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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: pH Buffers (Rick Wood)
  Homebrew consumption survey, and another data point (Michael)
  Berliner Weisse question ("Patrick Twohy")
  Re: Conditioning Scotch Ale in a Virgin Barrel (davew)
  re:orval and consumption ("jim")
  Re: Regional American Styles ("Mark Tumarkin")
  re: burnt rubber smell in yeast culture ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Maintaining Orval (cboyer)
  MacOS X Brewing Software, OpenBrew (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Wood Flooring From Guinness Vats ("Andrew Moore")
  Re:Conditioning Scotch Ale in a Virgin Barrel (Jonathan Royce)
  Cancel messages (Matthew Prahlow)
  Leave Postal Inspectors Alone - Call Your Senator (Jonathan Royce)
  pH standards ("Todd M. Snyder")
  RE: burnt rubber smell -- yeast culture ("Joris Dallaire")
  RE: Regional American Styles (Ted Teuscher)
  Alcohol Shipment - Patchwork of Laws (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: A question of style and ingredients (Calvin Perilloux)
  re:  homebrew consumption poll ("micsmi at yahoo.com")
  Homebrew consumption, malt mills, females at AHA. (Bob Hall)
  re: Regional American Styles ("Tom M")
  Imperial Barley Wine (ensmingr)
  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Beer-flavored_Ice_Cream=3F__CHEERS!?= ("=?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Bristol?=")
  Re: Regional American Styles ("Tidmarsh Major")
  RE: homebrew consumption poll ("Leonard, Phil")
  Fw: mailing beer ("Chad Stevens")
  Fw: Style & Ingredients ("Rob & Robin Beck")
  Fw: Homebrew consumption ("Rob & Robin Beck")
  Homebrew consumption poll ("Eyre")
  Re: homebrew consumption poll (NO Spam)
  how much beer (aa8jzdial)
  2003 BUZZ Off Results and MCAB Qualifiers... ("Christopher Clair")


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:38:00 +1000
From: Rick Wood <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: Re: pH Buffers

Hi Byron and the group:

I run a university water quality laboratory.  Because of the nature of
regulatory work, things often "expire" before their useful life is
over.   Labs often have expired pH buffers that are still good, but
that because of regulatory requriments, cannot be used.

So, check various laboratories in your neighborhood to see if you can
score some expired buffers.  Hospital and Clinical Laboratories, EPA
Labs, and Water Utility Labs come to mind.  High School and College
chemistry departments may also have some.  Even if they have no
expired buffer, they willl probably give you enough to calibrate the
meter for some time.

Cheers,
Rick Wood
Brewing on Guam


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:38:11 -0500
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Homebrew consumption survey, and another data point

First, let me answer the homebrew survey. I have an average of 1-2
drinks of any kind a day. I like to have a drink with dinner, and I
might have a beer before I go to bed. On the weekends, I may get crazy
and have three or four drinks. None of that is written in stone.

As for the other data point, well, it looks like the person who wrote
the following has a much higher average consumption than I do.

 - ----- Original Message -----
> Dear Mr.Postal Inspector,
>
> You sound like a weenie to me.

[...]


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:40:48 -0700
From: "Patrick Twohy" <patrick at twohy.net>
Subject: Berliner Weisse question

Some days ago, Marc Sedam posted his recipe for Berliner Weisse, which I found
very interesting. I made a BW recently using the sour mash technique in 
Papazian's book. And since I've never had a commercial BW, I'm ignorant. 
But I can tell you, what I made is marvelously refreshing. 

I used about a 50/50 grist of wheat to barley, as Marc suggests. 
But that's rather outside what the BJCP styleguide suggests.
Despite listing BW as a wheat beer (Category 17C), BJCP says, "Wheat 
malt content is typically well under 50% of the grist..."

Is that really right? What sayeth the collective?
- --
Patrick Twohy



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:54:37 -0700
From: davew at gibraltar.com
Subject: Re: Conditioning Scotch Ale in a Virgin Barrel

I was trying to answer Jonathan Royce's questions about barrel
conditioning, but I sent in duplicate messages, then I deleted the wrong
one (most current).  Next, HBD.ORG deleted the other one (oldest) and
neither of the messages were posted.

Oh well, I guess I learned something new.

Anyway, Robert Sandefer posted a good reply that hit most of my points. 
I'll try not to repeat what he said but here are some details that were
lost from my message:

Bourbon in the barrel is stronger than in the bottle.  55%, usually,
versus 40%.  Robert explained why this is and why it may be a problem.

For some interesting information about barrels, distillates, bourbon,
etc. visit:

http://www.homedistiller.org 

Those lucky New Zealanders get to have all the fun!  I also found the
information about fermenting and sugar "washes" to be quite informative
and very applicable to mead making.  But I digress....

