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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  If professional thermometers are too expensive... ("Parker Dutro")
  RE: Raising Children With Beer ("Jim Hinken")
  Re: Brewing Software for mac? (Tim Cook)
  children with beer ("greg man")
  Red Vienna (Grant Family)
  re: Keg Lid Leaks ("Mark Tumarkin")
  How NOT to lose weigh - was re: Beer gut/belly? ("-S")
  Re: a nutrient hypothesis + a question about kit-yeasts (Michael Hartsock)
  Macintosh Brewers (Bev Blackwood II)
  Re: Keg Lid Leaks (Ed Jones)
  Schweinshaxe / raising children with beer (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Schweinhaxen (Rick)
  RE: Schweinshaxen ("Dennis Lewis")
  Future AHA conferences/NHC's ("Formanek, Joe")
  Re: Raising Children With Beer ("Bridges, Scott")
  re:  odd problem / iodophor (Paul Kensler)
  re:  keg lid leaks (Paul Kensler)
  re: Maris Otter stuck mash / tons of teig (Paul Kensler)
  RE:Keg Lid Leaks ("Jason")
  re: Keg Lid Leaks (John Schnupp)
  Tap Handles & Love Handles ("Chip Stewart")
  kids and beer (g flo)
  Beer belly/Bad way to lose weight ("Mike Maag")
  Iodophore stain, leaky kegs, ("Dave Burley")
  Re: Raising children with beer (Lee Ellman)
  RE: Raising Children With Beer ("Christian M. Restifo")
  Raising Children With Beer ("Lee and Ant Hayes")


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Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:45:37 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: If professional thermometers are too expensive...

I made a discovery today.  I am currently a student and to put myself
through school I have been a barista for about for years.  Some coffee
houses use small stainless steel thermometers to check the milk.  They
cost about 5 to 6 bucks each and would be great for a cheap temp gauge.
Not as easy to read as a larger dial, but they give an accurate reading.
They work very well and are adaptable to a kettle, having the same size
stem as most brewing thermometers.  I will put one at the output of my
heat exchanger and maybe one at the mash tun outlet.  Or for twelve
bucks you can get a really nice S.S. thermometer with a nice big dial
that goes from zero to 220.  Easily calibrated in frozen water and then
can be used to calibrate other thermometers.  Nice 8" stem and its NSF
approved.  These can be purchased at a Cash and Carry or other
restaurant supply store.


Parker






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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:28:10 -0700
From: "Jim Hinken" <jim.hinken at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Raising Children With Beer

Christopher Powers asks about brewing with children in the household.

My experience brewing with children at home has been a success.  I've been
brewing since 1978 and have 19 year old twin daughters and a 15 year old
son.  They have always been aware that Dad has made beer and wine, that it
has always been in the home, and it hasn't been a problem.  They have grown
up knowing that alcoholic beverages are a part of everyday life and that
they are consumed in moderation.  Over the years, the kids have had a glass
of wine on special occasions and I don't feel that it has been detrimental
at all.  If I was given the opportunity to do raise them differently, I
don't think that I would change a thing.

My brewing/winemaking has been a positive influence with at least one of my
daughters.  She is majoring in viticulture and enology at college.  My hope
is that she can keep me supplied with good wine for many years.
Jim Hinken






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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:45:38 +1000
From: Tim Cook <Tim.Cook at Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Brewing Software for mac?

Bill,

I just published my StarOffice 6 spreadsheet for brewing.  It does
everything I need to do for a brew except calculate decoction fractions.

If you are running MacOS X, you can get OpenOffice and use my
spreadsheet.

More details, and the spreadsheet are at:

    http://timcook.members.easyspace.com/

Regards,
Tim
Brewing in Melbourne (not the one in Florida), Victoria (not the one in
Canada)

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 02:42, NO Spam wrote:
> Awhile back, there was a discussion about various
> brewing software, and I remember someone posted they
> were looking for some good mac brewing software.
> So am I.  Anybody find any?
> 
> Bill



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:51:17 -0400
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: children with beer


   Giving a child beer, a European method. Hmmmmmmm interesting question. I 
think there is a good argument for either side of this. On the one side if 
you make something mysterious and evil kids will naturally gravitate toward 
it. Its the old don't pull the lever routine played out in the cartoons. The 
other side says permissive parenting is detrimental to adolescences learning 
discipline. Further that they won't be able to learn to handle that 
responsibility until much later in life.

   I don't know, I had a few friends who were 21 that acted like teenagers. 
And vise versa. I think this depends more on the person than the 
surroundings they grow up in.( please lets not debate nature verse nurture) 
Take for example my best friend, Dude never drank or did drugs his whole 
life. Hits 21 and now likes to have a couple beers every now an then. He 
did'nt freak out an go on a wild binge after his birthday. Then again I know 
people raised the same way and they bounced like a loose spring.

