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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  orval/dependence/beginner needs (BrewInfo)
  Hefe yeasts, Westmalle/trappists ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  SUV's/beer on airplanes/Alt recipe/water and attenuation/Rush (BrewInfo)
  Beer for the Homeless? (David Wilbur)
  Iodophor Stains (David Wilbur)
  fundamentals of malting (Grant Family)
  RE: Keg Lid Leaks ("David Houseman")
  RE: Raising Children With Beer ("Pete Calinski")
  Yeast suggestions ("Rob & Robin Beck")
  Schweinshaxe (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: Raising Children with Beer ("Dan McFeeley")
  re: Keg Lid Leaks (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Regular drinking ("Lee and Ant Hayes")
  Re: More AHA ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Weyermann for my vienna? (Grant Family)
  suppliers in Puerto Rico ? ("james trammell")
  RE: Ivory Coast Money Scam . . . (Donald Hellen)
  Spoof on Net Scams (Donald Hellen)


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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:19:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo)
Subject: orval/dependence/beginner needs

My comments on posts from a few weeks ago...

Troy "discovered" Orval and wants to make some.  Well, the key is the
yeast.  Many years ago, I bought a case of Orval (12 bottles) and tried
to culture yeast from each of the bottles.  Most didn't do anything.
Several did, but it didn't smell like Orval.  *ONE* out of 12 bottles
resulted in a starter that smelled just like Orval, so I used that to
make a 5-gallon batch.  I don't have the exact recipe, but I recall
that it was mostly Pale Ale malt, with maybe 5% light crystal and
10 to 15% white table sugar.  I used Styrian Goldings because I had
read that these are the hops they use.  Hop rate is high for Belgian
beers... something like 30IBUs.  It was dryhopped with Styrians, just
like the original.  Those who tasted it were shocked how close I got.
Again, the key is the yeast and you have to just keep trying until
you get the right live culture.

******

David gives the diagnostic criteria for Substance Dependence.

According to it, thanks to 1b, 5, 6, and 7, I find that I'm
clinically dependent on my children (especially #6):

(6) important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given 
up or reduced because of substance use

******

Another Dave wrote:
>Dave asked a question about drilling holes into a small Kenmore 
>refrigerator.

I have two things to add to the discussion:

1. if you drill holes in the fridge, seal the holes well from both
sides so that moisture does not collect in the insulation between
the double walls.  Besides this rendering the insulation nearly
useless, it also makes it a great place for moulds to grow and
infect your brewery.

2. I found that even with the faucets on the INSIDE of the fridge,
I got mould growing in the faucet unless I used them every day or
two.  If I didn't use a faucet for a week and a half, the first
use would shoot a slug of mould into the glass (ick!).  If you
mount the faucets on the *outside* of the fridge, I would imagine
that you would get even faster mold growth.  I would encourage
putting the faucets *inside* the fridge to at least slow the mould
growth.

******
John writes:
>$30.00 as boiling kettle and primary fermenter.  What other hints, tips or
>pieces of equipment not listed in BETTER BEER would be helpful for a brand
>new brewer?

Get a better homebrewing book.  Reese's Better Beer and How to Brew It is
written using outdated techniques and based upon limited ingredients of
compromised quality (i.e. old, stale hops).  Beer is very forgiving and
you can make drinkable beer from the worst recipe and procedures, but
better instruction and recipe will assure the brewer will get better initial
results.

I have a preference for a particular book, but will leave it to others
to suggest it.   As for other good beginner books, although I've never
read his full-length book, I've seen John Palmer's "freebie" instructions
and they are very good.  I would feel very comfortable recommending his
book, sight unseen.

Al.

Al Korzonas
www.brewinfo.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:05:41 -0700
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Hefe yeasts, Westmalle/trappists

A slow reply to the hefe yeast thread a while back as my "solution" was 
still in secondary and waiting to be tasted.  I, too found the Wyeast 3068 
(Weihenstephan Hefeweizen) a little too funky, yet the 1010 american wheat 
_way_ too bland.  Just tapped a keg of a wheat done with Wyeast 3333 German 
Wheat, and this one's just about bang on by my taste.  Could be a _little_ 
more tart, but really, really nice especially in the hot weather.  I would 
highly recommend giving this one a try.

On a semi-related (funky beers) topic, I was disappointed to finally find 
some trappist beer locally (westmalle tripel), and find that while it was a 
very complex beer with many flavours present, most of them were not 
pleasant.  My wife, who will taste anything and likes the funky beers 
[gueze, framboise, the belgian style beers by Quebec's Unibroue and of 
course my wheats ;)] and who has a perhaps better palate than I, pinned them 
as leather, wet cardboard and the stale toast 'champagne' flavor.    The 
beer was not lightstruck and had a beautiful thick white head.

