HOMEBREW Digest #430 Fri 01 June 1990

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		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  Re: Low Alcohol Homebrews (Giles Lean)
  Re: "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy"  (Giles Lean)
  Re: TEA!?!?  (Giles Lean)
  British Food Centre (nntas)
  Red Star and Attenuation (Eric Pepke)
  Red Star (again) (Doug Roberts)
  Orlando Brew Pubs (Paul Emerson)
  What are "ruby Nebs" and what is "Bahl" - Anderson Valley Boont Amber (John Mellby)
  buldging can (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: Weiss beer (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Yet more on Red Star (Jeff Benson)
  Yeastie beasties (CRF)
  invert sugar and stainless brewpots (mage!lou)
  Chuck Cox said it (mage!lou)
  wheat beer additional comment (florianb)
  Lauter Tun design and a name from the past (Pete Soper)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 May 90 19:14:50 W From: Giles Lean <giles at aso.hp.com> Subject: Re: Low Alcohol Homebrews Norm Hardy writes: > Is there something WRONG with beer that has less than .5% alcohol? Does > alcohol have to be a major part of the equation? > Question: would homebrewers like to try a brewing system that allowed them > to make excellent beers with a lower final alcohol level? Certainly! There are times when more light beer is better than less heavy beer. (Insert your favourite instance -- drink driving laws and abstemious friends are likely candidates!) Brewing a light beer rather than buying is attractive (if a homebrewer needs more motivation :-) since the all the Australian low alcohol beers I've tried have been uniformly awful. Admittedly all from large brewers -- they are the only ones that make the low alcohol beers. (And, ok, their full strength products are not too great either, in all but one case!) Interestingly, they share the same characteristics: less flavour than full strength beers, and an off taint that I cannot identify but which allows the easy identification of light beers. Anyone with information or ideas? Giles Lean -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hewlett Packard Australian Software Operation, Melbourne. Australia: giles at aso.hp.oz (03) 871 1647 Internet: giles at aso.hp.com +61 3 871 1647 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 19:32:49 W From: Giles Lean <giles at aso.hp.com> Subject: Re: "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy" John Polstra writes: > The problem is that it is an English book, and the recipes call for all > sorts of strange ingredients that just aren't readily available here in > the USA. (E.g., invert sugar, barley syrup, brewers caramel, demerara > sugar, black treacle ...) Also, many of the recipes call for "brown > sugar", which is not the same here as it is in England. The problem is often not what isn't available, but that you don't know what it really is. Americans name things so strangely. :-) rec.gourmand (or whatever name it had before its demise) coped with international recipies, and the only ingredient I remember that had no alternate name or substiute was Australian Golden Syrup! (Hard to describe -- made (mostly or entirely) from cane sugar, with a treacle-like consistency, and quite a strong flavour.) Try asking the net -- anyone in England reading? Giles Lean -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hewlett Packard Australian Software Operation, Melbourne. Australia: giles at aso.hp.oz (03) 871 1647 Internet: giles at aso.hp.com +61 3 871 1647 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 19:40:40 W From: Giles Lean <giles at aso.hp.com> Subject: Re: TEA!?!? Al Korzonas writes: > Good gosh Chris! TEA! What about homebrew?!?!? I pre-boil my water > to kill off nasties and then chill it. Since I suddenly, with the > purchase of a home, must pay for water, I think that I will (and > should have been even when it was "free") be more frugal with the > water I use. I'll probably catch gallons 2 through 6 and use them > for the next batch. For curiosities sake, you might be interested to know that here in Victoria, Australia there are move afoot to make paying for water like gas and electricity. The occupier pays. Now, will my rent go down? (And yes, the flurry of postings is because I'm just reading about two months of digests at one time. My own time, naturally! At least the suspense of waiting for answers to other people's questions is gone!) Giles Lean -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hewlett Packard Australian Software Operation, Melbourne. Australia: giles at aso.hp.oz (03) 871 1647 Internet: giles at aso.hp.com +61 3 871 1647 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 05:28:46 PDT From: nntas at robots.span.nasa.gov