  Personally I don't have kids, however I was raised in a house where my 
father allowed us to drink beer from about 13 on. He'd be going to the packy 
an say "Any body want anything in particular?" Course If we drank we did'nt 
drive and we could'nt leave the house. We were taught to respect alcohol and 
a few drinks did'nt mean it was ok to get hammered. The mystic was taken out 
for us. Did that mean I lead a responsible young adolescent life style, NO. 
I was drinking in bars and with my friends to excess as early as 17. I'll 
never forget turning 21 and showing the bar tender who been serving me for 2 
years that I was finally old enough to drink by law( boy was he surprised!)

After I turned 22 one day I sat to look at the people in the bar around me. 
Suddenly I realized some of these guys an gals would probably be at the same 
stool in 20 years telling the same jokes and going no where. That's when I 
got wise and slowed down. I've stayed that way by only drinking in 
moderation. Funny thing is I drink less now as a home brewer even though I 
have access to lots more beer. I guess that's because we as coinsures enjoy 
the taste of a few beers instead is just drinking heavily for the effect.

  SO long story short, too late, Should kids be allowed to drink? Yes, I 
think so, in moderation. I don't agree with the whole dumbing down children 
mentally. So because there young they can't possible learn to handle adult 
responsibility? PLease there are adults who can't handle it, who are we 
kidding?

  On the other hand they must be introduced to it with respect for the 
danger it can posses to people. But certain kids will abuse it anyway no 
matter how you raise them. Even If you do everything right they may still go 
the wrong way. That's just a struggle parents will have to deal with.
   I do honestly believe though If I had been sheltered from it as a youth 
my adolescent life could have been much worse. If it was dangerous and 
illicit then I would have fallen much harder.



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:40:24 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Red Vienna

G'day,

I'm interested in making a Vienna lager (extract/partial mash).

I've looked for recipes all over the place and have found a few problems.
Either: i) there are too many to choose from, or ii) there aren't any that are
appropriate.

I want a nice deep red (about 12 SRM) lager that follows the guidelines of a
fairly typical Vienna (I realise a deep red is technically out of the range of
Viennas).

I anyone has a corker of a recipe, I'd love to hear it. Personal
correspondence will probably be appreciated by everyone else! :)

Stu
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:05:06 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Keg Lid Leaks

H. Dowda asks about leaky kegs,

Well, obviously if ALL your kegs are leaking, this is shouldn't be happening.
So let's look at the obvious first.... you probably know that you can take a
dilute soap & water solution, brush it on to the fittings & see bubbles where
the leaks are occurring.... have you done this? They're all leaking at the lid
o-rings? If it was just one, it could be a problem with the keg being dented
or nicked, but seems very odd for all of them to do it.

I'm assuming you've replaced the o-rings. And don't forget to check the In &
Out connections as well. Sets of o-rings are cheap. Also make sure the poppet
springs are seating well & not leaking. I'd suggest trying some keg-lube as a
sealant if you haven't already tried this. This should provide a more positive
seal & hopefully solve your problem.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:36:56 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: How NOT to lose weigh - was re: Beer gut/belly?

MikeM writes ....,

>I drink 5 to 6 homebrews (6-7%) daily on weekdays, and 10 to 12 on
>weekends. My waist size is 32, and I can't even "pinch an inch".

Yea-gads are those "homebrews" pints  ?  Either way that's a huge amount of
alc and calories from beer.

The diet above has a daily average of  1840 Calories per day (avg 7.07pints
per day   at  6.5% abv) from beer alone.   The average adult male only uses
2000-2500 Cal/day.   He's  likely getting over 70% of his daily calories
from beer !     You don't have to be the Surgeon General  to know that's
unhealthy.

The drinking rate above comes to 175gm of ethanol per day.   To put this in
more recognizable terms it is equivalent to drinking 2/3rds bottle of 86
proof whiskey or 2+ bottles of wine every day.    That's way too much
alcohol if you are concerned with your health, IMO.

Calories aside, there are reasons why a high alcohol intake can cause weight
loss - alcoholic liver disease !

So he lost weight and  ...
>Then I got IBS(irritable bowel syndrome)   [and can't eat fats].

IBS is a vague set of symptoms, not a specific disease.    Here is a list of
Alcoholic liver disease symptom from Harrison's PoIM.... "Anorexia, nausea,
vomiting, GI bleeding[causes diarrhea]... and can mimic bile duct
obstruction [causing difficulty ingesting fats]".

It's absolutely typical for people suffering from alcoholic liver disease to
lose weight and have similar bowel problems.

Alcoholic liver disease comes from a chronic consumption of 80 to 160 grams
of ethanol per day according to Harrison's.  The rate above is 175gm per day
on average.  Do the math !

