050
FG 1.010
Approximate IBU 38-40
Approximate Color 12-14

In the past, when anyone ever asked what kind of beer it was, I always told 
them it was an ale and left it at that.  However, if I ever considered 
entering this into a competition, what category would it be entered under? 
Any comments or opinions are welcomed.  Thanks in advance.


Chip Bulla
Apex NC
[525.8,147.7] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:57:42 -0500
From: Bill_Rehm at eFunds.Com
Subject: re Shipping/Mailing Beer

If shipping/mailing beer is "illegal" how does the Beer of the month club
send me beer every month?

L. William Rehm
Offline Development
Phone: 414-341-5732




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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:07:01 -0400
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com>
Subject: AHA Conference Attendance & Pub Crawl

You bet I'll be at the conference.  It was obvious almost a year ago that
this was going to be a stellar event.  

One disappointing distraction is that the pub crawl is sold out.  I see that
the Chicago Beer Society (CBS) has put together a nice night that includes
some food and transportation arrangements.  I assume that the food and
return-trip bus capacity is what is limiting the number of people they can
include in the event.  

The good thing is that their capacity limitation will not deter us.  Those
interested in tagging along with the pub crawl should also meet near the
conference registration desk at the hotel at 5 pm on Wednesday.  That's also
when the 'real' pub crawl meets.  Tag-alongs will have to make their own
transportation arrangements (i.e. buy their own CTA pass), buy their own
food, and buy their own beer.  It might be a little more expensive this way,
but what the heck, this is a vacation!  

I see that the one-day CTA passes are $5 and you can buy one at the Rosemont,
O'Hare, or Midway CTA stations (or others).  I assume that the CBS has
garnered some special food and beer deals with the various breweries and
taverns.  We'll probably lose out on those, oh well!  I suppose you should
remember to bring your shiny new Rock Bottom VIP card on this trip so that
you can get a nice deal at that place.

So, don't despair if you missed signing up for the pub crawl.  You can still
enjoy the night with your beer 'buds' (oops, I mean beer 'celebrators') on
your own pub crawl.  

Less than a week to go! 

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:20:07 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Cheap Buffers

Well, blood is pretty tightly buffered between 7.2 and 7.3 if I remember 
correctly (don't hyperventilate before applying the leeches). A solution 
of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in distilled (or otherwise DI) water 
will be at 8.3 but the buffering capacity is minimum there. Boiled 
deionized water has a pH of 7 but no buffering capacity, will pick up 
CO2 from the air (causing the pH to drop fairly rapidly) and is hard to 
read because of low ionic strength. I suppose addition of some table 
salt would solve the last problem.

After a little more thinking it occured to me that beer, mega-commercial 
beer that is, would probably come out of the bottling plant with pH 
pretty tightly controlled IOW succesive lots of Bud from the Van Nuys AB 
plant, e.g.,  ought to have pretty close to the same pH and a pH at the 
low end of the span you'd want to calibrate your meter for. I don't know 
what that pH is but if you could find that out by measuring a few sample 
with a good, calibrated meter it ought to work.

The whole excercise may be mooted by the fact that the kind of pH 
accuracy required in brewing is such that a "checker" calibrated with 
salt water and beer may not be of much value.

A.J.



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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:12:21 -0500
From: mas4786 <mas4786 at nebrwesleyan.edu>
Subject: pH solutions

How precise is your pH meter (i.e. what decimal point will it precisely 
measure the pH to?).  If you bought a nice pH meter that has decent precision 
it would defeat the point to calibrate it crappy and if you don't use the lab 
tested standards more than likely that is what is going to happen.  What I did 
was buy the expensive stuff and just put it in a tupperware container and 
reuse it.  Mine has lasted over a year and I still have solution.  Otherwise 
check ebay; there are all kinds of lab products on there.

Marc



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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:19:21 -0400
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: Re: mailing beer

I like Chad Stevens' thoughts on mailing beer and trying to change the laws
to make it legal for competitions.  I also understand the position of the
AHA.  I was one of the members that brought up the issue back in 2001 at the
NHC in L.A.  One other person in Congress that has backed homebrewing is
Representative Jim Moran of Virginia.  I read on the MCAB website that he
sponsored the opening reception at this year's event in the Cannon House
Office Building Caucus Room on Capitol Hill.  May be someone worth having in
the conversation.  Probably someone from the BURP club knows him.

We make the beer we drink!!
Bob Barrett
(2.8, 103.6) Rennerian
He'll be at my house on Friday for the AABG meeting.


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:26:50 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: a little power...


> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:51:40 -0400
> From: "Jim Yeagley" <jyeag at core.com>
> Subject: re:  mailing beer
> 
> That's exactly the kind of thing the Postal Inspectors love 
> to do!  If you must break rules, it is important to know that 
> the USPS rules are actually federal law.  For whatever reason 
> the laws were originally written, their overall purpose is to 
> protect the mail, the customers, and the employees. I, the 
> Postal Inspection Service, and my 800,000 coworkers take 
> these rules pretty seriously.

Protection, huh? Well, I guess it's that 'slippery slope' argument that I
can never fully grasp. First one bottle of beer gets through, then another,
before you know it, the World Trade Center is coming down.

This way of thinking reminds me of an episode of Hill St Blues (still the
best cop show ever made, IMO):

Lt Hunter makes some joke about some upcoming elections, prompting an angry
outburst from Sgt Jablonski.

Jablonski: When it comes to the electoral process, Sgt Stan Jablonski has
ZERO sense of humour.

Hunter (soto voce): Hmmm, neck and neck with your IQ...

Well, keep making the world safe from fermented beverages, Jim. I realize
you are only following orders.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:35:19 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Chicago next week


Jeff Gladish asks who will be will be at [207.8, 265.3]  next week.

I will be there, and if I receive my HBD button on time I'll be wearing it.



Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian






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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:45:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ted Teuscher <t_teuscher at yahoo.com>
Subject: Regional American Styles

To AHA Board Members:

I was pondering the possibility of the AHA undertaking
the task of creating several committees (even though I
hate that word and all it stands for) of volunteers to
establish guidelines for regional American brews. Why
should we always assume we have to brew beer that was
influenced by mostly European geographical and
historical factors? I think it is time that guidelines
be defined for beer styles that would have been
created had brewers lived in North America for
thousands of years. I know there are already a few
(California Steaam Beer, CAPs, American IPA) but even
these styles I think are simple modifications of
European recipes (somebody will probably point out how
wrong I am about this) that were influenced by
European settlers/immigrants.

USA could be divided into many regions where soil
types, types of hops and grain that would have been
grown in that region, temperature of the region, water
quality, yeast strains perhaps, etc would define its
style. Each region could be assigned its own committee
to establish what the guidelines for their beer will
be. I would like to emphasize that European
immigration influences should be ignored as much as
common sense would allow and the style based upon
other factors. In other words, just because many
Central Europeans immigrated to the Central USA
doesn't mean the beer style for Central USA should
immitate a German Wheat Beer, although it still may if
the committee determined factors would dictate a
similar style.

I think this would be a fun and educational activity
for many homebrew clubs around the country. The AHA
could even publish a book after a year or two once the
styles have been defined that lists the factors for
determining each regions guidelines and suggest basic
recipes for each style.

I am thinking about USA mostly (since I am a citizen)
but other countries could obviously follow suit. We
could vastly expand the beer style repertoire.

Just a thought.

Cheers,
Ted




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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:55:23 -0500
From: "Troy A. Wilson" <troy at troyandjulia.com>
Subject: Re: Mailing Beer

How does the "Beer/Wine of the Month Club" do it? Don't they ship
beer/wine to your doorstep?

Troy A. Wilson
troy at troyandjulia.com

There are only 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary and those who don't.

- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 6/5/2003
 



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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:40:06 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Mailing Beer

Chad Stevens makes excellent points on legalizing the mailing of beer


"if we don't proactively fight to ensure our civil liberties, they become
eroded by virtue of our tacit consent."

This argument alone should be sufficient to get behind the lobbying of our
legislators.  Frankly, I don't see how arguing to make something legal can
do worse than keep it illegal (as it is in the first place).  Let's not
forget that homebrewing itself was illegal until someone (and I don't really
know who to credit) talked Alan Cranston into sponsoring a bill to legalize
it.  What would the state of our hobby be if the collective had shrunk from
the effort, worrying that raising the issue would only bring the illicit
practice of homebrewing to the light of scrutiny?  I pitched my first yeast
sometime around 1968, I think (ok, it was root beer)...has the statute of
limitations run out?


Regards,
Mike Sharp

Kent, Wa


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:43:36 -0500
From: "Rob & Robin Beck" <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: NHC conference

I'll be there. Be sure to stop by the KC Bier Meisters table on club night
and say hi.
Rob Beck




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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:00:57 -0700
From: "Mike Bronosky" <Mike at Bronosky.com>
Subject: re:  mailing beer ("Jim Yeagley")

>>My suggestion to homebrewers: ignore the shipping laws, whatever
>>they are. If someone at USPS/UPS/FedEX/etc. asks the contents of
>>a package, just lie. Nobody will break down your door for illegal
>>shipment of a few bottles of homebrew.

