---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Low Alcohol Homebrews (Giles Lean)
  Re: "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy"  (Giles Lean)
  Re: TEA!?!?  (Giles Lean)
  British Food Centre (nntas)
  Red Star and Attenuation (Eric Pepke)
  Red Star (again) (Doug Roberts)
  Orlando Brew Pubs (Paul Emerson)
  What are "ruby Nebs" and what is "Bahl" - Anderson Valley Boont Amber (John Mellby)
  buldging can (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: Weiss beer (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Yet more on Red Star (Jeff Benson)
  Yeastie beasties (CRF)
  invert sugar and stainless brewpots (mage!lou)
  Chuck Cox said it (mage!lou)
  wheat beer additional comment (florianb)
  Lauter Tun design and a name from the past (Pete Soper)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 May 90 19:14:50 W
From: Giles Lean <giles at aso.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Low Alcohol Homebrews


Norm Hardy writes:

> Is there something WRONG with beer that has less than .5% alcohol?  Does 
> alcohol have to be a major part of the equation?  

> Question:  would homebrewers like to try a brewing system that allowed them
> to make excellent beers with a lower final alcohol level?

Certainly! There are times when more light beer is better than less
heavy beer. (Insert your favourite instance -- drink driving laws and
abstemious friends are likely candidates!)

Brewing a light beer rather than buying is attractive (if a homebrewer
needs more motivation :-) since the all the Australian low alcohol
beers I've tried have been uniformly awful.  Admittedly all from large
brewers -- they are the only ones that make the low alcohol beers.
(And, ok, their full strength products are not too great either, in
all but one case!)

Interestingly, they share the same characteristics: less flavour than
full strength beers, and an off taint that I cannot identify but which
allows the easy identification of light beers.

Anyone with information or ideas?

Giles Lean
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hewlett Packard	Australian Software Operation, Melbourne.	
Australia:	giles at aso.hp.oz		   (03)  871 1647
Internet:	giles at aso.hp.com	   +61 3 871 1647




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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 19:32:49 W
From: Giles Lean <giles at aso.hp.com>
Subject: Re: "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy" 

John Polstra writes:
> The problem is that it is an English book, and the recipes call for all
> sorts of strange ingredients that just aren't readily available here in
> the USA.  (E.g., invert sugar, barley syrup, brewers caramel, demerara
> sugar, black treacle ...)  Also, many of the recipes call for "brown
> sugar", which is not the same here as it is in England.

The problem is often not what isn't available, but that you don't know
what it really is. Americans name things so strangely. :-)

rec.gourmand (or whatever name it had before its demise) coped with
international recipies, and the only ingredient I remember that had no
alternate name or substiute was Australian Golden Syrup!  (Hard to
describe -- made (mostly or entirely) from cane sugar, with a
treacle-like consistency, and quite a strong flavour.)

Try asking the net -- anyone in England reading?

Giles Lean
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hewlett Packard	Australian Software Operation, Melbourne.	
Australia:	giles at aso.hp.oz		   (03)  871 1647
Internet:	giles at aso.hp.com	   +61 3 871 1647



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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 19:40:40 W
From: Giles Lean <giles at aso.hp.com>
Subject: Re: TEA!?!? 


Al Korzonas writes:

> Good gosh Chris! TEA! What about homebrew?!?!?  I pre-boil my water
> to kill off nasties and then chill it.  Since I suddenly, with the
> purchase of a home, must pay for water, I think that I will (and
> should have been even when it was "free") be more frugal with the
> water I use.  I'll probably catch gallons 2 through 6 and use them
> for the next batch.

For curiosities sake, you might be interested to know that here in
Victoria, Australia there are move afoot to make paying for water like
gas and electricity. The occupier pays. Now, will my rent go down?

(And yes, the flurry of postings is because I'm just reading about two
months of digests at one time. My own time, naturally! At least the
suspense of waiting for answers to other people's questions is gone!)

Giles Lean
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hewlett Packard	Australian Software Operation, Melbourne.	
Australia:	giles at aso.hp.oz		   (03)  871 1647
Internet:	giles at aso.hp.com	   +61 3 871 1647




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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 05:28:46 PDT
From: nntas at robots.span.nasa.gov
Subject: British Food Centre



	Hello,

Here is the address for the British Food Centre:

British Food Centre
Kirkwood Plaza
1800 W. Campbell Ave.
Campbell, CA  95008

(408)374-7770

Good Luck and Good Brewing

Tim Sauerwein



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Date:    Thu, 31 May 1990 9:58:48 EDT
From: PEPKE at scri1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Red Star and Attenuation

After hearing all these assertions that Red Star ale yeast is not attenuative
enough, I confess to a different problem: Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast is
*too* attenuative.  I use it to make cider from apple juice.  It works very
well and produces a very nice flavor, but I would like it to leave just a
little bit more sugar in the result.  I have started a batch using Red Star
California Champagne yeast, whatever that is, and I'll see if that works any
better.  