Subject: British Food Centre Hello, Here is the address for the British Food Centre: British Food Centre Kirkwood Plaza 1800 W. Campbell Ave. Campbell, CA 95008 (408)374-7770 Good Luck and Good Brewing Tim Sauerwein Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 1990 9:58:48 EDT From: PEPKE at scri1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) Subject: Red Star and Attenuation After hearing all these assertions that Red Star ale yeast is not attenuative enough, I confess to a different problem: Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast is *too* attenuative. I use it to make cider from apple juice. It works very well and produces a very nice flavor, but I would like it to leave just a little bit more sugar in the result. I have started a batch using Red Star California Champagne yeast, whatever that is, and I'll see if that works any better. Eric Pepke INTERNET: pepke at gw.scri.fsu.edu Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke at fsu Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke at fsu Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions. Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 08:32:17 MDT From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts) Subject: Red Star (again) > Erk? Perhaps Premier Malt Products Blue Ribbon Diastatic Malt? (As much > as Premier is a relic of times gone by, I'd still hate to see their name > sullied by association with Pabst.:-) Back in the OLD old days, circa 1960, I remember my dad making home brew. I even remember going with hom the the Safeway store to buy Pabst (or maybe it _was_ Premier) Blue Ribbon Diatetic Malt. It was a yellow and blue can with a picture of a chubby [fat] lady on the front. The can held about three pounds of black, highly bitter crud. His recipes called for one can of that black gunk, and several pounds of cane sugar. Yuk. - --Doug ================================================================ Douglas Roberts | Los Alamos National Laboratory |I can resist anything Box 1663, MS F-609 | except temptation. Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545 | ... (505)667-4569 |Oscar Wilde dzzr at lanl.gov | ================================================================ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 9:43:52 EST From: decvax!ucf-cs!sdgsun!paul at decwrl.dec.com (Paul Emerson) Subject: Orlando Brew Pubs Jim Bauer asked about brew pubs in Orlando. Well there is only one that I know of and it's in Winter Park, right next door to Orlando. The Mill on Fairbanks Ave. was formerly the Winter Park Brewing Company, which went belly up. I think it's a franchise since there is one up the road in Gainesville. I've only been there once since the Mill operation took over and they weren't brewing at the time. But I am told the beer is not impressive. A better bet would be to visit the Prince of Wales pub a few 100 yards up the road. This pub was relocated from England to Winter Park. Another pub is the Bull and Bush which is off Bumby on Robinson, (across the street from the T.G. Lee milk factory). Of course if you are into pain you could always go out to Epcot and have a few in England or Germany. But the whole Disney scene is expensive, artificial and politically incorrect. - -- Paul J. Emerson SDG Division of SAIC Senior Technical Manager 450 Lakemont Ave. UUCP:{ucf-cs|tarpit}!sdgsun!paul Winter Park, FL 32792 CIS: 72355,171 (407) 657-1300 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 12:52:52 CDT From: jmellby at ngstl1.csc.ti.com (John Mellby) Subject: What are "ruby Nebs" and what is "Bahl" - Anderson Valley Boont Amber From: NGSTL1::JMELLBY "John Mellby" 31-MAY-1990 12:50:41.79 To: JMELLBY CC: Subj: Ale tasting last Saturday The Offical Mellby Beer-Tastings, year 3. This is the Nineteenth such tasting stretching back over two years. Ales (CA and UK) - ---- --------- 5/26/90 We were afraid the British ales would be too old, which wasn't the case. Some nice ales here! JRM Tom Roy Tim Tot Ave Kit Fox Amber 39 37 43 40 159 39.8 Regimental Dinner Ale 41 40 40 37 158 39.5 Sarum Special Pale Ale 33 31 33 34 131 32.8 Red Seal Ale 39 37 39 37 152 38.0 St. Martins Pale Ale 35 36 38 34 143 35.8 Sauel Middletons Ale 27 25 30 27 109 27.3 Anderson Valley Boont Amber 37 39 39 38 153 38.3 New Amsterdam Ale 41 35 40 41 157 39.3 Kit Fox Amber Ale, San Andreas Brewing, Hollister, CA. Strong Diacetyl aroma with some hops and a little malt. It tasted like natural carbonation (relatively thin with small bubbles). A very nice authentic ale. Regimental Dinner Ale, Cantebury Brewing Co., UK A complex strong ale. The aroma has strong alcohol tones. The taste is complex and may be a little stale. Strong malt/hops in the taste. The aftertaste is astringent/hoppy/alcohol. Sarum Special Pale Ale, Gibbs Mews, Salisbury, UK Another strong ale, only a little old. Diacetyl, alcohol, and hops in the aroma. Cloudy and loses points on appearance. The flavor is a little old, especially a little metallic, astringent aftertaste. Red Seal Ale, Ruedrich's, North Coast Brewing Co., Ft. Bragg, CA (It also says Mendocino, "Since 1987"). Great hop aroma (cascade?)