>Peter, Peter, Peter!
>
>That's exactly the kind of thing the Postal Inspectors love to do!  If you
>must break rules, it is important to know that the USPS rules are actually
>federal law.  For whatever reason the laws were originally written, their
>overall purpose is to protect the mail, the customers, and the employees.
>I, the Postal Inspection Service, and my 800,000 coworkers take these rules
>pretty seriously.

>Jim Yeagley

Sounds to me that we may have too many postal inspectors. Cut the postal
budget, especially the part that pays the postal inspectors.

I'm 100% against living in a police state. Probably the people that put
forth
the law that bands shipping of beer don't drink it in the first place, for
religious
reasons.

Mike



- ---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:45:03 -0400
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Re: Conditioning Scotch Ale in a Virgin Barrel

Jonathan Royce asks several questions about conditioning a virgin oak 
barrel with diluted bourbon.

First off, let me say that the following are my opinions and that I don't 
have practical experience with handling barrels. On the other hand, I have 
read a fair amount about brewing, distilling, etc...
So...

Jonathan, I think your ideas sound very plausible and you may indeed get a 
decent product using the approach you postulated.

However, it sounds iffy to me. As far as I know, barrels need to be kept 
absolutely full when they are holding/storing solutions with lower alcohol 
concentrations (i.e, less than 80 proof). Your method uses a 10% alcohol 
solution, so you would need to make sure it stays topped up or you risk 
acetobacter infection (which would ruin the barrel). Next, if I'm reading 
your message right, the diluted bourbon would be in the barrel for a few 
months. Most commercial aged distilled alcohols, including bourbon, are 
stored in barrels for years (2-3 years min). I doubt that enough flavor 
would be left in the barrel after so short a period. Lastly, I would not 
count on 10% alcohol to sterilize (or sanitize) much of anything. Before 
putting beer in there, I'd recommend a sulfite solution for this purpose.

If you want bourbon flavor in your beer, I would simply add a bottle of 
bourbon to it at bottling/kegging time. You wouldn't boil it obviously ;) 
and you might want to add more yeast at the same time to ensure adequate 
carbonation, unless you force carbonate.

The barrel is still useful for examining the effect of oak (and not 
bourbon) on beer. Speaking of which, I have an oaked porter to start.

If you don't already have it, Cider Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet & Hard 
Cider by Proulx & Nichols is a decent book and it talks about barrel care. 
I have no affiliation with the authord or publisher.

Sante.
Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA



 


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:05:52 -0500
From: "Leonard, Phil" <Phil.Leonard at dsionline.com>
Subject: RE: AHA Conference

Jeff wants to know who is going to the NHC:

I'll be there.

Philip
[612 251.4 AR] Overland Park, KS


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:41:40 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: burnt rubber smell -- yeast culture

Fellow Craft Brewers,
I recently purchased a stirring plate and now use it in conjunction with a 
HEPPA filter and an aquarium pump to aerate my yeast starters.  (I insert a 
HEPPA filter in the aeration line and feed the line through the stopper hole 
where the fermentation lock normally goes.) On one occassion, I pulled a 
flask from the refrigerator that contained a yeast slurry that had been 
stored under beer for a few months and stepped it up using 1/3 cup of DME 
boiled in one pint of water.  I added approximately 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon of 
yellow crystalline "yeast energizer" while boiling the DME and water.  I 
stirred and aerated for a few days and stepped it up again.  I brewed that 
weekend and when it came time to pitch the yeast slurry I unplugged the 
flask and immediately detected a STRONG burnt rubber smell.  I pitched it, 
then got worried, and pitched re-hydrated dry yeast an hour or so later.  
The beer tasted fine.  On the second occassion (this weekend), I stepped up 
a Wyeast pitchable German Ale yeast 1007 tube twice using the same 
technique.  Again, when I took the stopper off the flask the burnt rubber 
smell was quite offensive.  I pitched about 500ml of suspension and had 
fermentation activity in the airlock in about 2 hours.  A good strong even 
fermentation continues and the beer smells fine.

What's up?  I've never used "yeast energizer" in starter cultures.  Could 
that be the source of the smell?  Previous archive debates argue that burnt 
rubber smells do / do not result from autolyzed yeast.  Should I change my 
practice?

Todd in Idaho
(formerly, Todd in Turkey)



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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:04:08 -0500
From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads at msn.com>
Subject: Bamberger Brewery Museum

HI All:

If you like to see pictures from my recent trip to Germany's (Bamberger) 
Brauerei Museum, please go to

www.brewsbrothers.net

and follow the link.
If you like information how to become a member of the Museum and support the 
good cause of preserving Brewing and Malting History, please contact me.

Thanks for your time,

Fred Scheer, Braumeister
Boscos Nashville, Brewing Co.
The Restaurant for Beer Lovers 


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---