======

I am NOT trying to diagnose alc.liver disease nor alcoholism.   I am just
pointing out that averaging 7 hi-alc beers per day  is a very high rate,
unhealthy and could explain the entire set of symptoms.   I'd strongly urge
Mike to cut back on this consumption rate.

Sometimes - due to a minor illness or a lack of anything interesting when on
the road I take a vacation from drinking alcohol for a few days.   It's
reassuring to know that this regular habit of drinking which I practice 350+
days a year and which horribly addicts many thousands is still under control
in my own life.  I can apparently turn it off whenever I wish.   After
reading Mike's rather scary post I've decided to go "on the wagon" for a
week.- no drinks for me till the 18th.    Alcohol is a wonderfully enjoyable
part life, but only so long as one is completely under control.   I average
around 2.5 pints of mostly 5% beer per day - yet it's a persistent habit
which deserves periodic interruption.   Please join me Mike - test that you
are in control of your habit.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:43:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: a nutrient hypothesis + a question about kit-yeasts

Gregory suggested that using yeast in the boil will
cause "autolysis" flavor effects.

The difference between autolysis (yeast feeding on
dead yeast in the fermentation, and using yeast in the
boil is the fact that boiling the yeast will rupture
the cells.  This provides a very different yeast from
simply allowing the yeast to undergo autolysis.

Michael

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:51:47 -0500
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: Macintosh Brewers

Bill was looking for Macintosh brewing software...  I am afraid I can't 
offer a direct solution, but I use ProMash in Virtual PC (the Win 2K 
flavor on a G4/500Mhz Powerbook) with acceptable results.  I think a 
more interesting angle on it would be if anyone knows a good Unix 
version that could be ported to OS X.

Bev D. Blackwood II
http://www.bdb2.com



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ed Jones <cuisinartoh at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Keg Lid Leaks

H. Dowda wrote:
"OK a duhhh question.  I have almost stopped kegging
because of pressure loss in the kegs.  It seems due to
small slow leaks in the keg lid o-rings (new, old and
middle aged).  It is impossible to keep a keg on a
pressure system when it leaks as the CO2 tank is
rapidly depleted (duhhh).  Any ideas?  TIA. Private
e-mail fine."

I have two recommendations. First, you can smear a little keg lube
around the lid o-ring. Or, if you have a really pesky leak, try using
the oversize o-rings that Williams Brewing sells. I have purchased a 
couple of the o-rings in the past and they work great. I've also tried
the keg lube on slow leakers and it helps too. 


=====
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:32:44 +0200
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Schweinshaxe / raising children with beer

Hi all
Trevor i live 150 miles west of Munich. So i know their cuisine pretty
well. I never cooked a "Schweinshaxe" myself, but i searched google.
First with rezept schweinshaxe, then with recipe schweinshaxe.
The german search gave me 130 results, in english i still got 8.
I browsed a couple of recipes, and found out, that you should prepare
it in the oven. You also should sprinkle it with beer every 15-20
minutes. A friend of mine also uses this method, when he barbecues
a whole baby-pig (Spanferkel) over a open fire. He says he and the
pig need one case of beer over a period of 5 hours. He opens a bottle
drinks some, as the beer gets warmer he uses it to moisten the pig,
then opens a cold one. This gives a very tasty crust, and the meat
doesn't dry out.
Important for a search: it's Schweinshaxe not Schweinhaxe.

bon appetit


Raising children with beer
First: i would not serve the kids to much of any alcoholic beverage.
The next question: how much is too much. I'd keep it at the low end.
I don't have kids, so it's hypothetical for me.
Second: in Germany as well as here in Switzerland the sell "Malzbier".
This is more or less unhopped unfermented wort. The kids love it,
because it's sweet. If you give them a highly hopped IPA, i think
they don't love you anymore, because they normally don't like the
bitterness at all.
One of my brewbuddies lets his grandson (age 3) dip the finger in
his beer.(That happens maybe twice a week) The little bugger 
seems to like it, he even tried to dip two fingers in.
Our beers are on the lower hop end, and most of them have a
pronounced maltiness from dark caramel malt.
As they went out once, Tim dipped his finger in a commercial beer.
His verdict: This beer is not good, i don't like it.
He doesn't like wine as well.(Maybe he'd like a sweet white desert
wine)
Knowing this, the industry started to produce sweet alcopops like
hooch, smirnof ice and whatever their names are.
The legislators here in Switzerland put a high tax on them to stop
the youngsters from drinking too much of it. This makes some sense
to me. Naturally fermented beverages like beer, wine and cider are
much lower taxed than distilled(and premixed) beverages.

To come back to the original point. Most kids don't like alcoholic
beverages because they are either bitter or sour. From this
perspective i would definitely let them try it. (in very small
amounts of course) 
When they come into the age they start to like it, it's better 
they do it under supervision, than in the dark.