I would like to second Robert's suggestion that you simply fortify your
Scotch ale with Bourbon, for flavor.  I would recommend quite a bit less
than "a bottle" though.

Now, my Scoth Ale question:

It is my understanding that barrels for storing beer (wooden kegs?) are
lined with pitch.  This pitch was periodically stripped and replaced to
keep contamination in check.  Does this apply to aging Scotch Ale or are
the barrels used for that not pitch lined?  In other words does the
Scotch Ale normally touch the wood?

 -David Wilbur

Here is one for Troy A. Wilson:

Q: Why do programmers always confuse Halloween and Christmas?
A: OCT 31 = DEC 25.

You see, there are 11 kinds of people, the third being those that had to
use octal once upon a time.

[1634.4, 257.8] Apparent Rennerian -- Scottsdale, AZ


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 06:53:00 -0400
From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: re:orval and consumption

Pete says..

On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:35:13 -0400, Joel Gallihue reflected on the taste
of Orval.
    I had been a Belgian fan for quite a while when I tasted my very first
Orval, and have not had one since! A few years ago Belgian beers were quite
difficult to find in Australia, and for many months prior to the experience
I had been reading and listening to others expound upon the virtues of the
brew. After several months I was shocked to see it stocked at a nearby
liquor store. My impression upon tasting it was; "Aptly named! This stuff is
bloody Orval!!" It tasted all the world like dishwashing liquid, and it was
an experience I have not been quick to repeat. Now I realise that in all
likelihood, the bottle was old and the beer had fallen from it's last legs
many months prior to my opening it and with this in mind, I will probably
force myself to buy another one for comparisons sake when next I see it on
the shelf. But as far as first impressions go, it was a memory I will always
remember ... for all the wrong reasons.

Cheers,
Pete

AND, I couldn't agree more. I've tried this beer many times, trying
desparately to find what everyone else claims is there, and I just don't
"get it". I love Belgian beers. One of my favorite all time beers is Oerbier
by De Dolle, but, Pete described Orval perfectly. "bloody Orval!

On another note, I try to keep to my 2 pint per day max. The only time I
really have a hard time, is when I tap a new keg, and it is just too good
not to have another, and another, and another...

cheers,
Jim
Providence, RI (some day I'll figure the Rennerian coordinates)




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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 07:39:47 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Regional American Styles

Ted responded to my call for suggestions for the AHA with an interesting
proposal to create committees to look at establishing guidelines for American
beer styles.

A number of years ago, the AHA adopted the BJCP Beer Style Guidelines, so
changes to these guidelines are made by the BJCP. Coincidentally, I'm on the
recently formed committee to update the guidelines so I can tell you that we
are definitely considering American styles. However, there are a lot of things
that play into this. One large one is what styles are being brewed AND entered
in homebrew competitions in significant numbers. Occasionally styles are
dropped from the Guidelines if they aren't being entered, Malt Liquor would be
an example. Conversely, if significant numbers of a style are being entered in
Category 24 Specialty/Experimental/Historical, then we look at possibly adding
that to the guidelines.

Ted seems to have a handle on many of the factors that influence the
development of beer styles -
"USA could be divided into many regions where soil
types, types of hops and grain that would have been
grown in that region, temperature of the region, water
quality, yeast strains perhaps, etc would define its
style. "

And there were some indigenous Am beer styles.... spruce beer, Badger beer,
Kentucky Common, etc. But they have pretty much died out. Though, as
homebrewers we can brew and enter them in competitions (again in Cat 24...
historical). But we can't just 'define' a style and thus create it, though we
can certainly do this in Cat 24. A true beer style evolves in a local area
(with the factors you mention) and if it continues to be brewed over time (&
brewed & entered by homebrewers) then it is one of the living beer styles we
include in the BJCP guidelines. These guidelines are certainly not all
inclusive, there are dinosaur styles, possibly evolving styles, or styles that
are not entered enough to be included (at least for now).

Still, your idea of looking at local conditions & ingredients to create your
own style is certainly creative & interesting. Go for it, define & brew your
own 'style' and enter it in Cat 24 along with your style definition so the
judges can evaluate how close you came to your intention. If enough people
start brewing your style(s), who knows what will happen.

Anyhow, thanks for your suggestion.... love that kind of creative, positive
brainstorming.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL

see ya in Chicago!!