Is this par for the style, or just not one of the better Trappist beers??



Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at (1918 miles, 298 degrees) Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:06:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo)
Subject: SUV's/beer on airplanes/Alt recipe/water and attenuation/Rush


There are a great many experts on HBD in a wide range of fields.  I
would be surprised if someone couldn't confirm or deny this claim
that I once heard somewhere: "Even if you drove your car 100's of
thousands of miles, it will have used less energy in gasoline than
was used to originally build the car."  If this statement is true,
then the gas-guzzler tax and the arguments of all the people who say
we shouldn't drive SUV's because of their fuel consumption go out the
window. No?

******

Regarding beer on airplanes, and shipment of beer in general, it is
far more important to protect the beers from *each* other than from
external impact.  Both are important, but in a hard-sider, the bottles
banging together are a far greater risk of breakage.  I never had
trouble bringing beer back from Europe but haven't had as much need
to travel with beer within the US, so I don't have that much experience
with domestic flights and beer.  In fact, I've never gotten a raised
eyebrow leaving Britain or Belgium with a bunch of beer... usually
the comment is something like "so you like our beer?" along with a
nod and a smile.

******

Thomas asks which Weyermann's Munich I used for my Alt, 1 or 2.
Here in the US, the bags were labeled "Light Munich" and "Dark
Munich."  The only Weyermann's that had numbers were the Carafa
which was labeled "I," "II," and "III," if I recall correctly.
Make sure you aren't mistaking Carafa (which is a roasted malt
and does not have sufficient enzymes to convert itself) for Munich.

I used the Munich Dark.  The mash temperature was around 156F
and the target colour is 13 to 19 SRM.  I was going to convert
this to EBC for you, but my conversion formula specifically says
that it only works for an SRM of 4 or below.  I was going to
give a similarly coloured commercial beer, but am not familiar
enough with Australian beers to give a local example for you.
The beer should be decidedly dark, but not black.  It should
be, perhaps, in the range of moderate-strength tea: a deep,
copper or mahogany colour.

******

Dave asks if water can affect attenuation.  His water was simply
put through a 0.5micron carbon filter.  Steve Alexander wrote me
(and perhaps posted here too) that his post, which I referenced,
in which he said that a carbon filter could reduce calcium and
other ions, was *specifically* regarding Brita filters which
*also* have an ion-exchange media that works similarly to a
sodium-based softener, replacing calcium with (probably) sodium.
If your filter is doing the same thing, then I can understand
why your attenuation would change dramatically.  Firstly, low
calcium water will result in weaker enzyme activity, which will
result in less fermentable beer.  Secondly, low-calcium/medium-
sodium wort is a less-than-ideal place for yeast to live.  So, not
only might you be making less-fermentable wort, but also making
it difficult on your yeast.  Adding some calcium in the form
of calcium sulfate or calcium chloride, after filtering, may help.
I would try that.

******

William mentions Rush.  I happen to be wearing a Vapor Trails shirt
as I type this.  I think that not only are they a great source for
beer names, but also, the complexity of their music make it very
appropriate for accompanying both brewing and consumption of our
finished product.  "Pass me another 'Barchetta Red.'" ;^)

Al.

Al Korzonas
www.brwewinfo.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:20:38 -0700
From: David Wilbur <dave at infolure.com>
Subject: Beer for the Homeless?

"This site is dedicated to the thousands of men and women in America who 
have been relegated to the status of children, regardless of their age, by 
the do-gooders of society who believe that merely because a person has no 
home they should therefore not be allowed to drink beer."

http://www.beerforthehomeless.com/index.htm

This brought to mind the saying that goes something like:  "Give a man a 
fish and he eats for one day.  Teach a man to fish and he eats for the rest 
of his life."

Perhaps there should be a "homeless brew club?"  (Donated ingredients, of 
course...)

David Wilbur
Scottsdale, Arizona



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:22:38 -0700
From: David Wilbur <davew at gibraltar.com>
Subject: Iodophor Stains

"At least everything is sanitized now."
                   - Owner of my LHBS, with tongue in cheek

- ---------------
Paul Kensler writes:

 >Good luck with your iodine walls!  Hopefully you'll
 >understand if I can't help but laugh...

I understand and expected a certain amount of that.