Thomas



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:41:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Schweinhaxen

>Ever since I have wondered about  the preparation of 
>Schweinhaxen.  Does anyone out there have any idea 
>how  the flavours are created?

Ahhh, the power of Schweinhaxen.  Having had my first
at Oktoberfest in Munich in 1992, (followed-up with
one the next day at the old Mathaser Bierstadt
downtown), I too have struggled to recreate this
delicacy.  I have found a few authentic recipes at
this page:
http://kochbuch.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/kategorie.php?kat=Fleischgerichte


As for the cut of pork, I've found it nearly
impossible to find in the US.  It's higher up on the
leg than the US butchers normally cut a pig, so it
requires a special cut.  I've tried the hocks (too
small) and cottage hams (too big). It seems to be
something in between.  GermanDeli.com does sell the
right cut, but FedEx charges were just too much for me
so I've never bought these:
http://store.yahoo.com/gdcom/meatbyspecor.html

I've been told (by German family) that there is some
sort of glaze which is applied to the skin to crisp it
up, as well as intense heat.  Normally I put them into
the oven in shallow water to cook, then crisp them up
under the broiler.

Sorry I can't be of more help.  After 11 years of
trying, I'm convinced the only way to get a real one
is to fly to Germany to enjoy it in person.

Rick Seibt
Bierstien Brewery
ale_brewer at yahoo.com





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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:47:54 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at ldc.cc>
Subject: RE: Schweinshaxen

Trevor White asks about Schweinshaxen

> This may be off the topic for the group, but I was in Munich 
> during 1999 as well and had a most enjoyable meal of 
> Schweinhaxen washed down with many different types of weissbier.
> Ever since I have wondered about the preparation of Schweinhaxen.  
> Does anyone out there have any idea how the flavours are created?

I tried very hard to recreate it at home to no avail. Bought
several German cookbooks, asked the old German lady at the 
local deli, butcher shop, etc. Basically you need several
important items:

* a foreleg hock, semi-cured with the skin still on it. This is
  what they call the "kracklin" (sp?). The roasted skin
  tastes like bacon. The skin on part is what makes it
  very hard to find.
* season with ground caraway seeds and other stuff (easy enough)
* bake in a special oven at over 600F, with special turners
  and so on to provide an even roast. I tried my grill
  set on "preheat" the whole time. 
* a special brown gravy that I have no idea what's in other
  than salt, and lots of it.
* Serve it with a knife sticking out of it, barbarian-style.

Mine never really turned out. Tasted mostly like just regular
roast pork. I'm sure that I missed a lot of seasonings, etc.

The other dish I could never recreate was Obaztda, which is
a soft cheese spread made with Camembert. I guess I'll just
have to go back!

Dennis Lewis
Warren, OH

Veni, vidi, bibi. I came, I saw, I drank.




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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:11:01 -0500
From: "Formanek, Joe" <Jformanek at griffithlabs.com>
Subject: Future AHA conferences/NHC's

There has been some discussion on locations of future NHC's and the concept
of spreading them around the country.  To be honest, the distribution of the
conferences over the past 8 or so years that I've attended has been pretty
good, running the gambit from Cleveland to LA.  IMHO, l'd be nice to see one
on the East Coast at some point in the near future.
There is an incredible amount of work that goes into organizing an NHC.  We
were extremely fortunate in Chicago that we have some strong friendly clubs
with members willing to step forward to participate in this organization.  I
also know that there are other areas, such as the Detroit Metro area for
one, that is in a similar situation that allows a great NHC to be pulled
off.  Perhaps future NHC's should revolve around these areas blessed with a
similar situation?
All of the professional organizations that I belong to have a rotation of
cities in which their National conferences are held.  Usually it's a 5-6
year cycle.  I understand that it's rather an apples/oranges situation when
comparing a grass roots organization like the AHA to one of the professional
organizations, like the Institute of Food Technologists, but in having a
rotation, it is known well in advance where future conferences will be held
and planning can be made much further in advance than is possible now.  

Cheers!!
Joe Formanek
Bolingbrook, IL


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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:30:25 -0400
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Re: Raising Children With Beer


CD Powers writes:

>Hello, I have a question to those members of the
>collective with children. I have so far successfully
>managed to continue brewing with a three-year-old and
>a 5-month-old. My wife has noted my commitment to the
>hobby, and wonders how other brewing families have
>dealt with having both lots of beer in the house and a
>presumably more liberal (in the politically-neutral
>sense of the word!) view of its consumption when the
>children get older and wonder what all of the fuss is
>about. Would you let an older (adolescent) child share
>in the fruits of your labor now and then, like some
>folks would allow a little glass of wine at
>Thanksgiving or Passover? How about a low-alcohol
>table beer with dinner? Would having exposure to
snip

This is a very good question, in light of our recent quasi-brewing
discussions regarding the social impact of our hobby.  For those who have
been around for a while, this is not the first time this discussion has come
up on the digest.  This is an extremely personal decision, and I'm sure that
there will be many varied opinions on this.  I'm a long time brewer (since
that fateful trip to Germany in '89 when I discovered "real" beer), and a
father since 1990 of now 13 and 10 yr olds.  Both of them have "grown up"
around my hobby of making and enjoying good beer.  