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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 07:38:24 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: burnt rubber smell in yeast culture

Todd asks about a burnt rubber smell in yeast culture, and talks about using
1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon of
yellow crystalline "yeast energizer"

I don't use this stuff myself, but I do know there are two types (at least,
maybe others?). One is DAP, diammonium phosphate and the other is yeast hulls
(dead yeast bodies). The DAP is white & the yeast hulls are yellow. Since the
beer ended up fine, it's probably just that you smelled the energizer. As I
say, I don't use the stuff myself, but I wouldn't expect the yeast hulls to be
autolyzed, but I guess it's certainly possible.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL








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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 07:18:12 -0400
From: cboyer at ausoleil.org
Subject: Maintaining Orval

You don't have to read this list long before you'll read that most beers are 
far better in their country of origin.  Orval is no exception, it's just better 
in or very near Belgium.  The answer "why" is very simple -- the beer is 
maintained as it should be, which is to say, somewhere around 15 dC (56 dF.)  
It's also almost always served at the correct temperature, and in the proper 
glass, which also makes a huge difference, believe it or not.  Add to that the 
fact that the local supply is also usually aged the correct time, since it 
doesn't have to go very far from the brewery which concocted it.

So, after saying all of that, it's really unfair to judge Orval after it has 
been shipped 1/2 way across the world in what must have been far less than 
optimal conditions.  While I suppose it is indeed possible that the shipping 
company maintained the correct temperature, as did the seller, all too often we 
will find these brews on a store shelf at room temperature, or too cold in a 7 
dC cooler alongside lagers, etc. etc.  And since they've come so far, they're 
probably pretty old too.  

I would be willing to bet you that were you to sit in a tap-room in say, Kessel-
lo, Belgium, you'd have a chilled Orval and say to yourself. "This beer 
is "Orvally" good!" 

- -------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:28:06 -0300
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: MacOS X Brewing Software, OpenBrew

Hello all,
For the first time in over a year (it's hard to brew on the road), I 
had the chance to brew last weekend, thanks to Daniel Chisholm. Apart 
from hooking me again to the process, Daniel's Big Brew also led me to 
look into the developments in brewing software since 2001 (when I was 
last seen brewing). At the time, some HBDers were discussing on 
OpenBrew, a project for open technology to process brewing data based 
on XML Schema. Last I heard, this project had died and googling for it 
doesn't lead to much.

So, what have been the developments in brewing software technology 
since then? StrangeBrew, BrewNIX, ProMash et al. have been updated but 
don't seem to have changed so much. Anything a brother should know, 
coming back to the world of homebrewing? More specifically, is there 
now a compelling brewing program for MacOS X? While updated, 
BeerMeister X 2.0 doesn't really seem to be a ProMash-killer...
Interesting uses of Palm utilities and desktop databases would also 
fit...

What do you use?

Thanks!

Alex Enkerli (with varying Rennerian coordinates)



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:00:07 -0400
From: "Andrew Moore" <abmjunk at hotmail.com>
Subject: Wood Flooring From Guinness Vats

Announcing the ultimate homebrewer's flooring material! The April issue of 
"Architectural Record," a trade magazine for architects, included a brief 
article, in the new products section, on flooring that is milled from oak 
vats removed from the Guinness Brewery in Dublin. The flooring is oak and is 
suitably "distressed" by years of use and the stains caused by the iron 
tension bands that held the vats together. I have no affiliation, but if you 
are interested, the flooring is available from Mountain Lumber in 
Ruckerville, Virginia. Tel. 800-555-2671.

Andrew Moore, AIA
Richmond, Virginia



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 07:05:56 -0700
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: Re:Conditioning Scotch Ale in a Virgin Barrel

Phil Wilcox wrote in a fiery objection to my proposal:
> you only get to treat a virgin barrel the first time once. Why the hell
> would you want to use Cheap Bourbon? Do you want your Bourbon Scotch ale to
> taste like cheap bourbon? I think not! If you like peaty scotch bourban to 
balance your malty scotch ale find some Taliskar, or Lagavouland. and fill it 
up.

Actually, I don't want my scotch ale to taste like cheap bourbon and I don't 
want a bourbon scotch ale. I want a scotch ale that is aged like single malt 
scotch--in old bourbon barrels. I don't know if Lagavouland or Taliskar 
actually care what kind of bourbon was in the barrel first. Maybe they do, 
maybe not. I hear a lot about old Jack Daniels barrels, but my guess is that 
there are other US bourbon manufacturers who ship used barrels to Scottish 
distilleries.


> Face it Johnathan, you forked out over $100 bucks + for the barrell you
> mine as well put good Scotch in it. (That will still be drinkable
> afterwards) albiet maybe a bit oaky...

For the record (I stated this in my original post), I paid $45 for the 6 liter 
barrel, including shipping. 

I don't drink Scotch, but as a son and son-in-law of two Scotch enthusiasts, I 
certainly wouldn't ruin Scotch by aging it in a virgin oak barrel, hence my 
idea on bourbon. That said, your advice on quality is probably good. I suppose 
I could always start looking for sales on JD rather than use the cheap 
stuff...  

Thanks for the advice and happy brewing!

Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:51:45 -0500
From: Matthew Prahlow <prahloma at milwaukee.k12.wi.us>
Subject: Cancel messages

Please cancel the messages sent to me.  I am no longer interested in 
receiving them.  Also, I will not have access to this in one more 
week.