 >once the iodine is gone, the remaining solution is actually
 >a good medium for bacteria to grow in.  In other
 >words, its worse than using plain water.

 >I would highly recommend Five Star's Star San (no
 >affiliation).  The active ingredient doesn't evaporate
 >and the solution doesn't stain (its clear).

If read the ingredients right, $tar $an is basically two kinds of 
acid.  Iodophor is Iodine (small amount) and an acid (about 40%).  Where is 
the nutrient (or whatever) that makes it worse than plain water?  Is it 
just because the PH is "out of whack"?  Granted, "clear" and "doesn't 
evaporate" are attractive, but bleach is less expensive.  I will, however, 
drain and re-fill the water. (Did that presenter work for Five $tar?)

- --------------
Dave Burley writes:

 >I'd start with potassium metabisulfite available from homebrew/winemaking 
shops.
 >Using it with a little tartaric or whatever mild acid would help.

I will try that and let everyone know how it turns out.  I have also 
received suggestions for ammonia and distilled white vinegar.  Anyone 
else?  There are plenty of spots left!

 >Painting over it won't help as it will sublime to the surface.

I received an email from another reader who said that painting was my only 
hope.  I have opted to make painting the "last resort" and try the 
suggestions for cleaning solutions first.  If you're right, Dave, I don't 
want to paint it then have to clean it anyway.

 >Use bleach to keep the nasties out of the water. Just keep the pH around 7.4
 >to 7.8 for best results and chlorine around 3-10 ppm.  Use your pool test 
kit.

You are starting to sound like the guy at the pool store.  If it works in 
my pool, why not!  Sounds like good advice.  BTW: How did you know I had a 
pool?  Oh yeah, everyone here has a pool...and an air conditioner.

- ---------------

Perhaps the simplest solution would be to just name the brewery according 
the color scheme and ignore it.

David Wilbur
"Diabetic Urine Sample Brewery"...(Nah!)

P.S.  Thank you all for the advice and suggestions.  I do appreciate it.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 17:18:55 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: fundamentals of malting

g'day,

I may have missed something, but why is it necessary to kiln the barley 
after it
has started germinating. The way it was explained to me, the function of 
kilning
is to stop the enzymes working until they are needed (in the mash). So, my
question is this: wouldn't it be possible to create a super-light 
(coloured) malt
by mashing it as soon as it has begun to germinate - effectively skipping the
kilning step?

It's not relevant, as I am an all-extract brewer at the moment, by I was just
philosophising...

thanks
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania (the little island off the bottom of Australia :)



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:04:11 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Keg Lid Leaks

Mark's suggestions were right on target.  One other.  I've found that it
seems that none of my many kegs really have interchangeable parts.  Corny's,
Firestone, and other brands.  Different models perhaps.  Different years of
manufacture.  I pretty much keep all the parts from one keg with that keg.
I've found that when I've swapped lids I've had leaks.  Just a different
enough shape of the lid and the opening that it wouldn't seal quite right.
So try interchanging them if you have mixed them up.

Dave Houseman



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 11:10:27 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: RE: Raising Children With Beer

Well, I have four children.  Two in their late twenties and two exactly
twenty.  All of them have always had permission to drink in my presence.
They have all helped me homebrew before they "got too old" for the old man's
stuff.

I can site numerous examples of how responsible they are about drinking.
Too numerous to list. I also have numerous examples of children that were
raised in an "alcohol free" environment that abuse alcohol, in some cases
resulting in their death.

Of course, this doesn't prove anything but doesn't it stand to reason that a
proper, controlled introduction to something is more likely to be successful
than just dumping them into it?  It works that way for driving, hunting,
boating, and any other endeavor I can think of.

Just my $0.02.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 10:40:28 -0500
From: "Rob & Robin Beck" <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Yeast suggestions

I'm going to be doing a smoked porter and am looking for Wyeast yeast
suggestions. I,ve been thinking about NW ale #1332 or perhaps #1056, run at
a slightly higher temp of 70 degF/71 degF.
Thanks
Rob Beck
Kansas City




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 10:11:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Schweinshaxe

C'mon guys, if you tell us where you are writing from, we might
be able to help you locally.  Rick writes:

> Sorry I can't be of more help.  After 11 years of
> trying, I'm convinced the only way to get a real one
> is to fly to Germany to enjoy it in person.
> 
> Rick Seibt
> Bierstien Brewery
> ale_brewer at yahoo.com

Well, Rick, I hate to waste bndwidth on this since there a
99% chance you don't live around here (although others might, 
hence I'll go ahead and post), but there are places that can 
serve you a Schweinshaxe exactly like in Germany.  Here's one:

Schamankerl Stube, Potomac Street at Antieitam, Hagerstown, MD

Nice German beer selection, too.  You should call ahead 24 hours
to reserve your Haxe, since it's that special-cut thing.  And 
I can vouch for the Schweinshaxe -- I lived in Erding for over 
4 years, not far from Munich, and the Haxen were my favourite 
beer hall "snack". 