I have always held the opinion that alcohol shouldn't be a forbidden fruit.
I feel that if I share the good things about alcohol and drinking without
attaching a stigma to it, the kids will be less likely to try to sneak it.
While my kids are yet to be the age where they have any interest in
consuming alcohol, I plan to allow them to have a glass every so often in a
controlled setting.  Of course the counter-argument to this position is that
I may give the appearance of "condoning" underage consumption.  To this I
have no defense.  Up to this point they have tasted alcohol, but haven't
liked it - which is appropriate.  Also, remember that you are the best
example for your kids.  If you treat alcohol with respect and consume it
responsibly, chances are that they will, too.  If they see you getting
hammered every night and driving after drinking, they will take this example
to heart as well.  I think the message that I want my kids to get is that
consuming (or not consuming) alcohol is a decision that every adult needs to
make for themselves.  Like it or not, until they turn 21, the state says
that they are not legally allowed to drink.  They should not put themselves
in a position to risk negative consequences, and at no time should they be
in a car with someone who has been drinking.  Furthermore, a real concern is
that scholarship money is tied to criminal records, and a seemingly
insignificant arrest for underage drinking can have a big impact on their
college tuition.  

On a related subject with social issues aside, a brewery is no place for
small children.  We have boiling wort and hot liquor, glass carboys, caustic
chemicals, and electricity.  I advise anyone with children to be very
careful about letting your kids play around the brew house.  To be honest,
I'm still very nervous when my kids are around on brew day, especially since
my 13 yr old son loves to help me.  If you want them to be involved, make
sure to stress the safety issues and to not touch anything unless
specifically asked.  If they are not old enough to comprehend the dangers,
do not allow them close to the action unsupervised.

Scott
Brewing and parenting in Columbia, SC
(more parenting than brewing)    





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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:18:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:  odd problem / iodophor

David,
Good luck with your iodine walls!  Hopefully you'll
understand if I can't help but laugh...

One thing I thought of, related to your situation - I
heard a talk once where iodophor was discussed.  As
you've discovered, iodine readily evaporates.  There
is an ingredient in iodophor that keeps it from
evaporating - I'm no chemist, so I can't remember what
this type of chemical is (an emulsifier?) but I do
remember that the presenter was very specific - once
the iodine is gone, the remaining solution is actually
a good medium for bacteria to grow in.  In other
words, its worse than using plain water.

I would highly recommend Five Star's Star San (no
affiliation).  The active ingredient doesn't evaporate
and the solution doesn't stain (its clear).

Your rate of cooling is impressive!  Unfortunately, I
don't think I'd get quite so much cooling out here on
the nightmarishly humid east coast...

Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:  keg lid leaks

H.,
Off the top of my head, possibly your keg opening or
your lid is bent - maybe both.  I have several kegs,
including one or two cantankerous ones that only work
with one particular lid (even though all the lids look
identical).  How many kegs do you have, and is this
problem with all of them?

If you have several kegs that leak no matter which lid
you use, one possible solution - I think its Williams
Brewing that sells really fat, soft o-rings.  I use
these exclusively and they really do seal better than
the standard o-rings that have a smaller diameter and
are harder.  You might even try heating them up, with
the lids, in warm water before sealing the keg to make
sure they get nice and pliable.

Are you sure the leak is in the keg lid, and not in
the gas distribution line?  A spray bottle filled with
soapy water or Star San (its foamy) might help find
some leaks.  Perhaps its a connector in the line, or a
QD somewhere?  Maybe even a leaky poppet?


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Maris Otter stuck mash / tons of teig

Wes,
Thanks for the input.  I've used the MO malts in
English style beers with single infusion (152F or so)
mashes, sometimes with a mash out at 165F, sometimes
not.  Specifically, I do not do protein rests or even
spend any time in the protein range.

The grey stuff is called teig - a word that escaped me
when I wrote my original post, and then popped
unsolicited into my head while I was at work later in
the day...