Matt Prahlow


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 07:15:02 -0700
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: Leave Postal Inspectors Alone - Call Your Senator

To all those who: 

a) privately and publicly flamed Jim Yeagley for taking his job seriously and 
for being proud enough of his occupation to publicly defend it 
and/or 
b) belittled his defense of the law with sarcasm, 

including but not limited to, the following: 

> Dear Mr.Postal Inspector, 
> 
> You sound like a weenie to me. 

"Protection, huh?...Well, keep making the world safe from fermented beverages, 
Jim. I realize you are only following orders." 

"Sounds to me that we may have too many postal inspectors. Cut the postal 
budget, especially the part that pays the postal inspectors." 

I say: Shame on you. 

It is the fundamental basis of this country that we have laws, which are 
drafted by people (or their representatives), and in order for those laws to 
function there need to be people who enforce them. It should not be up to 
the enforcers to decide which laws are important and which are not-- 
laws are not meant to be subjective or left up to individual interpretation. 

It is also the fundamental right of citizens in this country to use their 
voice to effect changes in laws that they find absurd, obselete or otherwise 
misguided. It is NOT, however, productive or constructive to criticize the 
employees who we as citizens employ for enforcing the laws that we as citizens, 
either directly or indirectly, are responsible for. 

Another perfect example of this is the people that I hear complain when they 
are pulled over for going 10 MPH faster than the speed limit. The typical 
complaint is, "That was ridiculous, I was only going 10 MPH over and it 
shouldn't be X MPH there anyway--that's way too slow." Well, the fact is that 
these people ARE breaking the law, it IS the responsibility of the police to 
enforce the laws and if they REALLY think the limit is absurd, then they have 
the power to change the law via petition, a sponsored ballot question or many 
other various means. In the end, however, THEY are breaking the law and THEY 
should be responsible enough to accept the consequences. 

All this said, I do ship beer via the USPS, knowingly breaking the law. (I 
drive +5-+10 MPH over the speed limit too). However, if I someday have a 
postal inspector knocking on my door, I'm not going to be pissed at him for 
doing his job. Maybe then, however, I'll put down my homebrew, get off my ass 
and call my senator's office to talk about changing the law. 

Jonathan 
Woodbury Brewing Co. 
www.woodburybrewingco.com 



Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:35:58 -0400
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: pH standards

Byron Towles writes:
<Does anyone know of common items I can use to calibrate my pH checker? >

For a two point calibration you want to straddle the pH range of interest.
For beer brewing, I imagine you're interested in the mash pH range of about
5.2.   The typical pH standards are 4, 7 and 10, so you'd want 4 and 7.

Common items that you might be able to use?   How about Coke?  The pH of
Coke is probably very consistent and it's low.  It would make a good
standard for your lower pH point.  For the upper pH standard, I don't have
as good an idea.  The only product I can think of is Chlorox bleach.  It
would have a very high and probably very consistent pH but may end up
ruining your probe.

If you want to track down a couple common chemicals you can make your own
standards

AWWA Standards has several primary standards for pH at 25C:

pH 4.004 : 10.12 g/L KHC8H4O4 (potassium hydrogen phthalate)
pH 7.415:  1.179 g/L KH2PO4  and 4.303 g/L Na2HPO4 (potassium dihydrogen
phosphate and disodium hydrogen phosphate)

The KH2PO4 has to be dried at 110-130 C for 2 hours prior to weighing, the
others do not.  Dissolve in boiled and cooled distilled water.  Store in
polyethylene. Replace every 4 weeks.

As you can see, the $25 for standards is starting to look good!

Actually, Aquatic Ecosystems Inc has pH tablets (just add water) for $6 for
10 tablets, pH 4, 7, and 10.   For $12 bucks you've got the standards you
need for several years and  I suspect any aquarium shop would have the same
tablets locally.  That's probably your best bet.

Cheers!
Todd
Buffalo, NY





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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:51:36 -0400
From: "Joris Dallaire" <Joris.Dallaire at meq.gouv.qc.ca>
Subject: RE: burnt rubber smell -- yeast culture

On Wed, 11 Jun, Janie Curry <houndandcalico at hotmail.com> asked opinions about
the possible source of a burnt rubber smell in yeast culture.

Well Janie, I too had a strong rubber smell when i opened my starters before
pitching, and found out that it was simply the rubber stopper. It seems that the
sterilisation product (potassium sulfite if memory serves well) is somehow
attacking the rubber, causing it to degrade and produce the smell. On a further
stage of degradation, i found small rubber pieces sticked to the glass of the
Erlenmeyer flasks i use for culturing.

The beer always came out good though. Hope that helps.
- --Joris.