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 13:33:52 -0500
From: "Dan McFeeley" <mcfeeley at keynet.net>
Subject: Re: Raising Children with Beer

Thought I'd add a little more to this thread --

In general, research has shown that a number of
cultures have lower rates of alcoholism as compared
to others.  Some of the factors that have been
looked at as contributing a positive quality are the
sacral aspect of wine in Judaism, or the Italian habit
of mixing a little red with coffee and giving that to 
children (I'm at work right now, can't give specific
citations, so you guys will have to take this as
anecdotal evidence, at best).

What seems to help most is a healthy attitude 
toward alcoholic beverages, seeing them as a
beverage enjoyed as just that, not as a drug. 
Robert Mondavi's biography, _Harvests of Joy_
brings this out when he compares his Italian
upbringing with his first encounters with US
culture regarding alcohol.  For Mondavi,
wine was joy, celebration, and a natural part 
of good food, to be enjoyed with friends.
He was totally dumfounded in college when
he saw fellow students getting blasted on hard
liquor, for no other purpose than to get drunk.
It was completely contrary to what he had 
been raised with.

Close family relationships, with the importance 
of the meal table as a gathering place hasn't 
been looked at closely as a factor in apparently
alcoholism resistant cultures, to the best of my
knowledge, but I would guess that is a strong 
one.  It was certainly a factor in the Italian
culture Mondavi grew up with, and was a strong
influence in how he developed his winery.

I think you can look at homebrewing in the same
way, as having the potential for teaching children
healthy attitudes toward alcoholic beverages.  This
is when beer can be appreciated as something 
flavorful, a part of the table that goes well with
different foods, having different styles and a long
and interesting history.  Read Jeff Renner's Zymurgy
article on brewing CAP's, especially the first section
recapturing what it was like when CAP's were a part
of the US brewing scene, and you'll get a vivid image
of how well specific beer styles pair with different
foods.

Of course, something to keep in mind is that none 
of the above can be considered as strictly causal.
It's never a question of nature v/s nurture; it's 
a dynamic, and usually highly individualized 
*relationship* between nature and nurture.  And,
with all things considered, the individual can; and
does make individual choices.  Even with the
best of upbringing, kids can still make disastrous
choices.  As parents, we do our best and hope for
the best.

<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley




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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:07:51 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: re: Keg Lid Leaks

Some very good suggestions have been posted already that I will not 
duplicate.  However, one that no one has mentioned is high pressure.  If 
you do all the things people suggest and still get leaks, try pressurizing 
for a short while up to 40 to 60 psi and see if the leak disappears.  This 
is usually enough to seat the most recalcitrant lid or poppet.  Then once 
the leak stops, bleed down the pressure to a reasonable level and it will 
generally stay without leak.

If you have a leak at the lid because of a dinged lip, careful use of a 
soft stick tapped with a hammer can usually straighten it out.

And if you have leaks in the poppets, disassemble the poppet from the plug 
body and use a teeny bit of keg lube.  This will generally solve any leaky 
poppets.  Poppets usually leak because they fail to go all the way back in.

dion

- --
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen



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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 13:58:45 +0200
From: "Lee and Ant Hayes" <anleo at worldonline.co.za>
Subject: Regular drinking

Steve Alexander wrote,

"It's reassuring to know that this regular habit of drinking which I
practice 350+
days a year and which horribly addicts many thousands is still under control
in my own life."

A good test is to drink no alcohol for a month without telling anyone why.
The peer pressure to drink is greater than most of us realise. After the
first time that I tried this, I cut back on encouraging other people to try
my beer.
I now offer once, but if they're not keen, so be it.

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 07:29:58 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: More AHA

As part of my post the other day I wrote:
> I think you'd then agree there's more
> to the AHA than just Zymurgy (or the PDP, events like Big Brew, Mead Day or
> Teach a Friend to Brew Day, or discounts & special sessions for the Great
> American Beer Festival, TechTalk, the AHA Beertown website, the sanctioned
> competitions program (including the Club-Only Competitions & the National
> Homebrew Conference (by far the largest comp around), not to mention
> participating in key support for the brewing community - including both home
&
> pro brewers, etc).