I typically get efficiencies in the 70's.  I use a
Valley Mill and usually use the third coarsest setting
 - I don't know what gap this translates to, but I
NEVER (knock on wood) have any problems with runoff or
stuck sparges when using other malts and the grist
looks great.  Even with MO, the mash doesn't stick
because its too finely ground, it sticks because the
teig forms an air- and water-tight seal (a phenomenon
called top-piston suction or something like that).  I
have, in the past, had too fine a crush and
experienced the resulting problems so I know what that
experience is all about.  All that being said, I don't
think I'm overcrushing, but I'll be brewing this
weekend with MO, and I'll use the next coarsest crush.

A search of the HBD archives turned up a conversation
back in '98 where Hubert Hanghofer said that teig
formation is greatly increased by mash aeration.  I
don't think this is my problem either, as I'm doing
single infusion mashes, don't have a mash mixer, and
am of the "stir it in and leave it alone" personality
type.  When doughing in, I usually do a combination of
underletting and pouring in the strike liquor with a
bucket - but even when pouring in with a bucket, I'm
careful to avoid splashing and set the bucket down
into the mash before pouring the strike liquor out. 
Anyway, I sent Hubert a direct email hoping he could
shed some light on the subject, but I haven't received
a response yet.


Paul Kensler
Gathersteig, MD



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:19:28 -0500
From: "Jason" <jhayes75 at cox.net>
Subject: RE:Keg Lid Leaks

What I do is soak my lid in boiling water for 5 Min. This will soften the
gaskets giving you a good seal. Hope this helps



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:46:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Keg Lid Leaks

Is it really a leak?  I can't tell how new you are to kegging from you post.  I
could just be the CO2 absorbing into the beer.  It does look like a leak and
sounds like what you are describing.

If it really and truly is a leak then you should be able to do some basic leak
detection tests.  Pressurize an *empty* keg.  Use some soapy water and look for
bubbles.  You could also fill a tub with water and dunk the tank to look for
air bubbles leaking out.

If you have a leak start with the simple things first.  Examine the sealing
surfaces for scratches and dings.  Smooth then out using abrasive material. 
Check the orings and seals.  If they are dry or cracked replace them.  I use
some over sized keg lid seals that I picked up from Williams Brewing.  I don't
know if they still have them or not, check their website.  

Some other choices are to buy a new keg or as you mentioned, quit kegging. 
Then again, what fun are the last two options?

John

- ---------------------------------------------------------

From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
>OK a duhhh question.  I have almost stopped kegging
>because of pressure loss in the kegs.  It seems due to
>small slow leaks in the keg lid o-rings (new, old and
>middle aged).  It is impossible to keep a keg on a
>pressure system when it leaks as the CO2 tank is
>rapidly depleted (duhhh).  



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:48:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chip Stewart" <Charles at thestewarts.com>
Subject: Tap Handles & Love Handles

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Smallaxe27 at aol.com inquired about Making Tap Handles: 
>  Has anyone in the group made their own tap handles?

I've made all of my one tap handles and had a lot of fun with it.  I just used
chair legs from Lowe's that cost a couple of bucks each.  Using my vice (no, not
my beer drinking habit, but the big steel one in the shop), I removed the metal
threaded part in the top, then drilled and inserted it in the bottom.  After
clamping the threaded part in my drill, I had a makeshift lathe that I used to
shape and sand the handle.  After removing the threaded metal part, it screws to
my taps fairly securely.

Oh, and in (late) response to the various surveys:
(1) I'm fortunate enough to live on Gold Kettle Drive.  I think Gold Kettle
Brewery has a nice ring to it.  Just glad I don't live on Swill lane.
(2) I average about 2 beers a night.  I've cut back a bit as I have to work
harder to lose weight as I near 40 (guess that's the answer to que. 3).  When I
turned 30, I realized daily consumption of ice cream, potato chips, and beer was
beginning to form a fatty deposit around my mid-section.  I've managed to almost
entirely eliminate the first two items, but am not willing to cut out the third
 - I'd rather live a good life than a long life!
(3) See above


Chip Stewart
Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Support anti-Spam legislation.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org


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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:56:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: g flo <gflo77 at yahoo.com>
Subject: kids and beer

I don't have any kids yet... but I thought I'd lend my
opinion and experience.  My parents don't really
drink... at all.  I have never seen my parents any
where near intoxicated, and they never really kept
anything more than a couple bottles of wine in the
house.  Well.. in spite of that I turned out utterly
obsessed with alcohol.  I used to bartend, I make my
own beer, and if it were legal, I'd be making my own
booze.  At the same time I also have a healthy respect
for alcohol and use it responsibly.  I plan to have my
kids out there brewing with me.  I have never seen a
little kid who liked the taste of beer, so I am not
too worried about letting them try it, and I plan to
teach them about how alcohol works, and what it does
to you.  I have friends from Chico (not to stereotype)
who grew up around beer.. their parents all drank
beer, and a lot of their families made their own. 
These friends do drink more beer than other people I
know, and they did start drinking at a younger age,
but they are also more knowledgeable, and responsible.
 I think the bottom line is that your responsible use
will lead to their responsible use.