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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ted Teuscher <t_teuscher at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Regional American Styles

For example, I live in KC and grew up in Kansas my
whole life. I would envision several regional brews
for the great plains. Very early brewers would not
have access to refrigeration so it could not be a
lager. It also gets VERY hot and humid so a person
would not want a heavy type of stout or porter. The
water is here is VERY hard due to all the limestone.
Couple that with the vast amount of wheat and corn
that is grown on the plains and you can almost form a
style from that. I could see a light wheat ale,
something with corn in it like a CAP, and even a honey
wheat because we have a lot of bees around due to all
the flowering plants on the plains. I don't think any
of the beers would be very hoppy, just enough to
balance well with the rest of the flavors. The yeast
would be something that could be cultured from an open
fermentor to get a certain flavor of yeast indigenious
to the region in spring time. Of course this could
take some time to find a good yeast strain because not
many people like that sour lambic type beer (I'm one
of them).

I think you see what I am getting at now. I am talking
about defining new styles. Our typical "American"
beers are just American renditions of European beers
in which we still try to mimic the flavors of the
beers geographic origin in Europe, for the most part
anyway, without much consideration to where WE, the
brewers, live and how a beer would have developed in
OUR hometown had we not had any outside influence. 

Cheers!
Ted


- --- "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
wrote:
> So other than a small number of styles, that are
> already in the style guide,
> would you suggest?  I've traveled all over the
> country and I don't see
> regional styles.  You do find lots of variation, but
> I haven't see clearly
> defined regional styles.  Sure the West Coast has a
> lot of hoppy beers, from
> IPAs to Stouts, but then so do most homebrewers
> elsewhere.  We've already
> included American Wheat, American Light Lagers,
> Classic American Pilsner,
> Cream Ale, and California Common.  The BJCP Style
> Guide Committee is
> currently re-addressing some of the styles and will
> be adding an American
> Stout and the American IPA.  Beyond that I really
> don't see other regional
> styles.  Please enlighten me.
> 
> Dave




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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:41:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Alcohol Shipment - Patchwork of Laws

Let's try and clear the confusion on these alcohol shipment
restrictions by... er, well, showing you all the complexity!
Yeah, that ought to clear things up!

The laws/rules we generally are talking about regarding shipment 
of alcohol fall into three categories:

(1) Federal -- US Postal Service prohibition on shipment, with 
no effect on other common carriers (as far as I know)

(2) State - legal prohibition, in some cases with high penalties, 
applies to common carriers

(3) Private - common carriers concerned about the risk of 
(in some states) having not only standard legal penalties 
but also the risk of their vehicle confiscated because it's used 
"in the commission of a felony", so they set their own policy
against shipment just to avoid the risk

Note that you might be lucky enough to live one of the many states
where there is no specific prohibition, yet still encounter a common
carrier agent who has a policy of not accepting shipments of alcohol,
especially from "unknown" shippers. :-(  However, at least you have 
a chance at it, unlike most of us here in Maryland (the "Free State"
arghhh!), who have no (legal) way at all.  Robert Parker excepted --
really.

A few items on the status of various of these state laws and the
courts:
http://www.texassafetynetwork.org/internet/issue/updatedirectship.htm

Various state laws on shipping alcohol.  This site says "by mail" 
in the title, though it is already illegal to ship it via US Postal
Service -- they mean "by common carrier".  The pedant in me raises
a skeptical eye at the rest of the info when it's not so precise
at the outset, and the info is a bit dated but provides a good general
overview of the patchwork of laws involved. 
http://www.adminresources.com/psa/PSA00070.PDF

Specifically here in Maryland, an update to their earlier restrictions,
just to show you a sample rule and comment by the comptroller:
(These might be long URLs that get split and need "putting together")
http://compnet.comp.state.md.us/attd/atinfo/publications/bulletins/
alco/bl_ab26.pdf
http://www.inform.umd.edu/News/Diamondback/1999-editions/05-May/
13-Thursday/Com3.htm

Many other states have similar laws.  Do a Google Search on 
  ALCOHOL SHIPMENT FELONY PROHIBITION MISDEMEANOR <your state>
or something similar.

And if you think it's a pain to ship beer to a competition or a 
friend in the next city, just try sending beer to another country.
Then we can drag in Customs & Excise declarations, too!

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland ("The Free State"), USA




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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A question of style and ingredients

Chip Bulla, in Thursday's HBD, brewed an ale with classic lager hops.
What kind of a beer is it?

Chip, I haven't tasted your beer, and I'd ask you to ship me some
to try, but we'd both end up in jail.  ;-)

However, guessing without tasting, I would say that you have:  Ale.

There is more to an ale than just the hops, and, dare we say, "less" 
to a lager.  Specifically, when fermenting an ale, the yeast you use
and the temperatures you ferment at will have a pronounced effect 
upon the character, ordinarily producing a fair amount of esters
(fruitiness), among other things,  which almost defines the 
"ale style" but should NOT be present in a lager.