Well, that brings me to something probably unheard of in the annals of the
HBD... a second apology!!!
And for both apologies to be from me is totally unheard of cause I'm never
wrong :-)

While the list of member benefits I mentioned wasn't totally complete, there
was one glaring omission that prompts this post. I want to apologize to
Lallemand, Siebel Institute & our own Rob Moline for failing to mention the
Siebel Scholarship. You all know Rob Moline here on the HBD through his
alter-ego of Jethro Gump. Rob is a home brew, a pro brewer and a tireless
advocate of brewers helping brewers (not to mention being another member of
the AHA BOA who's a regular on the HBD). Rob had prevailed on Lallemand to
fund a scholarship to Siebel's WBA Concise Course ($2900) as well as $1000 to
help with expenses while taking the course. The winner of the scholarship is
chosen by drawing at the NHC (though you don't have to be present to win). The
odds of winning this are waayyy better than of winning the lottery! Anyhow, I
probably suppressed it in my mind cause as a member of the BOA I'm not
eligible to enter the drawing, and I'd so like to go!! As Gump has said,
Siebel is pretty much Beer Heaven, and this benefit of AHA membership
certainly deserves repeated mention.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 22:18:27 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Weyermann for my vienna?

g'day,

I was very pleased to discover that I have access to some Weyermann malts for
my upcoming vienna lager. It this stuff orright? I assume it it :) - but if
anyone had any comments on Weyermann generally, or on it suitability for a
vienna, that would be great. Also, if anyone has suggestions for which
varieties to use (my local only has a few selections) I would appreciate it.

thanks
Stuart brewing in
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.



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Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:46:06 -0700
From: "james trammell" <jamestrammell at mindspring.com>
Subject: suppliers in Puerto Rico ?

My Brother is moving to Puerto Rico he is in the Coast Guard and he 
needs a place to buy Grain and stuff there does anyone know of anyplace 
that sells brewing ingredients ?

Oh I think he will be stationed in Aquadilla on the northwest part of 
the Island


              {<= James Richard Trammell =>}              
        {<= jamestrammell at mindspring.com=>}


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Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:24:11 -0400
From: Donald Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: RE: Ivory Coast Money Scam . . .

On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 06:05:07 -0700, "Lambert" wrote (would
you believe, all the way from the Netherlands!):

LAMBERT GUEI.
HARLEM, THE NETHERLANDS.
E-MAIL: lambert_g at rediffmail.com 
DEAR SIR,
I AM LAMBERT GUEI, THE SON OF LATE ROBERT GUEI EX-MILITARY
HEAD OF STATE OF IVORY COAST, WHO WAS MURDERED ALONG WITH
THE INTERIOR
MINISTER ON THE 19TH OF SEPTEMBER 2002.

What??? No beer to offer us homebrewers? Why should we
bother to help you for only a few paltry million US
dollars??? Not a good approach for this group.

Also, you'll scare less people away if YOU QUIT YELLING AT
US!!!

Don Hellen



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Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:24:14 -0400
From: Donald Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: Spoof on Net Scams

Hi,

My name is Nathan Busch, relative (2nd, 3rd, or 4th cousin)
to the famous Busch family who produces a world-famous thin
and foul tasting mass marketed beer. I have been disowned by
the family because of my stand against mass marketed thin
beers. 

I am a homebrewer, and I have spent lots of money on
homebrewing equipment. Unfortunately, my daughter needs an
operation to transplant a kidney, heart, brain, and liver,
and I must part with some of my equipment.

I am offering my 20 cornelius kegs, a HERMS system with a 50
gallon capacity, a 20 lb. CO2 tank with manifold and
individual regulators for each of 15 connections, 150 feet
of tubing for the kegging operation, 15 taps, two converted
Sankey kegs for boilers, 2 high-pressure controllable LP
burners, a 50 gallon conical fermenter, and much more.

All I am asking for this is the sum of $300, which is the
down payment I must have for the operation. You will need to
give me your bank account number form which I will withdraw
the $300, plus a reasonable shipping and handling fee which
will appear on your bank statement.

I do ask that your account be in good standing, with a
minimum of $20,000 US dollars in the account, to show good
faith in this transaction. 

Please reply to 2good2btrue at imasucker.com and I will take
care of the rest.

Please, serious buyers only. In case there are more than two
people interested, I will offer the equipment to the person
with the highest balance in their bank account just to be
fair. 

Nathan



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