Greg Flores
Santa Cruz, CA
http://emptyboxbrewing.blogspot.com



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:10:31 -0400
From: "Mike Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Beer belly/Bad way to lose weight

 -S writes:
MikeM writes ....,
>>I drink 5 to 6 homebrews (6-7%) daily on weekdays, and 10 to 12 on
>>weekends. My waist size is 32, and I can't even "pinch an inch".

>Yea-gads are those "homebrews" pints  ?  Either way that's a huge amount >of
alc and calories from beer.

Yes those are pints, I've been imbibing at that level for over 10 years.  I
get a full physical exam yearly, and do have slightly elevated liver
indicators.. but only slightly.

 -S

>So he lost weight and  ...
>>Then I got IBS(irritable bowel syndrome)   [and can't eat fats].

Not quite, first I got IBS, which I completely control by not eating excessive
fat, and that resulted in weight loss.

 -S
>IBS is a vague set of symptoms, not a specific disease.

Not quite, IBS is a condition where if I eat a high fat, high roughage diet, I
get the RUNS.  (there is a lot of bogus info re. IBS out there).

 -S
>Here is a list of
>Alcoholic liver disease symptom from Harrison's PoIM.... "Anorexia, >nausea,
vomiting, GI bleeding[causes diarrhea]... and can mimic bile duct
>obstruction [causing difficulty ingesting fats]".

Nope, just the RUNS.

 -S

>I am NOT trying to diagnose alc.liver disease nor alcoholism.   I am just
>pointing out that averaging 7 hi-alc beers per day  is a very high rate,
>unhealthy and could explain the entire set of symptoms.   I'd strongly urge
>Mike to cut back on this consumption rate.

>After reading Mike's rather scary post I've decided to go "on the wagon" for
>a week.- no drinks for me till the 18th.    Alcohol is a wonderfully
enjoyable
>part life, but only so long as one is completely under control.   I average
>around 2.5 pints of mostly 5% beer per day - yet it's a persistent habit
>which deserves periodic interruption.   Please join me Mike - test that you
>are in control of your habit.

Done that, when the liver enzymes were elevated on last years physical exam,
the Dr. had me stop drinking for a week then re tested. . no change..didn't
really find out what that meant.
Frankly, I'm appalled that most posters state they only drink 2-3 homebrews a
day.  I'm half German, half Irish, and drink less than most of my relatives.
I took the AA test that was posted on the Digest last month, and the only
"yes" was "do you have a drink before going to a party?"
I am big on "use, not abuse".  I value my health, and feel I am in complete
control of all my bad habits.
My yearly physical is about due, I'll post an up-date afterwards.

Mike Maag, using not abusing in the Shenandoah Valley, VA




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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:26:49 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Iodophore stain, leaky kegs, 

Brewsters:

David Wilbur iodinized his brewing area with iodophore and asks how to remove
the stain.  If it is iodine, I'd start with potassium metabisulfite available
from homebrew/winemaking shops.  Using it with a little tartaric or whatever
mild acid would help. This should be pretty innocuous to the various finishes.

This suggestion is based on the Ripper method of analysis for SO2 and is
quantitaitve. Avoid overexposure to the SO2 which will be given off by the
acidic m'bite solutions by opening a window if possible or use a fan to direct
it away. As always goggles and rubber gloves.

Painting over it won't help as it will sublime to the surface.  Like that
famous cat, the stain will come back.

Use bleach to keep the nasties out of the water. Just keep the pH around 7.4
to 7.8 for best results and chlorine around 3-10 ppm.  Use your pool test kit.
- ----------------
H. Dowda is having a problem with pressure loss in his kegs.  If you haven't
tried this, measure the pressure in a keg which you are reasonably sure has
been stabilized ( like, at the same pressure for 3 days) , remove all
attachments from the keg and wait a week or so and hook it up again. Measure
the pressure. If it is the same, the keg didn't leak.

If your problem is a leaky keg, you must always  seal the keg with a little
pressure especially if you are doing a natural carbonation.  You can try a
little keg lubricant ( not vaseline) wiped on the ring and then wiped off.
This will help some rings seal better.

The O-rings at the connector fittings may need replacing.

I'll bet your problem is not a leaky keg but a leaky fitting, esp if all the
kegs show the same problem.  I have never had a leaky keg.  Check and replace
all compression fittings with  gas fittings which permit you to dissasemble
and reassemble many times.   I would start with a blanked off line and proceed
through each fitting until you find the leak.  Large leaks can be located with
soapy water or, even better, bubble solution you buy for kids. Just brush or
dripple it around the fitings under pressure.
- ------------------
With regard to those internet spam letters, I already got my $60,000,000
dollars from Africa and, he he, I'm not giving it back.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:34:04 -0400
From: Lee Ellman <lee.ellman at cityofyonkers.com>
Subject: Re: Raising children with beer

I was raised with beer.