! A very pretty appearance. It is light on the malt and slightly astringent in the aftertaste. St. Martin's Pale Ale, John Martin, Antwerp. (Brewed in Antwerp for the UK?) This is almost a barley wine. Strong alcohol, hops, malt in the aroma. A very pretty beer, with a white head! The taste is strongly alcoholic, with a faint sour/Belgian accent. The aftertaste was flat hinting that this is a little old. Samuel Middleton's Ale; Wild Goose Brewing, Cambridge, Maryland. Not much aroma except a little hops. Beautiful color with a rocky head. The flavor was distinctly bad. Either DMS or diacetyl gone bad. Oxidized. Maybe phenolic. Alcoholic, astringent, medicinal. Boont Amber Ale, Anderson Valley Brewing, Boonville, Mendocino Co., CA On the label is says: "Our pristine 'ruby nebs' makes Boont Amber extra Bahl". What the heck are "ruby nebs" and what is Bahl? New Amsterdam Ale, Utica, NY Diacetyl in the aroma. Very clear ale. Slightly dry aftertaste, but very nice. Surviving the American Dream John R. Mellby Texas Instruments jmellby%ngstl1.ti.com P.O.Box 660246, MS 3645 Dallas Texas, 75266 (214)517-5370 (214)343-7585 **************************************************************** * "Virtually no one's allowed to vote...women, servants, * * chimpanzees (gestures to Baldrick)...even lords." * * * * "That's not true, Lord Nelson's got a vote." * * * * "He's got a boat, Baldrick." * * -- BlackAdder * **************************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 12:03:44 mdt From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: buldging can I've got a buldging can of extract (from not brewing frequently enough - no doubt!). Since it's going to be boiled anyway, I'm not going to worry, but am I missing something? Should I at least be concerned? By the way, it's Edme DMS and is about 1.5 years old. Hey! Wasn't I the one who mentioned to Cher that DMS has active enzymes? Couldn't those enzymes now be doing something to buldge the can? Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 12:03:53 mdt From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: Re: Weiss beer 60% wheat malt? I guess I said 40% wheat malt - you may be right. On the other hand, TCJoHB by Papazian suggests that Weiss (or Weizen) should be brewed at ale temperatures, so I believe that maybe an ale yeast might be more applicable. Just a side note: another style of Weiss beer is Berliner Weiss (as opposed to the Bavarian Weiss Beer that John mentioned) which is characterized by a lactobaccilus (sp?) sourness. Actually, the habit of putting lemon in Weiss Beer came from the days before refridgeration, when the lightly-hopped Weiss would "spoil" and become sour (from lactobaccilus (sp?) probably). The lemon was put in to (somehow) mask the bacterial sourness. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 13:11:23 CDT From: Jeff Benson <benson at chemsun.chem.UMN.EDU> Subject: Yet more on Red Star Lately a lot of folks have been slamming Red Star yeast. Since I have have used it a lot in my own brewing, I'd like to stir my own observations into the controversy (for what their worth). Also, I'm a new subscriber to "Homebrew Digest" and I feel it's time I start contributing as well as observing. I have used both Red Star ale and lager yeast extensively over the past 3 years, mostly because it's nearly the only brand the local homebrew shops carry. However, my results have not been nearly so dismal as Doug Roberts reported a couple issues ago. The beers I have made with Red Star have by and large been of average quality -- nothing particularly outstanding but generally tasty nontheless. Perhaps my palate is rather uneducated but my friends don't seem to complain about my homebrew either. So to Cher Feinstein I say: Relax. Your beer will likely be just fine. As Florian pointed out in ish #429, you need to experiment, find out what works and stick with what you like. Now this is not to imply that I am completly satisfied with Red Star, far from it. Dick Dunn commented in #429 on Doug Roberts' reported end gravity of 1.022 in a beer made with Red Star saying: > There's something a lot more wrong than just Red Star yeast here! A > "less attenuative" yeast might give you something like 1.012 instead of > 1.008, but landing way up at 1.022 says there's something faulty in the > procedure or perhaps just-plain-damaged yeast. Perhaps so, but I can verify