Eric Pepke                                     INTERNET: pepke at gw.scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute  MFENET:   pepke at fsu
Florida State University                       SPAN:     scri::pepke
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052                     BITNET:   pepke at fsu

Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions.
Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.

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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 08:32:17 MDT
From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Red Star (again)


> Erk?  Perhaps Premier Malt Products Blue Ribbon Diastatic Malt?  (As much
> as Premier is a relic of times gone by, I'd still hate to see their name
> sullied by association with Pabst.:-)


Back in the OLD old days, circa 1960, I remember my dad making home
brew.  I even remember going with hom the the Safeway store to buy
Pabst (or maybe it _was_ Premier) Blue Ribbon Diatetic Malt. It was a
yellow and blue can with a picture of a chubby [fat] lady on the
front. The can held about three pounds of black, highly bitter crud.
His recipes called for one can of that black gunk, and several pounds
of cane sugar.

Yuk.

- --Doug

================================================================
Douglas Roberts                |
Los Alamos National Laboratory |I can resist anything
Box 1663, MS F-609             |  except temptation.
Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545   |  ...
(505)667-4569                  |Oscar Wilde
dzzr at lanl.gov                  |
================================================================

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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 9:43:52 EST
From: decvax!ucf-cs!sdgsun!paul at decwrl.dec.com (Paul Emerson)
Subject: Orlando Brew Pubs



Jim Bauer asked about brew pubs in Orlando.  Well there is only one that I 
know of and it's in Winter Park, right next door to Orlando.  The Mill 
on Fairbanks Ave. was formerly the Winter Park Brewing Company, which 
went belly up.  I think it's a franchise since there is one up the road 
in Gainesville.  I've only been there once since the Mill operation took 
over and they weren't brewing at the time.  But I am told the beer is 
not impressive.  

A better bet would be to visit the Prince of Wales pub a few 100 yards
up the road.  This pub was relocated from England to Winter Park.  Another
pub is the Bull and Bush which is off Bumby on Robinson, (across the street
from the T.G. Lee milk factory).  Of course if you are into pain you could
always go out to Epcot and have a few in England or Germany.  But the whole
Disney scene is expensive, artificial and politically incorrect. 
 
- -- 
Paul J. Emerson                           SDG Division of SAIC 
Senior Technical Manager                  450 Lakemont Ave.
UUCP:{ucf-cs|tarpit}!sdgsun!paul          Winter Park, FL 32792
CIS: 72355,171                            (407) 657-1300

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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 12:52:52 CDT
From: jmellby at ngstl1.csc.ti.com (John Mellby)
Subject: What are "ruby Nebs" and what is "Bahl" - Anderson Valley Boont Amber

From:	NGSTL1::JMELLBY      "John Mellby" 31-MAY-1990 12:50:41.79
To:	JMELLBY
CC:	
Subj:	Ale tasting last Saturday

The Offical Mellby Beer-Tastings, year 3.

This is the Nineteenth such tasting stretching back over two years.

Ales (CA and UK)
- ----  ---------
5/26/90 We were afraid the British ales would be too old, which wasn't the
case.  Some nice ales here!
				JRM	Tom	Roy	Tim	Tot	Ave
Kit Fox Amber			39	37	43	40	159	39.8
Regimental Dinner Ale		41	40	40	37	158	39.5
Sarum Special Pale Ale		33	31	33	34	131	32.8
Red Seal Ale			39	37	39	37	152	38.0
St. Martins Pale Ale		35	36	38	34	143	35.8
Sauel Middletons Ale		27	25	30	27	109	27.3
Anderson Valley Boont Amber	37	39	39	38	153	38.3
New Amsterdam Ale		41	35	40	41	157	39.3

Kit Fox Amber Ale, San Andreas Brewing, Hollister, CA.
Strong Diacetyl aroma with some hops and a little malt.  It tasted like
natural carbonation (relatively thin with small bubbles).  A very
nice authentic ale.

Regimental Dinner Ale, Cantebury Brewing Co., UK
A complex strong ale.  The aroma has strong alcohol tones.  The taste is
complex and may be a little stale.  Strong malt/hops in the taste.
The aftertaste is astringent/hoppy/alcohol.