The hop character will certainly be nothing like what you would
expect in a typical APA (e.g. Sierra Nevada), but there are quite
a lot of ales out there that have a subdued, fine hop aroma and
flavour like you might be getting.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "micsmi at yahoo.com" <micsmi at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:  homebrew consumption poll

Ian Watson wrote:

>>>>So I ask:  How much homebrew do we swallow on
an average day?  My answer would be 2 to 4 pints.>>>>

Usually, a couple of pints a night.  If I didn't
balance that with running a few times a week, and a
reasonably healthy diet (my wife has a Masters in
Nutrition), I would probably cut back... 

You might find this interesting - a summary of
daily/weekly consumption guidelines for different
countries...I believe it is fairly current.  Funny,
the extremes in some of the guidelines (France  at  5
drinks per day, Canada  at  1 max.)

http://www.aim-digest.com/gateway/pages/guide/articles/biggy.htm

Michael


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:49:07 -0400
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net>
Subject: Homebrew consumption, malt mills, females at AHA.

I would guess that I drink an average 12-24 oz. of homebrew per day when 
I'm home. Naturally, consumption spikes in the presence of willing 
companions. My wife and her friends often reserve the best brews .... I 
drink the mistakes.

As for recommendations on malt mills, Santa brought the BarleyCrusher in 
2001. Have nothing to compare it to other than the old rolling pin, but 
it's sturdy and reliable.

As first-time attendees, LeAnn and I are looking forward to meeting 
everyone in Chicago next week. As an aside, how many lady brewers or wives 
usually attend the event?

Bob Hall,
Napoleon, OH



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:39:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom M" <tomomeier at excite.com>
Subject: re: Regional American Styles



Ted Teuscher wites:
>USA could be divided into many regions where soil
>types, types of hops and grain that would have been
>grown in that region, temperature of the region, water
>quality, yeast strains perhaps, etc would define its
>style. Each region could be assigned its own committee
>to establish what the guidelines for their beer will
>be. 


This is an interesting idea.  Let me be the first to
volunteer for the South Alabama region.  I happen to
have a recipe passed down from my Great Grandfather,
who used the ingredients that were indigenous to that
region during Prohibition: Blue Ribbon Malt, Sugar, 
and Bread Yeast..   I have never tried to make the 
recipe, which I will call 'Prohibition Pilsner' or 
'PP' for short, but according to my grandmother, 
he often enjoyed it with some 'possum that had been
fed out with corn.

Let's band together and bring back this classic
American beer style that has been neglected for
too long!

Tom Meier






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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:36:24 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: Imperial Barley Wine

Some hbd'rs have expressed interest in ultra-high gravity beers.
I have also been intrigued by Sam Adams Triple Bock (17.5% ABV)
and Dogfish Head World Wide Stout (23% ABV). Never had a Sam
Adams Millennium ale (24% ABV). I am fascinated by the flavor of
these beers and that a brewer can coax his yeast(s) to make such
enjoyable high alcohol beers.

Thus, I tried my own 'Imperial Barley Wine'. The details are at:
<http://hbd.org/ensmingr/impbarleywine.html>. In essence, my
procedure was to make a 'standard' barley wine (OG 1.109) with
Danstar Nottingham ale yeast. I racked it off the sediment
periodically and added honey, dry malt extract, sugar, and
additional yeasts (Champagne yeast and White Labs 099).

Counting these extra carbohydrate additions, I estimate my
"effective" OG as 1.199. The measured FG was 1.025. Apparent
attenuation was 0.854 (or 85.4%). Estimating alcohol is
problematic, since most of the formulas proposed for this are for
'normal' strength beers. The formulas that I have on hand give an
estimated ABV of about 23 %.

What's it taste like? A bit harsh at the moment (presumably due
to fusels) but I am cautiously optimistic that it will smooth out
with time. Will keep you all posted.

BTW ... it's presumably illegal to send this stuff by mail.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr





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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:33:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Bristol?=" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Beer-flavored_Ice_Cream=3F__CHEERS!?=

Britain welcomes the marriage of two great tastes that work great together.
June 12, 2003: 2:18 PM EDT
By Gordon T. Anderson, CNN/Money Contributing Writer

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Homer Simpson, make room in your freezer.  The
world's first beer-flavored ice cream has arrived.

Scottish Courage, the big U.K. brewer, last week began selling to British
consumers ice cream that tastes like Newcastle Brown Ale, one of the
company's flagship brands.  The product is made via a joint venture with
Doddington Dairies, which, like Scottish Courage, is located in Northeast
England.

Doddington, an award-winning dairy, is making the superpremium ice cream. It
will sell initially at supermarkets in Northumberland and Newcastle, and
only during the summer months.