I cannot remember a time when I did not have a sip, or more
as I got older, of my father's beer at those meals when 
a beer or two was appropriate. I have a small scar on my index
finger where I slide my finger into the beer can to get a drip more, or
so the family story goes!  Also some wine at Passover and maybe 
a taste of the schnapps before a meal when the uncles
got together.  

I think it demystified the whole drinking thing for me.  I went out just
once with my high school crowd to drink beers and freeze in the woods
and didn't get what the big deal was.  I could have asked my dad for a 
beer, had dinner with it and stayed warm was at home, so why
freeze in the woods?  With the  exception of my college rugby 
years alcohol has never been a big deal.  Beer etc was something
that was a part of normal adult life, shared with the kids as appropriate
and not
thought very much about.

Then comes DARE.  In my pre-homebrew days when my beer consumption
was somewhere around 1 per quarter (...one every three months, not four per 
football game!) my then 6 year old was very worried that
Dad would get drunk from his quarterly beer. And do something terrible. 
Because that is what he took home from the DARE program - that alcohol was
an unalloyed evil thing.  Not quite balanced enough a presentation I think.

Now they see me brewing, bottling and drinking a couple a week and
understand that
I have an unusual hobby that I get a big kick out of.  Picky eaters that
they are
they  don't have the taste for beer that I did as a kid, but that's ok .  I
offer them a 
taste nonetheless just to demystify it and to share a laugh with them.
Nothing like
hearing a 7 year old say "Daaaaaaad, you know I don't drink beer" with all
the wisdom
acquired in his short life and knowing that his dad is a goofball having a
joke with him. 

So, long story short.  I go for the "European" ideal too.  Its all a part of
the growing up
process.  Learning to like funny food and drink that you didn't before and
knowing
when enough has become too much.



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:39:15 -0400
From: "Christian M. Restifo" <zymurgy at sgi.net>
Subject: RE: Raising Children With Beer

I hardly think that what you propose would lead to debauchery. Kids drink
for two reasons, IMHO. 1) It's forbidden, so it's got the cool "I'm breaking
the law and rebelling" bit going. 2) There's a lot of peer pressure so you
also have the cool "I'm breaking the law and rebelling with my cool friends"
bit going. (Of course, some also drink to use alcohol as a drug or due to
things like having alcoholic adults as role models, but I'd wager that's a
smaller percentage.)

However, as anyone can tell you, kids' perceptions and attitudes are greatly
influenced by parents' attitudes and behavior. If your children see you
value real beer as a simple pleasure in life to be enjoyed properly, I think
they would adopt that attitude (assuming they like beer). Yes, there's a
chance your kids will still "rebel" so to speak, but that's the nature of
being a teenager. I'd rather have my kids rebel with me presenting
responsible behavior than having them rebel with me as someone who blatantly
drinks to avoid problems. The key is presenting and advocating long term
attitudes and morals that they can come back to after (or even during)
adolescence.

What it really boils down to, though, is your individual child. If your
child is not mature enough or cannot handle the responsibility, it'd
probably be best not to tempt fate. If your child is mature enough, then
what you propose sounds healthy to me. It's kind of like letting them drive
a car. Will the child be responsible enough? Only a parent can answer that
question.

Finally, I wish more people would consider what you're proposing. My kids
are only 3 years and 16 months old, so I haven't yet experienced the
brainwashing that goes on sometimes. My nieces used to chastize their mom
for having a glass of wine with dinner every now and then. She was "taking
drugs." Maybe if more parents acted in the manner you propose, kids would
learn the difference between what's healthy and acceptable and what's not
instead of being driven by fear.

That's the way I plan on raising my kids. It'll be interesting to see what
type of trouble they get in....;^)

Chris Restifo

Current beer: IPA, dry hopping as we speak



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 20:34:30 +0200
From: "Lee and Ant Hayes" <anleo at worldonline.co.za>
Subject: Raising Children With Beer

Christopher Powers asks about kids and alcohol.

Having grown up in an African household where beer and wine were available
to kids in controlled quantities I must warn that it can result in the kids
becoming brewers (me) or wine makers (my brother) or hard core vegans (my
sister - okay -we don't know what went on there!).

African culture tends to have a less dramatic distinction between kids and
adults - aging is a continuous, not a discreet process.

That being said, no one should drink too much, and for kids, too much is
often not a lot at all.

To move from no alcohol aged under 21 to as much as you like aged over 21
seems a bit daft!
Age restrictions must also be compared with voting age, and military service
age  - both more dangerous rights in the wrong hands.

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg



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