Sarum Special Pale Ale, Gibbs Mews, Salisbury, UK
Another strong ale, only a little old.  Diacetyl, alcohol, and hops in the
aroma.  Cloudy and loses points on appearance.  The flavor is a little
old, especially a little metallic, astringent aftertaste.

Red Seal Ale, Ruedrich's, North Coast Brewing Co., Ft. Bragg, CA (It also
says Mendocino, "Since 1987").  Great hop aroma (cascade?)!  A very
pretty appearance.  It is light on the malt and slightly astringent in
the aftertaste.

St. Martin's Pale Ale, John Martin, Antwerp.  (Brewed in Antwerp for the UK?)
This is almost a barley wine.  Strong alcohol, hops, malt in the
aroma.  A very pretty beer, with a white head!  The taste is strongly
alcoholic, with a faint sour/Belgian accent.  The aftertaste was flat
hinting that this is a little old.

Samuel Middleton's Ale; Wild Goose Brewing, Cambridge, Maryland.
Not much aroma except a little hops.  Beautiful color with a rocky head.
The flavor was distinctly bad.  Either DMS or diacetyl gone bad. Oxidized.
Maybe phenolic. Alcoholic, astringent, medicinal.

Boont Amber Ale, Anderson Valley Brewing, Boonville, Mendocino Co., CA
On the label is says: "Our pristine 'ruby nebs' makes Boont Amber extra Bahl".
What the heck are "ruby nebs" and what is Bahl?

New Amsterdam Ale, Utica, NY
Diacetyl in the aroma.  Very clear ale.  Slightly dry aftertaste, but
very nice.
Surviving the American Dream
John R. Mellby                       Texas Instruments
jmellby%ngstl1.ti.com                P.O.Box 660246, MS 3645
                                     Dallas Texas, 75266
(214)517-5370                       (214)343-7585
****************************************************************
* "Virtually no one's allowed to vote...women, servants,       *
* chimpanzees (gestures to Baldrick)...even lords."            *
*                                                              *
* "That's not true, Lord Nelson's got a vote."                 *
*                                                              *
* "He's got a boat, Baldrick."                                 *
*                 -- BlackAdder                                *
****************************************************************

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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 12:03:44 mdt
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: buldging can

I've got a buldging can of extract (from not brewing frequently
enough - no doubt!).  Since it's going to be boiled anyway, I'm
not going to worry, but am I missing something?  Should I at
least be concerned?  By the way, it's Edme DMS and is about 1.5
years old.  Hey! Wasn't I the one who mentioned to Cher that
DMS has active enzymes?  Couldn't those enzymes now be doing
something to buldge the can?

Al.


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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 12:03:53 mdt
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: Weiss beer

60% wheat malt?  I guess I said 40% wheat malt - you may be right.
On the other hand, TCJoHB by Papazian suggests that Weiss (or Weizen)
should be brewed at ale temperatures, so I believe that maybe an ale
yeast might be more applicable.  Just a side note: another style of
Weiss beer is Berliner Weiss (as opposed to the Bavarian Weiss Beer
that John mentioned) which is characterized by a lactobaccilus (sp?)
sourness.  Actually, the habit of putting lemon in Weiss Beer came from
the days before refridgeration, when the lightly-hopped Weiss would
"spoil" and become sour (from lactobaccilus (sp?) probably). The
lemon was put in to (somehow) mask the bacterial sourness.

Al.


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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 13:11:23 CDT
From: Jeff Benson <benson at chemsun.chem.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Yet more on Red Star


Lately a lot of folks have been slamming Red Star yeast.  Since I have
have used it a lot in my own brewing, I'd like to stir my own
observations into the controversy (for what their worth).  Also, I'm a
new subscriber to "Homebrew Digest" and I feel it's time I start
contributing as well as observing.

I have used both Red Star ale and lager yeast extensively over the past
3 years, mostly because it's nearly the only brand the local homebrew
shops carry.  However, my results have not been nearly so dismal as Doug
Roberts reported a couple issues ago.  The beers I have made with Red
Star have by and large been of average quality -- nothing particularly
outstanding but generally tasty nontheless.  Perhaps my palate is rather
uneducated but my friends don't seem to complain about my homebrew
either.  So to Cher Feinstein I say:  Relax.  Your beer will likely be
just fine.  As Florian pointed out in ish #429, you need to experiment,
find out what works and stick with what you like.