Linda Bain, a spokeswoman for Scottish Courage, confirmed the launch, and
noted that it's already attracting local attention. "I was driving home last
night, and they were conducting a taste test on the radio," she said.

The ice cream's taste is said to reflect the nutty, caramel flavors of the
namesake ale.

The two companies have agreed to a six-month licensing arrangement, in which
the product is to be test marketed to gauge its popularity.  According to a
report by the market research firm Datamonitor, sales of the ice cream may
fare best in Northeast England, where both companies have strong brand
appeal to consumers.

It should be noted that while publicity may create a buzz, the product
itself will not.  The ice cream contains less than 1 percent alcohol.

######################################

Less than 1% alochol?  But greater than 0.0000%?!?

Good grief.

Just when you thought it was safe to think about using unusual ingredients
in your beer again.  I do not want to hear even ONE MORE COMPLAINT about
making chile beer!  :-)

- -- 
Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:11:52 -0500
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Regional American Styles


On 12 Jun 2003 at 0:11, Request Address Only - No Articles wrote:

> I was pondering the possibility of the AHA undertaking
> the task of creating several committees (even though I
> hate that word and all it stands for) of volunteers to
> establish guidelines for regional American brews. 

Here in the Southeast, that would be "Sweet Tea"; mint is optional.

Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Ala.


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:34:28 -0500
From: "Leonard, Phil" <Phil.Leonard at dsionline.com>
Subject: RE: homebrew consumption poll

My daily consumption has actually decreased since I started brewing.  
I have mentioned this to other homebrewers in the area and found that 
several of them have had the same experience.

Philip
[612 251.4 AR] Overland Park, KS


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:18:46 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Fw: mailing beer

I can see additional clarification is in order:

"18 USC 1716(f): All spirituous, vinous, malted, fermented, or other
intoxicating liquors of any kind are nonmailable and shall not be deposited
in or carried through the mails."

This applies to the United States Postal system only.  Common carriers must
adhere to a labyrinth of state and local tariffs.  For example, folks in
Texas and Kansas can mail alcohol to Oregon but Californian's cannot.  Beer
of the month clubs et al. use common carriers and work their way through the
maze of tariff schedules to bring you their product.

The intent of 18 USC 1716(f) is to ensure that taxes/tariffs on alcohol are
paid and that alcohol is not shipped to prohibited jurisdictions (dry
counties).  The taxes/tariffs apply to commercial product for resale.  For
this reason, no common carrier should be concerned with moving beer for
competition which is not taxable.  Unfortunately, because it is potentially
a hot potato, and UPS has built its' business on being above reproach (many
states highway patrol don't even bother inspecting UPS trucks because they
are always in serviceable condition), it is UPS's company wide policy to not
move any alcohol regardless of taxability or jurisdiction to or from.  Some
other carriers adopt a similar stance.

On the other end of the spectrum, their are carriers who just look the other
way.  They are facing a potential liability in doing so, and shouldn't have
to be concerned with the issue in the first place.

So why not just work with the common carriers when they can move the stuff
already albeit on a limited basis?  We're talking about 50 states and some
6000 municipalities to deal with.  With that many fingers in the pie, one
common solution is improbable and I'm not up to the task.

As go the mails so go the common carriers.  Going back to the intent of 18
USC 1716(f): to ensure commercial alcoholic beverage taxes are paid and are
not sent to prohibited jurisdictions.  I think a very strong case can be
made for homebrewed beer and wine being sent to competition not being
taxable.  Additionally, the postal service keeps a list of prohibited
jurisdictions so homebrew finding it's way to Elba, Alabama shouldn't be an
issue.  As a result, a postal wide exemption should be doable.  And if the
Post Office can move it, the common carriers will follow suit.

What I'm after is a mailing exemption for alcoholic beverages for
competition and analysis, nothing more.  The current maze of tariff
schedules applies to commercial product going to consumers/resale and isn't
going to change.  I have no desire to touch that issue.

- ------------------------------------------

I'll be contacting Jim Moran's office to see if he's interested; looks like
he might be our best shot.  Legislators typically do not put forward
legislation unless it is presented by someone in their jurisdiction.  Any
8th district Virginian's/BURP members who might be interested, let me know.
I can take care of the initial pitch....