that I have had a lot of difficulty getting end gravities of less than 1.015 when using Red Star. This may be partly attributable to the fact that I make mostly darker, heavier brews but it is a pretty consistent trend. I am also not particularly fond of Red Star lager for another reason -- it doesn't act like a lager yeast! While these yeasties seem to take off like gangbusters when my fermenter is at room temp, they seem to shut down completely when ambient is less than 60 deg. What kind of lager yeast is that?! Last January I pitched a pack of Red Star lager into a just cooled wort (temp in the mid 80s F) and brought the carboy into the basement where the temp was probably in the high 50s. The fermentation didn't start until I finally got worried and brought the carboy back upstairs, whence it began within a few hours. Perhaps I am naive to assume a primary fermentation can proceed when the temperature is in the 50s F but my impression from other brews is that Red Star lager is a decidedly warm-blooded yeast. I am currently using Vierka lager on a brew and it appears to act more like I'd expect in a lager yeast. Any comments on my observations? Jeff "Bucky" Benson benson at chemsun.chem.umn.edu Univ. of Minnesota Minneapolis, MN 55455 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 14:55 EST From: CRF at PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU Subject: Yeastie beasties Hi there! My thanks to everyone who gave me feedback on the subject of yeasts! Since posting my query, I've also talked to the people at my homebrew supply store. They have stopped carrying Red Star ale yeast, although they still carry the lager yeast. What they had to say boiled down to: 1) they had enough complaints about the RS ale yeast to drop it; 2) they haven't had any complaints about the RS lager yeast; 3) everyone likes the Doric yeast. I think it's quite possible that water may be an important factor here. My own decision is that I'm going to mail order some Whitbread and/or Edme yeasts along with some Bavarian weiss yeast. I want the weiss yeast for my framboise, and want my mail order to be cost effective, after all. Then, I'll compare these to the Doric I have on hand as time passes. I know there are certain recipes I'll be making repeatedly, like my doppelbock, which will enable me to compare. I'll see what I like. I'm in no rush. Thanks again!! Yours in Carbonation, Cher "Sleep faster; we need the pillows!" -- Yiddish proverb ============================================================================= Cheryl Feinstein INTERNET: CRF at PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU Univ. of Fla. BITNET: CRF at UFPINE Gainesville, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 13:54:05 MDT From: hplabs!mage!lou Subject: invert sugar and stainless brewpots in HBD #428 nntas at robots.span.nasa.gov writes: >First, I have read both excerpts from Line's books reguarding invert sugar and >quite frankly I am no closer to discovering what Dave is talking about. I feel >that what he means is corn sugar and I'll test this and get back with the >results. Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner but I assumed that other readers with a tendancy to comment on anything would have done so already. According to C. Papazian, "Invert sugar is a type of sugar that is made from an acid treatment of sucrose. The name `invert' refers to the optical effect that a solution of invert sugar has on light." (TCJoHB, p. 79). I realize that this is still somewhat vague and offers little help in finding it but I think you can elimate corn suger (dextrose) as a candidate. I made a couple of phone calls here in Boulder and got the following: "Colonel" John Canaday: answer #1: It's just corn sugar. answer #2 (when pushed): It's sucrose (cane sugar) that's been boiled with a little bit of citric acid to convert the di-saccaride to a mono-saccaride. Dan Fink at the AHA office (an arrogant young nerd who can tell you with utter conviction that there is only one "right" way to brew beer): Invert sugar is just table sugar that has been boiled. Therefore, when you use table sugar your are effectively using invert since you boil it anyway. Dave Line's books use outdated technology - use dry malt extract instead since table sugar will give you a cidery taste. You now know as much as I do and can make your own conclusions. My conclusion is that the Colonel's answer #2 is probably close and that you will probably be happier with the results of using dry malt extract instead. ########################## Also, Andy Wilcox writes: >I've been looking around and pricing 6gal stainless brewpots, and have >found some decent deals < $80. However, all of these are ALL >stainless, meaning no aluminum bottom. I seem to