Now this is not to imply that I am completly satisfied with Red Star,
far from it.  Dick Dunn commented in #429 on Doug Roberts' reported end
gravity of 1.022 in a beer made with Red Star saying:
> There's something a lot more wrong than just Red Star yeast here! A
> "less attenuative" yeast might give you something like 1.012 instead of
> 1.008, but landing way up at 1.022 says there's something faulty in the
> procedure or perhaps just-plain-damaged yeast.
Perhaps so, but I can verify that I have had a lot of difficulty getting
end gravities of less than 1.015 when using Red Star.  This may be
partly attributable to the fact that I make mostly darker, heavier brews
but it is a pretty consistent trend.

I am also not particularly fond of Red Star lager for another reason  --
it doesn't act like a lager yeast!  While these yeasties seem to take
off like gangbusters when my fermenter is at room temp, they seem to
shut down completely when ambient is less than 60 deg.  What kind of
lager yeast is that?!  Last January I pitched a pack of Red Star
lager into a just cooled wort (temp in the mid 80s F) and brought the
carboy into the basement where the temp was probably in the high 50s.
The fermentation didn't start until I finally got worried and brought
the carboy back upstairs, whence it began within a few hours.  Perhaps I
am naive to assume a primary fermentation can proceed when the
temperature is in the 50s F but my impression from other brews is that
Red Star lager is a decidedly warm-blooded yeast.  I am currently using
Vierka lager on a brew and it appears to act more like I'd expect in a
lager yeast.

Any comments on my observations?

Jeff "Bucky" Benson            benson at chemsun.chem.umn.edu
Univ. of Minnesota
Minneapolis, MN  55455


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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 14:55 EST
From: CRF at PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU
Subject: Yeastie beasties

Hi there!

My thanks to everyone who gave me feedback on the subject of yeasts!

Since posting my query, I've also talked to the people at my homebrew supply 
store.  They have stopped carrying Red Star ale yeast, although they still 
carry the lager yeast.  What they had to say boiled down to:  1) they had 
enough complaints about the RS ale yeast to drop it; 2) they haven't had any 
complaints about the RS lager yeast; 3) everyone likes the Doric yeast.

I think it's quite possible that water may be an important factor here.  My 
own decision is that I'm going to mail order some Whitbread and/or Edme yeasts 
along with some Bavarian weiss yeast.  I want the weiss yeast for my
framboise, and want my mail order to be cost effective, after all.  Then, I'll
compare these to the Doric I have on hand as time passes.  I know there are
certain recipes I'll be making repeatedly, like my doppelbock, which will
enable me to compare.   I'll see what I like.  I'm in no rush.

Thanks again!!


                         Yours in Carbonation,

                                      Cher 


"Sleep faster; we need the pillows!" -- Yiddish proverb
=============================================================================

	Cheryl Feinstein              INTERNET:  CRF at PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU
	Univ. of Fla.                 BITNET:  CRF at UFPINE
	Gainesville, FL

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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 13:54:05 MDT
From: hplabs!mage!lou
Subject: invert sugar and stainless brewpots

in HBD #428  nntas at robots.span.nasa.gov writes:

>First, I have read both excerpts from Line's books reguarding invert sugar and
>quite frankly I am no closer to discovering what Dave is talking about.  I feel
>that what he means is corn sugar and I'll test this and get back with the 
>results.

Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner but I assumed that other readers with a
tendancy to comment on anything would have done so already.  According to C.
Papazian, "Invert sugar is a type of sugar that is made from an acid treatment
of sucrose.  The name `invert' refers to the optical effect that a solution of
invert sugar has on light."  (TCJoHB, p. 79).  I realize that this is still
somewhat vague and offers little help in finding it but I think you can elimate
corn suger (dextrose) as a candidate.

I made a couple of phone calls here in Boulder and got the following:

    "Colonel" John Canaday: answer #1: It's just corn sugar.
			    answer #2 (when pushed): It's sucrose (cane sugar)
				      that's been boiled with a little bit of
				      citric acid to convert the di-saccaride
				      to a mono-saccaride.

    Dan Fink at the AHA office (an arrogant young nerd who can tell you with
    utter conviction that there is only one "right" way to brew beer):

	Invert sugar is just table sugar that has been boiled.  Therefore,
	when you use table sugar your are effectively using invert since you
	boil it anyway.  Dave Line's books use outdated technology - use dry
	malt extract instead since table sugar will give you a cidery taste.

You now know as much as I do and can make your own conclusions.  My conclusion
is that the Colonel's answer #2 is probably close and that you will probably be
happier with the results of using dry malt extract instead.