Thanks,

Chad Stevens



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:24:24 -0500
From: "Rob & Robin Beck" <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Fw: Style & Ingredients

Subject: Style & Ingredients


> If your beer is orientated toward the hops, it might fit into the American
> Brown category. If it is more focused on malt and crystal, it might work
in
> an American Amber category.
> The ingredients and the procedures are not as important as the finished
> product. If you have access to a homebrew club or to beer judges, bounce
it
> off them. You could also enter the beer in several categories at a
> competition and see what kind of feed back you get.
> I have made some really good, drinkable beers that just didn't hit any
> BJCP/AHA categories and that's OK too.
> Rob
>




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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:25:20 -0500
From: "Rob & Robin Beck" <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Fw: Homebrew consumption


Subject: Homebrew consumption


> I average 1 to 3 pints daily.
> Funny story: I was having some problems with pain and swelling in my hand
> and ended up a a neurologist's office. She was doing the initial interview
> and general history and she got to the question, Do you drink alcohol?
Yes
> How much?  Oh, 1 or 2 pints a day.   The doctor got this shocked and
> horrified look on her face, until my wife quickly chimed in that I was
> talking about beer, not hard liquor.          Well, I guess you had to be
> there.
> Rob
>




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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:28:43 -0400
From: "Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Homebrew consumption poll

Interesting question posed there.. regarding how much HB is consumed by me
personally in a day? I bottle everything, and usually I'll only drink one
per day.. unless it's the weekend, I may get around to maybe two, but that's
even rare.

Mike

meyre at sbcglobal.net



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:54:18 -0400
From: NO Spam <nospam at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: homebrew consumption poll


>So I ask:  How much homebrew do we swallow on
>an average day?  My answer would be 2 to 4 pints.

I would say I probably go through a case and a half
of beer, including homebrew and commercial stuff, in
a month.  36 bottles in a month = just a tiny little
bit more than (1) 12 oz bottle a day.  (And I never
have "one a day" ;))

I don't think that having access to it all the time
or having alot of it around automatically makes me
drink any more.  I think we all tend to drink more on
the weekends, when watching football or other sporting
events, that sort of thing.

Yes, it is not a bad thing that this 'hobby' produces
a  useful product, unlike building model ships or
doing paint by number sets, or other such useless
hobbies.

But I brew beer for the fun of it, and the challenge
of winning or trying to win homebrew competitions.
I probably give away to friends and relatives (and
customers, too) more than I actually drink.  I do
not brew to have more beer to sit around and get
drunk on.

Just because there's 4 or more cases of homebrew,
about a dozen cases or more of varying commercials
ranging from Abbey De Leffe to Old Nick to Fuller's
London Pride, and over a dozen cases of homemade wine
in my basement - that doesn't make me an alcoholic,
does it?  It just means I enjoy a wide variety of
good beer and wine, a little at a time, and that
I like to share it with my friends and family on
occasions.

Averaging 4 pints per day over the course of a year?
That's a half gallon of beer for one person every day!
That's about 15 gallons of beer for one person in a
single month.  That means you're drinking a commercial
half barrel by yourself in a month.  That's about 180
gallons of beer in a year!  It's still under the legal
limit of what you're allowed to brew for a household,
but that still seems like alot to me.  And I still
haven't mentioned the dollar cost of drinking that
much, or the calories and other negative health
factors.  The studies that say beer and wine are good
for you SPECIFY one glass per day.

And so this leads me to ask - How much beer or wine per
day would someone have to consume to be considered an
alcoholic?

There are other factors to take into account, too,
besides just the amount of beer or wine consumed.
If it ever interferes with your job or your home
life, or you ever find yourself drunk and abusing
your wife and kids, or you're getting stopped more
than once in, say, a year's time for DUI, these are
all warning signs.  Drinking alot by yourself is also
another one. 

Homebrew shops are in the business of selling
ingredients to home beer and winemakers, but I don't
think any of us would say that we're in favor of
alcoholism or want to encourage it, or ruin people's
lives.  And we especially don't want to see anyone
hurt really bad or even killed as a result of something
stupid they did under the influence.

It's more about encouraging people to responsibly
enjoy beer and wine, maybe more about having it with
food, and at social gatherings.  It's not about drinking
all the time just to get drunk.

Bill 



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Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 01:25:34 +0000
From: aa8jzdial at attbi.com
Subject: how much beer

Ian asks, "How much homebrew do we swallow on an average day?  My answer would 
be 2 to 4 pints."

 I agree with Ian. How much is average? 
Lots of married guys would like to rephrase the question but that poll belongs 
somewhere else.
2-4 is about par here but sometimes they are british pints.
age is 51 if you want that for the spreadsheet.
rick 
1 mile east of big lake michigan.


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:52:19 -0400
From: "Christopher Clair" <buzz at netreach.net>
Subject: 2003 BUZZ Off Results and MCAB Qualifiers...

The results of the 10th Annual BUZZ Off have been posted on the BUZZ web
site.  The address is http://hbd.org/buzz.  Congratulations to all winners,
esp. Bob Purrenhage and his Best of Show winning Bavarian Weizen!  Thank you
to all who entered and a special thank you to Iron Hill Brewery & Restaurant
for hosting us.

See you all next year!

Christopher Clair
buzz at netreach.net
http://hbd.org/buzz

"The mouth of a perfectly happy man is filled with beer."
 - Ancient Egyptian Wisdom, 2200 B.C.




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