recall that the all >stainless pots have a tendency to scorth. Can anyone confirm or deny >this? Is anybody satisfied with their *all* stainless pot? I use a 4gal all stainless pot that I use for extract brewing (e.g. higher SG than full wort boil and more likely to scorch). I used to have scorching problems before I got a heavy-duty wire trivet (~10 guage steel) to place under the pot. It was sold to heat a glass coffee carafe on an electric stove (alas, I have an electric stove). When I'm through brewing, I can see a faint outline of the trivit on the inside of the pot, which cleans off with just a sponge, but no signs of scorching in even the lightest colored brews. The one exception to this was when I applied full heat before fully dissolving the extract in water and there was layer of straight extract resting on the bottom of the pot. (BTW this produced a *much* darker wort than a batch made the next evening with virtually identical ingredients that were dissolved first.) Louis Clark reply to: mage!lou at ncar.ucar.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 13:55:19 MDT From: hplabs!mage!lou Subject: Chuck Cox said it In HBD #429 Chuck Cox writes: >but what the hell, I'm an overpaid nerd, I can afford it. I think that we can thank Chuck for finally clearing up a controversy that raged on this mailing list some months back. He's America's nerdiest beer judge. Return to table of contents
Date: 31 May 90 12:34:25 PDT (Thu) From: florianb%tekred.cna.tek.com at RELAY.CS.NET Subject: wheat beer additional comment In HBD #429, John Polstra offers some comments about the haziness of wheat beers and alludes to the ignorance of American beer judges when it comes to genuine wheat beer. I appreciated the accuracy of these comments, John. I think you hit it right on. In addition, the appearance and tast of German wheat beers is highly regional dependent. Even within the same region of Germany, wheat beers can be vastly different. I enjoyed in several instances two wheat beers from the same brewery, one being Hefe Weizen and the other Krystal Weizen. These were often served with lemon slices, particularly consumed in the heat of summer, and many induced the drinker to visit the leak tank shortly thereafter. Unless the judge were familiar with these genuine varieties, it is likely a very good weizen beer could be misjudged. I myself would be a poor judge of this variety, since it's been two years since I tasted a fresh German wheat beer, and memory fades rapidly. I can imagine how poorly I would judge them if I hadn't had the good luck to consume them in the past. Florian. "Where did they get this value? They didn't even measure it. They just went and looked it up in a book. A twenty-year-old book!"...Lothar Ley Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 May 90 17:09:40 EDT From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com> Subject: Lauter Tun design and a name from the past I'm making a new lauter tun based on the "slotted pipe" scheme. I've got 3/8" OD copper pipe arranged in a coil in the bottom of a 5 gallon cylindrical Gott cooler. The coil covers the bottom surface (which is about 10" diameter) with 1/8 to 1/4" gaps between turns. How many slots do I need to get proper drainage? Can too many slots cause a problem? If I cut these with an abrasive cutoff wheel I can get 1/32 inch slots or 1/16 inch slots, depending on the wheel. Which is better or do I need a different width? Do any of you see something that might trip me up with this. I'm using the cylindrical cooler because I have it and it would provide the same depth of grain bed as I've used in the past. I wonder however whether a more shallow bed like you would get with a larger, rectangular cooler (and the usual amount of grain for a 5-6 gallon batch) is desirable or even mandatory with this kind of tun. Have any of you seen the bottom of Byron Burch's tun or read a description? If so, how much tubing and how many slots would you guestimate it has? I'd greatly appreciate any words of wisdom about this. Remember "Ye Olde Batte"? She just called me on the phone. I was nearly speechless. She is in Chatanooga and will be bringing her "rig" this way over the weekend. I'll say "hi" for you all. She did call it a "rig". Could she have switched from mythology or whatever it was at that university in Canada to driving an 18 wheeler? If so it is most likely one of the few rigs around with a batch of mead aging in the back of the cab. - ---------- Pete Soper (soper at encore.com) +1 919 481 3730 Encore Computer Corp, 901 Kildaire Farm Rd, bldg D, Cary, NC 27511 USA Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #430, 06/01/90 ************************************* -------
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