##########################

Also, Andy Wilcox writes:

>I've been looking around and pricing 6gal stainless brewpots, and have
>found some decent deals < $80.  However, all of these are ALL
>stainless, meaning no aluminum bottom.  I seem to recall that the all
>stainless pots have a tendency to scorth.  Can anyone confirm or deny
>this?  Is anybody satisfied with their *all* stainless pot?

I use a 4gal all stainless pot that I use for extract brewing (e.g. higher SG
than full wort boil and more likely to scorch).  I used to have scorching
problems before I got a heavy-duty wire trivet (~10 guage steel) to place under
the pot.  It was sold to heat a glass coffee carafe on an electric stove (alas,
I have an electric stove).  When I'm through brewing, I can see a faint outline
of the trivit on the inside of the pot, which cleans off with just a sponge, but
no signs of scorching in even the lightest colored brews.  The one exception to
this was when I applied full heat before fully dissolving the extract in water
and there was layer of straight extract resting on the bottom of the pot.  (BTW
this produced a *much* darker wort than a batch made the next evening with
virtually identical ingredients that were dissolved first.)

Louis Clark
reply to: mage!lou at ncar.ucar.edu


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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 13:55:19 MDT
From: hplabs!mage!lou
Subject: Chuck Cox said it

In HBD #429 Chuck Cox writes:

>but what the hell, I'm an overpaid nerd, I can afford it.

I think that we can thank Chuck for finally clearing up a controversy that
raged on this mailing list some months back.  He's America's nerdiest beer
judge.


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Date: 31 May 90 12:34:25 PDT (Thu)
From: florianb%tekred.cna.tek.com at RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: wheat beer additional comment

In HBD #429, John Polstra offers some comments about the haziness of 
wheat beers and alludes to the ignorance of American beer judges when
it comes to genuine wheat beer.  I appreciated the accuracy of these
comments, John.  I think you hit it right on.  In addition, the appearance
and tast of German wheat beers is highly regional dependent.  Even within
the same region of Germany, wheat beers can be vastly different.  I enjoyed
in several instances two wheat beers from the same brewery, one being 
Hefe Weizen and the other Krystal Weizen.  These were often served with
lemon slices, particularly consumed in the heat of summer, and many induced
the drinker to visit the leak tank shortly thereafter.  Unless the judge were
familiar with these genuine varieties, it is likely a very good weizen beer
could be misjudged.  I myself would be a poor judge of this variety, since
it's been two years since I tasted a fresh German wheat beer, and memory fades
rapidly.  I can imagine how poorly I would judge them if I hadn't had the
good luck to consume them in the past.

Florian.

"Where did they get this value?  They didn't even measure it.  They just
went and looked it up in a book.  A twenty-year-old book!"...Lothar Ley

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Date: Thu, 31 May 90 17:09:40 EDT
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: Lauter Tun design and a name from the past

  I'm making a new lauter tun based on the "slotted pipe" scheme.
I've got 3/8" OD copper pipe arranged in a coil in the bottom 
of a 5 gallon cylindrical Gott cooler. The coil covers the bottom
surface (which is about 10" diameter) with 1/8 to 1/4" gaps between turns.
How many slots do I need to get proper drainage? Can too many slots cause
a problem? If I cut these with an abrasive cutoff wheel I can get 1/32
inch slots or 1/16 inch slots, depending on the wheel. Which is better
or do I need a different width? Do any of you see something that might
trip me up with this. I'm using the cylindrical cooler because I have it
and it would provide the same depth of grain bed as I've used
in the past. I wonder however whether a more shallow bed like you would
get with a larger, rectangular cooler (and the usual amount of grain for a
5-6 gallon batch) is desirable or even mandatory with this kind of tun. 
Have any of you seen the bottom of Byron Burch's tun or read a description?
If so, how much tubing and how many slots would you guestimate it has?
I'd greatly appreciate any words of wisdom about this.

  Remember "Ye Olde Batte"? She just called me on the phone. I was nearly 
speechless. She is in Chatanooga and will be bringing her "rig" this way 
over the weekend. I'll say "hi" for you all. She did call it a "rig".  Could
she have switched from mythology or whatever it was at that university
in Canada to driving an 18 wheeler? If so it is most likely one of the few rigs
around with a batch of mead aging in the back of the cab.
- ----------
Pete Soper (soper at encore.com)                          +1 919 481 3730
Encore Computer Corp, 901 Kildaire Farm Rd, bldg D, Cary, NC 27511 USA

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #430, 06/01/90
*************************************
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